Dukhasinov

Weis and Benioff are missing the point of Robert`s Rebellion

61 posts in this topic

Bran`s revelation of the nature of Rhaegar and Lyanna`s relationship did not have the significance that Bran`s narrative attributes to it. The directors reinforce this flawed interpretation in later interviews. The fact that Lyanna was in a consentual relationship with Rhaegar does not mean the "Robert`s Rebellion was based on a lie," and does not take away the legitimacy of what Robert, Ned, and Jon Arynn did in overthrowing the Targaryens. The rebellion did not start because Rhaegar made off with a woman who was the daughter of one great lord and the betrothed of another. It started because the Mad King brutally murdered Rickard and Brandon Stark when they came to the capital to put the issue of the Crown Prince`s gross misconduct before the King. He then demanded of Jon Arynn that he deliver him the head of Eddard Stark or be attainted a traitor. It was the King who threw down the gauntlet to three of the most powerful lords of the realm. Eddard, Jon, and Robert had little choice but to pick it up.

 

   As far as Rhaegar and Lyanna`s relationship goes, to a medieval, patriarchal society like Westeros, absconding and eloping with someone`s daughter really isn`t much better than kidnapping and raping her. Either way, it`s a cause for bloody revenge. Helen of Troy went willingly with Paris. He didn`t kidnap her. That didn`t stop Agamemnon and Menelaus from falling upon Troy with all of their power.

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You make a fair point, but Robert hated the Targaryens with a passion because of what he thought Rhaegar did to Lyanna. Who's to say that without this newly ignited drive, Robert would have even been able to command his forces to victory the way he did.

Hell, perhaps Rhaegar could have attempted to speak with the rebels and help them overthrow his father. If Lyanna presented herself, I'm sure Ned and Jon Arryn would have preferred peace and having Rhaegar & Lyanna take the throne, rather than continue the war just for pride's sake. 

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I agree that they are missing the point. One of the things that has been lost in their TV adaptation is the medieval mindset of the characters. They behave as contemporary people. So in their view "the Rebellion" was based on a lie, but on bookWesteros or in our Middle Ages whatever Lyanna wanted would have been irrelevant to the fact that Rhaegar "kidnapped" and "raped" her.

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My interpretation was that Rhaegar was all too aware of his fathers mental state and planned to halt the rebellion amicably.  I think that when he met Robert on the trident his intention was to assure him that he would overthrow his father - his quote to Jamie that when he got back 'he would make a few changes' or something along those lines.

But i think that when he met Robert, IF he had time to explain that he and Lyanna were in love, it would be perfectly in-keeping with Roberts character for him to say, 'bollox to that' im gonna kill you anyway. We all know the rest.

to answer your point, i agree.  Lyannas 'abduction' my have triggered the war.  But there were greater and more prominent things behind it all.

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34 minutes ago, Victarian Revolution said:

My interpretation was that Rhaegar was all too aware of his fathers mental state and planned to halt the rebellion amicably.  I think that when he met Robert on the trident his intention was to assure him that he would overthrow his father - his quote to Jamie that when he got back 'he would make a few changes' or something along those lines.

But i think that when he met Robert, IF he had time to explain that he and Lyanna were in love, it would be perfectly in-keeping with Roberts character for him to say, 'bollox to that' im gonna kill you anyway. We all know the rest.

to answer your point, i agree.  Lyannas 'abduction' my have triggered the war.  But there were greater and more prominent things behind it all.

Proof that Rhaegar was some romantic poof and not a real warrior.  By the Battle of the Trident, the war had been going on for nearly a year.  Robert had destroyed disloyal lords in the Stormlands, smashed Jon Connington, and linked up with Ned, Jon, and Hoster to begin the final push on King's Landing.  Rhaegar was literally a "knight of summer", and the Trident was his first battle.

By all accounts, it was a disastrous rout, and the fact that Rhaeger ever met Robert in battle shows Rhaegar didn't have any idea what he was doing.  Rhaegar was as unfit to rule as Aerys.

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57 minutes ago, LindsayLohan said:

Proof that Rhaegar was some romantic poof and not a real warrior.  By the Battle of the Trident, the war had been going on for nearly a year.  Robert had destroyed disloyal lords in the Stormlands, smashed Jon Connington, and linked up with Ned, Jon, and Hoster to begin the final push on King's Landing.  Rhaegar was literally a "knight of summer", and the Trident was his first battle.

By all accounts, it was a disastrous rout, and the fact that Rhaeger ever met Robert in battle shows Rhaegar didn't have any idea what he was doing.  Rhaegar was as unfit to rule as Aerys.

i agree with you. This Rhaegar guy failed to see the consequences of his actions and did not act fast enough in dealing with the war and the actions of his mad father. The minute that the mad king burned those lords and asked for robert's and ned's head, Rhaegar should have come and killed his father and talked this thing out, but he though that somebody else would take care of his mess. But in general there's been a series of foolery carried out by a lot of lords after Rhaegar.

Edited by tormond

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Well, the rebellion didn't really start until Aerys had Lord Rickard and Brandon burned alive and called for Robert and Ned's heads. So yeah, they missed the point. 

