sergiosandres

Th dead dragon should not be able to breath fire/ice blast

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Why is anyone assuming Viserion was all the way dead, when the show has gone to great lengths to show us the difference between raising wights and making walkers? 

Viserion was touched by the NK like Craster's baby, and has the same eyes. The wights at Hardhome were all raised remotely and have different pale blue eyes where the iris matches the whites, not one giant iris like Walker eyes are. 

If Viserion was dead, they wouldn't have needed the chains, and he wouldn't be breathing blue fire. 

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6 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Why is anyone assuming Viserion was all the way dead, when the show has gone to great lengths to show us the difference between raising wights and making walkers? 

Viserion was touched by the NK like Craster's baby, and has the same eyes. The wights at Hardhome were all raised remotely and have different pale blue eyes where the iris matches the whites, not one giant iris like Walker eyes are. 

If Viserion was dead, they wouldn't have needed the chains, and he wouldn't be breathing blue fire. 

Cause his chest exploded, blood splattered everywhere and his dead corpse sunk into an ice lake and didn't come back up until the night King pulled his carcass up and resurrected him... 

 

If you choose to see it different, you may as well question why we think Stannis is dead in show. He's got a better chance at surviving than the dragon did. 

 

And the show writers have ignored (forgotten) the rules of their own show before. Spectacle trumps consistency now. 

Unless you can convincingly eexolain how vyserion survived, and held his breath for so long In freezing water, then you shouldn't expect folks to just take your word that he's still alive somehow cause you saw a scene of a baby being turned. 

Edited by MrJay

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12 minutes ago, MrJay said:

Cause his chest exploded, blood splattered everywhere and his dead corpse sunk into an ice lake and didn't come back up until the night King pulled his carcass up and resurrected him... 

 

If you choose to see it different, you may as well question why we think Stannis is dead in show. He's got a better chance at surviving than the dragon did. 

 

And the show writers have ignored (forgotten) the rules of their own show before. Spectacle trumps consistency now. 

Unless you can convincingly eexolain how vyserion survived, and held his breath for so long In freezing water, then you shouldn't expect folks to just take your word that he's still alive somehow cause you saw a scene of a baby being turned. 

To be fair, the lake was likely extremely cold.

There's a reason behind the saying "You're not dead until you're warm and dead."

Under the right circumstances, an extremely cold human can appear dead and still be fully and safely revived.

Figuring out how to do that reliably is a key component of functional cryogenic suspension. Sure, we can't pull it off, but I could suspend disbelief enough to think that the dragon was briefly in a state of functional cryo suspension - I very much doubt that anyone else could have safely revived Viserion, and he'd probably die right after anyways, but not quite technically dead beyond the point of safe revival would be within the Night King's capabilities.

 

Of course, the true answer is "Benioff and Weiss are shit writers", and "they wanted it to happen a specific so they made it happen that way"

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5 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

To be fair, the lake was likely extremely cold.

There's a reason behind the saying "You're not dead until you're warm and dead."

Under the right circumstances, an extremely cold human can appear dead and still be fully and safely revived.

Figuring out how to do that reliably is a key component of functional cryogenic suspension. Sure, we can't pull it off, but I could suspend disbelief enough to think that the dragon was briefly in a state of functional cryo suspension - I very much doubt that anyone else could have safely revived Viserion, and he'd probably die right after anyways, but not quite technically dead beyond the point of safe revival would be within the Night King's capabilities.

 

Of course, the true answer is "Benioff and Weiss are shit writers", and "they wanted it to happen a specific so they made it happen that way"

That Dragon was deader than dead. Honestly I can't imagine it being clearer than if the actors in the scene had just looked at the camera and said just so you know, he is dead. 

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10 hours ago, MrJay said:
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I dunno. This is skirting a level of explanation that most authors hate to get into. I love it...writing in such detail I mean. Plus, it's hard to explain exactly what is going on through live action vs written word. Perhaps it will be different in books.

Having said that, I can deal with the fire. What I cannot deal with is the already decaying wings. And the super sonic flight. (Okay it's not super sonic, but it's faster than the others which is garbage). In the show, we have seen that the weits and even WW's are comparable to humans. The Night's King doesn't really count because if someone strong enough to cannon a harpoon with that kind of power then he should be able to over power any human alive with ease.

