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EddardSnow

Is The Targ Merrying Targ Really Incest.

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I thought about this concept since all the fans are complaining about show having too much incest and Jon and Dany are doomed because when they know and if still are together its Jaime and Cersei 2.0. And I think while yes the Lannister Incest in the show and Craster bedding his daughters is truely disgusting but I also think Martin is a very brilliant man and I dont think with The Targ and Targ unions is about just because they are Targs. In my overall feeling i think The Original Targaryens are kinda like special beings something simular too Elves almost. And I think at some point the first male and female targ were maybe once Dragons and as you know Dragons or any animal race. With Dragons or so on its about sent and I think Targs excluding The Mad king who was just crazy and was a monster. What I mean is i think The targ attraction for other targs is about  the dragon finding that mate all over again. Now with Rhaegar it is clear Lyanna for some reason has this simular Targ mate bond and he cannot resist her. Now we have Jon and Dany Two Targaryens and it happens while Jon did Love Ygritte first but and dany Drogo. Which would say there being non blood related makes them more ideal. I think Targaryen unions is more about that perfect Mate Magicly and On some level Two Targs are drawn together and no matter what Jon and dany were gonna be together because i think with targs its more of a special destiny deal who they bond with. With Jaime and Cersei its just pure incest because while they think Targs being together is about Blood and they Lannisters turned what may be more magical and beautiful into something sick and something else.

Now its clear not all targs were good Nobel people and its clear that once the Dragons died like dany said there Bloodline was broken from that special Targ bond from The valerian targs and Aegon. Maybe it has taken First Men Blood In Lyanna to recreate that Magic Bond Link the Targs Special Bond had back to how it originall was. I know this concept sounds like i am  trying to have an excuse too like Jon and Dany and not Make it like Cersei and Jaime which that relationship sickened me. I am not doing it that btw. i Just have a feeling Jon and Danys bond is more then about being Blood Related.

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I don't have a problem with this nephew-aunt incest. They don't know about it yet and fell in love. They fit age-wise. Incest appears to be not rare in Westeros and Essos. So what? 

Tabooing incest are modern thoughts, not GoT mechanics. Let them make love and that's it.

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It's fiction, the incest-argument is just a scapegoat for people who don't like Jon and Daenerys ending up together. 
People have no issues with murder, rape, war, backstabbing and other various horrors in this show, but man have Jon and Dany's relationship stirred up some feelings on both sides.

I don't mind their relationship either, they're the same age and both are sexually starved, their romance is (imo) well portrayed on screen so I can buy their feelings for each other, and it makes sense for them to like each other. Even from a modern PoV their "incest" doesn't bother me; they don't know they're related and they're not immediate family members. And again, it's fiction. The main reason not to commit incest (genetic deformities in the offspring) doesn't apply here.

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8 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

It's fiction, the incest-argument is just a scapegoat for people who don't like Jon and Daenerys ending up together. 
People have no issues with murder, rape, war, backstabbing and other various horrors in this show, but man have Jon and Dany's relationship stirred up some feelings on both sides.

I don't mind their relationship either, they're the same age and both are sexually starved, their romance is (imo) well portrayed on screen so I can buy their feelings for each other, and it makes sense for them to like each other. Even from a modern PoV their "incest" doesn't bother me; they don't know they're related and they're not immediate family members. And again, it's fiction. The main reason not to commit incest (genetic deformities in the offspring) doesn't apply here.

To be fair, the first bolded statement paints all the people who aren't Jon-Dany fans with a broad brush and the you cannot know the second statement is true for sure. Lots of targs had children with genetic defects.

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8 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

 Lots of targs had children with genetic defects.

Yes, but if the show was realistic, the Targaryen family would've died out along time ago. Ask a geneticist how the children in family that practiced heavy inbreeding would look after thousands of years. The geneticist would go "...what children?" ;)

My point was also that real life genetics has very little to do with the potential for genetic deformities in Jon and Dany's offspring: it's all up to GRRM and/or D&D. Just look at Dany, she doesn't exactly look like the result of centuries of inbreeding.

 

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43 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Yes, but if the show was realistic, the Targaryen family would've died out along time ago. Ask a geneticist how the children in family that practiced heavy inbreeding would look after thousands of years. The geneticist would go "...what children?" ;)

My point was also that real life genetics has very little to do with the potential for genetic deformities in Jon and Dany's offspring: it's all up to GRRM and/or D&D. Just look at Dany, she doesn't exactly look like the result of centuries of inbreeding.

