Baby swaps and why? What's your theory?

[AlaskanSandman]

3 hours ago, Pearly said:

I think you may be overestimating the comfort - and practicality - of silk

Rich people wore silk because it clearly indicated they didn't need to work/toil and that their lives were sedentary. Silks - with the Dothraki lifestyle - would be extremely uncomfortable and impractical and therefore, even then wealthy Dothraki wore the leathers.

Perhaps more than anything, Daenerys' longings to run barefoot with the children demonstrate how much she yearns for a simple lifestyle. How much she wants to have a family and to belong to something - at least, that was how I understood in my readings. With the Dothraki, she finally began to feel part of something and that's why she embraced the lifestyle - because despite being sold to Khal Drogo, his Khalassar embraced her as their Khaleesi. For the first time in her life, she felt a part of something and therefore she embraced it with open arms. That's part of the tragedy of Khal Drogo's death, I think. Daenerys didn't just lose her son and her husband - but also the entire 'family' that gave her purpose, safety, and status. 

Hahaha maybe. ive never worn a silk toga in the heat my self so i couldnt say for certainty, but i do know leather gets hot

[Kytheros]

15 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

It makes perfect sense, whether you see it or not is irrelevant to me. It fits with account to from Jamie and Visery. Viserys and Rhaella left to dragon stone at night. Jamie saw some one else leave, hooded, in the morning. Meaning Ashara and Rhaella may have been on Dragonstone together. Meaning Ned sending the men wasn't about planting any body but simply getting Ashara out. 

They could easily have snuck in whether it was under Targaryen loyalist or not. Thats just silly. Think about what your saying. No small group of people can infiltrate anywhere? Really? Barristan Selmy did it single handedly at Duskendale. 

Prior to the mens arrival. Both women give birth. Rhaella's born still born but Ashara's born healthy. They put the child in the nursery. mean while Visery would be in his chambers. 

The 5 men break in, kill Darry. Take their armor and pretend to be Targ guards, or not. Then break into the nursery and take the only baby they find and Viserys to get them to safety. Viserys having no idea that his real sister died and that they mistakenly grabbed the wrong baby. 

From there they took the babies back to Dorne or Starfall explaining the Lemon Trees and Red Door. Now i still wouldnt have a guess at why they were put out of the House with the Red Door but that's a later event anyways. 

Im not saying its the definitive what happened but a speculation based on clues clearly given. Make of those clues what you want, but putting forward nothing results in nothing. 

And all your speculations about Brandon or Eddard and Ashara just make absolutely no sense, other than it's a nice thought with Ned. Really though, Brandon died way to soon to father anyone and Eddard was in the North marshalling forces and only couldve gotten a child on the Fisherman's daughter. So its a non starter and wishful thinking. Unless Ashara left Elia's side to go North to find Ned in all of this and have sex. That seems really stupid. No, no baby with Eddard or Brandon with Ashara would need to be hidden, but since it didn't happen. No worries. 

How though, would a secret Targ be safe in Starfall who looks just like a Targ? Once found out by Robert? Really? Who wouldv'e stopped Robert? Robert's wrath that even Eddard couldn't stop. Really? The text implies very heavily that Robert will kill any Targaryen he can get his hands on. Dorne and Starfall wouldn't be able to stop Robert. The only reason Dany was safe was that she was in Essos and harder to get to, and Jon Arryn was talking Robert down from it. So long as she stayed on the other end of the sea she was no threat till she sided with Drogo. Then Robert really was worried.

Infiltrating a city and the dungeons thereof is a completely different sort of challenge from infiltrating an island fortress with a fleet defending it and the royal nursery in said fortress - a fortress none of them have ever been to before. Also, why would this supposed team of Northmen care about extracting Viserys? If I understand correctly, they'd've been there solely to grab Ashara (and then her child).

 

Daynes have recurring physical appearance traits similar to that of the Targaryens/Valyrians. As such, any Targaryen-esque appearance would be attributed to the Dayne blood and those traits popping up. And who's going to be telling Robert about this kid anyways?

 

Absolute worst case scenario if Ned feels a need to stash a child somewhere? He turns to someone he can trust absolutely - Howland Reed, at Greywater Watch in the Neck, and keeps the child there.

 

Which babyswaps are you even arguing for anymore?

[AlaskanSandman]

30 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

Infiltrating a city and the dungeons thereof is a completely different sort of challenge from infiltrating an island fortress with a fleet defending it and the royal nursery in said fortress - a fortress none of them have ever been to before. Also, why would this supposed team of Northmen care about extracting Viserys? If I understand correctly, they'd've been there solely to grab Ashara (and then her child).