Edited by Angel Eyes

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7 hours ago, My Sun and Stars said:

You make a fair point, but Robert hated the Targaryens with a passion because of what he thought Rhaegar did to Lyanna. 

And wasn't Lyanna all but promised to Robert whether she wanted to or not? It takes away the moral high ground for the rebellion in my opinion. They were just being assh*les too. Aerys burnt them Starks yes, but later Robert was willing to order Danaerys murdered so a saint he never was. 

If Lyanna was kidnapped and raped it is less embarrassing to Robert than if she ran off willingly having been betrothed to Robert and then rejecting him. Honor demands response to the one, while the other could be simply let go of with a little loss of pride. 

 All just deception and politics to start a war. The kidnapped/raped propaganda I am certain gained them more sympathy and support. Question is, who knew what and when? Eddard knew later for certain... I wonder 

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They usually miss the point in pretty much everything but I'm not sure they are missing it here. Robert and Brandon/Rickard most likely wouldn't have let the thing stand, even if Aerys hadn't killed Brandon/Rickard and offered to make amends. Brandon and Robert would have wanted Rhaegar's head for this thing.

In that sense Rhaegar-Lyanna are the beginning of the rebellion, and Lyanna is the reason why Robert fought as passionately and determined as he did. And he did, in a sense, fight for nothing, because the woman he loved did not love him in return.

It is really a sad story.

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2 hours ago, #teamNightking said:

And wasn't Lyanna all but promised to Robert whether she wanted to or not?

No woman in Westeros gets to decide who she marries with. Not Dany when she married Drogo, not Catelyn with Ned, not Lysa with Jon Arryn, not Cersei with Robert, not Sansa with Joffrey or Tyrion,... This is just how it works in a medieval world.

2 hours ago, #teamNightking said:

 It takes away the moral high ground for the rebellion in my opinion.

Only if you judge it from a modern perspective. People in Westeros would think that taking away a girl from his family, specially if she is already engaged to someone else, is a terrible insult. And of course they'll find perfectly reasonable that the affronted families try to obtain compensations or get revenge.

In antiquity, this would be considered as a "rape". For instance, in the classical "rape of Europa", she run away with Zeus and willingly stayed with him.

2 hours ago, #teamNightking said:

If Lyanna was kidnapped and raped it is less embarrassing to Robert than if she ran off willingly having been betrothed to Robert and then rejecting him. Honor demands response to the one, while the other could be simply let go of with a little loss of pride.

I disagree. Lyanna leaving voluntarily is certainly reason for shame for both the Starks and the Baratheons, but still, Rhaegar taking her (and secretly marrying her) instead of delivering her back to her family is a complete breach of the social contract and a huge insult. Wars have been fought for much less.

2 hours ago, #teamNightking said:

The kidnapped/raped propaganda I am certain gained them more sympathy and support. Question is, who knew what and when? Eddard knew later for certain... I wonder 

It's not propaganda. As said, Rhaegar run off with Lyanna and that makes him guilty. Period. In it could still be said that Lyanna had been "kidnapped" or "raped" in-world (not from our perspective, of course)

In fact, it's perfectly possible that many people in Westeros knew or suspected that Lyanna went along willingly. It's just something that it's not very relevant to the whole affair.

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1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

No woman in Westeros gets to decide who she marries with.

I think that's an awfully broad brush to paint with. With all the households, and kingdoms and gods from the old gods to the new, the drowned god and the even the red god (Stannis, et al)... I concede there is a practice of arranged marriage among the nobles and kingdoms. Still, how those that refuse to accept the arrangement are dealt with is not universal. Most common it seems is a family bullying and coercing their eligible maiden (or man, some males as well are married off for alliances) into a grudging acceptance. 

And in a practical aspect no Lord or King wishes to be poisoned by his betrothed on their wedding night after raping their bride in order to consummate  the marriage. 

Where Lyanna went dreadfully wrong IMO is in keeping things secret. It is possible had she appealed to her family and insisted that under no circumstances would she marry Robert (to marry the vows must be said and the marriage consummated, poor Westeros women have some choice)... Maybe they would examine the merits of a Targaryen/Stark alliance and a way to replace the mad king and have a Stark as Queen of the seven kingdoms without a rebellion. 

What I'm saying is even though R&L were nobles with responsibilities to their house and family... Maybe there was some other way to handle a rebellious child behaving poorly without a rebellion and massive war. Unless they wanted a rebellion anyway in which case the whole affair was just an excuse to get the war started. 

But Rhaegar seems to have been an assh*le like Viserys and Aerys was bats$it crazy... So bottom line... to say the rebellion was based on a lie... Is a stretch and certainly opinion. Just as likely the rebellion was built on an excuse. 

 

Edited by #teamNightking

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Serious question: Is there anything -- I mean, literally, anything -- that Benioff and Weiss are not missing the point of? If you have ever watched those behind the episode videos you understand my question is an earnest one. 

