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Lyanna's winter rose crown


Vaedys Targaryen

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Rhaegar Targaryen crowned Lyanna as Queen of Love and Beauty at the Tourney of Harrenhal and the flower crown was made with winter roses, her favourite flower.

Winter roses are said to be very rare and, as the name implies, only grow in the winter.

How did the people who organised the tourney have time to not only find winter roses, but also make them into a crown for the Queen of Love and Beauty? We know Rhaegar was an okay jouster, but he won the biggest joust in the series, where he crowns Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty and it just happens to be her favourite flower.

Seems a little bit too convenient.

Did Rhaegar set this up? Did he and/or someone else pay the other jousters to let him win so he could specifically win for Lyanna?

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42 minutes ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Did Rhaegar set this up? Did he and/or someone else pay the other jousters to let him win so he could specifically win for Lyanna?

That's actually a really interesting idea; Visenya needed to be the ice to Rhaenys' fire so from the very beginning he manipulated the situation so that 13 year old Lyanna Stark would fall for him. 

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Rhaegar was better than fair at jousting. I was looking through tournament results not to long ago to develop a theory about Ser Barristan Selmy... The only two knights that really ever beat Rhaegar were Selmy (who lost in the finals to Rhaegar at Harrenhall) and Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning.

Ser Barristan had defeated Rhaegar recently, so it is possible that he may have held back at Harrenhall. But he has never flat out said he threw the match either.

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Winter roses only grow in the winter? I'm not sure this is definitely and exactly what the name implies. According to the legend of Bael the Bard, he went to Winterfell "one winter night" and the winter roses had just started to bloom. Right. However, Lord Stark sent to his glass garden for the most beautiful flower. The glass garden seems to imply that the flowers don't exactly bloom in the snow or in the typical winter weather of the North but in special circumstances, protected from the actual weather.

The name may imply only that it is possible to grow this rose in winter when the right conditions are provided (the other types of roses may not grow or may not become really beautiful in glass gardens with Westerosi technology); or it may imply that this rose is somehow associated with the North or specifically with Winterfell (this does not mean that they cannot grow elsewhere, and it is even possible that winter rose is only a Northern name for the flower, which may be called just blue rose or some other kind of rose in Highgarden, for example). It may also indicate that in natural circumstances it is a very early spring flower (therefore it is easy to provide the right circumstances for it in a glass garden during actual winter), and the year of the Harrenhal tournament was The Year of the False Spring, so perhaps it was just the right time for winter roses to bloom in natural circumstances (and not necessarily only in the North). How Rhaegar just happened to have a crown of Lyanna's favourite flowers is a good question, but since he was the Crown Prince, he may have been able to secretly order one to be made ASAP just before the end of the tournament (when it was clear that he had a chance to be the winner and he may have decided to crown Lyanna if he was).

Or the winter rose crown may have been part of the original (political) plans for the Harrenhal meeting, which were thwarted by the presence of Aerys. But don't ask me what kind of original plan needed to include a crown of winter roses or why they used the crown if the rest of the plan failed. To be frank, the first explanation above (that the crown was ordered by Rhaegar in anticipation of a victory perhaps quite late during the tournament) seems the simpler one to me. Rhaegar didn't even have to know that the winter rose was Lyanna's favourite flower, because it could be so easily understood as a symbol of Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, the flower that would perfectly suit the Stark maiden.

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I'm not sure the crown of Winter roses Rhaegar gives Lyanna means anything, but I've always found it odd that that's what the crown for the QoLaB at the Harrenhal tourney was made of. Such a convenient coincidence, but it may be just that... :dunno:

 

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Just now, Romaine3 said:

@kissdbyfire you know quite well that our buddy George does nothing by chance in his world ;)

True. Such a deliberate little :devil:

Still, I allow for the possibility that maybe, way back when, a couple of things could have slipped. And this could be one such. :)

 

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Winter roses grow in the glass gardens at Winterfell. The point of a glass garden or greenhouse is to create a more favourable growing climate compared to outside. So I don't see why blue roses could not grow in the Riverlands. As for the season, it was the year of False Spring and even snowed in King's Landing later that year if I recall correctly.

The petals that fell from Lyanna's hand as she died are perhaps more puzzling. Obviously not the same roses considering the time that had lapsed since Harrenhal. Either Ned remembered it wrong and is attaching what happened at Harrenhal to the events at the Tower of Joy orelse  the roses are easily accessible and Rhaegar was able to bring Lyanna fresh flowers before he left. Either works for me.

The winter rose is obviously symbolic of Jon from a literary point of view, but I can see how a winter flower could be symbolic of the PtwP from an in-universe point of view. I don't think it is just coincidence that the garland Rhaegar gave Lyanna was made of blue roses. Rhaegar believed he needed one more child to fulfil prophecy, and I think the selection process for a suitable mother was finalised when he crowned his queen of love and beauty.

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Just now, three-eyed monkey said:

The petals that fell from Lyanna's hand as she died are perhaps more puzzling. Obviously not the same roses considering the time that had lapsed since Harrenhal. Either Ned remembered it wrong and is attaching what happened at Harrenhal to the events at the Tower of Joy orelse  the roses are easily accessible and Rhaegar was able to bring Lyanna fresh flowers before he left. Either works for me.

The petals Lyanna drops in Ned's fever dream are black.

AGoT, Eddard I

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

 

I think it's to do w/ Ned's recollections about events at the ToJ not being a literal recounting. They're also early clues to R+L=J. I am dying to know all the details [I can/will get] on events at the ToJ. 