 

Daynes have recurring physical appearance traits similar to that of the Targaryens/Valyrians. As such, any Targaryen-esque appearance would be attributed to the Dayne blood and those traits popping up. And who's going to be telling Robert about this kid anyways?

 

Absolute worst case scenario if Ned feels a need to stash a child somewhere? He turns to someone he can trust absolutely - Howland Reed, at Greywater Watch in the Neck, and keeps the child there.

 

Which babyswaps are you even arguing for anymore?

Possibly. Duskendale still may have been more heavily guarded though is the thing to consider. Targaryen forces have just been destroyed, i would think it wouldnt be a very large garrison left to guard Rhaella. The fleet was also destroyed and the remaining men would be having to deal with this problem and Stannis's soon to arrive forces. As far as why take Viserys? Maybe Eddard requested it of his men specifically. Last time he saw Robert, he was pissed at Robert over the killing of Rhaenys and Aegon. Eddard may have been trying to deny Robert from killing them with out doing it out right to Roberts face. Just an idea though.

I agree that untill the secret possibly got out, the Daynes would be one of the best areas to hide her in. I just think that if the secret got out, Robert would not stop from killing her,  and Starfall is far to close for Robert to be dissuaded.

Now as far as Greywater Watch? That one i couldn't say. I mean Ned likely wasn't with the men, but he could've instructed them to take them to the Neck. Though maybe Howland wasn't ok with this? Idk why he didn't just stick Jon there too though. Save him self the head ache of a jealous Caitlyn. Jon would be perfectly safe too there so why not? There maybe something more there going on than we know? Maybe not though.  

Well im not trying to argue anything really. Just fleshing out differing ideas. I my self think that Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, Dany i think is more than likely the child of Rhaegar and Ashara, but think there's a slim chance that Aery's and Ashara are her parents. Either way she is a Targaryen and Dayne. While Jon is a Targ and a Stark. Ending wise, these two coming together is either the thing needed to happen or thing to avoid. Stark and Dayne finally uniting through House Targaryen. I my self am wresting with different scenarios of how this may have happened based on the clues in the text. 

I am open to the idea Dany is the child of Aerys and Rhaella, but it still doesn't explain what happened when she was young, why her memories dont fit, and what's up with Lemon Gate. It also leaves out Ashara Dayne, Dawn, and Starfall. 

Ultimately im interested in hearing any theories though as i may learn something new that helps me or changes my thoughts. I like to stay open minded but obviously lean more towards certain theories than others as my thoughts are already in line with said ideas.

Edit- Some theories i have hard times with, like the Fisherman's Daughter, Wylla, and Eddard or Brandon. I know they are popular though and still like to listen to good arguments for them. I am aware that Elio and Linda show interest in the Ashara and Eddard or even possibly Brandon and they are the go to people. So there is that

[Kytheros]

33 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Possibly. Duskendale still may have been more heavily guarded though is the thing to consider. Targaryen forces have just been destroyed, i would think it wouldnt be a very large garrison left to guard Rhaella. The fleet was also destroyed and the remaining men would be having to deal with this problem and Stannis's soon to arrive forces. As far as why take Viserys? Maybe Eddard requested it of his men specifically. Last time he saw Robert, he was pissed at Robert over the killing of Rhaenys and Aegon. Eddard may have been trying to deny Robert from killing them with out doing it out right to Roberts face. Just an idea though.

I agree that untill the secret possibly got out, the Daynes would be one of the best areas to hide her in. I just think that if the secret got out, Robert would not stop from killing her,  and Starfall is far to close for Robert to be dissuaded.

Now as far as Greywater Watch? That one i couldn't say. I mean Ned likely wasn't with the men, but he could've instructed them to take them to the Neck. Though maybe Howland wasn't ok with this? Idk why he didn't just stick Jon there too though. Save him self the head ache of a jealous Caitlyn. Jon would be perfectly safe too there so why not? There maybe something more there going on than we know? Maybe not though.  

Well im not trying to argue anything really. Just fleshing out differing ideas. I my self think that Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, Dany i think is more than likely the child of Rhaegar and Ashara, but think there's a slim chance that Aery's and Ashara are her parents. Either way she is a Targaryen and Dayne. While Jon is a Targ and a Stark. Ending wise, these two coming together is either the thing needed to happen or thing to avoid. Stark and Dayne finally uniting through House Targaryen. I my self am wresting with different scenarios of how this may have happened based on the clues in the text. 

I am open to the idea Dany is the child of Aerys and Rhaella, but it still doesn't explain what happened when she was young, why her memories dont fit, and what's up with Lemon Gate. It also leaves out Ashara Dayne, Dawn, and Starfall. 

