princess brittany

sansa, arya, and dany

212 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, Risto said:

For me, the more interesting aspect of all of this would not just be Stark girls v Dany, but actually Tyrion and Sansa being found as the "outcast" advisers of their respective monarchs. Their reunion and further interaction with these two being in love, would be interesting to see. I can only imagining Sansa and Tyrion one long night, staying awake late at night, talking "What the hell are we going to do with these two?"

I think it would put Jon in rather difficult situation. For him, the mission is clear, but all those people trust him. For them, everything relies on his word (although I suppose soon enough, they will have more than enough proof). And not only they will be asked to forget the old animosity between North and Targaryens. Jorah had the point, every Northern House bled during Robert's Rebellion and these things are not easily forgotten. To add the Dothraki, Unsullied and perhaps even Lannister force (I hope Jaime won't be coming alone) and we have a recipe for disaster. 

I really hope we get a scene like this. I also agree with your points on how Sansa and Arya may feel about Dany.

Im excited to see the reactions of Bran Sam etc at Winterfell seeing the entourage arrive with Drogon and Rhaegal. Perhaps Bran may play an important role re info to Sansa the Northern Lords and Arya re Dany ?

 

On a side at what point will Jon realise he can ride a dragon ? Who will deliver this important info ..Dany ? I mean at some point there has to be an important meeting about strategies for the War and Nk right ? I hope Jaime is made the Commander.   

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7 hours ago, Risto said:

Sansa isn't respected by her people? Quite the opposite, they actually wanted to crown her during Jon's absence.

Sansa has been surrounded by, arguably more beautiful women, such as Margaery, and she wasn't jealous of her. The issue for Sansa will be Jon's relationship with Daenerys and how it affects the North and her.

I believe she might not be fully OK with Jon and Dany, but that is because Dany's decision to name Jon a Warden of the North can mean Sansa would have to relinquish her position as Lady of Winterfell. 

LOL, this is good. This can go in different directions. I don't believe either of the three women will jump the bandwagon immediately. Sansa will have her issues regarding political consequences of Jon's choices, Arya was distrustful towards her own family, let alone strangers. Daenerys, on the other hand, is in full bend-the-knee mode. There will be some frictions but I doubt it will lead to some great schism. 

I am only afraid that this complex issues will be sorted out with Jon saying everyone "She has good heart" and everyone buying it.

I am also more interested to see how Sam will react to Dany (I suppose he found out about his father and brother) and how it will affect his friendship with Jon. 

Why wouldn't Sansa stay Lady of Winterfell? She was Lady of Winterfell when Jon was king. Jon isn't entitled to Winterfell. With Jon back she won't be ruling in his place. 

She's going to stay Lady of Winterfell because Bran doesn't want to be Lord Stark and Jon is still a bastard. And as a Targ I don't think he will become Lord of Winterfell.

Jon needs his own lordship in addition to being Warden. 

Edited by King Jon Snow Stark

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37 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Will ultimatley depend on whether his name is really Aegon in the books and whether they get married. If those two things happen then it was foreshadowing if not than it was just some random sentence. 

However, it certainly feels like the chances of this being foreshadowing have increased a lot after season 7 now that she has a romantic relationship with her brother's son who might be named Aegon. 

Yes, but the rules in the books are significantly different. We have no idea whether Jon's real name REALLY is Aegon in the books. Especially having the Young Griff and numerous references to Aegon in the books, something TV show is clearly lacking.I wouldn't jump to the conclusions with this one. 

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2 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Why would Sansa stay Lady of Winterfell. She was Lady of Winterfell when Jon was king. Jon isn't entitled to Winterfell. With Jon back she won't be ruling in his place. 

She's going to stay Lady of Winterfell because Bran doesn't want to be Lord Stark and Jon is still a bastard. 

Jon needs his own lordship in addition to being Warden. 

With Jon in the North or without him, Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell. Especially now that Bran has officially abdicated. Even before he left, the show positioned Sansa's role as Lady of Winterfell.

The thing is if Jon becomes Warden of the North, title held by Lord of Winterfell, is Dany's intention of making him Lord of WF? And if that is the intention, is he going to usurp Sansa? That is just one of many reasons why bending the knee was such an idiotic idea.

