sansa, arya, and dany

[jcmontea]

40 minutes ago, JonSansaBranArya said:

I will leave this here 

 

At this end of the day appreciating art and characters is a subjective experience. If this guy doesn't feel moved by Dany's arc than he doesn't feel moved by Dany's arc. 

But to say she didn't earn anything or that Jon Snow earned everything is just wrong. Jon Snow was resurected from the dead. He didn't deserve that. He just was. Jon Snow was treated specially by Stannis because he was Ned's bastard son. To say he earned everything is just an exteme position that is not justified by what we saw on screen. And lets not even open the can of worms that his sister Sansa really won back the North from the Boltons and he was named King in the North just because he was a man. 

Now certainly there is an element of Dany getting out of problems because she is practically a god like figure with both her dragons and her fire immunity in the show. But so what? I think the fundamental question is what did Daenerys do with the gifts she was given. She decided to use her power to literally make the world a better place by abolishing slavery and by her decision this year to save Westeros from the White Walkers. 

In a world where we all die and where the only thing that matters and that defines us are the choices we make, Dany chose to transform her world for the better. That in my view is both why she is a special character and why so many in universe follow her. 

[JonSansaBranArya]

1 hour ago, jcmontea said:

Are we being serious? 

Literally Daenerys destroyed slavery and is going to save Westeros from the White Walkers. Even if she dies in the fighting, she is going down as one of the most important figures in Planetos history. 

At this point the only question is whether she is a Moses figure who doesn't get to enter the promised land and see the new world she made possible or is she like Augustus who also creates a new political order that leads to a couple centuries of stability.

Dany didn't destroy slavery. She put an end to it temporarily, I can almost guarantee the lands she freed in Essos are going back to type. 

[jcmontea]

3 minutes ago, JonSansaBranArya said:

Dany didn't destroy slavery. She put an end to it temporarily, I can almost guarantee the lands she freed in Essos are going back to type. 

Maybe. Nothing is permanent in the world and things can always slide back to where they were. But based on where they left things in the show, unless the dragons die fighting the walkers, its unlikely the masters will try again for the foreseable future. 

[El Guapo]

7 hours ago, jcmontea said:

There are lines in the book that talk about what are Kings for if not to protect people. That is why one of the titles is even protector of the realm. 

To provide security is a key piece of the job. 

Indeed.

"Why do the gods make kings and queens, if not to protect the ones who can't protect themselves?"

-Daenerys Targaryen (ASOS)

[El Guapo]

11 hours ago, Megorova said:

Dany isn't higher up than Jon. And never was.

Crown line: 1. King Aerys, 2. King's first son Crown Prince Rhaegar, 3. Rhaegar's first son Aegon I son of Elia Martell, 4. Rhaegar's second son Aegon II Jon Snow, 5. Rhaegar's daughter Rhaenys, 6. King Aerys' second son Prince Viserys, 7. King Aerys' daughter Daenerys.

King's first son is first in line after him, and king's other children can have a claim over throne, only if first son dies without leaving any heirs. So even though Rhaenys is only daughter of crown prince, while Dany is king's daugher, Rhaenys is higher than Dany.

Even if Aerys had only daughters, even then Dany would be last in line. First would be oldest daugher, then her male children, then her female children, then king's second daughter, then her male children, and after them her female children, and only after all of them - Dany. 

Yes but when that first son died, he named his second son Viserys as his heir. That son would later be crowned on Dragonstone upon his fathers death and later name his sister as his heir. Technically speaking Dany bases her claim to the throne on Viserys being the previous king.

That is the books of course where Martin is purposely muddying the waters of the Targaryen succession. I doubt the show will even bring this up. 

[WSmith84]

I think there will be some tension between the four of them. Sansa and Arya will likely think that one of the reasons Jon bent the knee is that he was thinking with his penis heart. And, honestly, who's to say they would be entirely wrong? If Jon bending the knee leads to problems, I could see there being some genuine fallout. There might also some tension once it is revealed that Jon is the rightful heir, particularly if Dany mentions that several times during her stay at Winterfell.

Of course, there's going to be a lot more fallout between Jon and Sam when Sam finds out his best friend is shagging the woman who killed his brother and father by dragonfire.

[snow is the man]

I think arya will like her but sansa will be angry that she had jon bend the knee and likely jealous as well.

