sansa, arya, and dany

[jcmontea]

12 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

"When the sun rises in the west, and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and the mountains blow in the wind like leaves"
(And the bit that was cut from the show: "When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child then he will return, and not before.")
It's worth noting that this wasn't related to the question "When/can I have children again", but was a response to Dany asking "When will I have Khal Drogo back as he once was?" aka. when would her love return to her. Not being able to have children isn't the actual curse, it's an element of what needs to be achieved to break it.

Even if it is a curse/prophecy, and the show takes an alternate route, the requirements have already been fulfilled:
"The sun rising in the west and setting in the east" could be a metaphor for Dany's time in Essos ending, and her time in Westeros beginning.
The pyramids of Mereen collapsing, or the Wall coming crashing down can be interpreted as "mountains blowing in the wind like leaves", and the "sea went dry" when Dany took all the Dothraki with her when she left the Dothraki Sea.
Now her womb has quickened and she will bear a living child, and now she will find love again, except it won't be Khal Drogo, but Jon.

 

That is good analysis. 

If true, that would be the second time where Drogo is a metaphor for Jon along with the House of the Undying vision. 

[Cron]

27 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Jon painted her as a crazy woman. They might just go that route in the hahaha... can't believe you believed that crazy old woman vein.

Maybe.  But I don't think Mirri Maz Duur WAS just a crazy old woman.  She clearly had power (magic).  She knew what she was doing, and I think she knew what she was saying, and I think it WILL come true...in a twisted, unexpected sense.

GRRM has VERY carefully constructed this story.  Very little is meaningless or just crazy ramblings.  (Indeed, some threads on this site have made very surprising connections and insights into stuff I never thought much about at all when I first read the books)

No, I think it was prophecy, I think GRRM knew how he would make it come "true" when he wrote it, and when it is all said and done and Dany is pregnant, we will all look back on Mirri's words and praise GRRM for how clever he is (which he IS).

Again, this is VERY common in fantasy fiction.  Prophecies that seem bizarre and can't possibly true, or SEEM to mean something different from what they actually mean and are misinterpreted for hundreds (sometimes thousands) of pages, and then the reader finds out the REAL meaning and goes "Ohhhhh, so THAT'S what that meant!"  Common as dirt in fantasy fiction (but still lots of fun)

 

[Cron]

10 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

"When the sun rises in the west, and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and the mountains blow in the wind like leaves"
(And the bit that was cut from the show: "When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child then he will return, and not before.")
It's worth noting that this wasn't related to the question "When/can I have children again", but was a response to Dany asking "When will I have Khal Drogo back as he once was?" aka. when would the man she loves return to her. Not being able to have children isn't the actual curse, it's an element of what needs to be achieved to break it, so that she will find love again.

Even if the show alters the curse (which they did by removing half of what Miri Maaz Duur said), and makes Dany's inability to have children the focal point of it, the requirements have already been fulfilled:
"The sun rising in the west and setting in the east" could be a metaphor for Dany's time in Essos ending, and her time in Westeros beginning.
The pyramids of Mereen collapsing, or the Wall coming crashing down can be interpreted as "mountains blowing in the wind like leaves", and the "sea went dry" when Dany took all the Dothraki with her when she left the Dothraki Sea.
Now her womb has quickened and she will bear a living child, and now she will find love again, except it won't be Khal Drogo, but Jon.

 

Very interesting stuff, I enjoyed reading it all.

Yeah, it's possible that the prophecy already has come true, in a sense.

Could be.  It just depends on how abstractly we want to think about it (or, maybe, how abstractly GRRM wants to think about it)

But yeah, that's all possible.

[Super Mario]

1 hour ago, MinscS2 said:

"When the sun rises in the west, and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and the mountains blow in the wind like leaves"
(And the bit that was cut from the show: "When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child then he will return, and not before.")
It's worth noting that this wasn't related to the question "When/can I have children again", but was a response to Dany asking "When will I have Khal Drogo back as he once was?" aka. when would the man she loves return to her. Not being able to have children isn't the actual curse, it's an element of what needs to be achieved to break it, so that she will find love again.

Even if the show alters the curse (which they did by removing half of what Miri Maaz Duur said), and makes Dany's inability to have children the focal point of it, the requirements have already been fulfilled:
"The sun rising in the west and setting in the east" could be a metaphor for Dany's time in Essos ending, and her time in Westeros beginning.
The pyramids of Mereen collapsing, or the Wall coming crashing down can be interpreted as "mountains blowing in the wind like leaves", and the "sea went dry" when Dany took all the Dothraki with her when she left the Dothraki Sea.
Now her womb has quickened and she will bear a living child, and now she will find love again, except it won't be Khal Drogo, but Jon.

