sergiosandres

Th dead dragon should not be able to breath fire/ice blast

54 posts in this topic

27 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

I am still waiting for an explanation on the food. The food in westeros is the same as european food even though that is impossible since the seasons are completely different so the plant lives and animals that would have evolved on westeros would also be completely different. You can’t really chalk that up to magic. 

Yeah, I'll admit that's an objective failing (and a missed opportunity) of GRRM: Literally all plants would have to be hardy evergreens, or have long periods of dormancy to survive. Animals would have interesting, peculiar lifestyles as well, and would have evolved in an unusual way. At any rate, they'd be very different with their gathering of food and the ecology would be a fascinating topic for worldbuilding.

It's extremely jarring in a universe that's otherwise realistic, especially in the books, that there's this big, gaping implausibility that we're supposed to shrug off and attribute to magic.

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Just now, Beardy the Wildling said:

Yeah, I'll admit that's an objective failing (and a missed opportunity) of GRRM: Literally all plants would have to be hardy evergreens, or have long periods of dormancy to survive. Animals would have interesting, peculiar lifestyles as well, and would have evolved in an unusual way. At any rate, they'd be very different with their gathering of food and the ecology would be a fascinating topic for worldbuilding.

It's extremely jarring in a universe that's otherwise realistic, especially in the books, that there's this big, gaping implausibility that we're supposed to shrug off and attribute to magic.

Lol. Yea. Magic = things the auhor writes that betray a lack of understanding of science 

I found that weird the first time i read the books. 

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18 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Lol. Yea. Magic = things the auhor writes that betray a lack of understanding of science 

I found that weird the first time i read the books. 

And we all know why the food is mostly unchanged from regular food with the variety of a copiously globalised-looking supply: George RR Martin loves to write lavish food scenes. It's self-fanservice :P

Once again, a problem arises with the critical value of a piece because there's no Watsonian explanation, but there is a big gaping Doylist one.

Edited by Beardy the Wildling

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Well, if Megorova has taught me anything it's that Earth =/= Planetos, so plantlife works differently (albeit exactly the same) in Planetos and so has adapted to the long seasons. No further explanation needed because of reasons Planetos. ;)

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9 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

And we all know why the food is mostly unchanged from regular food: George RR Martin loves to write lavish food scenes. It's self-fanservice :P

Once again, a problem arises with the critical value of a piece because there's no Watsonian explanation, but there is a big gaping Doylist one.

I could see George going to town on a bucket of fried chicken every time he is writing about food. 

There is indeed always a Doylist explanation. I am a little more forgiving of no Watsonian explanations for certain things like the plant and animal life not being plausible or the undead dragon having a hole in the wings etc.

i do agree with george that its all about the human heart in conflict with itself. If you write interesting characters and put them in situations where they have to make difficult choices and see how they handle that, grow and evolve then that can make up for a lot. 

At the end of the day that is why i find ASOIF interesting. Its not because the world is realistic or not. The truth is its not right down to its basic biology and physics. Its not because of the way travel time works or how it depicts politics. Again its not. Institutions in general don’t last that long let alone families. 

Its about how Daenerys Targaryen struggles with having more power than anyone should rightfully have. Its about how Cersei Lannister struggles with the injustices done to her and how she responds by becoming bitter, resentful and what decisions that leads her to. Its about how Jon Snow finds the inner strength to keep fighting in the face of impossible odds. Its about how Tyrion lannister navigates his loyalties to his queen on the one hand with his identity as a lannister on the other. 

In some ways an unrealistic world is a good thing because it allows you to put human characters in situations that are truly unique and see them make human decisions. 

Of course, this is wholly subjective and its just why I personally find it interesting.

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2 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Well, if Megorova has taught me anything it's that Earth =/= Planetos, so plantlife works differently (albeit exactly the same) in Planetos and so has adapted to the long seasons. No further explanation needed because of reasons Planetos. ;)

Lol. Hey.... Megorova has a point. In this case it really comes down to  that. 

I am not even sure we can assume a 24 hour day. Literally if Planetos was another planet, the chances of it having a 24 hour day is miniscule because that would mean the relationship between it and its sun is the exact same as ours and our sun....  the odds of that are zilch. 

