Baby swaps and why? What's your theory?

[AlaskanSandman]

I've seen alot of theories surrounding baby swaps and possible parents. Is Jon the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna? Brandon and Ashara? or  Eddard and Ashara? And Is Daenerys the child of Aery's and Rhaella? Lyanna and Rhaegar? Eddard and Ashara? or Rhaegar and Ashara? You could also throw F/Aegon into as well.

 Each of these ideas has different implications and require different motives for hiding said child. The most obvious reason to me to hide Dany and Jon is that they are Targaryen. In which case you can debate who is Azor Ahai or are they both and so on, etc. I even like the idea the the union of Jon and Dany is the thing to happen, or to avoid. 

Yet, other theories have merit and even a nice unity of ideas. Like Ned and Ashara hooking up to produce Jon. The union of Ice (House Stark) and Fire (House Dayne), of whom may be the two ancient lines that came together the first time. (Which i have to say can still happen if Jon and Dany hook up anddd, R+L=J and Rhaegar+Ashara=Dany). There is definitely alot of evidence for Eddard and Ashara. Ive just never understood a reason to hide Jon then. Specially since both houses can attest to his birth and immunity from Roberts wrath. Heck, id think Robert would have a party for Eddard and pat him on the back. Same can be said for Brandon+Ashara= Jon. And yet again, same can be said for Eddard and Ashara= Daenerys (another idea i like). Why would Dany's life ever be in jeopardy if she was not a Targaryen? Dany's mystery i think is more intriguing than Jon's but i admit, Dany's mystery may not be her parents but something else. Im just on the wagon that it is her true past and parents. 

Ive seen alot of great links for all these theories but never really a good reason in any on why to hide the children or child. 

Im of the opinion Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, while Daenery's is the child of Rhaegar and Ashara Dayne, while F/aegon is a Blackfyre plan of Illyrios that Varys is helping with but probably not Varys's sole plan. Hence Jon and Dany are both Targ's and why they're hunted.

What's your ideas on motives though? Who's the parent's and what's their motive? If you wanna explain why you believe the parents you do, for the sake of others, absolutely. Im really curious on the motives happening after, and why the baby's were hidden or swapped. As i believe each theory of who is the parents hold merit, just lacking a motive to hide the child.

[Wild Bill]

I am new to the fandom, but a long time reader. So, I'm behind the curve on all the theories. But, R+L= J seems to be a given. The other theories seem... either half-baked or irrelevant. I sense a necessity for folk to think that a "genuine" child/infant be placed in some conspiracy - while there is no reason for that at all - a pretender that is acknowledged is just as good.

Excepting having three Targs to ride the dragons. But even then the implausibility of double and triple switches is... problematical. Not to mention when the possibilities are mentioned within GRRM's publishing timeline. IMO, anything implied after the first book is unlikely, and after the third book - impossible.

In fact, I think it would be a good project to align potential theories and prophecies vs what book they were introduced in. That might reduce a lot of them.

That said, we've been waiting six years for another book, and need something to occupy our thoughts (other than condemning the tv series)...

[3legImp]

Consider all 'special' babies from the rebellion.  Real Aegon, Ser Gregors watermelon smash (if not Real Aegon), Young Griff, Jon Snow, Edric Dayne, Meera Reed, and Dany the drag.       

 

GRRM introduced the switch of Aemon Steelsong and Monster to pollute our minds when trying to figure out the parentage of the  aforementioned babies.  

[AlaskanSandman]

11 hours ago, Wild Bill said:

I am new to the fandom, but a long time reader. So, I'm behind the curve on all the theories. But, R+L= J seems to be a given. The other theories seem... either half-baked or irrelevant. I sense a necessity for folk to think that a "genuine" child/infant be placed in some conspiracy - while there is no reason for that at all - a pretender that is acknowledged is just as good.

Excepting having three Targs to ride the dragons. But even then the implausibility of double and triple switches is... problematical. Not to mention when the possibilities are mentioned within GRRM's publishing timeline. IMO, anything implied after the first book is unlikely, and after the third book - impossible.

In fact, I think it would be a good project to align potential theories and prophecies vs what book they were introduced in. That might reduce a lot of them.

That said, we've been waiting six years for another book, and need something to occupy our thoughts (other than condemning the tv series)...

I dont remember where i heard it but supposedly GRRM said that everything you need to resolve the books is in the first book, or first 3. I cant remember. Everything after that is mostly world building. Though somethings mentioned late were still always planned, such as the Blackfyre rebellion. 

That being said, what i believe can mostly be found in the first 3 books, 2 or even one. Just more details become available in the 2nd and 3rd books, such as Rhaegars motive. 

