Dukhasinov

Weis and Benioff are missing the point of Robert`s Rebellion

98 posts in this topic

34 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

If GOT started like this?  The reason GOT started the way it did was because D & D signed up to do an adaptation of a set of novels they loved (or at least purported to).  They are fans of the source material as much as anyone else, at least in GRRM's estimation who signed off on this.  I think D & D care a great lot about the integrity of the source material and this kind of sentiment is unfair to them, who are stuck essentially writing fan-fiction because GRRM can't and won't finish the damn books.  

I lost all faith that D & D was interested in being faithful the moment they put in 'You want a good girl, but you need a bad pussy'.

As far as I can tell, D & D read up to the end of Storm of Swords, saw the Red Wedding, and thought 'This'll make great SHOCK AND AWE™ television'. Fuck, they even said in early interviews after Season One that 'the good stuff will probably only come three seasons in'. They were only interested in luring people in with SHOCKING TWISTS™ and DARK AND GRITTY™ environments to make the show FANTASY, BUT FOR ADULTS™.

They're just typical TV Network hacks like any other, all they care about is luring in as many idiots (who want to feel smart/faux-geeky) as possible and basking in the monetary returns.

Edited by Beardy the Wildling

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36 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

I lost all faith that D & D was interested in being faithful the moment they put in 'You want a good girl, but you need a bad pussy'.

As far as I can tell, D & D read up to the end of Storm of Swords, saw the Red Wedding, and thought 'This'll make great SHOCK AND AWE™ television'. Fuck, they even said in early interviews after Season One that 'the good stuff will probably only come three seasons in'. They were only interested in luring people in with SHOCKING TWISTS™ and DARK AND GRITTY™ environments to make the show FANTASY, BUT FOR ADULTS™.

They're just typical TV Network hacks like any other, all they care about is luring in as many idiots (who want to feel smart/faux-geeky) as possible and basking in the monetary returns.

C'mon now, this is the worst kind of condescending talk there is, suggesting that you have to be an idiot to enjoy the show or if you happen to be a more casual viewer?  Please clarify if I'm misreading that because if I'm not, no point in discussion.  

Yeah, the Dorne stuff was unforgivably awful and the low point of the show.  If memory serves, they initially waffled about including Dorne in the first place and didn't want to, but then changed their minds for some reason and tried to convince themselves the Sandsnakes would be huge hits.  That was a failure on all levels- not only was the writing awful, but the acting, directing, and fight choreography were also awful.  

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13 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

C'mon now, this is the worst kind of condescending talk there is, suggesting that you have to be an idiot to enjoy the show or if you happen to be a more casual viewer?  Please clarify if I'm misreading that because if I'm not, no point in discussion.  

Yeah, the Dorne stuff was unforgivably awful and the low point of the show.  If memory serves, they initially waffled about including Dorne in the first place and didn't want to, but then changed their minds for some reason and tried to convince themselves the Sandsnakes would be huge hits.  That was a failure on all levels- not only was the writing awful, but the acting, directing, and fight choreography were also awful.  

Well, I think it's fine to be a casual viewer, as long as you understand that you're not watching a show of substance. Just another cynical collection of tired fantasy tropes, fun for eating popcorn to and going 'ooh' and 'aah' with your friends. Like Star Wars, shit like that. Turn your brain off and watch the shit-show.

Nah, the true idiots are the ones that think that Game of Thrones in its current state, is 'deep' and 'asks the tough questions', when it is little more than a mixture of fantasy tropes, exploitation film tropes, and a massive budget.

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2 hours ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

'And Lady Sandra is a Bolton' - Line actually kept in the final cut of Game of Thrones.

And no-one was surprised.

Haha! 

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11 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

C'mon now, this is the worst kind of condescending talk there is, suggesting that you have to be an idiot to enjoy the show or if you happen to be a more casual viewer?  Please clarify if I'm misreading that because if I'm not, no point in discussion.  