Speaking of, what are the odds that humans evolved exactly the same on two different planets? Is planetos even in our universe or is it in some multiverse out there?.... at a certiain point the whole thing is just implausible 

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7 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

I could see George going to town on a bucket of fried chicken every time he is writing about food. 

There is indeed always a Doylist explanation. I am a little more forgiving of no Watsonian explanations for certain things like the plant and animal life not being plausible or the undead dragon having a hole in the wings etc.

i do agree with george that its all about the human heart in conflict with itself. If you write interesting characters and put them in situations where they have to make difficult choices and see how they handle that, grow and evolve then that can make up for a lot. 

At the end of the day that is why i find ASOIF interesting. Its not because the world is realistic or not. The truth is its not right down to its basic biology and physics. Its not because of the way travel time works or how it depicts politics. Again its not. Institutions in general don’t last that long let alone families. 

Its about how Daenerys Targaryen struggles with having more power than anyone should rightfully have. Its about how Cersei Lannister struggles with the injustices done to her and how she responds by becoming bitter, resentful and what decisions that leads her to. Its about how Jon Snow finds the inner strength to keep fighting in the face of impossible odds. Its about how Tyrion lannister navigates his loyalties to his queen on the one hand with his identity as a lannister on the other. 

In some ways an unrealistic world is a good thing because it allows you to put human characters in situations that are truly unique and see them make human decisions. 

Of course, this is wholly subjective and its just why I personally find it interesting.

I think for me, world realism is crucial to the story insofar as how much it affects culture and thus how characters behave. If the setting is, say, a patriarchy, consistently keep it as such and don't have random disappearances of it for fanservicey 'woman on top' schticks, but instead keep consistent and explore why this patriarchy's fucking toxic.

Similarly, realism is very, very crucial in my eyes with regards to what consequences one can expect, and thus from there, the conflict and stories that can branch out and result from it. I agree, Watsonian explanations don't strictly need to exist for each and every thing ever, but what does need to be established is consistency and if there is purely only a Doylist explanation for shit going down, it'd best be for a damn good reason (such as to explore a larger theme of the work and not, say, because the writers favour a certain character or want to shit on another, like in the case of Ramsay Sue).

However, it still isn't a valid statement to say 'it's fantasy, don't think about it'. As I said, once you tell someone that a genre is inherently less able to be critically thought about, you throw it in the ghetto.

Edited by Beardy the Wildling

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Just now, Beardy the Wildling said:

I think for me, world realism is crucial to the story insofar as how much it affects culture and thus how characters behave. If the setting is, say, a patriarchy, consistently keep it as such and don't have random disappearances of it for fanservicey 'woman on top' schticks, but instead keep consistent and explore why this patriarchy's fucking toxic.

Similarly, realism is very, very crucial in my eyes with regards to what consequences one can expect, and thus from there, the conflict and stories that can branch out and result from it. I agree, Watsonian explanations don't strictly need to exist for each and every thing ever, but what does need to be established is consistency and if there is purely only a Doylist explanation for shit going down, it'd best be for a damn good reason (not, say, because the writers favour a certain character or want to shit on another, like in the case of Ramsay Sue).

However, it still isn't a valid statement to say 'it's fantasy, don't think about it'. As I said, once you tell someone that a genre is inherently less able to be critically thought about, you throw it in the ghetto.

I do agree consistency is key. Whatever rules you establish in your little universe, should stick. 

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5 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Speaking of, what are the odds that humans evolved exactly the same on two different planets? Is planetos even in our universe or is it in some multiverse out there?.... at a certiain point the whole thing is just implausible 

No don't! 
Don't open that can of worms! :P

Edit: Actually I recall GRRM stating somewhere that Planetos is basically an alternative earth. If this where sci-fi we'd say it's an Earth in an alternative dimension. So if that's true, then the humans (and other wildlife) evolved more or less the same as it did "here". It doesn't explain the seasons however.

Edited by MinscS2

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7 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

No don't! 
Don't open that can of worms! :P

Edit: Actually I recall GRRM stating somewhere that Planetos is basically an alternative earth. If this where sci-fi we'd say it's an Earth in an alternative dimension. So if that's true, then the humans (and other wildlife) evolved more or less the same as it did "here". It doesn't explain the seasons however.