I tend to agree myself with Jon being the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. BUT, i differ from alot because i think Daenerys is the child of Rhaegar and Ashara Dayne. Pretty much as per the first book. Cersei's claim against Eddard about stealing Ashara Dayne's child jumped out at me the first time i read it. Since i believe Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, it clears up certain other things i believe, such as Ashara, her role, and the dishonoring of Harrenhal. Which i dont think is rape, and honestly surprised by that theory given the limited description of event's given. 

So book 1. Jon quick notes.

*Hints that Rhaegar was a decent man who didn't visit brothels, and Robert was a pig.

*Lyanna's comment to Eddard about Robert being a pig and not likely to change. 

*Jon looks like Arya, who looks like Lyanna. 

*Tower of Joy and bed of Blood regarding Lyanna, already suspected.

Book 1 Dany.

*Dany can speak Valyrian and Viserys never does, even when trying to speak in secret from the Dothraki.

*Scents and smells and things that remind Dany of home do not for Viserys.

*Ashara Dayne mentioned to have had a child taken from her.

*Ashara Dayne has purple eyes. 

*House Dayne has Dawn, which, if not going to Jon who isn't a Dayne must be going to some one. 

*Who was Ashara Daynes child??

*Eddards rage over assassination attempt of Dany by small council of which he is unable to stop at any point leading up to his death.

*Eddards promise me bit, and later his thoughts of broken promises. Jon is safe so, what broken promise? 

Now these are just a few for each that steadily led me down this path. Some things pointed out after my first reading. Eddards thought's are the biggest pain as he seldom thinks of Jon and even less of Dany. The only time Ashara Dayne is brought up in his presence while we're in his pov chapter, doesn't even get a stutter, eye brow bat, or anything from Eddard toward Cersei, other than a calm warning to remove her children less Roberts Wrath finds them. Which fits as to why Dany and Jon are hunted, they're both half Targaryens. Jon taken north as he is the easiest to hide, and Dany later passed off as Rhaella's still born child. As Dany will be hunted whether she is Aery's child by Rhaella, or Rhaegar's with Ashara Dayne. Either way, she's hunted. Passed off as Viserys's little sister is perfect as she doesn't impede on Viserys's claim on the Throne, in fact, it actually helps it. Viserys may very well know who she is and that's why he abuses her, jealousy. And as he witnesses her slowly gaining power and becoming more regal, he loses it. Since he wanted to use her to get an army, being rid of her and her claim, and gaining the power he needs to attack Westeros.

Book 2 just kind of added more by giving Rhaegar a reason for hooking up with all these women. Elia Martel gives birth to Aegon and Rhaegar claims that there must be another, the dragon always has three heads. Now for most, this is where it ends. Rhaegar has his motive for hooking up with Lyanna. Yet, Rhaegar looks up at Dany as he say's it, and even Dany can't be sure to whom he's speaking. This alwayss stuck me as Ashara Dayne was a lady in waiting to Elia Martell and would have likely been present at the birth of Aegon. Then it struck me, that Dany was looking out of Ashara Dayne's eyes, her mothers eyes, and that Rhaegar was talking to Ashara Dayne. Who up till the Tourney of Harrenhal was likely gonna hook up with Ashara Dayne to produce said 3rd child. So what happened?

Well that's where the last pieces fell in with the last couple of books with Barristan's account of Ashara being dishonored and having a still born child, and that Ashara Dayne looks like Dany and that he feels as though he's looking at Ashara's daughter. Then in the account by Jojen and Meera Reed about Harrenhal. Also that Elia could no longer have kids after Aegon.

So, everything is in plan, Harrenhal is set, Rhaegar is gonna meet with high lords and arrange the fall of his father, and produce the 3rd head of the Dragon with Ashara Dayne. But then, Howland Reed changed everything, and caused Rhaegar to meet Lyanna Stark, whom he crowned Queen of Love and Beauty, in stead of Ashara Dayne, Dishonoring her. No rape, sorry folks. She turned to Eddard Stark who may have been smitten but was likely a good talker and good guy. Whether sex happened is irrelevant as they dont have kids. How do i know this is the dishonoring? Because Barristan cluues us in when he suggest that if he had won against Rhaegar crowned Ashara instead, would she have turned to him rather than Stark. Implying these events all happened after Rhaegar won. 

Yet, Arthur Dayne is Rhaegars best friend and along for the entire ride. Kidnapping Lyanna, protecting her and Jon at the Tower of Joy up to his death. That's some staunch loyalty from a guy who's sister was just dishonored by Rhaegar. So why? One, Rhaegar made good on it when he returned to King's Landing, hence Dany's age gap from Jon. Two, Arthur bears Dawn and may well be aware of the prince that was promised prophecy. 