Quote

point is that the dragon shouldn't be decaying so quick, he should not suddenly be 2-3 times faster than a living dragon. Not sure where the blue fire came from (I'm already pretending his chest doesn't have a gaping hole in it, don't push your luck show). It's like being an undead dragon wasn't cool enough and the show had to conjure up some super powers to for Vys.

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Sorry. I can't trust his judgement. I watched that show and dropped it the first episode.

 

I agree with all that nonsense with the Ice Dragon.  It really is complete shit.  The more I listen to others talk in depth about the show runners, the more they seems like Failed Screenwriters.  When ever they strayed away from the original vision it completely is a hill of shit.

Concerning Martin telling people to watch Last Kingdom I have not personally sampled that show and know nothing about it.  My point was that he was totally over with GOT after last season (rightfully so) and these people are riding his back of what he created............ and the show is more  popular than ever, everyone talks about it and wants to say it is the best show ever......... and that kind of makes my stomach turn because I'll come right out and say the show utterly sucks and the only reason I will watch S8 is because I have watched it all this time and want to see how it ends.

Like a train wreck you cannot stop but to watch. 

I have said these people "D&D" or whoever they are, they had a huge cache of mythology to draw from and they couldn't even squeeze out a COHERENT end to the thing.  INCOHERENT is literally THE word I keep hearing from people who dare to criticize the show.  It makes no sense anymore, it collapsed into an empty useless story that cleaved from it so many characters and places and things that was originally what made the show interesting.

So, is it even beyond speculation now?  That it rode the back of a wonderful premise but then could not take that premise even to an interesting conclusion.  I have heard more interesting fan fiction than what those people have given us that began to ROT starting in S6.

Can't help myself to say I really hate the show.  I think if there no book to compare it to, it would be a good show.  I would still like the character interaction and the action and the VERY LIMITED mythology we are seeing...... but knowing what I do, and seeing where it began from GRR vision, that makes it beyond stale and laughable as a whole.  Like I said, it is sad the show runners could not make a more COHERENT conclusion. 

The damned undead dragon is merely a symptom of this.  YES it is flying 3x faster than living dragon and YES the NK threw a javelin at the speed of light and YES one damn ice dragon was able to take down the most fortified ancient FORCE (The Wall) in all Westeros, so I guess it can just now consume Winterfell or even Harrenhaal with a single blast.  Flying with holes in wings when it was only dead for like 2 minutes before revived.  Decay?  Not so much.

I wonder why they didn't just give the whole dead army WINGS to fly over the Wall.  No Wings, No Problem. 

Prepare yourselves for a really REALLY bad grinding down S8 where you will be left scratching your head what you have been doing every Sunday night for 10 episodes for the last 8 years.  And all the $$ you spent on the blu ray collection.

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28 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

I agree with all that nonsense with the Ice Dragon.  It really is complete shit.  The more I listen to others talk in depth about the show runners, the more they seems like Failed Screenwriters.  When ever they strayed away from the original vision it completely is a hill of shit.

Concerning Martin telling people to watch Last Kingdom I have not personally sampled that show and know nothing about it.  My point was that he was totally over with GOT after last season (rightfully so) and these people are riding his back of what he created............ and the show is more  popular than ever, everyone talks about it and wants to say it is the best show ever......... and that kind of makes my stomach turn because I'll come right out and say the show utterly sucks and the only reason I will watch S8 is because I have watched it all this time and want to see how it ends.

Like a train wreck you cannot stop but to watch. 

I have said these people "D&D" or whoever they are, they had a huge cache of mythology to draw from and they couldn't even squeeze out a COHERENT end to the thing.  INCOHERENT is literally THE word I keep hearing from people who dare to criticize the show.  It makes no sense anymore, it collapsed into an empty useless story that cleaved from it so many characters and places and things that was originally what made the show interesting.

So, is it even beyond speculation now?  That it rode the back of a wonderful premise but then could not take that premise even to an interesting conclusion.  I have heard more interesting fan fiction than what those people have given us that began to ROT starting in S6.

Can't help myself to say I really hate the show.  I think if there no book to compare it to, it would be a good show.  I would still like the character interaction and the action and the VERY LIMITED mythology we are seeing...... but knowing what I do, and seeing where it began from GRR vision, that makes it beyond stale and laughable as a whole.  Like I said, it is sad the show runners could not make a more COHERENT conclusion. 