Yeah, the 'evolution' part of the World of Ice and Fire just flat-out doesn't add up, animals and humans both. Some subscribe to the 'Planetos is post-apocalyptic' theory, which, while cool and fits in with GRRM's sci-fi works... yeah, I don't think GRRM intended it. If GRRM finishes his works before he dies then maybe I'll be proven wrong, but as it is, I just don't think he fully thought through the implications.

Edited by Beardy the Wildling

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7 hours ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

However, it still isn't a valid statement to say 'it's fantasy, don't think about it'.

I think a lot of people miss a crucial distinction.

As GRRM has explained, magic should be a dark and mysterious thing that's beyond our comprehension; otherwise, it's just science. And you can take that further to the Lovecraftian view where the underlying truth of the universe is dark and mysterious and beyond our comprehension.

But most of the day-to-day world still is within human comprehension, and still has to make sense. Otherwise, you don't have anything to contrast magic with, you don't have a recognizable world for your characters to have recognizable reactions to and struggles with, and you don't even have a believable setting that people can imagine.

And if those things make sense to the characters in-universe, they have to make sense to us. Otherwise, we can't understand the characters and their society, so what's the point of reading about them?

So, even if the answer to "How did Dany survive the bonfire if Targs aren't immune to fire?" really is just "It's fantasy, don't think about it", that doesn't mean you can use the same answer for "How do people plant vineyards in a world where the seasons last 6 years?" Because then you aren't saying this is a fantasy story, you're saying this isn't a story.

(Of course a few holes in the world building are acceptable, as long as it isn't a world built entirely of holes.)

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Here are important questions about undead Viserion that have serious plot ramifications. 

1.) Is he like a wight that fire can easily destroy him or do his dragon scales still protect him from flame the same way they would if he were alive? Even if they protect him from flame, he has a huge gapping wound, does that present an easy target for a fire blast kill shot or a dragonglass tipped spear to pierce through 

2.) is there anything special about that flame or will Drogon and Rhaegal’s scales easily protect them from it as if it was just any other dragon 

obviously they can write it anyway they want. But if that fight degenerates into a scratching and biting affair because the relationship to fire is the same as if alive its going to be vicious. 

It would be pretty bad ass to see Jon leap off Rhegal and stab the Night King through the eye ala Daemon and Aemond Targ in the Dance. Then Drogon just roasts the NK for the final kill shot. Not sure how the final battle can get any more epic than some sort of dragon vs dragon sequence with mid air sword acrobatics. Which probably means its going to happen. 

Edited by jcmontea

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13 hours ago, jcmontea said:

It would be pretty bad ass to see Jon leap off Rhegal and stab the Night King through the eye ala Daemon and Aemond Targ in the Dance. Then Drogon just roasts the NK for the final kill shot. Not sure how the final battle can get any more epic than some sort of dragon vs dragon sequence with mid air sword acrobatics. Which probably means its going to happen. 

Yeah, that would be pure win from D&D's point of view. And it would be hard for anyone to complain, even us book snobs (anyone who doesn't think "Holy shit, he's Daemon!" is not a real book snob).

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29 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Yeah, that would be pure win from D&D's point of view. And it would be hard for anyone to complain, even us book snobs (anyone who doesn't think "Holy shit, he's Daemon!" is not a real book snob).

Right? I don’t want to get too wedded to my own mental fan fiction, but a 2v1 Dragon Dance in the sky incorporating the Daemon jump with a followup Drogon coup-de-grace would be incredible. 

You said it perfectly too. It would be awesome spectactle that even book snobs would appreciate since it’s literally from the book (except in my fan fic version Drogon, Rhaegal, Dany and Jon survive) a combination of Daemon vs Aemond and Rhaena vs Aemond and Aegon. 

If they wanted to up the epic factor they could add in that the Night King had been flying around the entire South raising every body from the dead so that literally every place is the South is teeming with dead people and if they don’t take him out now then eveyone dies. To make it bitter can have 20-50% of the living wiped out before they kill NK.

Ok. Thats enough fan fic from me. 

Edited by jcmontea

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