The Seven: Do they have any power? Do they even exist?

[Ser Petyr Parker]

We see good evidence of power from various kinds of gods/magical beliefs. But do we ever see anything to suggest there's any truth behind the Faith of the Seven? I can't think of many examples where their power could have been demonstrated; Tyrion's trials by combat are the main examples I can think of. It doesn't seem as if there was any divine intervention in either example, although you could make a case for the first one. Maybe they nudged Bronn into being Tyrion's champion. In his second trial, if there was any divine intervention it seemed to go against Tyrion, resulting in a false guilty verdict.

The Mountain's sudden victory in the second trial wasn't too different from the Hound's unlikely turnaround in his own trial by combat, where R'hllor was asked to judge instead. Since we can be pretty sure there's something to R'hllor, we might assume he needs the Hound alive for some reason. Applying the same logic to Tyrion doesn't work though. Why would the Seven suddenly want Tyrion dead, and why would they do it that way? It seems more likely that they just didn't get involved for whatever reason (like non-existence).

When a Red Priest speaks, I pay attention. When they ask R'hllor for something, I expect some kind of result. But when a Septon speaks I don't expect anything special, and when they appeal to the Seven I expect nothing at all.

So do we have any examples that could point towards the Seven having some power? What does everyone think about them?

 

[Archangel Lucifer]

I don't think Seven exist

[Ser Petyr Parker]

So far I don't think so either, but my alternative guess is that somehow they represent all sides, and therefore as a net result, no sides. My only reason for thinking that is the refraction of white light into rainbows symbolism. At the moment, the key magical players seem to be R'hllor (the Red God), the Old Gods (with their Green Men, green dreams, greenseers, etc.), and the Others (with their glowing blue eyes). White light on computer screens (among other things) is made with red, green and blue lights ("RGB"). So if the Seven represent these three sides (or more), and these sides won't or can't cooperate, the net result is nothing happens. If you have a force in one direction or the other, you can change direction or speed. If you have equal forces in opposite directions, you don't change anything. That was just an analogy, but now I think about it, that's basically Newton's first law. Who discovered that white light is made up of different colours, and decided we should think of them as seven colours? Newton. Probably just a coincidence...

[falcotron]

There's plenty of evidence that fire magic works, and the red priests attribute their fire magic to R'hllor, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're right about that. Every time Melisandre works magic, it works, and every time she peers into the flames, she sees something prophetic—but every time she's sure she knows what R'hllor wants, she's wrong. And some parts of her religious beliefs are almost certainly wrong—for example, the idea that the Seven and the Old Gods are actually champions of the Great Other. And she doesn't even seem to have the same kind of faith in a personal connection that, say, born-again Christians have; she just believes in R'hllor because his magic works.

But shadowbinder magic works and isn't connected to any gods, and Mirri Maz Duur has collected magic and science from every tradition she could and it all works without any apparent belief. So, magic in this world isn't proof of gods at all. And, even if it were, we're never given any in-universe reason to believe the god behind the red priests' magic is anything like the god they believe in. 

So how do we actually know there's a R'hllor who wants anything, as opposed to people just looking for an explanation for some forms of magic and pinning it on a god they don't actually have any knowledge or experience of?

In which case, the question may not be "Do the Faith exist like R'hllor does?", but "Why have the Andals built a religion that isn't based on any evident magic?" And for an answer to that, you only have to ask why Catholics or Shintoists have done the same thing in our world. Building religions is something humans do, for a variety of complex reasons.

[Kienn]

Melisandre gets her power from the Seven. They are the true and only Gods.

[aryagonnakill#2]

The only thing I could think of would be Davos praying to the mother and then being rescued against all odds while he was trapped on a little rock after the battle of the blackwater.

[Ser Lepus]

I think the Seven are a mere reflection of Westerosi society: Men are defined by their social class and role, they are Lords (the Father), Warriors or Commoners (workers, the Smith). Women on the other hand, are defined by their family: They are Daughters (the Maid), Mothers and Grandmothers (the Crone)...

All the other cultures do the same: The Lhazarene have their Sherpherd God, the peaceful people of Naath, who practice the art of music, not those of war, have their Lord of Harmony, the Dothraki have their Horse God, the Ironborn have their Drowned God, who endorses piracy, looting and rape, the Faceless Men worship the God of Death, the sex-positive Summer Islanders have a fertility goddess with sixteen teats and consider sex a holy act, and Lys, which was created by the Valyrian Dragonlords as their own vacation resort/luxurious brothel, have their Love Goddess...