[MinscS2]

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

I'm not Dany hater, I'm Jon x Dany shipper. But lets be fair - she's a weakling, and a pushover. Was with her brother Viserys, and still is. Also her major acomplishments are often result of someone else's efforts and wisdom. Examples:

1. When she got married with Drogo, and he was repeatedly raping her, it was one of her maids' idea, that she should seduce him. After receiving a lesson of seduction from that maid, Dany wrapped Drogo aroud her little finger, and made him kill her abusive brother, and to promise her to conquer Westeros for her.
Dany didn't make Drogo kill Viserys.
Drogo killed Viserys because he stormed into a tent and threatened to kill Drogos wife and unborn son right in front of him.

2. After Drogo fell in coma, Dany was unable to convince his blood riders and majority of his khalasar Dothrakis to stay and serve to her. Those who stayed were single women, children, and elderly, or wounded - all those that were unneeded in khalasar. Only few of Drogo's capable fighters stayed behind with Dany.
That's hardly Dany's fault at the time though is it?
The Dothraki follow strength only. She was a little 17 year old girl without real strength, and her oratorical skills would've made no difference.

3. When they reached Astapor gates, she was unable to convince 12 to let her people in. And only after she already lost in their debates, the 13th took her side, and convinced others to let her thru.
You mean Qarth, not Astapor.
That's true. She can't win every battle (nor does she), but in her defense, the 13 seemed like arrogant pricks. They where more than willing to let her and her followers die for no other reason than...being pricks? In the book the 13 are more than willing to let her into the city. I blame D&D for creation tension when there really is none.

4. When she was in Meereen, Daario convinced her to ambush Astapor and Yunkai. And just a few minutes after his departure Jorah convinced her not to do that. In span of one morning, even before breakfast, her own opinion on that matter was overrun by not one, but two others. Such a pushover.
Daario was always the devil on her shoulder, and Jorah was the angel. Daenerys has proven over and over that she's more inclined to do the right thing. Technically, Daario didn't convince her either, she already wanted to do what he suggested, he just pushed her. Jorah however made a very good argument as to why what they wanted to do was wrong. If anything this scene highlights the fact that Dany is willing to listen to advice and reconsider her ideas. It makes her humble, it doesn't make her a pushover.

5. She was against continuing tradition of fighting pits, but eventually she not only agreed to host there a grandiose tournament, but also married with a person who was pushing her to accept that tradition.
Yes...and? Even Tyrion said that it was "wise" of her to do so. It's another case where Dany humbles herself for the greater good. Being able to reconsider your stance and admit that you where wrong is not a weak trait. It's a strong trait. The world would be a much better place if more rulers and leaders did this.

6. She convinced King in the North to bend the knee, but only after he convinced her to postpone her Crown Battle, and to fight in his war.
I genuinely don't understand the point you're trying to make here.

7. When they met with Cersei, nearly all talking was done by Jon and Tyrion. She herself, supposedly a great orator, barely said anything.
Dany doesn't know Cersei, but she knows that Cersei wants her dead. Tyrion knows Cersei however, and knows (sort of) what buttons to push in order to make her respond in the way they hoped she would respond. Having Tyrion do the talking during the meeting was actually a wise move. Cerseis very first comment to Daenerys ("we've been here for some time") was meant to insult and annoy. By simply apologizing (which infuriated Cersei more than a insult would have) and shifting the discussion to be between Cersei and Tyrion instead, Dany avoided further bickering. She's only half of Cerseis age but proved to be the grown up in this scenario.

And so on.

Yeah I'm not really seeing how Dany is a weakling and a pushover. As someone else said, you really had to push it to take the facts and make her appear in the most negative view possible.

[Deminelle]

4 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

I think there will be some tension between the four of them. Sansa and Arya will likely think that one of the reasons Jon bent the knee is that he was thinking with his penis heart. And, honestly, who's to say they would be entirely wrong? If Jon bending the knee leads to problems, I could see there being some genuine fallout. There might also some tension once it is revealed that Jon is the rightful heir, particularly if Dany mentions that several times during her stay at Winterfell.

Of course, there's going to be a lot more fallout between Jon and Sam when Sam finds out his best friend is shagging the woman who killed his brother and father by dragonfire.

Well, like Bronn said "in the end it's all about cocks". 

[jcmontea]

2 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Yeah I'm not really seeing how Dany is a weakling and a pushover. As someone else said, you really had to push it to take the facts and make her appear in the most negative view possible.