Ultimately im interested in hearing any theories though as i may learn something new that helps me or changes my thoughts. I like to stay open minded but obviously lean more towards certain theories than others as my thoughts are already in line with said ideas.

Edit- Some theories i have hard times with, like the Fisherman's Daughter, Wylla, and Eddard or Brandon. I know they are popular though and still like to listen to good arguments for them. I am aware that Elio and Linda show interest in the Ashara and Eddard or even possibly Brandon and they are the go to people. So there is that

How is Robert going to find out that there's actually a secret Targaryen at Starfall?

 

Daenerys is the child of Aerys and Rhaella. Her memory errors are insufficient, both on their own and in light of all the supporting information, to posit that she's someone else. Daenerys cannot be the daughter of Ashara and Rhaegar or Aerys, otherwise she'd have been at Starfall, as a child/bastard of House Dayne, safe, rather than in Essos with a target on her back as a Targaryen.

Ashara, Dawn, the Daynes, and Starfall come into things, likely because Ashara told Ned where to find Lyanna. Also, with the original 5-year timeskip plan, Ned Dayne would likely have become the Sword of the Morning, and he's Jon Snow's milk-brother. Also, it's possible that there's someone at Starfall who can serve as a corroborating witness to Jon's parentage.

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, Kytheros said:

How is Robert going to find out that there's actually a secret Targaryen at Starfall?

 

Daenerys is the child of Aerys and Rhaella. Her memory errors are insufficient, both on their own and in light of all the supporting information, to posit that she's someone else. Daenerys cannot be the daughter of Ashara and Rhaegar or Aerys, otherwise she'd have been at Starfall, as a child/bastard of House Dayne, safe, rather than in Essos with a target on her back as a Targaryen.

Ashara, Dawn, the Daynes, and Starfall come into things, likely because Ashara told Ned where to find Lyanna. Also, with the original 5-year timeskip plan, Ned Dayne would likely have become the Sword of the Morning, and he's Jon Snow's milk-brother. Also, it's possible that there's someone at Starfall who can serve as a corroborating witness to Jon's parentage.

Varys, master of whispers? Little Finger, master of Whispers? Im sure there are some manners and scenarios that can be done up in a way to show how that can play out. If Ashara was with Rhaella theoretically on Dragonstone, then maybe the plan was to get them back and something went wrong instead?

At first Daenerys was safe though is Essos, that's the thing. Her and Viserys were perfectly safe from Robert and never in any danger from him, despite Viserys insisting there were knives around every corner. We know that the one hired to poison Dany was the first. What ever happened in Braavos, or Dorne, or where ever the Lemon Tree and Red Door is, is part of the puzzle. They were safe there untill either Darry died of his sickness, or he was killed and that's why the servants stole everything. Something is off with what happened there though and the servants putting Dany and Viserys out. Robbing them but leaving them their mothers crown, you know, just so every one knows these two are indeed the last two Targs. Illyrio maybe? He does mention years of planning.

It is possible he found out about Rhaegar and Lyanna from Ashara, he may have also found out at K.L. too. Both are possible. 

And Ned Dayne? Kid mentioned in ASOS? Late in the game to begin with to develop into such a meaningful character no? Especially since he hasn't popped up since. He's just gonna pop up suddenly bearing Dawn in the last two books? I just dont see it. Even Gerold Dayne i dont see amounting to anything so important. Just me though. The main characters are Arya, Bran, Jon, Tyrion, and Dany. The main plot all those years ago centered around them. Id venture it's one of them. Even F/aegon doesn't seem likely to amount to anything in the end based off the same thing. He's not one of the 5 main characters. If F/aegon was really Aegon, he'd be really important. Just me though.

Im sure some one at Starfall can attest to Jon's parents as they seem to be in on it and perpetuated the lie about Wylla to Edric, the same story that Ned tells Robert. Though it is interesting Edric still mentions that Ashara and Ned fell in love at Harrenhal, he still says Ned fathered Jon on Wylla. Now we know that Jon is actually the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna (Most people)a. So that leaves Dany as the possible love child between Eddard and Ashara Dayne. Which goes against her being the blood of the dragon, and a Targaryen. So it definitely poses an interesting dilemma of circumstances. Her being born after Jon would also mean Eddard would have to cheat on Cat and that seems unlikely, unlikely. Dany was conceived sometime around the Sack of K.L. landing though. So how does that work? Where were Eddard and Ashara Dayne when this happened? After Eddard arrived and discovered dead babies? Surely not at the Trident? Before that he was getting married. So at what point could Ned have fathered Dany on Ashara if she's not the parent of Jon? 