 

Yes, it's absolutely true that westerosi genetics do not follow the rules of real life genetics. But the books do highlight the madness trait in Targaryens, which probably arises from the inbreeding. 

And Dany's sanity is a matter of debate :) 

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4 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

And Dany's sanity is a matter of debate :) 

Meh, she only has a short fuse on matters that are sensitive to her.
So does one of my sisters but I would never question her sanity. (At least not so she could hear it. :ph34r: )

Edited by MinscS2

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8 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Meh, she only has a short fuse on matters that are sensitive to her.
So does one of my sisters but I would never question her sanity. (At least not so she could hear it. :ph34r: )

My older brother questions my sanity in my presence all the time. I dunno why I haven't had him burnt alive by dragons yet. I probably should.. 

In all seriousness, Dany hasn't really shown any real madness yet, but even characters in the show talk about checking her impulses and fear she may turn out to be crazy like her father.

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2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

In all seriousness, Dany hasn't really shown any real madness yet, but even characters in the show talk about checking her impulses and fear she may turn out to be crazy like her father.

In this season, and previous seasons, Daenerys has shown some frightening reactions. Like when she gave a Meereen noble to her dragons/children. Not even knowing what the guy did to earn that. She sees the dragons as her children. Who feed people to their children? We were expecting Tyrion and Varys to give good counsels and restrain her. But they are failing at it. Jon may do better. Because she becomes impressed by his honor and loyalty. It could happen, and the story could end happily for both.

But the story has Jon the legitimate heir to the 7K. D&D or GRRM gave us the wedding ceremony, to avoid any contest of legitimacy. IMO, if Jon were not to rule, this wedding would not have been. So, one way or another, it will not end with Daenerys ruling the 7K.

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3 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

In this season, and previous seasons, Daenerys has shown some frightening reactions. Like when she gave a Meereen noble to her dragons/children. Not even knowing what the guy did to earn that. She sees the dragons as her children. Who feed people to their children? We were expecting Tyrion and Varys to give good counsels and restrain her. But they are failing at it. Jon may do better. Because she becomes impressed by his honor and loyalty. It could happen, and the story could end happily for both.

As other posters have pointed out, that could mean she is impulsive, rash, cruel or vengeful. Not necessarily mad. And to be fair, Dany's children are large carnivores. But I agree, Dany has given us plenty of reason to think she might be turning mad.

 

11 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

But the story has Jon the legitimate heir to the 7K. D&D or GRRM gave us the wedding ceremony, to avoid any contest of legitimacy. IMO, if Jon were not to rule, this wedding would not have been. So, one way or another, it will not end with Daenerys ruling the 7K.

Without the marriage, Jon would be a targ bastard (keeping polygamy aside). I think the marriage was shown to assert that Jon has a claim and it is higher that Dany's. I don't see it meaning that Jon will rule.

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21 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

As other posters have pointed out, that could mean she is impulsive, rash, cruel or vengeful. Not necessarily mad. And to be fair, Dany's children are large carnivores. But I agree, Dany has given us plenty of reason to think she might be turning mad.

I didn't use the word "mad". I don't know what it means. Some Targaryens were cruel, stupid, arrogant, megalomaniac, distrusted everyone,... Faults you may find in other people. Maybe only Baelor was truly "mad". But yes, Aerys II was bad enough to be named "the Mad King".

21 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Without the marriage, Jon would be a targ bastard (keeping polygamy aside). I think the marriage was shown to assert that Jon has a claim and it is higher that Dany's. I don't see it meaning that Jon will rule.

So why do you think they did this wedding?

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I fully expect Jon and Dany's son to have the Habsburg Jaw.

Hail King Charles II Targaryen.

Edited by KingMudd

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I have no issue with Incest happening in a story, or even among other people. I am not attracted to my sisters, aunt etc, but that is me.

But yes, it is incest within Planetos' world. In fact, It may even be frowned upon in Valerian. The Targs only banged one another cause they wanted to keep the Valerian blood pure and the rest of their people went kaboom.