One of the suggested reason's of Ashara's suicide was the loss of the man who had dishonored he at Harrenhal. Butttttt wait...... Eddard still lives. Brandon doesnt, but Brandon died way to early to be Dany's parents. So who dishonored her that died. Rhaegar, who unknown to others. Honored her with a child after all.

Dany see's her self as Rhaegar constantly too which helps reinforce this idea to me. 

To me it's that simple and doesn't require any reaching of ideas not already presented with in the books. Though i could very well be wrong. Ive yet to see any credible evidence to convince me otherwise. \

Note. - After thought but the t.v. show is leading me further. As prior to the show showing Dany and Jon hooking up and Tyrion actor saying that it has bad implications. As my theory would make Jon a Stark, and Dany a Dayne. Two ancient Houses with ancient swords bridged by House Targaryen. Dany and Jon hooking up finally brings House Dayne and Stark together for the first time likely since they spit during the Long Night. This union between the 2 may be a bad thing and maybe tied to the Others. Or its the Great Hero every one wants. Im not sure but i think it'll end with a dark twist. 

[Seams]

This topic was part of a "crackpot" pro / con discussion in the recent $10,000 contest for GoT debates:

Just about every Game of Thrones baby was switched at birth.

 

[John Suburbs]

In times of great geo-political turmoil, it isn't unusual for highborns or the bastards of highborns to take secret identities. Just look at all the ones that arose from the Wot5K:

Arya: Arry, Weasel, Nan, No One, Cat of the Canals, Mercy...

Sansa: Alayne

Tyrion: Hugor Hill

Ramsey: Reek

Theon: Reek

Mance's baby: Gilly's baby, and vice versa

Varys: Rugen

Bran and Rickon: the miller's boys

Sarella: Alleras

Until all the dust has settled, your real name can get you killed. So you adopt a fake one.

[Lewyn Martell]

The babies are central to ASOIAF.

Running through them, my thoughts are as follows:

Jon Snow: Must have one Stark parent, i.e. Lyanna, Brandon or Ned.

Aegon/Young Griff: Is either son of Rhaegar and Elia or a complete outsider. I lean very much towards him being a complete outsider, i.e. fAegon. He is modelled on real world pretenders Lambert Simnel and Perkin Warbeck who fronted rebellions against Henry VII in the years after the Wars of the Roses.

Daenarys: Is she really the child of Rhaella and Aerys?  There are a number of reasons to doubt it: Rhaella was 40 and had numerous miscarriages, stillbirths and infant deaths. Daenarys was born nine moons after Rhaella left King's Landing. The duration of a normal pregnancy is ten moons from the last menstrual period of the mother. There must be some doubt as to whether Rhaella was ever pregnant at all. Rhaella died giving birth to Daenarys - who acted as her wet nurse during the first few days of her life (and the next year or so) - it would have had to have been a woman from Dragonstone. There's also the issue of Daenarys' inconsistent childhood memories - the house with the red door and the lemon tree. Daenarys could be some random Lyseni orphan (which possibility GRRM teases in the scene of Tyrion and Jorah in the brothel in Volantis) or, alternatively, she could be the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna or someone else. If she is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna why would Sir Willem Darry lie about it and say she is Viserys's sister - because as the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna there is an open question as to whether she or Viserys has a better claim to the Iron Throne whereas if she is Viserys's sister his claim is clearly better than hers. I do think the random Lyseni orphan outcome would be very characteristically GRRM.

Alfie Allen, who plays Theon on GoT, said the following in an interview about asking GRRM who Jon Snow's real parents are:

Quote

You know, I asked him about who Jon Snow's real parents were, and he told me. I can't say who, but I can tell you that it involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation. It will all come to fruition eventually. The whole thing with all the fight over proper succession is partly inspired by the War of the Roses in the late 1400s, and back then, to ensure pedigree, the monarchies were kind of inbred. It's definitely fucked up, but it definitely happened back then, so that's why there's incest with the Targaryen line. It's toned down, though.

To me, the key questions on this are:

(1)  Was Ashara Dayne pregnant (as related in Barristan Selmy's internal thoughts)?

(2)  If so, who was the father of her child?

(3)  Was Ashara Dayne's child really stillborn (as related in Barristan Selmy's internal thoughts)?

(4)  Why did Ashara Dayne kill herself or disappear?

(5)  Why do the Daynes hold Ned in such high regard (as related to Arya by Edric Dayne) even though Ashara Dayne killed herself/disappeared?

(6)  What is the danger that Jon presents to Cat and her children?  Or, to put it another way, why would Ned not just tell Cat that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's child if that is the case.

(7)  Did GRRM screw with Dan and Dave in order to protect his novels from their TV dramatisation?