Unless simply, Eddard loved Ashara, but they never had a kid, and she never had any kid with anyone else and simply jumped to her death over the loss of her brother? Not for the loss of the man who dishonored her at Harrenhal? Not for a baby she just lost? Well a rape at Harrrenhal wouldnt result in a baby born in 283 or 284 for her to be still born and kill her self over. So what ever happened at Harrenhal wasn't rape. And as far as the man who did the dishonoring at Harrenhal? Well if she wasn't raped there then what was the dishonor? and who did it that died? Well Brandon died, but to soon to father any one, at least Dany or Jon. Or to have knocked her up closer to the time she killed her self. Eddard is still alive, so she didn't kill her self over Eddard. Barristan is alive so she didn't do it for him. The only person who died who could've dishonored her, and or got her with child at a later date to which she would kill her self over the loss of him and the child is Rhaegar and Dany. 

Edit- To follow through. So Eddard helps Ashara with this child with Rhaegar because of that love that is known that he has for her from Harrenhal.  

What happened at Harrenhal that was the dishonor? Rhaegar chose Lyanna over her. I think the o.g. plan was to have his third child with Ashara Dayne, but that changed after Howlands meddling and meeting Lyanna. 

Some how, either Rhaegar made good on things when he returned to K.L. or Aerys raped her. One way or another she was gotten with a Targ baby. As Joffery told Sansa though, i suppose it doesn't really matter which Lannister/Targaryen puts a child into you. 

[Seams]

14 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I don't recall her being in rags. Barefoot is fine. Any child can go barefoot. And let's not forget it's possible she was hidden in Dorne temporarily after Darry died and she and her brother had no place to go.

 

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Dany has desires to run barefoot in rags with the kids out side then later in the Dothraki grass lands she feels at home with her hair oil and braided with the scents of earth and grass under her feet. Its a lot of implied thoughts that Viserys often gets angered by.

If you want to explore secret identities, instead of just presenting plausible or logical points of plot lines, it might be fun and fruitful to examine the author's use of wordplay. He drops a lot of hints about hidden things using specific words in key places. A lot of those little descriptive flourishes or digressions into imagery, such as Dany's desire to wear rags, contain meaningful clues - if we could just sort them out.

On one level, Dany's desire to join the ragged children certainly expresses her desire to live as a child with freedom. But rags come up in interesting places and take on a deeper meaning. When I tried to puzzle out that meaning a year ago, I thought it had to do with desertion and castration / beheading through associations among ragged / dagger / dragged. (I also went off on an egg tangent, but I doubt that that's correct - unless we could sort out Dany hatching the dragon eggs with her wistful longing for ragged things.) But I would not be surprised if "dragon" and even "Rhaegar" are also part of the wordplay.

Dany could hear the singing of the red priests as they lit their night fires and the shouts of ragged children playing games beyond the walls of the estate. For a moment she wished she could be out there with them, barefoot and breathless and dressed in tatters, with no past and no future and no feast to attend at Khal Drogo's manse. (AGoT, Daenerys I)

I suspect it's particularly important that GRRM gives us this insight about Dany's wishes in her very first POV. It comes in the context of other symbolic words - singing, fire, children, games, walls, bare feet, breath, feast, a manse. But it's also interesting that Dany envisions herself in tatters instead of rags - we have a Tattered Prince later in the books, so you can guess that he symbolizes something that would help to decode this tattered / rag imagery in Dany's arc. (For what it's worth, "tatting" is the word to describe making lace. There is a lot of imagery in the books around Myrish Lace and spider webs and relate symbols.) A search on the word "ragged" in Dany's POVs also reveals that it is associated with Dany's attempt to clothe Viserys, the medical effort by Mirri Maaz Duur, the death of Drogo and the identity of Dany's khalasar after Drogo's death. Pretty important turning points in her arc. (I looked at only the first two books, but the word may take on additional associations in the subsequent books.)

Bringing this back to the baby-swap possibilities, in keeping with the OP, it's interesting that the "ragged" imagery in Dany's arc seems to be associated with bare breasts and the cut on Drogo's chest. (Notice that Mirri even goes into a carved chest to begin concocting her remedy.) Later we will see Kraznys cut the nipple off one of the Unsullied to demonstrate the stoicism of the soldiers. I suspect the baring of breasts and the destruction of nipples all connects with the breast milk, wet nurse, milk brothers motif - which includes (through the magic of puns) House Darry. It is no coincidence that Dany's early nurturing is done by a Darry. I haven't pinned down the meaning of the "nipples on a breastplate" remark, but I know it is linked to this motif, too. Maybe the cutting of Drogo's breast and the cutting of the Unsullied warrior's nipple are "coming of age" symbols to show that Dany is ready to take charge of her life and no longer needs breast milk.