If the writing remains consistent with the show (lol at that) then having incest babies has at a chance at creating psycho kids. And momma is already kind of unhinged as it is. If she started screaming "Burn them all!" I would not be the least bit shocked.

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I promise you, those two have a millennia of inbreeding on both sides of the family.  Besides, by the time its all said and done, they're probably going to have half a dozen resurrections between them. They are remarkable for more than just the narrowness of that gene pool.

An aunt nephew relationship has the same degree of relatedness as a half brother and half sister, which is not that crazy by Targaryan standards, especially since they are the same age and especially since half of Jon's family tree has absolutely no relation to the Targayans.

Tywin married his first cousin.

 

Edited by Deadlines? What Deadlines?

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On 9/4/2017 at 4:23 AM, MinscS2 said:

It's fiction, the incest-argument is just a scapegoat for people who don't like Jon and Daenerys ending up together. 
People have no issues with murder, rape, war, backstabbing and other various horrors in this show, but man have Jon and Dany's relationship stirred up some feelings on both sides.

I don't mind their relationship either, they're the same age and both are sexually starved, their romance is (imo) well portrayed on screen so I can buy their feelings for each other, and it makes sense for them to like each other. Even from a modern PoV their "incest" doesn't bother me; they don't know they're related and they're not immediate family members. And again, it's fiction. The main reason not to commit incest (genetic deformities in the offspring) doesn't apply here.

Agreed. 

Also their incest is super efficient. As the last two Targs they can guarantee their kid not only has a nuclear family but also an extended one all at once.

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On 9/5/2017 at 11:04 AM, Apoplexy said:

My older brother questions my sanity in my presence all the time. I dunno why I haven't had him burnt alive by dragons yet. I probably should.. 

In all seriousness, Dany hasn't really shown any real madness yet, but even characters in the show talk about checking her impulses and fear she may turn out to be crazy like her father.

The only reason people fear Dany being mad is because of her father. 

Without the sins of her father hanging over her, we would just say she displayed the necessary ruthlessness and realism in the apropriate moments. Traits fit for a ruler who must inspire fear in addition to love.

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57 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

The only reason people fear Dany being mad is because of her father. 

Without the sins of her father hanging over her, we would just say she displayed the necessary ruthlessness and realism in the apropriate moments. Traits fit for a ruler who must inspire fear in addition to love.

I wouldn't. 

She has a real love of fire that one. I mean, she crusifed people too. Not just executed them for doing what was legal in their home city state, she crusifed them. Then displayed their bodies along the roads for all to see. 

In truth, she is a tyrant and it's shocking so many flock to her both in show and watchers. She also killed off all the Kals. In a holy city no less. 

Sure, she freed slaves. That's honestly the only good thing she has done. But she also executed a looooot of people along the way. 

Her claim to a throne on a land she did not grow up in is petty at best, downright arrogant at worst. Especially when you realize her ancestors were also outside invaders. 

She wants to break the wheel by doing what her ancestors did to create it, and all her love is based on the hope of what she says she wants to do and not on what she has actually done. She can't even control one city. 

Her father being mad only gives explanation to her blood thirst and does not excuse it. 

Edited by MrJay

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1 hour ago, MrJay said:

I wouldn't.

Yes. She did what her ancestors did: Bend the knee or die. You have no choice. You can only submit now ... and revolt later when your enemy will be weaker. You gain no love, no trust, from your opponents. You tear apart your land. You do not mend the wounds. You must be the king of everyone. Not just those who lick your boots.

See what Jon said to Cersei. If he later says to someone "we have a deal", this someone will believe him. And hold to an agreement. Well anyone but Cersei.

See what Daenerys said after Jon's praise by Tyrion "invites him to come to Dragonstone... and bend the knee". Compare with Jon"s "Will you stand beside me, Ned and Alys, now and always?" Don't you like one better than the other? Jon made allies for ever of his enemies. Daenerys is just making enemies forever of those who bent the knee under threat of death. Will she understand that with Jon? Maybe. But it doesn't mean she is the right (I don't care who is rightful) leader.

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She has a real love of fire that one.

She does. It's understandable during the circumstances though, what with her being immune to it herself and her having actual dragons, etc. It's kinda in her genes as well. Aerys wasn't the only Targaryen who liked fire.

I mean, she crusifed people too. Not just executed them for doing what was legal in their home city state, she crusifed them. Then displayed their bodies along the roads for all to see. 