Everybody shape their gods as reflections of their own society, customs, principles and culture...

That said, I suspect R'hllor isn't different, either. We know magic and prophecy exist, but people of other religions or even people who aren't religious at all can do that too: Many characters have prophetic powers (hell, Bran is better than all the Red Priests combined, and we know his power comes from his blood, not from any deity...), a quartheen street performer and conman could do Fire Magic, the Guild of Alchemists can do Fire Magic too (that's how they can create Wildfire), wood witches and maegis can do blood magic... etc. Even resurrection and undead creation isn't restricted to Red Priests, the Children of the Forests and the Warlocks of Quarth had their own version...

There is nothing the Red Priests can do that couldn't be duplicated by non-religious sorcerers or by magicians of other cultures and religions...

Hell, we know they are wrong about the Great Other... the NK isn't a servant of some great Dark God, he is just an undead weapon of the CotF gone wrong...

[Ser Petyr Parker]

34 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

The only thing I could think of would be Davos praying to the mother and then being rescued against all odds while he was trapped on a little rock after the battle of the blackwater.

Good one. I keep meaning to look into that again. It seemed weird, and I think even one or two characters said the ship that rescued him shouldn't have been there (I don't remember the details). If the Crone could raise her lamp and shed some light on this, I would be grateful.

 

1 hour ago, falcotron said:

There's plenty of evidence that fire magic works, and the red priests attribute their fire magic to R'hllor, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're right about that. Every time Melisandre works magic, it works, and every time she peers into the flames, she sees something prophetic—but every time she's sure she knows what R'hllor wants, she's wrong. And some parts of her religious beliefs are almost certainly wrong—for example, the idea that the Seven and the Old Gods are actually champions of the Great Other. And she doesn't even seem to have the same kind of faith in a personal connection that, say, born-again Christians have; she just believes in R'hllor because his magic works.

But shadowbinder magic works and isn't connected to any gods, and Mirri Maz Duur has collected magic and science from every tradition she could and it all works without any apparent belief. So, magic in this world isn't proof of gods at all. And, even if it were, we're never given any in-universe reason to believe the god behind the red priests' magic is anything like the god they believe in. 

So how do we actually know there's a R'hllor who wants anything, as opposed to people just looking for an explanation for some forms of magic and pinning it on a god they don't actually have any knowledge or experience of?

All good points. What I really meant was Fire, whether that means R'hllor or not. As for whether there are gods at all, I think there are suggestions that things happen for non-human purposes. Take Moqorro. He was swept overboard in a storm (we have followers of R'hllor apparently controlling the weather several times), supposedly survived in the sea for 10 days, then got fished out by Victarion and immediately decided to start helping him (for now, at least). It seems likely this wasn't all just chance and luck, and that magic was in fact involved. But I don't see reason to think Moqorro or anyone else was really wielding that magic; it does seem a lot more like a god deciding to literally deus ex machina Moqorro to Victarion. Or even better, Beric and Thoros. Thoros didn't do any special magic to bring Beric back from the dead. It's more as if something decided he needed to come back and worked through Thoros. On the other hand, the resurrection of Lady Stoneheart seemed to be a human decision.

1 hour ago, falcotron said:

In which case, the question may not be "Do the Faith exist like R'hllor does?", but "Why have the Andals built a religion that isn't based on any evident magic?" And for an answer to that, you only have to ask why Catholics or Shintoists have done the same thing in our world. Building religions is something humans do, for a variety of complex reasons.

That's a really good question. I'm just not sure about your answer. Catholicism and Shintoism weren't invented in a world with obvious magic everywhere. But then we don't really know how most religions started. It could always just take one charismatic schizophrenic or con artist. Perhaps it just took one person to preach the virtues of faith rather than demanding flashy magic shows as proof.

I also had some vague ideas that maybe the Maesters basically came up with this religion to steer people away from magic. Do we know how old they are? Then again, Maesters basically get to decide what history says, so if the timelines don't fit it doesn't necessarily mean anything.

[Seams]

2 hours ago, Ser Petyr Parker said:

We see good evidence of power from various kinds of gods/magical beliefs. But do we ever see anything to suggest there's any truth behind the Faith of the Seven?

