Makk Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 23 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said: Hips were a mistake but... If someone knew what Sybel was up to and was willing to sabotage her efforts, the girl could be pregnant. All it takes is switching out Mama's Special Anti-Fertility tea with regular tea or one that actually did have a fertility potion in it. Yes that is true, but if Jaime did speak to her, she would be showing at that stage. By the latest point of the writing (when Jon is stabbed) the baby would be due. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 34 minutes ago, Makk said: Yes that is true, but if Jaime did speak to her, she would be showing at that stage. By the latest point of the writing (when Jon is stabbed) the baby would be due. How many months along would she have been? Which month a first pregnancy starts showing can vary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makk Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 19 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said: How many months along would she have been? Which month a first pregnancy starts showing can vary. It can vary but it would normally be sooner especially for a slim first time mother. According to the most accepted timeline, the Red Wedding occurs at day 15, month 12, year 299. When Jaime talks to her it is just after day 10, month 5 year 300. Since Robb left Riverrun around day 15 month 11 year 299 she would be at least 6 months pregnant. And keep in mind she would be under extra scrutiny due to the consequences of what such a pregnancy would mean. I think it is extremely unlikely she is pregnant on the proviso that it was indeed her Jaime spoke with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 23 minutes ago, Makk said: It can vary but it would normally be sooner especially for a slim first time mother. According to the most accepted timeline, the Red Wedding occurs at day 15, month 12, year 299. When Jaime talks to her it is just after day 10, month 5 year 300. Since Robb left Riverrun around day 15 month 11 year 299 she would be at least 6 months pregnant. And keep in mind she would be under extra scrutiny due to the consequences of what such a pregnancy would mean. I think it is extremely unlikely she is pregnant on the proviso that it was indeed her Jaime spoke with. And the observation about her hips means she can't be wearing a loose gown either. Darn. Poor Jeyne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kytheros Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 Yeah ... 6 months seems like a pregnancy would be showing a bit too much to hide easily. On the other hand ... if she were pregnant, she probably would've realized it only after the Red Wedding. After the Red Wedding she'd've known she'd need to conceal the pregnancy from the Lannisters at almost any cost. If the Blackfish knew she was pregnant, it'd be risky for her mother to try to force an abortion, and so her mother and the rest of her family might be forced by circumstance into helping hide her pregnancy. If Jaime truly spoke to Jeyne Westerling-Stark, then she's almost certainly not pregnant. On the other hand, if Jeyne were pregnant, she, the Blackfish, and her family, would likely do their best to make sure that Jeyne was never seen by the Lannisters, including Jaime. I've heard that Jeyne's supposedly going to show up in the Winds prologue. I expect we'll be able to settle the question of whether or not she's pregnant definitively then. Unfortunately ... Winds is coming out who knows when. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livesundersink Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 13 hours ago, Dofs said: and Jaime's description of Jeyne was fixed in later editions. Not quite, i have a copy of the british edtion which was printed in 2011 and it features the narrow hips in her description Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dofs Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 2 hours ago, Livesundersink said: Not quite, i have a copy of the british edtion which was printed in 2011 and it features the narrow hips in her description The mistake was corrected later. Here is a screenshot: http://imgur.com/pYnqxeN I also personally saw the description removed in my friend's edition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livesundersink Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 21 minutes ago, Dofs said: The mistake was corrected later. Here is a screenshot: http://imgur.com/pYnqxeN I also personally saw the description removed in my friend's edition. is your friend's copy the american or british edition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dofs Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 16 minutes ago, Livesundersink said: is your friend's copy the american or british edition? I think British but I am not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livesundersink Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 23 minutes ago, Dofs said: I think British but I am not sure. This particular topic was mentioned a whole bunch of times in a thread regarding robb's will, i have come to believe that the british editions have the mentions of the hips and the american editions do not, i own a copy of the american editions as well but they are currently on loan to a friend so i will not be able to verify this just yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 Just now, Kytheros said: If Jaime truly spoke to Jeyne Westerling-Stark, then she's almost certainly not pregnant. On the other hand, if Jeyne were pregnant, she, the Blackfish, and her family, would likely do their best to make sure that Jeyne was never seen by the Lannisters, including Jaime. Doesn't the fact that Martin said the different descriptions we get from Cat and Jaime imply that Jaime did in fact speak w/ Jeyne? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 It wasn't just Jeyne's lying hips but also this bit... Quote The path pided where the statue of King Daeron the First sat astride his tall stone horse, his sword lifted toward Dorne. A seagull was perched on the Young Dragon's head, and two more on the blade. Sam took the left fork, which ran beside the river. At the Weeping Dock, he watched two acolytes help an old man into a boat for the short voyage to the Bloody Isle. A young mother climbed in after him, a babe not much older than Gilly's squalling in her arms. Beneath the dock, some cook's boys waded in the shallows, gathering frogs. A stream of pink-cheeked novices hurried by him toward the septry. I should have come here when I was their age, Sam thought. If I had run off and taken a false name, I could have disappeared amongst the other novices. Father could have pretended that Dickon was his only son. I doubt he would even have troubled to search for me, unless I took a mule to ride. Then he would have hunted me down, but only for the mule. Samwell V, Feast 45 The old man was thought to be the Blackfish; the young mother was thought to be the real Jeyne, the babe was thought to be Robb's son and true heir, and well, there were frogeaters too! Since that kind of detail is suspicious, but we assume that Jeyne could not have gotten pregnant, I