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9 minutes ago, Risto said:

With Jon in the North or without him, Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell. Especially now that Bran has officially abdicated. Even before he left, the show positioned Sansa's role as Lady of Winterfell.

The thing is if Jon becomes Warden of the North, title held by Lord of Winterfell, is Dany's intention of making him Lord of WF? And if that is the intention, is he going to usurp Sansa? That is just one of many reasons why bending the knee was such an idiotic idea.

King in the North was also held by Lord of Winterfell. Jon wasn't made Lord Stark when he became king. The titles are now seperate. Jon is Warden/King and Sansa is Lady of Winterfell. I don't think Dany cares. He was made Warden because he was king. 

 

Edited by King Jon Snow Stark

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4 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

King in the North was also held by Lord of Winterfell. Jon wasn't made Lord Stark when he became king. The titles are now seperate. Jon is Warden/King and Sansa is Lady of Winterfell. I don't think Dany cares. He was made Warden because he was king. 

Yes, Dany might not care, but other might and that may be something that can cause initial problems between Dany and Stark pack. But, at the end of the day, I think the last Sansa/Arya scene showed us that Stark siblings will not be torn apart by titles. 

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10 minutes ago, Risto said:

With Jon in the North or without him, Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell. Especially now that Bran has officially abdicated. Even before he left, the show positioned Sansa's role as Lady of Winterfell.

The thing is if Jon becomes Warden of the North, title held by Lord of Winterfell, is Dany's intention of making him Lord of WF? And if that is the intention, is he going to usurp Sansa? That is just one of many reasons why bending the knee was such an idiotic idea.

I took that as a division of responsibilities. Warden of the north and lord of winterfell, positions usually held by the same person, entail different responsibilities. Robert makes Jaime the warden of the east in the first book, which is where I thought the show was going.

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7 minutes ago, Risto said:

Yes, Dany might not care, but other might and that may be something that can cause initial problems between Dany and Stark pack. But, at the end of the day, I think the last Sansa/Arya scene showed us that Stark siblings will not be torn apart by titles. 

I agree. I think Sansa and Arya will be protective of Jon. I think they even more protective when Bran drops the Targ bomb. 

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49 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I took that as a division of responsibilities. Warden of the north and lord of winterfell, positions usually held by the same person, entail different responsibilities. Robert makes Jaime the warden of the east in the first book, which is where I thought the show was going.

Yea that way Jon runs the whole north and Sansa runs their homebase.  

Edited by King Jon Snow Stark

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1 hour ago, jcmontea said:

I personally think its stupid for her to yield. His claim at the end of the day comes down to her being a woman and him being a man since its based on a sexist primogentiture system. Her whole thing is changing that system so I don't see her acquiecing to it. 

Well note that, above, I was careful to say that her claim is based on rules of inheritance  based on Targaryen blood lines.  You might think that's not fair, and you might argue that Dany should try to CHANGE those rules, but that is NOT the same thing as saying she is the rightful heir right now according to those rules, cuz she is NOT.

And that's really my point, above.  Dany claims to have been playing by a certain set of rules.   She LIKES those rules when they benefit her, BUT, if she refuses to yield and tries to claim the rules should be broken, then she has cast aside the very rules under which she made her claim in the first place.   In my opinion, she can't have it both ways.  

(And by the way, to anyone out there reading this, PLEASE don't even start claiming I'm misogynistic or something, okay?  Frankly I really don't want to hear it, cuz I AM NOT the one who set up the Targaryen rules of succession.  So if you've got a problem with it, please go complain to GRRM, maybe he will listen to you and go change his books for you,  cuz I am not the one who set up these rules, and my STRONG understanding is that under the Targaryen rules of succession, Jon IS the rightful heir.  If GRRM had written it all differently, then I would argue that those are the rules, and I would be fine with Dany being the rightful heir, but that's not what GRRM wrote.)

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But I think she will ultimatley yield and propose a marriage alliance not because of the claim. Jon afterall did not bend the knee to her because of her claim. He bent the knee because he believed in her as a ruler. She will reciprocate because she belives in him as well and will wants to rule with him a man she loves, a man she believes in and the father of her child. 