Quote

 

In a Q&A in 2013, the story was told of how the three of them sat down for a lunch that was eventually dragged into a five hour meeting. Martin recounted, "I did ask them a few pointed question to determine whether they had actually read the books, and they gave me the right answers."

When asked to specify what they were grilled on, Weiss elaborated:

He asked us, “Who is Jon Snow’s mother?”  We had discussed it before, and we gave a shocking answer.  At that point, George didn’t actually say whether or not we were right or wrong, but his smile was his tell.  We knew we had passed the Wonka test, at that point.

This is an impressive anecdote, given that a many readers of the books typically miss the hints given for Jon's true parentage, and it's unlikely that many casual show watchers would have a slightest idea of the truth.

 

We now know that the answer that Dan and Dave gave because that has been reflected in GoT this season. However, note that GRRM didn't say whether they were right or wrong; he just smiled. Although the words "at that point" imply that George did confirm the position expressly subsequently, was that really the case?

How much has GRRM told Dan and Dave about what will happen?  In March 2014 Hollywood Reporter reported Dan and Dave as saying:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-showrunners-know-how-687589

Quote

Last year [i.e. 2013, which would have been after the screening of season 3 and during the making of season 4 of GoT] we went out to Santa Fe for a week to sit down with [Martin] and just talk through where things are going, because we don’t know if we are going to catch up and where exactly that would be," Benioff says in the April issue of Vanity Fair. "If you know the ending, then you can lay the groundwork for it. And so we want to know how everything ends. We want to be able to set things up. So we just sat down with him and literally went through every character.

To return to the questions I posted, some answers below:

(1)  Was Ashara Dayne pregnant (as related in Barristan Selmy's internal thoughts)? Answer: Yes - Barristan Selmy was in King's Landing at the same time as Elia and is in no doubt about her pregnancy.

(2)  If so, who was the father of her child? Answer: We don't know - it could be Ned, it could be Brandon, it could be Rhaegar Targaryen, it could be someone else.

(3)  Was Ashara Dayne's child really stillborn (as related in Barristan Selmy's internal thoughts)? Answer: Possibly?

(4)  Why did Ashara Dayne kill herself or disappear? Answer: GRRM has confirmed that her body was never found. 

(5)  Why do the Daynes hold Ned in such high regard (as related to Arya by Edric Dayne) even though Ashara Dayne killed herself/disappeared?

(6)  What is the danger that Jon presents to Cat and her children?  Or, to put it another way, why would Ned not just tell Cat that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's child if that is the case. Answer: The danger that Jon presents is being a legitimate child of Brandon Stark or Ned Stark?  This is ultimately about the age of Jon relative to Robb.  If Robb is older than Jon then Jon could not be Brandon Stark's son and would have been conceived after Ned was already married to Cat and could not be legitimate. However, if Jon is older than Robb then Jon could have been fathered by Brandon Stark on Ashara after a secret wedding between them or could have been fathered by Ned Stark on Ashara after a secret wedding between them and fathered prior to Ned's wedding to Cat. 

(7)  Did GRRM screw with Dan and Dave in order to protect his novels from their TV dramatisation? Answer: Should we accept what GoT shows because that is clearly what Dan and Dave believe?  Unless GRRM is screwing with Dan and Dave then we have to accept that.  However, I believe that GRRM is or was screwing with them.  I think that GRRM very deliberately led them to think that they were right.  He could always correct them later if he wanted to - but, after season 4 he decided to cease involvement with GoT, being unhappy in particular with the Talisa/Robb storyline. It's very obvious that Dan and Dave have only the sketchiest idea what is happening with the characters and are just rushing to bring things to an end. I think GRRM is going to enjoy having the last laugh on them.

 

[Kytheros]

The only reason to hide Jon's identity and parentage is because he's Rhaegar and Lyanna's. If Rhaegar and Lyanna had more than one child, ie one of the R+L=twins theories, Ned would have taken and claimed all of them as his, just as he did with Jon - he wouldn't have given away one of his nieces/nephews away to someone else to raise under a different name.

If Daenerys isn't Aerys and Rhaella's child, there's absolutely no reason to claim that she is, no matter who she actually is - she would be safer under her true identity, or under almost any other false identity.

If, hypothetically, there was a Rhaegar and Ashara child, said child could easily, and safely, remain with House Dayne as a child (bastard or otherwise) of House Dayne, no matter his or her appearance.

If there's a Ned+Ashara baby, there's no reason to do a babyswap, and the child can remain safely with House Dayne, acknowledged by Ned or not, or even be claimed by Ned, although that would probably complicate Ned's claiming of Jon.

If there's a Brandon+Ashara baby, there's no reason to hide the child's existence or identity, far less do a babyswap.

 

Daenerys is truly Daenerys Targaryen, trueborn daughter of Aerys and Rhaella. She may well be confused/misinformed about where and when she spent some of her earliest years, but she truly is who she (and everybody else) thinks she is.