The damned undead dragon is merely a symptom of this.  YES it is flying 3x faster than living dragon and YES the NK threw a javelin at the speed of light and YES one damn ice dragon was able to take down the most fortified ancient FORCE (The Wall) in all Westeros, so I guess it can just now consume Winterfell or even Harrenhaal with a single blast.  Flying with holes in wings when it was only dead for like 2 minutes before revived.  Decay?  Not so much.

I wonder why they didn't just give the whole dead army WINGS to fly over the Wall.  No Wings, No Problem. 

Prepare yourselves for a really REALLY bad grinding down S8 where you will be left scratching your head what you have been doing every Sunday night for 10 episodes for the last 8 years.  And all the $$ you spent on the blu ray collection.

Couldn't have said it better myself. You post on the Rant and Rave threads much?

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37 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

Prepare yourselves for a really REALLY bad grinding down S8 where you will be left scratching your head what you have been doing every Sunday night for 10 episodes for the last 8 years.  And all the $$ you spent on the blu ray collection.

 

I'm not there yet but for me the show has reached Battlestar Galactica (reimagined) levels of hype and prediction. And much like BSG the signs are there that it will end in a big disappointement. If this is due to D&D or GRRM I do not know. I started rereading Dune recently and Dune is so much better that Asoiaf. It has clarity and foreshadowing at the same time. The first chapter of Dune is a summary of the book. If I would take the first chapter of Game of Thrones as a summary I would end with "everybody dies in the north, the survivors flee but die in the south." And this is the point where I am not sure if GRRM is up to the predictions. 

And the dragon is the biggest sign yet. It lacks a storytelling vision because it will at best time only be a speechless enemy and Emilia Clarke will have to act with thin air. There is nothing there to create tension. Could be a wind, could be an earthquake or could be a dragon.  

Edited by SirArthur

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On 9/13/2017 at 0:22 AM, SirArthur said:

I'm not there yet but for me the show has reached Battlestar Galactica (reimagined) levels of hype and prediction. And much like BSG the signs are there that it will end in a big disappointement.

BSG ended spectacularly.  Given the hype you speak of, I believe the way it terminated and closed up loose ends was far more efficient, effective, gratifying and REAL than what we are seeing in GOT.  It WAS almost impossible for BSG to live up to its hype, but it really actually did.  Not for some people, but for me as a passionate watcher of that show, I still love it even now.

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NK mended damaged tissue with ice. He froze together edges of wound on Viserion's neck.

On 13.09.2017 at 1:18 AM, ShadowKitteh said:

Why is anyone assuming Viserion was all the way dead, when the show has gone to great lengths to show us the difference between raising wights and making walkers? 

Viserion was touched by the NK like Craster's baby, and has the same eyes. The wights at Hardhome were all raised remotely and have different pale blue eyes where the iris matches the whites, not one giant iris like Walker eyes are.

He's a wight, not a White Walker. Walkers are made from newborn babies. And the reason why he wasn't raised remotely is because dragon is too big, also dragon is a magical creature, even dead it still has certain magical properties. So to effectively control dead dragon with winter magic, NK has to directly touch him, to infect him with zombie-wight virus.

Maybe winter magic works exactly like zombie viruses. NK can remotely raise those people that were killed by wights or by White Walkers. Those people were touched by virus carriers. And NK remotely controls that virus, and all its spores. So after someone is infected by winter magic, he can remotely revive and control them. But he had to directly touch the dragon, because dragon was killed by ice-spear, thus it wasn't infected.

This theory also explains how NK was able to find Bran in 3ER's cave after he marked/infected him, and how he was able to go thru protection barrier - because winter magic spores were already inside that cave thru Bran. Though Bran is alive, so he is not a wight, yet. But he is a virus carrier, so if he will die, he will turn into a wight.

Edited by Megorova

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If he didn't succumb to his wounds, then I'd expect Viserion to drown before they hauled him out of the water.
I'd say he's a wight, and not a WW.

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It's weird being so technical about fantasy. The undead. Night King. Fire breathing dragons. And even the Wall that contains magical properties in its construction. You can't use our own ideas of science and physics to apply to this world Planetos. Simply ask what Qyburn thinks.

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4 hours ago, Wolfgirly said:

It's weird being so technical about fantasy. The undead. Night King. Fire breathing dragons. And even the Wall that contains magical properties in its construction. You can't use our own ideas of science and physics to apply to this world Planetos. Simply ask what Qyburn thinks.