 

Never really viewed that as a curse per se, but rather just a colorful way of saying "he ain't comin' back sweetcheeks". The sun rises in the west and the mountains blow away etc is just a list of impossible stuff. As for her womb quickening, again i just took it very literally... that giving birth to the little monster Rhaego ruined her internal lady bits. Also, Dany already did find love again... Daario. She couldn't marry him of course, being a queen, marrying just for love isn't usually in the cards but she did love him.

So how can Dany have children now? Who knows. This girl is impervious to fire, obviously her body chemistry isn't quite "normal" so perhaps she healed internally where a normal woman wouldn't. Miri Maaz Duur wouldn't have allowed for this when declaring Dany barren since Dany had yet to emerge from the flames at that point. Dany never lost the ability to love so there is no curse there and even if all that other stuff were to happen, Drogo isn't coming back, unless he's in the Night King's army. Just my take...

[MrJay]

One gripe. I wouldn't call Daeny and Daario love in the show. I barely consider her loving Jon. 

I see the former as a sort of diversion from ruling. Just sex and fun. 

[MinscS2]

4 hours ago, Super Mario said:

 Dany already did find love again... Daario.

She was attracted to him, but he was just her "fuck buddy" and a diversion from the weight of ruling, not someone she actually had romantic feelings for and loved. That's why she "felt nothing" when she ordered him to stay behind when she sailed for Westeros.

[Super Mario]

3 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

She was attracted to him, but he was just her "fuck buddy" and a diversion from the weight of ruling, not someone she actually had romantic feelings for and loved. That's why she "felt nothing" when she ordered him to stay behind when she sailed for Westeros.

Daario certainly wasn't soulmate, true love, kind of love, but that doesn't mean there wasn't love there.

[MinscS2]

12 minutes ago, Super Mario said:

Daario certainly wasn't soulmate, true love, kind of love, but that doesn't mean there wasn't love there.

Agree to disagree. You can like and respect someone you're sleeping with, but that doesn't mean there's actual love involved.

[Deminelle]

37 minutes ago, Super Mario said:

Daario certainly wasn't soulmate, true love, kind of love, but that doesn't mean there wasn't love there.

Daario (just like Jorah) was too willing to please Dany. Jon wasn't. He fights for a cause.

[jcmontea]

Is there any actual evidence from the show that Dany loved Dario? 

I can't recal any in contrast to Jon where through Bran's voice over it is clearly stated that "she loves him" 

[MinscS2]

15 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Is there any actual evidence from the show that Dany loved Dario? 

I can't recal any in contrast to Jon where through Bran's voice over it is clearly stated that "she loves him"

No.
Liked him? Yes. Respected him? Yes. Listen to (some of) his advice? Yes. Found him sexually attractive? Yes.
However, did she trust him? No. ("I could never have faith in a man like Daario" /Dany S04E07)
Did she love him? No.
Daario probably loved Daenerys at the end of season 6 though, but I never got the impression that it was mutual.

Bran's voice over only solidified Jon and Dany's feelings for each other, to eliminate any doubt. 
Dany gave Jon looks and reacted to him in ways that she never did to Daario, like when he falls into the ice and she believes him to be dead, and later on when she stands on the wall and see's him returning. Dany would've been sad (and angry) if Daario died, but not nearly as heartbroken and elated as she is when reacting to Jon's "death"/miraculous return.

[jcmontea]

3 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

No.
Liked him? Yes. Respected him? Yes. Listen to (some of) his advice? Yes. Found him sexually attractive? Yes.
Loved him? No. Daario probably loved Daenerys at the end of season 6 though, but I never got the impression that it was mutual.

Bran's voice over only solidified Jon and Dany's feelings for each other, to eliminate any doubt. 
Dany gave Jon looks and reacted to him in ways that she never did to Daario, like when he falls into the ice and she believes him to be dead, and later on when she stands on the wall and see's him returning. Dany would've been sad (and angry) if Daario died, but not nearly as heartbroken and elated as she is when reacting to Jon's "death"/miraculous return.

Agreed. It was clear by Episode 5 that she had fallen for Jon from her looks. Bran merely eliminated all doubt for those who couldn't interpret the non dialogue aspects. 