Jon is truly the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. He may or may not be a trueborn son, although he most likely is, even if it's via a bigamous marriage or decree of legitimization, whether or not his legitimacy can be proven. Rhaegar and Lyanna may or may not have been in love, or driven by prophecy, or some other motivating factor(s).

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 9/3/2017 at 9:15 AM, 3legImp said:

Consider all 'special' babies from the rebellion.  Real Aegon, Ser Gregors watermelon smash (if not Real Aegon), Young Griff, Jon Snow, Edric Dayne, Meera Reed, and Dany the drag.       

 

GRRM introduced the switch of Aemon Steelsong and Monster to pollute our minds when trying to figure out the parentage of the  aforementioned babies.  

Edric Dayne wasn't born until three or four years AFTER the rebellion.

GRRM introduced the switch of Aemon and Monster as post-shadowing proving that Varys' swap is possible.

[Damon_Tor]

Weird that with all the baby swapping that people seem willing to entertain the idea that Rhaego is alive is so fringe.

[Lewyn Martell]

6 hours ago, Kytheros said:

If Daenerys isn't Aerys and Rhaella's child, there's absolutely no reason to claim that she is, no matter who she actually is - she would be safer under her true identity, or under almost any other false identity.

Two good reasons:

(1)  Being Rhaegar's (only) daughter is different from being Aerys' younger daughter. Targaryen succession in such a case has never been fixed and a similar situation is what led to the (first) Dance of Dragons. Viserys has EVERY interest in having Dany believe she is his younger sister rather than the child of his older brother.

(2)  To claim that Dany is Rhaegar's daughter seems far-fetched and remote. How could one even proof that Rhaegar fathered her when he is dead. It is much more plausible and believable to say that Dany is Rhaella's daughter. Of course Rhaella is dead also but maternity is certain whereas paternity is not. Regarding the claim that Rhaella was pregnant on Dragonstone, gave birth and died in childbirth we have only the words of whomever was on Dragonstone with them - principally Sir Willem Darry.

I think there is a chance that it will turn out that Dany is some Lyseni baby that Sir Willem Darry acquired in order to be traded for support for Viserys's claim to the Iron Throne. It will turn out that Dany has zero Targaryen blood in her. 

[Kytheros]

12 minutes ago, Lewyn Martell said:

Two good reasons:

(1)  Being Rhaegar's (only) daughter is different from being Aerys' younger daughter. Targaryen succession in such a case has never been fixed and a similar situation is what led to the (first) Dance of Dragons. Viserys has EVERY interest in having Dany believe she is his younger sister rather than the child of his older brother.

(2)  To claim that Dany is Rhaegar's daughter seems far-fetched and remote. How could one even proof that Rhaegar fathered her when he is dead. It is much more plausible and believable to say that Dany is Rhaella's daughter. Of course Rhaella is dead also but maternity is certain whereas paternity is not. Regarding the claim that Rhaella was pregnant on Dragonstone, gave birth and died in childbirth we have only the words of whomever was on Dragonstone with them - principally Sir Willem Darry.

I think there is a chance that it will turn out that Dany is some Lyseni baby that Sir Willem Darry acquired in order to be traded for support for Viserys's claim to the Iron Throne. It will turn out that Dany has zero Targaryen blood in her. 

Rhaegar's daughter by who?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

52 minutes ago, Lewyn Martell said:

Two good reasons:

(1)  Being Rhaegar's (only) daughter is different from being Aerys' younger daughter. Targaryen succession in such a case has never been fixed and a similar situation is what led to the (first) Dance of Dragons. Viserys has EVERY interest in having Dany believe she is his younger sister rather than the child of his older brother.

(2)  To claim that Dany is Rhaegar's daughter seems far-fetched and remote. How could one even proof that Rhaegar fathered her when he is dead. It is much more plausible and believable to say that Dany is Rhaella's daughter. Of course Rhaella is dead also but maternity is certain whereas paternity is not. Regarding the claim that Rhaella was pregnant on Dragonstone, gave birth and died in childbirth we have only the words of whomever was on Dragonstone with them - principally Sir Willem Darry.

I think there is a chance that it will turn out that Dany is some Lyseni baby that Sir Willem Darry acquired in order to be traded for support for Viserys's claim to the Iron Throne. It will turn out that Dany has zero Targaryen blood in her. 

There is no foreshadowing for such a thing. Nor does it make sense. To get support from Lys or from some Lyseni, Ser Willem would have to give them something, not take in a kid. The arrangement would have to be made before Darry leaves Dragonstone. Viserys is by no means the brightest crayon in the box, but he'd notice a baby that wasn't on the boat when they fled.