Sewing and clothing are major symbols in the series, so you were right to examine the difference between the silks and leathers to help sort out Dany's identity. Also important is the fact that she usually decides what she will wear -chooses her own outfits - even though her handmaids help her to get dressed. She often leaves one breast bare. (Only later will she feel constrained and forced to wear the impractical tokar and shoes that are too small. These are the "floppy ears" she wears to fit in with the rabbits / hares who surround her.) Her attempt to clothe Viserys was actually a sort of power play that he refused to be part of - we see a man cloaking a woman at a wedding ceremony in Westeros to show that she becomes property of his House. Viserys refused to let Dany "cloak" him in Dothraki clothing. He insisted that Drogo give him a crown - perhaps a symbolic wedding that doesn't involve Dany. We saw how that turned out when Drogo defined crown in a way that Viserys didn't foresee. When Dany married Drogo, by contrast, she was not cloaked but was instead given an amazing horse. Her husband empowered her instead of clothing her. Similarly, Ilyrio gave Dany a chest of silk fabrics with the dragon eggs in it. The fabric could be used by her to make clothing of her own choosing. And we know that she was the one who figured out how to hatch the eggs. This gift was also empowering. Later, Ilyrio gives Tyrion a similar chest containing children's clothing. With help from Septa Lemore, He uses the clothing to sew himself a suit very much like a fool's motley.

Anyway. Hidden identities and baby swaps. There are lots of clues that could add up to strong evidence, if we can figure out how to read them.

 

[Nevets]

18 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

You already have Jon. Who is one baby who was swapped and hid.

Then you have F/aegon and whether he is real or not, either way, there's a swap and a baby being hid. 

It's really not that far out the realms of what the story has already established. 

Jon was not swapped.  He was taken at his mother's request by her brother and raised as the brother's child.  No substitution there.  And if Aegon is a fake, there was no substitution there either.  It's possible that he was swapped, but most posters seem to doubt it, hence the widely used term (f)Aegon.

The only baby swap we know occurred was Mance's and Gilly's baby, and that wasn't intended to remain secret for long.  Just long enough for him to get out of Melisandre's reach, which occurred when Sam and Gilly left Estwatch.  After that, secrecy was pointless.

Also, if you accept that Lemongate indicates that Daenerys is fake, then you have a swap of a child, not a baby, which is even harder to get away with.

10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

It makes perfect sense, whether you see it or not is irrelevant to me. It fits with account to from Jamie and Visery. Viserys and Rhaella left to dragon stone at night. Jamie saw some one else leave, hooded, in the morning. Meaning Ashara and Rhaella may have been on Dragonstone together. Meaning Ned sending the men wasn't about planting any body but simply getting Ashara out. 

Ashara wasn't at Dragonstone.  She was at Starfall, receiving her brother's sword from Ned, and subsequently throwing herself off a tower.  And we've been given no reason to doubt that story.  Only whether she actually died, as her body wasn't recovered.  But that's another mystery.  That she was at Starfall, not Dragonstone isn't really in doubt.  And given that Dragonstone was under siege by then, I don't see her traveling there subsequently.  

[AlaskanSandman]

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

Jon was not swapped.  He was taken at his mother's request by her brother and raised as the brother's child.  No substitution there.  And if Aegon is a fake, there was no substitution there either.  It's possible that he was swapped, but most posters seem to doubt it, hence the widely used term (f)Aegon.

The only baby swap we know occurred was Mance's and Gilly's baby, and that wasn't intended to remain secret for long.  Just long enough for him to get out of Melisandre's reach, which occurred when Sam and Gilly left Estwatch.  After that, secrecy was pointless.

Also, if you accept that Lemongate indicates that Daenerys is fake, then you have a swap of a child, not a baby, which is even harder to get away with.

Ashara wasn't at Dragonstone.  She was at Starfall, receiving her brother's sword from Ned, and subsequently throwing herself off a tower.  And we've been given no reason to doubt that story.  Only whether she actually died, as her body wasn't recovered.  But that's another mystery.  That she was at Starfall, not Dragonstone isn't really in doubt.  And given that Dragonstone was under siege by then, I don't see her traveling there subsequently.  

Swapped/posing as some one else, same dif i think but ok. Either way theres a couple babies under question as to who the parents are. Gilly's baby is a swap and i wasn't thinking about that, but that child's parents aren't under question.

Other than George specifically stating that Ashara wasn't "nailed down"  to Starfall, sure. Id believe you other wise. So if she wasn't nailed to Starfall then she could have traveled other places. Just simply died at Starfall supposedly. Though her body was never found, so where this story comes from is up for debate. 