The most affection she showed for Dario was probably s3e9 when she asks about him after the mission to Yunkai and Jorah looks crestfallen. I would def. not call that love though.

[Kytheros]

It's also worth noting that at the time MMD added having children to the list of impossible things, MMD probably assumed that the Dothraki would be taking Daenerys to Vaes Dothrak for Daenerys to join the Dosh Kaleen - aka, the wives of dead khals who don't get any anymore. Kind of hard to have children when you're not allowed to have sex with anyone again.

[Megorova]

9 hours ago, Super Mario said:

So how can Dany have children now? Who knows. This girl is impervious to fire, obviously her body chemistry isn't quite "normal" so perhaps she healed internally where a normal woman wouldn't. Miri Maaz Duur wouldn't have allowed for this when declaring Dany barren since Dany had yet to emerge from the flames at that point. Dany never lost the ability to love so there is no curse there and even if all that other stuff were to happen, Drogo isn't coming back, unless he's in the Night King's army. Just my take...

In her last chapter, between her going on her own away from Drogon, and her finding dothraki warrior, her period started again. So she isn't infertile. During pregnancy and after childbirth, until hormonal balance will come back to normal, women don't have their periods for several months. Which is totally normal. But because Dany is young, inexperienced, it was her first pregnancy, and so on, she thought that she became infertile. And when she started bleeding, she thought that she's dying, until she realised that it's her 'moon blood'. So at least by the end of book 5, she can have children again. 

[TyrionFan82]

I think Sansa will hate her, she's gotten a taste of power and won't want to let it go. Arya will probably trust her more and I think may be responsible for bringing Sansa around.

[MrJay]

On 9/12/2017 at 7:56 AM, jcmontea said:

Agreed. It was clear by Episode 5 that she had fallen for Jon from her looks. Bran merely eliminated all doubt for those who couldn't interpret the non dialogue aspects. 

The most affection she showed for Dario was probably s3e9 when she asks about him after the mission to Yunkai and Jorah looks crestfallen. I would def. not call that love though.

Bran was spying on them I bet 

[jcmontea]

34 minutes ago, MrJay said:

Bran was spying on them I bet 

100%. Bran was like 90% of the the people watching the show who were all about #epicboatsex 

although, someone pointed out that there were actually crow sounds in most of the winter fell scenes signaling Bran was watching. not sure if we had any crow sounds for Jon/ Dany scenes but its fun to think pervy Bran was watching. 

[MinscS2]

11 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

100%. Bran was like 90% of the the people watching the show who were all about #epicboatsex 

although, someone pointed out that there were actually crow sounds in most of the winter fell scenes signaling Bran was watching. not sure if we had any crow sounds for Jon/ Dany scenes but its fun to think pervy Bran was watching. 

To be fair, Bran is so emotionless these days that he would probably be like a toddler who doesn't really understand what he/she sees when walking in on his/her parents having sex in the morning; "Dad/Jon, why where you and Mom/Daenerys naked when you were in bed hugging?Weren't you cold?"

[Mladen]

1 hour ago, MinscS2 said:

To be fair, Bran is so emotionless these days that he would probably be like a toddler who doesn't really understand what he/she sees when walking in on his/her parents having sex in the morning; "Dad/Jon, why where you and Mom/Daenerys naked when you were in bed hugging?Weren't you cold?"

I sincerely doubt that. he would be THAT clueless. In books, with Jaime and Cersei, it made some sense given his age. For this Bran and his age, not so much.

That said, I would like Dany to face Stark pack in the same way LF did (minus the killing). Dany will most likely come expecting them to bend the knee and I would like to see them rattling her with Bran's knowledge. 

[jcmontea]

1 minute ago, Risto said:

I sincerely doubt that. he would be THAT clueless. In books, with Jaime and Cersei, it made some sense given his age. For this Bran and his age, not so much.

That said, I would like Dany to face Stark pack in the same way LF did (minus the killing). Dany will most likely come expecting them to bend the knee and I would like to see them rattling her with Bran's knowledge. 

What would be the motivation for doing that? 

Bran saw the wall go down. First thing he does is probably tell Sansa and they send ravens to every Northern House. 

Dany and Jon show up with Dany's army to defend Winterfell. 

How does Sansa, Arya and Bran gain by cornering her? What does that say about them that they try and treat her like the man who destroyed their parents when all she has done is save their King and adopted brother and come to their aid?