[Wild Bill]

I think we should consider the obvious, incestuous, relationship between Eddard Stark and his older brother, Brandon... I don;t even want to get into Lyanna...

And that said consequences in the plot arise...

Sorry, a bit of whimsy.

[AlaskanSandman]

On 9/3/2017 at 9:05 AM, Seams said:

This topic was part of a "crackpot" pro / con discussion in the recent $10,000 contest for GoT debates:

Just about every Game of Thrones baby was switched at birth.

 

How does it work? i Couldnt see or figure out how it works or where you post to or what not. Is it still open?

 

[AlaskanSandman]

On 9/3/2017 at 9:21 AM, John Suburbs said:

In times of great geo-political turmoil, it isn't unusual for highborns or the bastards of highborns to take secret identities. Just look at all the ones that arose from the Wot5K:

Arya: Arry, Weasel, Nan, No One, Cat of the Canals, Mercy...

Sansa: Alayne

Tyrion: Hugor Hill

Ramsey: Reek

Theon: Reek

Mance's baby: Gilly's baby, and vice versa

Varys: Rugen

Bran and Rickon: the miller's boys

Sarella: Alleras

Until all the dust has settled, your real name can get you killed. So you adopt a fake one.

That is at least a simple workable idea

 

[AlaskanSandman]

On 9/3/2017 at 11:45 AM, Lewyn Martell said:

The babies are central to ASOIAF.

Running through them, my thoughts are as follows:

Jon Snow: Must have one Stark parent, i.e. Lyanna, Brandon or Ned. 

Yes but everytime i see Brandon's name i dont get it. To me, Brandon seems to have died at least within the first 6 months of 282. Jon was born in 283, likely mid to later year. So its just to far after Brandons death to father anyone. That's just me though and how i take it. 

Aegon/Young Griff: Is either son of Rhaegar and Elia or a complete outsider. I lean very much towards him being a complete outsider, i.e. fAegon. He is modelled on real world pretenders Lambert Simnel and Perkin Warbeck who fronted rebellions against Henry VII in the years after the Wars of the Roses. 

Daenarys: Is she really the child of Rhaella and Aerys?  There are a number of reasons to doubt it: Rhaella was 40 and had numerous miscarriages, stillbirths and infant deaths. Daenarys was born nine moons after Rhaella left King's Landing. The duration of a normal pregnancy is ten moons from the last menstrual period of the mother. There must be some doubt as to whether Rhaella was ever pregnant at all. Rhaella died giving birth to Daenarys - who acted as her wet nurse during the first few days of her life (and the next year or so) - it would have had to have been a woman from Dragonstone. There's also the issue of Daenarys' inconsistent childhood memories - the house with the red door and the lemon tree. Daenarys could be some random Lyseni orphan (which possibility GRRM teases in the scene of Tyrion and Jorah in the brothel in Volantis) or, alternatively, she could be the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna or someone else. If she is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna why would Sir Willem Darry lie about it and say she is Viserys's sister - because as the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna there is an open question as to whether she or Viserys has a better claim to the Iron Throne whereas if she is Viserys's sister his claim is clearly better than hers. I do think the random Lyseni orphan outcome would be very characteristically GRRM. 

Well there is all of Rhaella's still births, her age, and the time gaps inbetween births. Id say Rhaella's Daenerys died with her. Dany as ill call the character from our book. Thinks of Aerys 5 times in all of her chapters and Rhaegar like 44 times, even seeing herself as Rhaegar. Reminds me of when Luke see's himself as Vader, only to discover he's Vader's son.   

As Far as memories. Aside from Lemon Gate? There the born on Dragonstone during a summer storm, though the books tell us autumn is when it storms the most in the Narrow Sea and Winter Storms are the worse. Viserys claims they left at night from K.L. to Dragonstone yet Jamie recalls Rhaella leaving in the morning. Not just is Dany's memories bad, but the memories fed to her by Viserys are bad. 

As far as passing Dany off as Daenerys. Viserys and Willem could have been in on it. Dany as the child of Ashara and Rhaegar has a better claim than Viserys, but Dany as Daenerys, youner sister to Viserys to sell off as a pawn, works much better. 

Alfie Allen, who plays Theon on GoT, said the following in an interview about asking GRRM who Jon Snow's real parents are:

To me, the key questions on this are:

(1)  Was Ashara Dayne pregnant (as related in Barristan Selmy's internal thoughts)?

(2)  If so, who was the father of her child?

(3)  Was Ashara Dayne's child really stillborn (as related in Barristan Selmy's internal thoughts)?

(4)  Why did Ashara Dayne kill herself or disappear?

(5)  Why do the Daynes hold Ned in such high regard (as related to Arya by Edric Dayne) even though Ashara Dayne killed herself/disappeared? My theory actually can answer all of these questions, cause i agree that they are the questions to ask.