For the ASOIAF characters, the most significant elements of the Faith of the Seven seem to come from the legends within the religion, not the appeals to gods for special protection or strength or wisdom.

We learn about one of the legends from Catelyn: that the crone let the raven into the world when she peered through the door between life and death. We have lots of crones and lots of ravens in the story. I suspect this little parable confirms what Bran finds when he skinchanges into a raven: that ravens hold the consciousness of long-dead people. When Mormont's raven helps to elect and then adopts the new Lord Commander Jon Snow, I think we are seeing Mormont's spirit (and the spirits of all the Lord Commanders who preceded him) perched on Jon's shoulder.

A Tyrion POV tells us of Hugor of the Hill. Even though his story is supposed to be part of Andal history, it is heavily linked to the Faith of the Seven. The seven work together to make Hugor a powerful king. We don't yet know who will be on the iron throne, but maybe this story will provide an indication. Obviously, Tyrion has taken the name Hugor Hill. This may be a clue linking the legend to the ASOIAF characters.

Catelyn seems to be the most genuinely devout character (until we meet the High Sparrow and Lancel Lannister gets religion). She doesn't worship in a way that involves the crystal crown of the High Septon or an expensive Great Sept. We see her in a down-to-earth country sept praying before simple charcoal drawings of the seven:

Within, the seven walls were cracked and crooked. God is one, Septon Osmynd had taught her when she was a girl, with seven aspects, as the sept is a single building, with seven walls. The wealthy septs of the cities had statues of the Seven and an altar to each. In Winterfell, Septon Chayle hung carved masks from each wall. Here Catelyn found only rough charcoal drawings. (ACoK, Catelyn IV)

On first reading, Catelyn's prayers seem to be unanswered - her husband and children are victimized, hunted and killed - perhaps proving that the gods either don't exist or don't work in the way that Andal descendants expect them to work. But when you read the prayer again, and see exactly what Catelyn requested, maybe she did get everything she requested:

Lost and weary, Catelyn Stark gave herself over to her gods. She knelt before the Smith, who fixed things that were broken, and asked that he give her sweet Bran his protection. She went to the Maid and beseeched her to lend her courage to Arya and Sansa, to guard them in their innocence. To the Father, she prayed for justice, the strength to seek it and the wisdom to know it, and she asked the Warrior to keep Robb strong and shield him in his battles. Lastly she turned to the Crone, whose statues often showed her with a lamp in one hand. "Guide me, wise lady," she prayed. "Show me the path I must walk, and do not let me stumble in the dark places that lie ahead." (ACoK, Catelyn IV)

She doesn't ask the Smith to repair Bran's legs; she asks the smith to protect Bran. The maid is not generally associated with courage but we do see Sansa and Arya exhibit a lot of bravery as they find different ways to survive their ordeals. I always suspect that references to justice have something to do with the sword known as Ice - just Ice - and this part of the prayer could be an ironic reference to Ned's upcoming beheading. Robb is often associated with the word strong (along with other Robb / Robert / boar characters) and he is very successful in battle but then dies at a feast. Oops. Forgot to pray for a shield at a wedding feast. When Catelyn becomes Lady Stoneheart, she will be a crone, and she walks through some dark places as she seeks revenge on the Lannisters. Prayer answered?

Only five of the seven are directly addressed in Catelyn's prayer. She leaves out the mother and the stranger.

It's also interesting to me to note that it is Ser Robar Royce who tells Catelyn that it's time to stop praying:

Finally there were footsteps behind her, and a noise at the door. "My lady," Ser Robar said gently, "pardon, but our time is at an end. We must be back before the dawn breaks."

Catelyn rose stiffly. Her knees ached, and she would have given much for a featherbed and a pillow just then. "Thank you, ser. I am ready." (ACoK, Catelyn IV)

Ser Robar has the same name as the last king of Runestone before the Andal takeover. The Royces are super important symbols in ASOIAF, I suspect, with Ser Waymar being the first to die in the AGoT prologue. The line, "our time is at an end" seems to foreshadow that Ser Robar is about to die. And indeed, he soon dies defending Brienne and Catelyn as they escape the scene of Renly's death. Is it possible that the other phrases in his line and in Catelyn's response ("Thank you, ser. I am ready.") are a way of saying that the time of both the First Men and the Andals has come to an end, and the breaking dawn will bring a new (or very old) cycle back to ascendancy over Westeros?