[AlaskanSandman]

6 hours ago, Seams said:

 

If you want to explore secret identities, instead of just presenting plausible or logical points of plot lines, it might be fun and fruitful to examine the author's use of wordplay. He drops a lot of hints about hidden things using specific words in key places. A lot of those little descriptive flourishes or digressions into imagery, such as Dany's desire to wear rags, contain meaningful clues - if we could just sort them out.

On one level, Dany's desire to join the ragged children certainly expresses her desire to live as a child with freedom. But rags come up in interesting places and take on a deeper meaning. When I tried to puzzle out that meaning a year ago, I thought it had to do with desertion and castration / beheading through associations among ragged / dagger / dragged. (I also went off on an egg tangent, but I doubt that that's correct - unless we could sort out Dany hatching the dragon eggs with her wistful longing for ragged things.) But I would not be surprised if "dragon" and even "Rhaegar" are also part of the wordplay.

Dany could hear the singing of the red priests as they lit their night fires and the shouts of ragged children playing games beyond the walls of the estate. For a moment she wished she could be out there with them, barefoot and breathless and dressed in tatters, with no past and no future and no feast to attend at Khal Drogo's manse. (AGoT, Daenerys I)

I suspect it's particularly important that GRRM gives us this insight about Dany's wishes in her very first POV. It comes in the context of other symbolic words - singing, fire, children, games, walls, bare feet, breath, feast, a manse. But it's also interesting that Dany envisions herself in tatters instead of rags - we have a Tattered Prince later in the books, so you can guess that he symbolizes something that would help to decode this tattered / rag imagery in Dany's arc. (For what it's worth, "tatting" is the word to describe making lace. There is a lot of imagery in the books around Myrish Lace and spider webs and relate symbols.) A search on the word "ragged" in Dany's POVs also reveals that it is associated with Dany's attempt to clothe Viserys, the medical effort by Mirri Maaz Duur, the death of Drogo and the identity of Dany's khalasar after Drogo's death. Pretty important turning points in her arc. (I looked at only the first two books, but the word may take on additional associations in the subsequent books.)

Bringing this back to the baby-swap possibilities, in keeping with the OP, it's interesting that the "ragged" imagery in Dany's arc seems to be associated with bare breasts and the cut on Drogo's chest. (Notice that Mirri even goes into a carved chest to begin concocting her remedy.) Later we will see Kraznys cut the nipple off one of the Unsullied to demonstrate the stoicism of the soldiers. I suspect the baring of breasts and the destruction of nipples all connects with the breast milk, wet nurse, milk brothers motif - which includes (through the magic of puns) House Darry. It is no coincidence that Dany's early nurturing is done by a Darry. I haven't pinned down the meaning of the "nipples on a breastplate" remark, but I know it is linked to this motif, too. Maybe the cutting of Drogo's breast and the cutting of the Unsullied warrior's nipple are "coming of age" symbols to show that Dany is ready to take charge of her life and no longer needs breast milk.

Sewing and clothing are major symbols in the series, so you were right to examine the difference between the silks and leathers to help sort out Dany's identity. Also important is the fact that she usually decides what she will wear -chooses her own outfits - even though her handmaids help her to get dressed. She often leaves one breast bare. (Only later will she feel constrained and forced to wear the impractical tokar and shoes that are too small. These are the "floppy ears" she wears to fit in with the rabbits / hares who surround her.) Her attempt to clothe Viserys was actually a sort of power play that he refused to be part of - we see a man cloaking a woman at a wedding ceremony in Westeros to show that she becomes property of his House. Viserys refused to let Dany "cloak" him in Dothraki clothing. He insisted that Drogo give him a crown - perhaps a symbolic wedding that doesn't involve Dany. We saw how that turned out when Drogo defined crown in a way that Viserys didn't foresee. When Dany married Drogo, by contrast, she was not cloaked but was instead given an amazing horse. Her husband empowered her instead of clothing her. Similarly, Ilyrio gave Dany a chest of silk fabrics with the dragon eggs in it. The fabric could be used by her to make clothing of her own choosing. And we know that she was the one who figured out how to hatch the eggs. This gift was also empowering. Later, Ilyrio gives Tyrion a similar chest containing children's clothing. With help from Septa Lemore, He uses the clothing to sew himself a suit very much like a fool's motley.

Anyway. Hidden identities and baby swaps. There are lots of clues that could add up to strong evidence, if we can figure out how to read them.

 

I do notice Georges use of metaphors and word usage. Unfortunately these are more abstact clues that im not so good at hahah I like others for that like LML and his youtube channel and some others. If you have any great threads or insights though im totally down to check them out and read them. There is a lot of star symbolism associated to Dany which may hint to her Dayne origin. Again though, im bad at those interpretations.