(6)  What is the danger that Jon presents to Cat and her children?  Or, to put it another way, why would Ned not just tell Cat that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's child if that is the case. None, other than the ones Cat perceives. She's worried about her kids claim to the throne. You dont tell her because you made a promise not to, and Cat probably isn't trust worthy any ways. If it spread at alllllll, Eddard would have failed. He started the lie down in Dorne, perpetuated by Edric to Arya, and retold by Eddard to Robert. Wylla is Jon's mother and Eddard the father.  This is why House Dayne has respect for Eddard, among other things like returning Dawn. Eddard kept a secret for them as they're keeping Eddards secret about Jon. They helped each other out in a baby pinch. IMO

(7)  Did GRRM screw with Dan and Dave in order to protect his novels from their TV dramatisation?

We now know that the answer that Dan and Dave gave because that has been reflected in GoT this season. However, note that GRRM didn't say whether they were right or wrong; he just smiled. Although the words "at that point" imply that George did confirm the position expressly subsequently, was that really the case?

How much has GRRM told Dan and Dave about what will happen?  In March 2014 Hollywood Reporter reported Dan and Dave as saying:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-showrunners-know-how-687589

To return to the questions I posted, some answers below:

(1)  Was Ashara Dayne pregnant (as related in Barristan Selmy's internal thoughts)? Answer: Yes - Barristan Selmy was in King's Landing at the same time as Elia and is in no doubt about her pregnancy.

(2)  If so, who was the father of her child? Answer: We don't know - it could be Ned, it could be Brandon, it could be Rhaegar Targaryen, it could be someone else.

(3)  Was Ashara Dayne's child really stillborn (as related in Barristan Selmy's internal thoughts)? Answer: Possibly?

(4)  Why did Ashara Dayne kill herself or disappear? Answer: GRRM has confirmed that her body was never found. 

(5)  Why do the Daynes hold Ned in such high regard (as related to Arya by Edric Dayne) even though Ashara Dayne killed herself/disappeared?

(6)  What is the danger that Jon presents to Cat and her children?  Or, to put it another way, why would Ned not just tell Cat that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's child if that is the case. Answer: The danger that Jon presents is being a legitimate child of Brandon Stark or Ned Stark?  This is ultimately about the age of Jon relative to Robb.  If Robb is older than Jon then Jon could not be Brandon Stark's son and would have been conceived after Ned was already married to Cat and could not be legitimate. However, if Jon is older than Robb then Jon could have been fathered by Brandon Stark on Ashara after a secret wedding between them or could have been fathered by Ned Stark on Ashara after a secret wedding between them and fathered prior to Ned's wedding to Cat. 

(7)  Did GRRM screw with Dan and Dave in order to protect his novels from their TV dramatisation? Answer: Should we accept what GoT shows because that is clearly what Dan and Dave believe?  Unless GRRM is screwing with Dan and Dave then we have to accept that.  However, I believe that GRRM is or was screwing with them.  I think that GRRM very deliberately led them to think that they were right.  He could always correct them later if he wanted to - but, after season 4 he decided to cease involvement with GoT, being unhappy in particular with the Talisa/Robb storyline. It's very obvious that Dan and Dave have only the sketchiest idea what is happening with the characters and are just rushing to bring things to an end. I think GRRM is going to enjoy having the last laugh on them.

 

 

[AlaskanSandman]

14 hours ago, Kytheros said:

The only reason to hide Jon's identity and parentage is because he's Rhaegar and Lyanna's. If Rhaegar and Lyanna had more than one child, ie one of the R+L=twins theories, Ned would have taken and claimed all of them as his, just as he did with Jon - he wouldn't have given away one of his nieces/nephews away to someone else to raise under a different name.

If Daenerys isn't Aerys and Rhaella's child, there's absolutely no reason to claim that she is, no matter who she actually is - she would be safer under her true identity, or under almost any other false identity. 

I dont think so. If Dany is the child of Rhaegar and Ashara Dayne, then Dany's life is in danger from Robert. Ashara Dayne was lady in waiting to Elia Martel and at K.L. probably for most of the events and knew queen Rhaella. Heck, she may have even sailed to Dragonstone with Rhaella. Either way, as child of Rhaegar and Ashara Dayne, Dany's claim is actually stronger than Viserys's. Yet Dany is safest with Viserys who also is a hunted Targ. So Visery's or whom ever agrees to it, except that Dany has to pretend to be Daenerys who died at birth as to not interfere with Viserys''s claim to the throne. Eddard cant take Dany with Jon due to Dany looking like a Targ while Jon doesnt. Sooooo how does Eddard do it? Idk, maybe Viserys among many bad memories, messed up with Willem and 4 Loyal guards breaking in and smuggling Dany and Viserys out. Maybe it was the 5 northmen never returned from the Tower of Joy. William Dustin, Theo Wull, Ethan Glover, Mark Rywell, and Martyn Cassel. Maybe that's why Eddard couldnt just bag their bones and put them on Williams horse which he did bring home. Since they were not dead but actually smuggling Dany to safety with Viserys.