[Romaine3]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that as soon as the leaders and staunch believers of the faith of the seven become radical/fanatical/militant zealots, the sooner their gods will begin to appear.

Other religions that have shown that their respective Gods "care" seem to involve elements of mysticism and magic of some sort. The Faith of the Seven lacks these key elements, so they need to make up for what they lack through oppressing the heretical non-believers right off of the continent of Westeros.

[Romaine3]

A few martyrs and maybe an odd miracle here and there will help to unite the faith as well.

[AlaskanSandman]

4 hours ago, Ser Petyr Parker said:

We see good evidence of power from various kinds of gods/magical beliefs. But do we ever see anything to suggest there's any truth behind the Faith of the Seven? I can't think of many examples where their power could have been demonstrated; Tyrion's trials by combat are the main examples I can think of. It doesn't seem as if there was any divine intervention in either example, although you could make a case for the first one. Maybe they nudged Bronn into being Tyrion's champion. In his second trial, if there was any divine intervention it seemed to go against Tyrion, resulting in a false guilty verdict.

The Mountain's sudden victory in the second trial wasn't too different from the Hound's unlikely turnaround in his own trial by combat, where R'hllor was asked to judge instead. Since we can be pretty sure there's something to R'hllor, we might assume he needs the Hound alive for some reason. Applying the same logic to Tyrion doesn't work though. Why would the Seven suddenly want Tyrion dead, and why would they do it that way? It seems more likely that they just didn't get involved for whatever reason (like non-existence).

When a Red Priest speaks, I pay attention. When they ask R'hllor for something, I expect some kind of result. But when a Septon speaks I don't expect anything special, and when they appeal to the Seven I expect nothing at all.

So do we have any examples that could point towards the Seven having some power? What does everyone think about them?

 

I believe that the 7 exist but the Faith of the Seven no longer understand those they worship. So the God's dont respond since there is never a blood sacrifice made when they pray to the seven. Where as Rhllor and the Old Gods will certainly respond after receiving a blood sacrifice, likely as this feeds their power. 

Who are the seven i often wonder. Are they associated with the Lord of Light, or the Others. They definitely have similar aspects to Braavos faceless god/many god or what ever he's called. 

The Faith of the Seven sounds similar to the Church of Starry Wisdom allegedly founded by the Bloodstone Emperor. So the 7 may be 7 chunks of the moon that fell to earth. These chunks possibly having spirits within them such as the Weirwood trees do? Or not? Idk. Ive pondered many weird ideas trying to reconcile some of these things.

[falcotron]

On 9/3/2017 at 5:47 AM, Ser Petyr Parker said:

As for whether there are gods at all, I think there are suggestions that things happen for non-human purposes.

That's a good point. It's not just that the traditional "spell" for resurrecting people suddenly started working again for everyone, it's that it started working only for Thoros with Beric, and not (as far as we know) for anyone of the thousands of other people given the same ritual, and the reasons for that don't seem to be Thoros's reasons. So, there is something in the universe that deserves to be called "gods".

If, like the gods of Discworld, gods get their power and very existence from human worship, then there is a pretty good case for R'hllor. But I doubt that's true of this universe.

And without that, there still isn't much evidence for the specific gods people believe in, any more than lightning is evidence for Thor. Lightning seemed supernatural and purposeful to the ancients, and for decent reasons given what they knew (just try to explain how it's a natural force, and why it's attracted to certain structures and not others, to someone without at least a 17th century background…), but there's really nothing that makes Thor any better or worse a fit than Zeus for explaining it.

Thoros, who believes in R'hllor and understands R'hllorrian theology, still doesn't understand the reasons for Beric's resurrection any better than we do. So, R'hllor still is really no better an explanation for Beric than the Black Goat of Qohor, some god no human has ever thought of, aliens from Daemos trying to fool humanity into believing in gods, or future Bran with superpowers.

ETA: In fact, the extreme dualism of the red priests' religion—which insists that the Old Gods, the Seven, etc. are all demonic servants of the Great Other—pretty much ensures that either their gods don't exist as they believe in them, or nobody else's gods do. But that doesn't really prove anything; their religions could be somewhat close to being correct even if they can't be correct. (Maybe people really are unwittingly worshipping demonic servants of the Great Other, or maybe R'hllor and the Great Other do exist but just aren't as all-powerful as the red priests believe.)