Totally agree. This line of argument makes no sense. People who are weaklings and pushovers do not unite the entire Dothraki who only respect strength into one khalasar. 

The speech she gives Jon is factually correct. This is not what a weakling and pushover lives through.

"We fled before Robert's assassins could find us. Robert was your father's best friend, no? I wonder if your father knew his best friend sent assassins to murder a baby girl in her crib. Not that it matters now of course. I spent my life in foreign lands. So many men have tried to kill me. I don't remember all of their names. I have been sold like a brood mare. I have been chained and betrayed, raped and defiled. Do you know what kept me standing through all those years in exile? Faith. Not in any gods. Not in myths and legends. In myself. In Daenerys Targaryen. The world hadn't seen a dragon in centuries until my children were born. The Dothraki hadn't crossed the sea. Any sea."

[JonSansaBranArya]

I will go on record and say, Dany is NOT a weak character. .Some of the words used to describe certain characters really perplexes me. 

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

On 05/09/2017 at 7:47 PM, MinscS2 said:

it was clearly Daenerys idea to go wighthunting.
It was clearly Daenerys who pushed Jon to join in on this great plan.
It was clearly Daenerys idea to have them travel by foot instead of by horse.
It was clearly Daenerys idea to only bring 7 men and some redshirts.
It was clearly Daenerys idea to have them get caught on the middle of a frozen lake.
It was clearly Daenerys intent to have Viserion die to a enemy she has never faced before.
It was clearly Daenerys intent to have the Nightking win in the end.

Ah, if only she had stayed at Dragonstone. This show would've been much more entertaining if Jon, Tormund, Jorah, Beric, Sandor and Gendry had died in episode 6, don't you agree? Both the audience and the northerners would've loved her for it.

...oops, it seems I just reached the daily sarcasm quota. Shame, I really enjoy reading your posts where you continue to blame Daenerys for everything wrong that happened in this season. Hmmm, guess I wasn't entirely out of sarcasm. 
 

It does not matter. It is her dragon. It didn't get there without her help. She could have chosen not to go. She could have considered for ten seconds that putting the most dangerous creatures in the world in the path of something that can raise the dead is a bad plan. Just because Tyrion and Jon also messed up doesn't change that. Yes, having those characters die would be sad, the writers shouldn't have put them in that situation anyway. But in-universe, its better those 6 die than have the wall fall and have the Kingdoms exterminated. Don't you think?

 

She may have good intentions. She may not have meant for it to happen. It does not matter.

[jcmontea]

7 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

It does not matter. It is her dragon. It didn't get there without her help. She could have chosen not to go. She could have considered for ten seconds that putting the most dangerous creatures in the world in the path of something that can raise the dead is a bad plan. Just because Tyrion and Jon also messed up doesn't change that. Yes, having those characters die would be sad, the writers shouldn't have put them in that situation anyway. But in-universe, its better those 6 die than have the wall fall and have the Kingdoms exterminated. Don't you think?

 

She may have good intentions. She may not have meant for it to happen. It does not matter.

She could have and from a purely strategic perspective that would have made more sense. Also everything is easy in hindsight. Who would have thought the Night King was a world class javelin thrower. 

But more implortantly she did not make that choice. She is not the type of person to allow people she cares about to die when she can do something about it. That is not who she is. 

This story is all about choice and how our choices define us. In the heat of the moment Daenerys made a choice that defined who she is.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

4 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

She could have and from a purely strategic perspective that would have made more sense. Also everything is easy in hindsight. Who would have thought the Night King was a world class javelin thrower. 

But more implortantly she did not make that choice. She is not the type of person to allow people she cares about to die when she can do something about it. That is not who she is. 

This story is all about choice and how our choices define us. In the heat of the moment Daenerys made a choice that defined who she is.

The main point is, we can banter back and forth whether we approve or not til the cows come home but its how she sells that to others. I don't see how any of that mess up can be explained. And its not just Dany, I think Jon will and should suffer the consequences too. This is a story where breaking a marriage promise gets you, your mother, your allies and your armies murdered. We are seeing characters do much worse now

[jcmontea]

4 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

The main point is, we can banter back and forth whether we approve or not til the cows come home but its how she sells that to others. I don't see how any of that mess up can be explained. And its not just Dany, I think Jon will and should suffer the consequences too. This is a story where breaking a marriage promise gets you, your mother, your allies and your armies murdered. We are seeing characters do much worse now

What is the counter argument though? 