If, hypothetically, there was a Rhaegar and Ashara child, said child could easily, and safely, remain with House Dayne as a child (bastard or otherwise) of House Dayne, no matter his or her appearance. 

Not if Robert found out the father was Rhaegar, not a chance in Westeros. Them having silver hair sometimes would definitely help till the secret got out.

If there's a Ned+Ashara baby, there's no reason to do a babyswap, and the child can remain safely with House Dayne, acknowledged by Ned or not, or even be claimed by Ned, although that would probably complicate Ned's claiming of Jon. 

This I agree to, as the chances their kid would have silver hair would be slimmer. Plus, House Dayne and Eddard both could attest to the truth of it, to which i think Robert would probably throw a party for Eddard haha

If there's a Brandon+Ashara baby, there's no reason to hide the child's existence or identity, far less do a babyswap.

This i have the biggest problem with but i wont go into it hahah just that i doubt Brandon is any ones parent the most. Except maybe some random snow in the north of importance.

Daenerys is truly Daenerys Targaryen, trueborn daughter of Aerys and Rhaella. She may well be confused/misinformed about where and when she spent some of her earliest years, but she truly is who she (and everybody else) thinks she is.

Except all the evidence i think that says other wise. Like Aery's only comes up 5 times in Dany's Chapters, while Rhaegar pops up 44 times with Dany even seeing herself as Rhaegar. That seems like heavy for shadowing to me. All of Rhaella's still births? Viserys questioning and worried whether she looks Valyrian enough to convince Drogo and Illyrio having to reassure him. Dany can speak High Valyrian while Viserys doesnt seem to even be able to speak bastard Valyrian. Summer storms when Dany was born, yet told autumn storms are more frequent and winter ones the worst? Quiathes cryptic messages? A marriage pact between Viserys and Arianne that makes no mention of Dany? Dany can hatch dragon eggs where every Targ before her couldnt? and other things that just seriously call into question not just her past, but who she is to begin with. There is just literally toooo much i think to ignore. Could be wrong though! The show is def going that route though as they never even mentioned Ashara Dayne.

Jon is truly the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. He may or may not be a trueborn son, although he most likely is, even if it's via a bigamous marriage or decree of legitimization, whether or not his legitimacy can be proven. Rhaegar and Lyanna may or may not have been in love, or driven by prophecy, or some other motivating factor(s).

 

[AlaskanSandman]

8 hours ago, Lewyn Martell said:

Two good reasons:

(1)  Being Rhaegar's (only) daughter is different from being Aerys' younger daughter. Targaryen succession in such a case has never been fixed and a similar situation is what led to the (first) Dance of Dragons. Viserys has EVERY interest in having Dany believe she is his younger sister rather than the child of his older brother. Agreed!!

(2)  To claim that Dany is Rhaegar's daughter seems far-fetched and remote. How could one even proof that Rhaegar fathered her when he is dead. It is much more plausible and believable to say that Dany is Rhaella's daughter. Of course Rhaella is dead also but maternity is certain whereas paternity is not. Regarding the claim that Rhaella was pregnant on Dragonstone, gave birth and died in childbirth we have only the words of whomever was on Dragonstone with them - principally Sir Willem Darry. 

I think there is a chance that it will turn out that Dany is some Lyseni baby that Sir Willem Darry acquired in order to be traded for support for Viserys's claim to the Iron Throne. It will turn out that Dany has zero Targaryen blood in her. Ive pondered this haha this would just make me laugh so hard haha there is evidence for it. It just leaves Ashara Dayne out of the mix and the Dishonoring and who in the current story should receive Dawn. 

 

[Pearly]

8 hours ago, Lewyn Martell said:

I think there is a chance that it will turn out that Dany is some Lyseni baby that Sir Willem Darry acquired in order to be traded for support for Viserys's claim to the Iron Throne. It will turn out that Dany has zero Targaryen blood in her. 

 

I'm sorry but that doesn't make sense in light of the fact that she has heightened tolerance to heat, was able to resurrect the dragons (even if it was via blood magic), and subsequently bond with, and ride on the dragons. Given everything we know about the dragons and their connection to the Targaryans, I would imagine that Daenerys must have at least some Targaryan blood in her.

Overall, I don't see the purpose of having Daenerys being anyone except exactly who she is presented to be.