On 9/3/2017 at 5:47 AM, Ser Petyr Parker said:

That's a really good question. I'm just not sure about your answer. Catholicism and Shintoism weren't invented in a world with obvious magic everywhere. But then we don't really know how most religions started. It could always just take one charismatic schizophrenic or con artist. Perhaps it just took one person to preach the virtues of faith rather than demanding flashy magic shows as proof.

Well, we have at least some ideas how religions get started.

But really, that's my point. Explaining the Faith is much the same as explaining Shintoism, and if we only have some ideas for the latter after a few centuries of secular philosophy, science, and history, maybe we shouldn't expect an answer to the former.

(Unless, of course, GRRM wants to write about the human capacity for and means of inventing religions, in which case obviously we would expect to understand how the Faith started from reading his novels.)

On 9/3/2017 at 5:47 AM, Ser Petyr Parker said:

I also had some vague ideas that maybe the Maesters basically came up with this religion to steer people away from magic. Do we know how old they are? Then again, Maesters basically get to decide what history says, so if the timelines don't fit it doesn't necessarily mean anything.

I don't think there's anything in the timelines that rules out your conspiracy—especially if they did it by converting a small group of Andals over on Essos and inspiring them to conquer Westeros.

Their earliest precursor as "Peremore's pets", and the building of the Citadel, are supposed to be from a generation or two after Bran the Builder, late in the Age of Heroes. Which would give them a few thousand years before the Faith is supposed to have started.

We don't know when those precursors actually became the Order of the Maesters, and I know some fans theorize that happened after the Andals brought writing, but that isn't based on much. And would your conspiracy actually require writing, or the current form of organization they have? If you're thinking something like Scientology, then yes, but that isn't the only way to invent and promulgate a religion.

Finally, their current power and position as advisors to every house on Westeros only started with the decline of the Alchemists' Guild, which began only a few centuries ago (presumably connected to either the Doom or Aegon?), and was only completed with the disgrace of the Mad King. But again, I don't think your conspiracy needs them to have the same position they do today.

[falcotron]

On 9/3/2017 at 8:45 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

The Faith of the Seven sounds similar to the Church of Starry Wisdom allegedly founded by the Bloodstone Emperor.

What about them sounds at all similar?

All we know about the Church of Starry Wisdom in-universe is that they worship a black stone that fell from the skies, they have scrying towers, they sing songs to the stars, they're universally referred to as "sinister", their cult exists in port cities all over the known world, and they were allegedly founded by the Bloodstone Emperor.

Out-of-universe, GRRM took the name from a Nyarlathotep cult that first appeared in Lovecraft's story "The Haunter of the Dark". The Church's aim was to use an evil alien artifact to summon their dread god and his horrific servants who can only go abroad in the darkness. They were so dangerous that other demonic cults may have banded together with the Christians to wipe them out. Nyarlathotep promises his worshippers limitless knowledge of the universe (that's the "starry wisdom") in exchange for outrageous sacrifices, but, as in this story, he seems to be unleashed by accident more often than by his cultists.

[AlaskanSandman]

8 minutes ago, falcotron said:

What about them sounds at all similar?

All we know about the Church of Starry Wisdom in-universe is that they worship a black stone that fell from the skies, they have scrying towers, they sing songs to the stars, they're universally referred to as "sinister", their cult exists in port cities all over the known world, and they were allegedly founded by the Bloodstone Emperor. 

Out-of-universe, GRRM took the name from a Nyarlathotep cult that first appeared in Lovecraft's story "The Haunter of the Dark". The Church's aim was to use an evil alien artifact to summon their dread god and his horrific servants who can only go abroad in the darkness. They were so dangerous that other demonic cults may have banded together with the Christians to wipe them out. Nyarlathotep promises his worshippers limitless knowledge of the universe (that's the "starry wisdom") in exchange for outrageous sacrifices, but, as in this story, he seems to be unleashed by accident more often than by his cultists.

The whole bit about stars is how ther're similar. Both religions are caught up about stars. The seven came down? Pulled 7 stars down to make Hugors crown?  Etc. This isn't a theory i constructed so you'll have to forgive me for not having alll the ins and outs of it. The person who started it is working under the same theory that the Bloodstone Emperor and Hugor are the same guy too. In many of the myths there something about a falling star or stars or meteors or a moon. Either way something fell from skies and these two religions have been built up around them. And if Hugor, Huzhor Amai, and the Bloodstone Emperor are the same which many clues point to, then that's a direct link. In-Universe.