[Lewyn Martell]

I don't accept R+L=J is certain at all.  In fact, we don't even know for certain that Lyanna was pregnant or gave birth in the Tower of Joy. 

About the only thing we can say for certain about Jon is that he has one Stark parent, i.e. either Lyanna as mother or Brandon or Ned as father.

A fruitful route of enquiry is to ask whether Ashara Dayne bore a living child (not stillborn) and is still living herself (not drowned in a suicide).  Working backwards, what caused Ashara's suicide: the killing of her brother Arthur Dayne or the death of her child.  The killing of her brother seems a remote possibility.  The death of her child is only a basis for suicide if her child died.  We know from Edric Dayne that the Dayne family hold Ned in high rather than low regard, which is hardly likely if he was responsible for her suicide either by killing Arthur Dayne or by fathering a child on her which was stillborn.  

Even if we accept Ashara Dayne's child was stillborn and she killed herself afterwards, there is still the question of who the father of her child was. Some mooted possibilities are (i) Ned, (ii) Brandon, (iii) Aerys and (iv) Rhaegar.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

40 minutes ago, Lewyn Martell said:

I don't accept R+L=J is certain at all.  In fact, we don't even know for certain that Lyanna was pregnant or gave birth in the Tower of Joy. 

About the only thing we can say for certain about Jon is that he has one Stark parent, i.e. either Lyanna as mother or Brandon or Ned as father.

A fruitful route of enquiry is to ask whether Ashara Dayne bore a living child (not stillborn) and is still living herself (not drowned in a suicide).  Working backwards, what caused Ashara's suicide: the killing of her brother Arthur Dayne or the death of her child.  The killing of her brother seems a remote possibility.  The death of her child is only a basis for suicide if her child died.  We know from Edric Dayne that the Dayne family hold Ned in high rather than low regard, which is hardly likely if he was responsible for her suicide either by killing Arthur Dayne or by fathering a child on her which was stillborn.  

Even if we accept Ashara Dayne's child was stillborn and she killed herself afterwards, there is still the question of who the father of her child was. Some mooted possibilities are (i) Ned, (ii) Brandon, (iii) Aerys and (iv) Rhaegar.

 

There is alot of people who still feel that way. My self, i think R+L=J. 

Who ever Jon's mother was, Eddard must have loved her fiercely. There's the set up of Lyanna with Rhaegar and being raped. It being love is of no difference. They had sex, and she died in a bed of Blood. Ned returned from the south with baby Jon. Who he says is of his blood. But Ned was too busy when Jon was conceived to father any kid. I could go on with the short notes, but we all know the story. The main point, is that when Jon is said to have been born, leads to the time he was conceived, as Eddard being busy in the North and Brandon dead. Only leaves Rhaegar.

As far as Ashara Dayne i agree. If we accept that Dany is who she thinks she is, then Ashara's child may have been still born. But there is no other character, especially main characters, who Ashara's daughter could have been. So to me, the only two options are Dany is who she thinks she is, or Ashara's child by some one, more than likely a Targaryen. If Dany is who she thinks she is, and Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then it leaves very little else for Ashara to play a part in, House Dayne, Dawn or any of them. And Edric Dayne doesnt come into play till ASOS and ret-conned into AGOT by him saying in ASOS that he was there at the Hands Tourney. So him being meant to wield Dawn all along seems off to me. Gerolds mentioned even later, and seems unworthy, so i doubt him. 

Marriage pact either happened in Braavos, or Dorne as Oberyn is connected and the Sea Lord of Braavos. Same thing with the Lemon Tree and Red Door. So Dorne is involved no matter what. What the Sea Lord of Braavos is doing involved in peculiar unless they're in Braavos, even then, it's peculiar. Cause then that means they were the guest of the Sea Lord and the Red Door and Lemon Tree are at his home. Darry died and the servants put them out. Stealing most everything but leaving them their crown and some money. 

Now, maybe the Sea Lord died and their was something else happening? We know Serio was a First Sword of Braavos, so maybe the Sea Lord he served died, and that's why he's not now? Makes me wonder who recommended him to Eddard. Eddard seems unattached to Serio and suggest Jory or some one else. May not be related but it's interesting. 

No matter who Dany's parents are though, what happened between Dorne and Braavos in her years after birth are a big part. Illyrio and Varys i suspect as counter parts interfering. Braavos is generally against dragons though, so why would they be supporting Daenerys and Viserys? I mean it could be a lie, but idk. Arya gets trained by Serio, then coincidentally meets a faceless man, then end up out there training to be one while the Faceless men have Jaquen on some mysterious mission after at Old Town. Is it related to Braavos's interest in supporting Dany and Viserys then? 