I dont think so. I am Naturally curious about such things. Like my dragon example. Dragons fly in fantasy, but in real life such a creature could not fly. So how? 

 

Solution. The gasses that fuel their fire is also lighter than air. That plus hollow bones makes it reasonable to think it could fly. Restrictions and explanations make fantasy feel more real and at the end of the day the suspension of disbelief is the goal. 

Sure. You can just say "lol fantasy bro" and have a rotted wing dragon with a hole in its chest fly faster and use hotter flames than a living healthy beast. 

Or, you can make that dead dragon fly a bit slower, but have unlimited endurance and stamina, as well as be damn near unkillable, and breath some kind of necrotic acid due to the nature of its undead state, and have it be very plausible and believable. 

 

I think the latter is better and shows more creativity as well as helps me actually think that just maybe such a thing could be possible. Otherwise, what's the point of even having a living dragon if undead ones are superior in every way? Aside from Daeny caring for her "children" there is none. Dead = better because reasons. 

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On 17/09/2017 at 2:58 PM, MrJay said:

I think the latter is better and shows more creativity as well as helps me actually think that just maybe such a thing could be possible. Otherwise, what's the point of even having a living dragon if undead ones are superior in every way? Aside from Daeny caring for her "children" there is none. Dead = better because reasons. 

It's just fantasy. Lets not get too bogged down with it.

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59 minutes ago, Wolfgirly said:

It's just fantasy. Lets not get too bogged down with it.

And this is the attitude that keeps fantasy stuck in its literary ghetto.

'Oh it's just fantasy, shit like internal consistency shouldn't matter.'

'Oh, it's just fantasy, if the writers want a massive pirate-versus-ninja fight despite there being no ninjas in the universe because it's cool, who cares, it's a fantasy!'

'Oh, it's just fantasy, the writers are allowed to appeal to the lowest common denominator because sex jokes that are funny to thirteen year old boys is just appealing to the only audience fantasy could ever hope to be unironically enjoyed by!'

'Oh, it's just fantasy, if the twist ending is that everyone turns into snowmen of George Takei, that's just really good writing for fantasy because it's a SHOCKING TWIST™ and fantasies are usually too shit to have twists!'

Even in fantasy, having plausible Watsonian reasons for things happening should matter. Cynics say it doesn't, because lolfantasyisashitgenreforteenageboysandnerdsintheirmothersbasementsamirite, and credit to GoT where it's due, the earlier seasons were actually making people question whether we should at least try to hold fantasy to higher standards and get it out of the ghetto. It's a shame D & D employ the same excuse you do these days and have fallen back into relying on the same tired tropes that throw fantasy into the ghetto in the first place.

Edited by Beardy the Wildling

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57 minutes ago, Wolfgirly said:

It's just fantasy. Lets not get too bogged down with it.

I remember when this was the way people thought about comic book shows/movies. Glad we cut that out and got The Dark Knight.

And what you call "Bogged down", I call fleshing out a living and believable world where readers can read and be like "Huh, that actually makes sense."  If that is too "deep" for you then that is fine. God's know that there are plenty of books and shows to cater to that mindset.

 

Edited by MrJay

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55 minutes ago, MrJay said:

I remember when this was the way people thought about comic book shows/movies. Glad we cut that out and got The Dark Knight.

And what you call "Bogged down", I call fleshing out a living and believable world where readers can read and be like "Huh, that actually makes sense."  If that is too "deep" for you then that is fine. God's know that there are plenty of books and shows to cater to that mindset.

 

It is fantasy, overall. That was the TV show. The books haven't yet come out or been punlished/finished. There are no rules in fantasy. And the other world, Planetos, Ice and Fire world, is so vivid it's real enough for me. But to try and rationalise about the dead dragon coming back as a wight is pointless until the book is released in future. The TV show diverts so much from the books.

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1 hour ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

And this is the attitude that keeps fantasy stuck in its literary ghetto.

'Oh it's just fantasy, shit like internal consistency shouldn't matter.'

'Oh, it's just fantasy, if the writers want a massive pirate-versus-ninja fight despite there being no ninjas in the universe because it's cool, who cares, it's a fantasy!'