Kinda just like how the Drowned faith is similar to that of Three Sisters and the Storm Lands during Durran's time. All separate but similar. Happens. 

And it never said The Church worshiped a Black stone, just that the BloodEmperor did. Said Black stone couldve been forged into something for all we know. 

Yes, many of us have gotten the H.p. Love craft nods. There's also nods to Lucifer and Lightbringer in that, should check out LML if you like that kinda thing. He's good with that stuff.

[falcotron]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The whole bit about stars is how ther're similar.

So, none of the actual stuff we're actually told about the religion matches the Faith at all, but you can make a connection from the word "star". This is about as good a connection as saying Dany must be the Bloodstone Emperor reborn because she called Drogo her sun-and-stars.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

There's also nods to Lucifer and Lightbringer in that, should check out LML if you like that kinda thing. He's good with that stuff.

See, that's exactly the kind of thing I don't like, at least not when trying to work out the actual mythology of GRRM's world or his story. Taking something that was clearly meant only as a winking reference, finding a tenuous connection to something else by ignoring most of what we know and instead focusing on a coincidence that you can tie together with Frazerian nonsense like "every culture in the real world worships the Moon as a mother goddess", and then building a whole new mythology out of it—that's a fun game, but it doesn't tell us anything about ASoIaF.

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, falcotron said:

So, none of the actual stuff we're actually told about the religion matches the Faith at all, but you can make a connection from the word "star". This is about as good a connection as saying Dany must be the Bloodstone Emperor reborn because she called Drogo her sun-and-stars.

See, that's exactly the kind of thing I don't like, at least not when trying to work out the actual mythology of GRRM's world or his story. Taking something that was clearly meant only as a winking reference, finding a tenuous connection to something else by ignoring most of what we know and instead focusing on a coincidence that you can tie together with Frazerian nonsense like "every culture in the real world worships the Moon as a mother goddess", and then building a whole new mythology out of it—that's a fun game, but it doesn't tell us anything about ASoIaF.

Cool. Enjoy

[Romaine3]

I've been thinking more about this. I've come to the conclusion that those who are good people and true believers of the 7 are living embodiments of the Gods that they worship. Maybe if I give a few examples, my theory might be a little easier to digest.

Mother: Catelyn Stark (while alive)   Father: Ser Davos Seaworth  Smith: Gendry  Crone: maybe Old Nan (if she worships Old Gods then no) maybe Grand dame Tyrell     The Maid: Sansa or Margery    Warrior: Brienne of Tarth    Stranger: Ser Barristan Selmy (he could be the Warrior, but he has put so many people in the grave that The Stranger secretly worships him!)

 

[falcotron]

8 minutes ago, Romaine3 said:

Stranger: Ser Barristan Selmy (he could be the Warrior, but he has put so many people in the grave that The Stranger secretly worships him!)

Secretly? Nah, I'll bet he's an open fanboy. When Andals die, they meet the Stranger, and they're shaking in their boots wondering what he wants with them, and then he says, "So, you were alive on Westeros. Did you ever meet Barristan Selmy? What was he like? I'll bet he's a great guy if you get to know him…" and the reason people move on to the next world instead of hanging around here is that they just get sick of talking about Barry.

[Romaine3]

16 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Secretly? Nah, I'll bet he's an open fanboy. When Andals die, they meet the Stranger, and they're shaking in their boots wondering what he wants with them, and then he says, "So, you were alive on Westeros. Did you ever meet Barristan Selmy? What was he like? I'll bet he's a great guy if you get to know him…" and the reason people move on to the next world instead of hanging around here is that they just get sick of talking about Barry.

Really though, I can talk about Ser Barristan Selmy a lot! Without going into any details, it was the show that made me really gain an interest in Selmy. I went from thinking that he was a great Knight, into, he's my favorite character period and deserves a 100ft Magic statue with a plaque that goes into great detail of his many deeds. If a person walks up and looks at the plaque and thinks "TLDR" a magic hand appears and slaps the bejesus out of them and makes them read it!

When he stood vigil over that boy's grave after the Tournament of the Hand is what kind of gave me "The Stranger" idea. All in all, Selmy is just an awesome character.