Yeah, the Dorne stuff was unforgivably awful and the low point of the show.  If memory serves, they initially waffled about including Dorne in the first place and didn't want to, but then changed their minds for some reason and tried to convince themselves the Sandsnakes would be huge hits.  That was a failure on all levels- not only was the writing awful, but the acting, directing, and fight choreography were also awful.  

I thought the Sand Snakes were the worst and bad pussy was the lowest moment of the entire show.

What is interesting to me is I have a friend who is watching the show right now for the first time and through 5x08. We have been talking about the season a lot and he pieced together R+L=J after 5x04. As of yet he has not mentioned the sand snakes once. 

I am curious if for most people it was a non event since the actual screen time they get is minimal. 

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19 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

C'mon now, this is the worst kind of condescending talk there is, suggesting that you have to be an idiot to enjoy the show or if you happen to be a more casual viewer?  Please clarify if I'm misreading that because if I'm not, no point in discussion.  

Yeah, the Dorne stuff was unforgivably awful and the low point of the show.  If memory serves, they initially waffled about including Dorne in the first place and didn't want to, but then changed their minds for some reason and tried to convince themselves the Sandsnakes would be huge hits.  That was a failure on all levels- not only was the writing awful, but the acting, directing, and fight choreography were also awful.  

Well, the show truly is stupid. Every plotline is stupid, every character acts stupidly, the dialogue is often simplified to the lowest common point, and things like violence and sex are used to lure viewers and not to serve the plot. And nobody in the cast or crew is actually shy about all of that. I mean, it's only tits and dragons, right? So I'm not sure it can get more stupid than that.

Even in earlier seasons almost every deviation from the books resulted in something incredibly stupid.

Of course it's okay to enjoy the show even if it's stupid. Everyone does that, everyone enjoys things that are stupid. But thinking that GOT is actually intelligent or well written? Now that's something else. At the very least, that means lack of taste, or at the very least lack of exposure to the material that really is good, like The Wire or Breaking Bad.

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19 hours ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

Nah, the true idiots are the ones that think that Game of Thrones in its current state, is 'deep' and 'asks the tough questions', when it is little more than a mixture of fantasy tropes, exploitation film tropes, and a massive budget.

I agree completely, I'd just add that it wasn't much better even in earlier seasons. What was more-less faithfully taken from the books was the saving grace back then, but if you look as just the stuff D&D invented, they were always terrible as writers and showrunners. I mean, Talisa! What makes her better than Sand Snakes? Nothing really, except that she doesn't curse, and of course, unlike them she's part of the storyline that generally makes sense. But everything about her, starting with her identity, is totally ridiculous, not a bit better than Sand Snakes.

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21 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

They are fans of the source material as much as anyone else, at least in GRRM's estimation who signed off on this.  I think D & D care a great lot about the integrity of the source material and this kind of sentiment is unfair to them, who are stuck essentially writing fan-fiction because GRRM can't and won't finish the damn books.

I think GRRM probably changed his estimation about them greatly, considering that he doesn't even watch the show any more. It really is something else, isn't it? Two guys are making a show based on your books (even if still unpublished) and you're not even watching! That tells you everything you need to know about GRRM's opinion of D&D and their "respect" for the source material.

And actually, they never respected the source material. They probably never understood it either.

BTW, I'm fine with GRRM taking his time to finish the books. All I care is that once they're out the books are good, which pretty much means that they're nothing like the show. Who's impatient or doesn't care about the books, can watch this piece of trash that is GOT. To each their own, right? So GRRM really has no reason to rush his writing just so that D&D can mess with the source material some more. They're Emmy-winning writers for Christ's sake, and they know what works on screen and what doesn't: shouldn't they be capable of writing a coherent episode at least, if the entire season is too much for them? After all that bragging about how much they love and care for the books, shouldn't they know to write something that at least resembles an arc for Davos? Or Arya? Or Sansa? Or anyone really?