Well, we seem to agree on the likely resolution.  For about six years, every since I read "A Dance With Dragons," I have believed that, at the end, there will be a tri-archy (three co-equal monarchs), a concept that is discussed in ADWD.  For a long time I have believed 2 of the 3 will be Dany and Tyrion, and I'm now starting to believe the most likely 3rd person is Jon.  (In my view, this also connects to the 3 heads of the dragon)

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I think the fact that they spent a lot of time talking about how both of them are in the positions they are because people believe in them and Tyrion suggesting elections as a matter of succession is potential foreshadowing for a more democratic system after the Great War. 

I don't know about a democracy right after the war, but possibly an eventual transition to that.  My opinion is that we will first see the tri-archy I was mentioning above, though.

But I really like your thoughts on what I would call "meritocracy," though, and yes, I agree.  Jon and Dany have reached the points where they are at based on merit (ironically enough, since they were both royally born), and I believe the same can be said of Tyrion, too (who I believe will be the 3rd tri-arch)

Edited by Cron

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3 hours ago, Cron said:

Well, if Dany doesn't offer to yield to Jon, I will consider her weak.

I'm sorry, but it's the truth.  She has claimed to live her life by certain principles (the rules of inheritance along Targaryen blood lines) and now, when they don't suit her, she may just abandon them??  Pretty weak, in my opinion.

Dany needs to make that offer, in my opinion, whether Jon offers it or not.  If Jon refuses, than fine, he abdicated.  But the honorable thing for Dany to do is to yield and offer to step aside, and if she doesn't I will be quite disappointed in her.

But...it's NOT her claim.  By all the rules she claims to be playing by, it is NOT her claim, whether she has wanted to be queen or not.

It doesn't matter how much Dany may want it, she is NOT the rightful heir, period, and we all know it.

Just like Renly, by the way.  I actually had no problem with Stannis crossing off Renly (within the world of Westeros).  Stannis was CLEARLY the rightful heir (as regards the Baratheons, at least), and Renly tried to usurp that and was in open rebellion.  Well, if a person lives in Westeros and tries that, I think that person should not be surprised if they get crossed off, no matter how much someone like Renly or Dany may "want" it.

If Dany won't yield, she's basically just another Renly, in my view.

I agree. And given the dynamics of this and previous seasons, I think this is where the writters are going too. There was too much of a "I was born to rule the Seven Kingdoms so you must bend the knee" for not having any consecuence in Dany's mindset when she discovers that it is not her birthright after all.  The people who surround her and who came with her to Westeros may have chosen her, but she did not choose herself for thinking that she would be a better ruler. She  took  upon herself as her destiny to recover what her family was stolen, and as the last member of that family, that birthright is also a duty. So, I think she will offer to "bend the knee" to Jon, and he'll refuse.

8 hours ago, Risto said:

I believe she might not be fully OK with Jon and Dany, but that is because Dany's decision to name Jon a Warden of the North can mean Sansa would have to relinquish her position as Lady of Winterfell. 

I also think that Sansa might not be fully ok with Jon and Dany, but not for the Warden title. That does not threaten Sansa's position as Lady of Winterfell, like when Robert took the "Warden of the East" title from Robin Arryn after his father's death didn't change his  Paramount Lordship. Robert took the title from him  just because he did not consider a boy able to effectively deffend part of the realm.

5 hours ago, Risto said:

For me, the more interesting aspect of all of this would not just be Stark girls v Dany, but actually Tyrion and Sansa being found as the "outcast" advisers of their respective monarchs. Their reunion and further interaction with these two being in love, would be interesting to see. I can only imagining Sansa and Tyrion one long night, staying awake late at night, talking "What the hell are we going to do with these two?"

That will be very interesting to see.  :D

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It's Dany's birthright.  Daughters can rule.  There is presedence among Targs, even in the north with Lady Mormont.  Jon Snow is not a direct heir to Aerys, Dany is.

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4 minutes ago, Hoo said:

It's Dany's birthright.  Daughters can rule.  There is presedence among Targs, even in the north with Lady Mormont.  Jon Snow is not a direct heir to Aerys, Dany is.