She did. This was one of her mistakes when ruling in Mereen. Dany has a very black and white approach to whats right and wrong, good and evil. It's one of her flaws, but she's coming around to the idea that not everything is that simple.
In Danys worldview, slavery is one of the most evil things imaginary (and I agree with her to some extent). The reason she crucified them and displayed their bodies along the road was because thats what the slavers themselves had done with hundreds of children (Dany's achilles-heel). She learned after the fact that not all the Masters of Mereen actually supported this, and that collective punishment ultimately doesn't end well, nor is it just.

In truth, she is a tyrant and it's shocking so many flock to her both in show and watchers.

In the world of Westeros (and pre-modern times), the line between a tyrant and a autocratic king/queen is blurred.
It's not shocking why so many flock to her though, she's a good person at heart (especially compared to other rulers in GoT) and a interesting character. People are free to dislike her of course.


She also killed off all the Kals. In a holy city no less. 

She did kill of the Khals. One can argue that this was in self-defense. They wanted to either imprison her for life, or rape her to death. Daenerys also considered the Khals evil and so she had them killed. By doing this she also makes sure that those 100.000 dothraki screamers of hers doesn't go around and murder, rape and pillage, which they would've done otherwise.
And the city being holy is irrelevant; it was forbidden to wield weapons and draw blood, not to kill people in it. The khal's themselves points out that killing itself is not forbidden, moments before they die.

Sure, she freed slaves. That's honestly the only good thing she has done.

Even if that was the only good thing she has done (which it isn't), freeing what, hundreds of thousands of slaves from slavery alone would have her end up in the Essosi-history books as a great liberator. 

But she also executed a looooot of people along the way. 

She haven't really executed "a lot" of people along the way. Not counting kills-in-combat, her killcount is rather low actually.
She also hasn't killed a single person who she (and most viewers) didn't consider evil, or who tried to betray her in some way, at least not intentionally.

 

Her claim to a throne on a land she did not grow up in is petty at best, downright arrogant at worst. Especially when you realize her ancestors were also outside invaders. 

I wouldn't call it petty. By law of succession, she is the rightful ruler of the seven kingdoms (well, untill Jon was revealed to be a real Targaryen). Either way, the show has gone to great length to point out that Daenerys followers doesn't follow her because of her being the daughter to Aerys, they follow her because they believe/respect her. (exception being the surviving soldiers of the Loot-Train battle.)

As for her ancestors being outside invaders: Dragonstone is a part of Westeros. Her ancestors lived on Dragonstone for a long time before Aegon the Conqueror united 6 of the 7 kingdoms. How long does a person or a group of people need to be on a continent before they stop being "outsiders"? With that logic, everyone except the northerners could be considered outsiders since they're andals and not first men.

She wants to break the wheel by doing what her ancestors did to create it, and all her love is based on the hope of what she says she wants to do and not on what she has actually done. She can't even control one city. 

I'm not gonna argue here. I have no idea how she plans on breaking the wheel actually. The show has portrayed her as having an easy time to conquer, but having difficulties to actually rule - although they do also try to show that she's becoming better at it. Her whole storyarc in season 4, 5 and 6 when she was in Mereen was supposed to show us that she doesn't give up on ruling just because it ends up being harder than she thought it was, but instead tries to actually improve and learn - with mixed results. As Tyrion said "no ruler ever had the support of all the people."
As for not being able to control one city, I doubt any ruler portrayed in GoT would've been able to rule Mereen peacefully when 3 other major city-states continuously try to incite rebellion in it.

Her father being mad only gives explanation to her blood thirst and does not excuse it. 

Except that Daenerys isn't bloodthirsty, not by a long shot. 
A bloodthirsty person would be Ramsay or Cersei, who get pleasure of seeing people die, mutilated, tortured, etc.

Dany herself gains no pleasure in punishing and killing others. Her comment to Jon in episode 5 makes this clear if it wasn't already: "We both want to help people. We can only help people from a position of strength. Sometimes strength is terrible."
What's the saying, you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs.

My comments in bold. :)

Edited by MinscS2

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I think people of Westeros will be tolerant of aunt + nephew relationship. After all, Ned Stark's parents were cousins, and Tywin also married his cousin. It's just weird by modern day standards. 

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