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3 hours ago, StepStark said:

I agree completely, I'd just add that it wasn't much better even in earlier seasons. What was more-less faithfully taken from the books was the saving grace back then, but if you look as just the stuff D&D invented, they were always terrible as writers and showrunners. I mean, Talisa! What makes her better than Sand Snakes? Nothing really, except that she doesn't curse, and of course, unlike them she's part of the storyline that generally makes sense. But everything about her, starting with her identity, is totally ridiculous, not a bit better than Sand Snakes.

Yeah. It's something I've noticed as well. Pod the Sex God, Jaime and Bronn's big gay road trip in Dorne, Loras's gay promiscuity (as opposed to his inconsolable joining of a celibate order in grief), whenever D & D is doing something original and wasn't merely streamlining... yeah, it stinks to high heaven of juvenile fantasy tropes, shitty attempts to be 'edgy' or 'funny', and flat-out lame storytelling.

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Well, I think we're getting a bit sidetracked, but yeah, I gotta agree with this thread, that they missed the point. Because it wasn't based on a bloody lie, since Aerys executed Rickard, had Brandon strangle himself to death, and then called for Ned and Robert's heads. That's when Jon Arryn went "screw your ultimatum" and the three declared war on Aerys.

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I think certain plots and aspects of the show are "well-written" and at the very least, thought provoking. Does that make me an idiot, considering I read the novels as well?

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On 9/20/2017 at 0:55 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Well, I think we're getting a bit sidetracked, but yeah, I gotta agree with this thread, that they missed the point. Because it wasn't based on a bloody lie, since Aerys executed Rickard, had Brandon strangle himself to death, and then called for Ned and Robert's heads. That's when Jon Arryn went "screw your ultimatum" and the three declared war on Aerys.

I am going to withold judgement on that until the end since GRRM has indicated more will be revealed about Robert’s Rebellion. 

Also, what the hell does Bran know. This is the same person that said Jon Snow is Jon Sand so who knows how much he can trusted. He didn’t pay much attention Maester Luwin’s lessons. 

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On 2017-09-04 at 10:27 PM, Dukhasinov said:

As far as Rhaegar and Lyanna`s relationship goes, to a medieval, patriarchal society like Westeros, absconding and eloping with someone`s daughter really isn`t much better than kidnapping and raping her. Either way, it`s a cause for bloody revenge. Helen of Troy went willingly with Paris. He didn`t kidnap her. That didn`t stop Agamemnon and Menelaus from falling upon Troy with all of their power.

Here's the thing about that. If you were a medieval lord with an eligible daughter? Your biggest fear was going to be, say, the local baker's son. Why? Well because the emphasis most fantasy authors place on class as a prerequisite of marriage in medieval society isn't really accurate (including GRRM...to an extent, he's far better about this than most).

Yes, nobles used marriage to build alliances, settle treaties, and whatnot. Yes, almost all "highborn" marriages were political in nature. That has absolutely NO barring on the church's view of the sacrament of marriage though. That's why, to a lord, the bakers' son is such a cause for concern. If he catches your daughter's eye and the two run off to get married in some small out of the way church? The marriage stands. And all the rattling about "noble birth" means nothing in the eyes of the church. Marriage is marriage, regardless of the status of the two people saying the vows.

Now of course a noble daughter doing this was risking a lot. More often than not? Doing the above would cut her off from any support her father would otherwise offer. It was essentially a move that traded an upper class life for a life as a commoner. Still? The local bakers' boy running off with the lord's daughter to get married would result in a union that would be recognized as valid by all involved. Tragically valid perhaps, depending on your point of view. Still valid though.

 

So let's assume that Westeros, being largely modelled on medieval Europe, views marriage in much the same way feudal medieval Europe did. If Lyanna running off with the baker's boy to get married is a real possibility (and again, it would have been if she was actual medieval European nobility) then marrying another lord would have been one too.