Jon is the son of the crown prince. He's next in line after his father. Once the crown prince has children the children bump everyone else down in the line of secession. 

Edited by King Jon Snow Stark

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4 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Jon is son of the crown prince. He's next in line after his father. Once the crown prince has children the children bump everyone else down in the line of secession. 

Dany is next in line as crown princess.  She is not a daughter of crown prince who never was a king.   Dany is a daughter of the king, a princess.  Dany is higher up. 

Edited by Hoo

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6 minutes ago, Hoo said:

Dany is next in line as crown princess.  She is not a daughter of crown prince who never was a king.   Dany is a dsughter of the king.  Dany is higher up. 

She was never crown princess. She thinks she's the last Targ. Jon has been the heir since birth he just didn't know it. Dany is not higher up. She's taking the kingdoms by conquest not by right of inheritance.  Jon would have inherited already in a normal situation. 

Edited by King Jon Snow Stark

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8 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

She was never crown princess. She thinks she's the last Targ. Jon has been the heir since birth he just didn't know it. Dany is not higher up. She's taking the kingdoms by conquest not by right of inheritance.  Jon would have inherited already in a normal situation. 

I don't see it that way.  I think Dany understands her birthright, she is next in succession.  Of course, successions are frequently challenged. 

i think Viserys I left his kingdom to daughter Rhaenyea, having lost both male sons.  That made the presedence over the 101 council which determined only male heirs can inherit the throne.

Edited by Hoo

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2 minutes ago, Hoo said:

 

I don't see it that way.  I think Dany understands her birthright, she is next in succession.  Of course, successions are frequently challenged. 

i think Viserys I left his kingdom to daughter Rhaenyea, having lost both male sons.  That made the presedence over the 101 council which determined only male heirs can inherit the throne.

Jon is next in line. He was born already. The guards were protecting him and his mother. But Jon won't challenge her because he's already pledge to her. 

In reality neither would have a claim since Robert took the kingdom. Dany is a conqueror. She pretty much conquered Jon. He won't go back on his word even though his claim is higher. 

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1 minute ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Jon is next in line. He was born already. The guards were protecting him and his mother. But Jon won't challenge her because he's already pledge to her. 

In reality neither would have a claim since Robert took the kingdom. Dany is a conqueror. She pretty much conquered Jon. He won't go back on his word even though his claim is higher. 

I agree.  It will work out between them.  One of them may die, so it would not be an issue at that point.  Also, if a baby is born, that solves it.

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16 hours ago, Megorova said:

I think that Sansa is going to hate her, out of jealosy. Not because she's a fan of Jon, but because she won't be happy over the fact that Dany will have influence over Jon. Also Dany is more beautiful than Sansa, more exotic, so she also will be jealous over her looks.

And Arya will probably be happy for him.

I'm so waiting for a reunion between Jon and Arya. And I want to see Dany seeing Jon with his family. Especially how he is with his little sister. That would be an indication, that he's going to be a good father.

Very true.  I predict Sansa will turn green with envy.

15 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Sansa most definitely won't like Dany at first. In her mind, this is the woman who "stole" Jon and made him bend the knee. The fact that Jon did this willingly and that Daenerys in Jon's mind deserves to be the queen of the seven kingdoms will have no effect on her.
We also know that Sansa wants to have Jon's ear, something that will be much harder for her with Dany around.

Arya on the flipside, will most likely size Dany up, come to the conclusion that she "has a good heart" and that she and Jon really care about each other. She will be like the protective sibling who get's to meet the in-law for the first time. 

How Dany will react to Sansa and Arya is harder to tell. If Sansa is openly disdainful and distrustful of Dany, then she will reflect those feelings.
As for Arya, I think Dany will approve of her combat skills and the fact that she and Jon is getting along very well. 

 

I believe that Sansa will die in TWOW.  At least i hope so.  I do not see this ever becoming an issue in the books.  Which is the more important story since it comes from the man himself, GRRM.  

The show may play this up and turn it into an issue.  Which will get annoying because the show is becoming a soap opera.  Not what you expect from an expensive show on an expensive premium channel.  

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