Who is going to argue with her about anything? What are they going to say? We really think it was a stupid decision saving our King. Please take your two dragons, 10,000 unsullied and 100,000 dothraki back to essos and let us deal with this 100,000 undead army with an ice drsgon with our 10-20k men. We got this. 

Beggars can't be chosers. They have no choice. 

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

22 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

What is the counter argument though? 

Who is going to argue with her about anything? What are they going to say? We really think it was a stupid decision saving our King. Please take your two dragons, 10,000 unsullied and 100,000 dothraki back to essos and let us deal with this 100,000 undead army with an ice drsgon with our 10-20k men. We got this. 

Beggars can't be chosers. They have no choice. 

They can get rid of Jon and declare Sansa Queen. What exactly can Dany do? Sure we talk about the North being at the greatest threat but Dany has seen it. She can't pull a Cersei and expect to win by waiting for the North to be exterminated. The North has as much leverage as she does. Its the same choice Jon has, she can fight them living or fight them with the dead.  There are bigger things than her pride and her sense of birthright.

[jcmontea]

13 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

They can get rid of Jon and declare Sansa Queen. What exactly can Dany do? Sure we talk about the North being at the greatest threat but Dany has seen it. She can't pull a Cersei and expect to win by waiting for the North to be exterminated. The North has as much leverage as she does. Its the same choice Jon has, she can fight them living or fight them with the dead.  There are bigger things than her pride and her sense of birthright.

Ok. We will see.

[Anarres]

On 04/09/2017 at 10:50 PM, Cron said:

But...it's NOT her claim.  By all the rules she claims to be playing by, it is NOT her claim, whether she has wanted to be queen or not.

It doesn't matter how much Dany may want it, she is NOT the rightful heir, period, and we all know it.

Daenerys has a very strong claim to the Iron Throne, but Jon's would have been better were it not for the (very public) fact that he has submitted to Daenerys. That makes it a moot point. He could go back on his pledge, but that too stands in direct opposition to his entire character. Once Jon's parents are revealed he should skyrocket to #1 on Daenerys' List because people with strong(er) claims are an ideal figure for rebellions to rally around.

Anyway, it won't matter when Tyrion and Sansa end up the most eligible partnership to rule and unite the realm once the war is over - and has claimed its near inevitable victims (i.e. Jon and Daenerys). All hail Queen Sansa!

[Megorova]

On 06.09.2017 at 1:50 AM, jcmontea said:

Are we being serious? 

Literally Daenerys destroyed slavery

The moment she was out of Astapor and Yunkai, their masters killed her servants, and reestablished themselves again as rulers of those cities. I think that while she's in Westeros, Great Masters will again overthrow her people, and Iron Bank will help them to spread slavery in Essos.

Quote

and is going to save Westeros from the White Walkers.

Fire, even dragon fire, does nothing to WW or NK. They can be killed only with Valyrian steel or dragonglass. And Dany is not a fighter.

Yes, she's the one who gave dragonglass to people, but it's not as if she created that dragonglass herself. If she wasn't on Dragonstone, Jon could've just went there and take it.

Jon will save Westeros. Jon and other people who will fight.

Dany's dragons can burn wights, but as long as WW are still functioning, they can create as many wights as there are people.

[Megorova]

On 06.09.2017 at 4:21 AM, El Guapo said:

Yes but when that first son died, he named his second son Viserys as his heir. That son would later be crowned on Dragonstone upon his fathers death and later name his sister as his heir. Technically speaking Dany bases her claim to the throne on Viserys being the previous king.

That is the books of course where Martin is purposely muddying the waters of the Targaryen succession. I doubt the show will even bring this up. 

My quote

Quote

Crown line: 1. King Aerys, 2. King's first son Crown Prince Rhaegar, 3. Rhaegar's first son Aegon I son of Elia Martell, 4. Rhaegar's second son Aegon II Jon Snow, 5. Rhaegar's daughter Rhaenys, 6. King Aerys' second son Prince Viserys, 7. King Aerys' daughter Daenerys.

Rhaegar annuled his marriage with Elia Martell. Probably he told about it to his father <-then it all makes sense. Then 3 and 5 is out of line, and at that point of time 4 was still unborn, it wasn't known whether the baby will be born alive, or survive long enought to be recognized as Iron Throne heir. So Aerys skipped to the one next in line - 6. Viserys.

And because Viserys had no children, he named Dany his heir, in case he will die.