'Oh, it's just fantasy, the writers are allowed to appeal to the lowest common denominator because sex jokes that are funny to thirteen year old boys is just appealing to the only audience fantasy could ever hope to be unironically enjoyed by!'

'Oh, it's just fantasy, if the twist ending is that everyone turns into snowmen of George Takei, that's just really good writing for fantasy because it's a SHOCKING TWIST™ and fantasies are usually too shit to have twists!'

Even in fantasy, having plausible Watsonian reasons for things happening should matter. Cynics say it doesn't, because lolfantasyisashitgenreforteenageboysandnerdsintheirmothersbasementsamirite, and credit to GoT where it's due, the earlier seasons were actually making people question whether we should at least try to hold fantasy to higher standards and get it out of the ghetto. It's a shame D & D employ the same excuse you do these days and have fallen back into relying on the same tired tropes that throw fantasy into the ghetto in the first place.

Beard,

I've loved fantasy since I was very young. I understand people like to explain off events, but at the moment it happened in the TV show, and hasn't been read of in the books because Winds of Winter and a further book hasn't been released. Fantasy has never been for the masses, until everyone watched Game of Thrones. I understand most people really watched it for the nudity. But try and get them to read any of the books, and they haven't. You don't know me, at all, and you're tarnishing me for some reason. You might have it in for someone else, but don't take it out on other people.

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30 minutes ago, Wolfgirly said:

But to try and rationalise about the dead dragon coming back as a wight is pointless until the book is released in future. 

So we have a magical ice - fire equivalent and when a fire creature comes back as an ice creature with fire abilities it's just "Nah, it's magic Bro." ? Maybe, but it somehow makes the entire series pointless. 

I mean come on. An ice dragon would have been fine. 

Edited by SirArthur

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2 hours ago, Wolfgirly said:

Beard,

I've loved fantasy since I was very young. I understand people like to explain off events, but at the moment it happened in the TV show, and hasn't been read of in the books because Winds of Winter and a further book hasn't been released. Fantasy has never been for the masses, until everyone watched Game of Thrones. I understand most people really watched it for the nudity. But try and get them to read any of the books, and they haven't. You don't know me, at all, and you're tarnishing me for some reason. You might have it in for someone else, but don't take it out on other people.

I did say 'credit where it is due' regarding Game of Thrones in its earlier seasons opening people's minds to fantasy as being more than just juvenile teenage boy genre ghetto shit, but unfortunately, now they're out of GRRM material, they're only reinforcing the stereotypes that make fantasy, in the masses' eyes, worthless as a true art form.

As for you, I wasn't accusing you of not being a fan of fantasy; many people say 'it's a fantasy, don't think about it' as a well-meaning attempt to shield their beloved genre from criticism. But the problem with that is, if a genre isn't worthy of being held to the same critical standards as proper literature, then it's been undermined as an art form. Ironically, by trying to shield the genre from criticism, you reinforce the same cynical thoughts a thousand fantasy detractors have made before you, saying that fantasy is a silly boys' genre that can't hold up to criticism, so why bother counting it as a worthy art form at all?

The moment you tell someone 'not to think about' a certain genre, you throw it in the ghetto, well-meaning or not.

Edited by Beardy the Wildling

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1 hour ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

I did say 'credit where it is due' regarding Game of Thrones in its earlier seasons opening people's minds to fantasy as being more than just juvenile teenage boy genre ghetto shit, but unfortunately, now they're out of GRRM material, they're only reinforcing the stereotypes that make fantasy, in the masses' eyes, worthless as a true art form.

As for you, I wasn't accusing you of not being a fan of fantasy; many people say 'it's a fantasy, don't think about it' as a well-meaning attempt to shield their beloved genre from criticism. But the problem with that is, if a genre isn't worthy of being held to the same critical standards as proper literature, then it's been undermined as an art form. Ironically, by trying to shield the genre from criticism, you reinforce the same cynical thoughts a thousand fantasy detractors have made before you, saying that fantasy is a silly boys' genre that can't hold up to criticism, so why bother counting it as a worthy art form at all?

The moment you tell someone 'not to think about' a certain genre, you throw it in the ghetto, well-meaning or not.

I am still waiting for an explanation on the food. The food in westeros is the same as european food even though that is impossible since the seasons are completely different so the plant lives and animals that would have evolved on westeros would also be completely different. You can’t really chalk that up to magic. 

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