Edit- Forgot to mention weird Mirri Maz Dur who trained with Marwyn, who has Alleras/Sarella, daughter of Obery with him. Was she working for team Martell, or just about her own random business. She trys to heal Drogo to which he just takes it off and rubs mud in it. Was it real or poison? Then does her dark healing which leaves him Catatonic. But then again, she warned that no one must enter the tent, and then Jorah brings a birthing Dany into the tent. Did her magic just fail her, did they mess it up, or did she do it on purpose. She's seems indifferent or even spiteful to Drogo and her baby after though. Then sings as she's dying which may have been a spell. Do do what? Assist in the hatching of the dragons? or to keep Dany from burning that one time? Or was it just her death song? Mirri's more metal than any of us \m/

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 9/6/2017 at 1:59 PM, Nevets said:

Jon was not swapped.  He was taken at his mother's request by her brother and raised as the brother's child.  No substitution there.  And if Aegon is a fake, there was no substitution there either.  It's possible that he was swapped, but most posters seem to doubt it, hence the widely used term (f)Aegon.

<snip

Ashara wasn't at Dragonstone.  She was at Starfall, receiving her brother's sword from Ned, and subsequently throwing herself off a tower.  And we've been given no reason to doubt that story.  Only whether she actually died, as her body wasn't recovered.  But that's another mystery.  That she was at Starfall, not Dragonstone isn't really in doubt.  And given that Dragonstone was under siege by then, I don't see her traveling there subsequently.  

Most is overstating the case. The numbers are split pretty evenly among those who believe Aegon is real and those who believe he is fake. A minority of us have no strong belief and admit it could go either way. 

We know she was at Starfall, though free to come and go, during the war. Hence GRRM's comment about her not being nailed down. Of course there was a war going on so she pretty much only had freedom to move safely within Dorne.

We know she was of course also at Starfall, so we've heard from other characters, when Ned arrived with Dawn. I don't recall anything in the text that says she personally received the sword from Ned, though it's certainly possible if her big brother and/or father were still off fighting somewhere, or prisoners.

But, we do not know that she threw herself from that tower.

We have no suicide note. We have no witnesses. We have no first-hand accounts. We have no body. If they'd found a body (dead, mostly dead, alive, etc) then it would probably be easy to deduce that she'd jumped from the tower based on the injuries she sustained. If she did jump and survived, she still would have been badly injured. If there weren't rocks directly below the tower, there's still the impact of hitting the water from such a height, and in the shallows near the land you don't have much room for a good dive. If she survived the jump she would have to have been found and either returned to Starfall or nursed back to health, which means there would be rumors of her survival.

The red flags just keep piling up on this, not the least of which is the fact that no one questions the idea that she committed suicide.Seriously not one character in the story has suggested she was pushed. How is it possible that no one thought of that? Young, beautiful noble lady, descended from kings, the world at her feet, ends up dead after a visit from two of the enemy and no one suggests murder? 

When it comes to Ashara, the best source of information we have is a kid who wasn't even born yet, who heard it from his aunt who may not have been born or may have been in diapers at the time. GRRM has been extremely careful to make sure we don't get any information on this that's verified by someone who would know. It's not even a case of characters not remembering things right. They literally could not know anything except what they've been told. There's no way it isn't deliberate on the part of the author. And the best reason for keeping it such a secret is for Ashara to be alive. You don't just have a suicide with no body and then not follow up on it. Ashara Dayne is like Chekov's corpse. Either she or her body must show up before the end of the series.

If she didn't kill herself, she could have sneaked to Dragonstone, just squeaking in before the siege started or on a cloudy night during a lull. If people could get off Dragonstone to escape, someone could get on as well. There was always someone like Davos who would take the risk for the right price.

[AlaskanSandman]

For any one who doesn't like theories of interconnected myths that are all about the same ancient Hero, who may be reborn i.e. Dany and Jon, and the implications that could have on the story and any baby swaps that may have happened, that may also be tied to Azor Ahai reborn, should listen to Elio and Linda discuss even just some of it, since they worked with George, run this site and are pretty up on things even on their own. Even they hint and suggest that it may be possible with out actually going down the rabbit holes them selves in the video. It's enough for any one searching, to keep searching. It may just all be connected. They have other good video's too. They even show interest in Brandon and Ashara or Eddard and Ashara Dayne as parents of Jon. Not that i agree with it hahah but it's definitely worth checking out and listening too with open ears. Even the N+J=D or B+A=D.

[AlaskanSandman]

Though @Ran does also think there are many crazy theories as he say's in recent interviews hahaha Only one i heard listed was Blackstone theories but im curious what others