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34 minutes ago, Faint said:

Serious question: Is there anything -- I mean, literally, anything -- that Benioff and Weiss are not missing the point of? If you have ever watched those behind the episode videos you understand my question is an earnest one

I never have watched those. I'll not defend the Ds however, I think it fair to bring up the writing in the book seriously was on a downward trajectory in my opinion. First three were solid. Crows was a drop off and Dance was in need of about at least a 300 page edit and I wouldn't rate it above 3/5 stars. Words are wind, travel travel travel, words are wind. . 

There are unknown factors as to what has GRRM shared with the show as to current plot and ending? Maybe some of these ideas are from him? We may never know; if he changes the story after witnessing the negative reaction of the fans lol. 

And maybe he is taking so long with Winds because he's having trouble with the plot and making it all fit together. 

I think when you adapt an unfinished work there is risk. They should have had GRRM under contract as a writer through the end of the show! His name is still in the credits as Co Executive Producer but the only thing I think he's producing these days is a pay check. ^_^

Edited by #teamNightking

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2 hours ago, #teamNightking said:

Words are wind, travel travel travel, words are wind.

This is not uncommon, but a very incorrect interpretation of ADWD.

2 hours ago, #teamNightking said:

Maybe some of these ideas are from him?

GRRM is an intelligent writer. To you, that sometimes means that he writes "words are wind - travel travel travel - words are wind" novels, but he isn't. He's just meticulous and careful, as he should be considering that he's writing a complex series. Because he's so meticulous and careful, he'd never embarrass himself with stupidities like "the wight hunt" and "negotiating truce with Cersei".

2 hours ago, #teamNightking said:

And maybe he is taking so long with Winds because he's having trouble with the plot and making it all fit together.

Yes, writing a complex story takes time, patience and above all talent. Opposite to something like GOT, which requires none.

2 hours ago, #teamNightking said:

I think when you adapt an unfinished work there is risk. They should have had GRRM under contract as a writer through the end of the show! His name is still in the credits as Co Executive Producer but the only thing I think he's producing these days is a pay check.

Thank God that he's no longer a part of the stupid show. It'd be a tragedy if any of his endgame ideas came up in the travesty that is GOT. And besides, it was tiring all these years to explain to show apologists that GRRM doesn't really stand behind the nonsense D&D regularly come up with.

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1 minute ago, StepStark said:

It'd be a tragedy if any of his endgame ideas came up in the travesty that is GOT

I'm certain some are though, unless he changes the endgame. They only agreed to the show in the beginning if he told them the ending. 

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2 minutes ago, #teamNightking said:

I'm certain some are though, unless he changes the endgame. They only agreed to the show in the beginning if he told them the ending. 

I meant "his" like "his own writing". Yes, some of his ideas he shared with D&D, sadly, but seeing what they're doing with the story anyways it's not too big a deal. Those two guys wouldn't be able to spoil the Bible.

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Of course the rebellion was based as a lie. 

Rhaegar and Lyanna lied to and probably acted to the whole world that it was a "kidnapping" on swordpoint but in truth it is a secret eloping and honeymoon. 

Do you think Westerosi people will think it is a kidnapping if Lyanna ran to Rhaegar with happy smile and they ended up hugging and kissing each other passionately and then run away together? 

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"Roberts Rebellion was built on a lie" was just the ultimate manifestation of D$Ds biases (Targ whitewashing/Baratheon blackwashing)

Even if Rhaegar and Lyanna loving each other ends up being book canon (which...ugh is there anything more generic and antithetical to the very essence of this series?) their actions still ultimately plunged the kingdoms into war, Lyanna was ultimately responsible for the death of her father and brother and Rhaegar responsible for the brutal murder and rape of his wife and two young children. That's to say nothing of the insult to Elia and House Martell that was annulling Elia in favor of 14 year old girl, AND on top of all that, he gives his son by his side piece the same name as the son he left to die in Kings Landing.

Fuck Rhaegar and Lyanna. They were selfish fucking idiots and the romanticization of their relationship is the worst shit of that variety in the fandom since Dany/Drogo.

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39 minutes ago, RenlyIsNotRight said:

Fuck Rhaegar and Lyanna. They were selfish fucking idiots and the romanticization of their relationship is the worst shit of that variety in the fandom since Dany/Drogo.

Sums it up. Agreed 

Jon snow had some messed up parents. 

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8 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

No woman in Westeros gets to decide who she marries with. Not Dany when she married Drogo, not Catelyn with Ned, not Lysa with Jon Arryn, not Cersei with Robert, not Sansa with Joffrey or Tyrion,... This is just how it works in a medieval world.

bullshit. I am sure as hell commoner women can decide who they want marry. It is specifically stated that according to law in Westeros no one can force you to marry against your will. For noblewomen it's more of "if you don't want to marry that man, fine, get off my castle now & see how long you can survive in the street before dying of starvation". It's not "according to law you must marry whoever I ask you to marry" because no such law exists. 

and while we talking about real life history, many of the stereotypes we held of the medieval age are not accurate at all. While medieval world was not an ideal place to live for women (and I would say for men too), many of the laws and customs/social conventions that held back women, that we typically associate with "period European settings", actually formed in the post-medieval era (Renaissance era & early modern era). History is not linear. Sometimes we take one step forward but two steps backward. 

Edited by Jon Snow is a loser

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