think the baby is Theon's... Quote The Myraham was a fat-bellied southron merchanter up from Oldtown, carrying wine and cloth and seed to trade for iron ore. Her captain was a fat-bellied southron merchanter as well, ... ... Theon Greyjoy pushed her hand aside and climbed off the bunk. "My place is Pyke, and yours is on this ship." "I can't stay here now." He laced up his breeches. "Why not?" "My father," she told him. "Once you're gone, he'll punish me, milord. He'll call me names and hit me." Theon swept his cloak off its peg and over his shoulders. "Fathers are like that," he admitted as he pinned the folds with a silver clasp. "Tell him he should be pleased. As many times as I've fucked you, you're likely with child. It's not every man who has the honor of raising a king's bastard." She looked at him stupidly, so he left her there. Theon I, Clash As for correcting the mistake about Jeyne's lyin' hips, the George shoulda just slipped into Jaime's Dance chapter that the kingslayer digs his loads wide, with a whole lotta boom in back.Then, of course, we would know that Jeyne's good, child-bearing hips would have have looked narrow to Jaime's discriminating eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kytheros Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 7 hours ago, kissdbyfire said: Doesn't the fact that Martin said the different descriptions we get from Cat and Jaime imply that Jaime did in fact speak w/ Jeyne? Probably. Although if he truly intended the Westerling sisters to be close enough to believably pass for one another and for Jaime to have spoken with Jeyne's sister, not Jeyne herself, GRRM's comments likely have been much the same. That said, I would not give good odds on Jeyne being pregnant. I'm simply of the position that we can't be absolutely certain she isn't pregnant yet, although she almost certainly isn't pregnant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Ravens Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 NOT! Jeyne Westerling's pregnancy has NOT been confirmed by GRRM. Dear OP, please refrain from using such misleading thread titles in the future. 12 minutes ago, Kytheros said: That said, I would not give good odds on Jeyne being pregnant. I'm simply of the position that we can't be absolutely certain she isn't pregnant yet, although she almost certainly isn't pregnant. I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell's son Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 On 9/2/2017 at 8:02 PM, roosebolton36 said: Has it been confirmed by him? King Robb has no heir by Jeyne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 Just now, Kytheros said: Probably. Although if he truly intended the Westerling sisters to be close enough to believably pass for one another and for Jaime to have spoken with Jeyne's sister, not Jeyne herself, GRRM's comments likely have been much the same. That said, I would not give good odds on Jeyne being pregnant. I'm simply of the position that we can't be absolutely certain she isn't pregnant yet, although she almost certainly isn't pregnant. I think if the possibility of a switcheroo existed, Martin would have given one of his standard "I'm not answering this" replies, like, "keep reading". That said, I completely agree on both counts: I don't think Jeyne is pregnant, and there is no way for us to be absolutely sure of anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kytheros Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 31 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: I think if the possibility of a switcheroo existed, Martin would have given one of his standard "I'm not answering this" replies, like, "keep reading". That said, I completely agree on both counts: I don't think Jeyne is pregnant, and there is no way for us to be absolutely sure of anything. I think it would depend on whether GRRM wanted a hypothetical switch to be quite as obvious as it was, and that the sisters are supposed to be closer in appearance - I mean, if he says anything other than the appearance difference was a mistake, that's pretty much saying that the appearance difference is intentional, and thereby confirming that it wasn't actually Jeyne. I mean, the appearance difference was kind of blatant; if the difference was more subtle, I'd agree that GRRM would've definitely spun a nonanswer to conceal it. As it is, though ... I'm not sure about the wording of the question and answer offhand, but I don't think it explicitly says that all the differences were mistakes, that none of the differences were intentional. I could be wrong, though. At any rate, Winds should give us answers. Whenever it comes out, anyways. Unless he drops the prologue (or a relevant POV chapter) as a preview, which seems unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punzerknacker Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 I can't really see what Jeyne being pregnant would add to the story – not only would it not be very interesting for there to suddenly be a baby that is Robb's legitimate heir, it would also seem far-fetched after Sybel has explicitly told us she slipped Jeyne the moon tea. That's not GRRM's writing style in my opinion to do a 180° like that and be like "Haha! She was pregnant after all!" If he'd wanted to go with that, he would have slipped in more hints in my opinion (and definitely not said "The hips were a mistake") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punzerknacker Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 Also, if Jeyne suddenly emerges with a baby claiming it to be Robb's heir, there will be reason to doubt the baby's identity, which is exactly what we have with Aegon too, so it would be a boring repetition of a storyline that's already there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kytheros Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 1 hour ago, punzerknacker said: I can't really see what Jeyne being pregnant would add to the story – not only would it not be very interesting for there to suddenly be a baby that is Robb's legitimate heir, it would also seem far-fetched after Sybel has explicitly told us she slipped Jeyne the moon tea. That's not GRRM's writing style in my opinion to do a 180° like that and be like "Haha! She was pregnant after all!" If he'd wanted to go with that, he would have slipped in more hints in my opinion (and definitely not said "The hips were a mistake") It'd throw in an additional complication for the Stark succession. As for confirming the hypothetical child's legitimacy, presumably the Blackfish would be in a position to do so, and if the Blackfish calls the kid legitimate, that's going to be good enough for pretty much everyone. In addition, it's distinctly possible that you could sort of check by showing the kid to one of the family direwolves - if the wolf likes/approves, it's a Stark (and thus Robb's), if the wolf doesn't, kid's a fake. I don't think many people are actually taking a firm position that she is pregnant. I think majority opinion is that Jeyne almost certainly isn't pregnant, but we can't be absolutely certain yet. And that Winds should be able to settle the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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