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5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I'm not sure the crown of Winter roses Rhaegar gives Lyanna means anything, but I've always found it odd that that's what the crown for the QoLaB at the Harrenhal tourney was made of. Such a convenient coincidence, but it may be just that... :dunno:

 

"To show everyone how rich he is" 

When arranging a tourney with everything overly extravagant - skimping out on the Crown of Love and Beauty seems illogical to me :) 

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Just now, Sigella said:

"To show everyone how rich he is" 

When arranging a tourney with everything overly extravagant - skimping out on the Crown of Love and Beauty seems illogical to me :) 

My point was more to do w/ blue winter roses being more of a northern thing, and therefore not so readily available in the south. That's just conjecture, though, since we are not specifically told that. 

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2 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

The petals that fell from Lyanna's hand as she died are perhaps more puzzling. Obviously not the same roses considering the time that had lapsed since Harrenhal. Either Ned remembered it wrong and is attaching what happened at Harrenhal to the events at the Tower of Joy orelse  the roses are easily accessible and Rhaegar was able to bring Lyanna fresh flowers before he left. Either works for me.

They might be the same roses. Red roses turn more purplish when they die, so blue petals in life may very well turn black. And there are simple ways to keep dried roses intact for years.

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16 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

They might be the same roses. Red roses turn more purplish when they die, so blue petals in life may very well turn black. And there are simple ways to keep dried roses intact for years.

There is almost 2 years between Harrenhal and the Tower of Joy. If it is simple to keep the same roses intact for that long using medieval methods then I guess they could be the same roses. 

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

The petals Lyanna drops in Ned's fever dream are black.

AGoT, Eddard I

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

 

I think it's to do w/ Ned's recollections about events at the ToJ not being a literal recounting. They're also early clues to R+L=J. I am dying to know all the details [I can/will get] on events at the ToJ. 

Ya that's the quote I'm thinking of. It's from Ned's memory when he visited Lyanna in the crypts of Winterfell with Robert. I know the petals are dead and black but I think they we are meant to take it that they were blue roses. It was one of the early clues that Lyanna loved Rhaegar and was not raped by him as Robert claimed.

Later, when Ned has his fever dream about the fight at the Tower of Joy he remembers rose petals as blue as the eyes of death blowing across the sky. As this is a fever dream and Ned has had milk of the poppy I think it is less reliable than the one in the crypts. But even if this is not a literal memory, Ned clearly connects the blue rose with R+L=J.

 

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Just now, three-eyed monkey said:

There is almost 2 years between Harrenhal and the Tower of Joy. If it is simple to keep the same roses intact for that long using medieval methods then I guess they could be the same roses. 

Ya that's the quote I'm thinking of. It's from Ned's memory when he visited Lyanna in the crypts of Winterfell with Robert. I know the petals are dead and black but I think they we are meant to take it that they were blue roses. It was one of the early clues that Lyanna loved Rhaegar and was not raped by him as Robert claimed.

Later, when Ned has his fever dream about the fight at the Tower of Joy he remembers rose petals as blue as the eyes of death blowing across the sky. As this is a fever dream and Ned has had milk of the poppy I think it is less reliable than the one in the crypts. But even if this is not a literal memory, Ned clearly connects the blue rose with R+L=J.

 

Agree. I mixed up both even if I quoted the right passage. 

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It hadn't occurred to me that Rhaegar was actually holding auditions for mother of the 3rd child at Harrenhall.  I believe Elia was pregnant with the 2nd child during the tourney?  Given obstetrics at the time, would it have been possible to know in advance that Elia could bear no more children?   I always thought the crowning of Lyanna was out of respect for her courage and cunning.  She made a bold public statement by entering and winning and telling the knights to straighten their squires out.   He made an equally bold public statement of calling her out privately with the crown.   That was my take anyway.    However, if this was a mom recruitment exercise the crown had to be PANDERING.   I hate it when you guys take all the romance and mystery out things.   

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24 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

There is almost 2 years between Harrenhal and the Tower of Joy. If it is simple to keep the same roses intact for that long using medieval methods then I guess they could be the same roses. 

You don't need anything to keep dried roses. I have my wedding bouquet it is all different shades of red roses, I've been married 13 years. I just put it in a box and tada! dried bouquet of roses.

Lyanna could have kept her crown, It wouldn't be unusual to keep something like that. Also, it is if that is the case a clue that she went willingly, as she took the crown with her when she set out from WF.  And it makes sense that she was clutching it on her death bed too, as her prince is dead, and she's not feeling too well after the birth. Bring me the crown I want to hold it....

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My theory is that Robert Baratheon went to great lengths to make Lyanna that Crown of winter roses(Ned would have told him she loved them) and he was going to gift it to Lyanna before she departed from the tourney. Rhaegar overheard Robert telling Ned about his gift then went into Robert's tent and stole it. The rest as they say is history.

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1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

You don't need anything to keep dried roses. I have my wedding bouquet it is all different shades of red roses, I've been married 13 years. I just put it in a box and tada! dried bouquet of roses.

Lyanna could have kept her crown, It wouldn't be unusual to keep something like that. Also, it is if that is the case a clue that she went willingly, as she took the crown with her when she set out from WF.  And it makes sense that she was clutching it on her death bed too, as her prince is dead, and she's not feeling too well after the birth. Bring me the crown I want to hold it....

That makes sense. I didn't know that about roses. I certainly works better that the petals are from the actual crown Rhaegar gave her.

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4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

You don't need anything to keep dried roses. I have my wedding bouquet it is all different shades of red roses, I've been married 13 years. I just put it in a box and tada! dried bouquet of roses.

 

Yes, I also have my wedding bouquet of roses. 23 years. 

I have always taken it for granted that the blackened rose petals were from the crown. 

 

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