So the insistence that Rhaegar and Lyanna running off in secret was no different from Rhaegar stealing and raping her is, well, false. Yes, Lyanna was in many ways viewed as the property of her father. Yes, her father made arrangements to marry her off to Robert, Lord of the Stormlands. And yet, at the same time, her marriage to Rhaegar would have been seen as legally binding. Regardless of how many toes it stepped on.

Don't get me wrong. It still would have been a clusterf of epic proportions, even if it didn't lead to rebellion. Dorn would have been outraged. Houses Stark and Baratheon would have been clamouring for compensation. None of that would have challenged the legality of the marriage though. So the OP is correct in that Rhaegar and Lyanna both did a very stupid thing by running off to get married. My main issue with the above quote is that Rhaegar wouldn't be seen as someone who more or less raped Lyanna. A scoundrel? Sure. Rapist? No.

 

On 2017-09-04 at 10:27 PM, Dukhasinov said:

It started because the Mad King brutally murdered Rickard and Brandon Stark when they came to the capital to put the issue of the Crown Prince`s gross misconduct before the King.

If they had gone before Aerys II and said "your son ran off with my daughter/sister and their foolish behaviour has put the stability of the realm into question" then you'd be absolutely right.

Problem is they didn't. They went before the king and accused Rhaegar of kidnapping Lyanna. Without a shred of evidence that she had actually been kidnapped. Aerys II was absolutely bonkers. I'm not arguing otherwise. I'm simply saying that going before the king you've sworn fealty to and then accusing his son and heir of wrongdoing without a shred of evidence is pretty poor form.

Again, Rhaegar (and Lyanna) did a very stupid thing. Something so stupid it puts his fitness to rule into question. At the same time though? Rickard and Brandon Stark accusing him of a crime he didn't commit with no proof escalated the situation unnecessarily and pushed the realm into a civil war that could have been avoided had cooler heads prevailed.

Sadly for the realm you had hotheaded honour-bound to the point of blindness Starks and Robert "I like to kill things" Baratheon on one side, and a legit crazy King and his hopelessly romantic and stupid crown prince on the other side. It was a perfect storm of crap.

 

So really? I don't mind the "Robert's Rebellion was based on a lie" line. It's accurate. The situation was far more complex then originally presented.

 

Edited by Vortgyn

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9 hours ago, Vortgyn said:

So really? I don't mind the "Robert's Rebellion was based on a lie" line. It's accurate. The situation was far more complex then originally presented.

That's correct. Also, I think the "Robert's Rebellion was based on a lie" thing will be explained better on the next season with flashbacks or an epilogue scene and, of course, by GRRM in "The Winds of Winter" and "A Dream of Spring". By the way, great review dude.

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1 hour ago, Jose92 said:

By the way, great review dude.

Thank you! It's very much appreciated. 

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On 9/19/2017 at 7:46 PM, Beardy the Wildling said:

I lost all faith that D & D was interested in being faithful the moment they put in 'You want a good girl, but you need a bad pussy'.

As far as I can tell, D & D read up to the end of Storm of Swords, saw the Red Wedding, and thought 'This'll make great SHOCK AND AWE™ television'. Fuck, they even said in early interviews after Season One that 'the good stuff will probably only come three seasons in'. They were only interested in luring people in with SHOCKING TWISTS™ and DARK AND GRITTY™ environments to make the show FANTASY, BUT FOR ADULTS™.

They're just typical TV Network hacks like any other, all they care about is luring in as many idiots (who want to feel smart/faux-geeky) as possible and basking in the monetary returns.

In this sweeping statement of yours aren't you basically taking the piss out of the source material, too?

 

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On 9/4/2017 at 8:27 PM, Dukhasinov said:

Bran`s revelation of the nature of Rhaegar and Lyanna`s relationship did not have the significance that Bran`s narrative attributes to it. The directors reinforce this flawed interpretation in later interviews. The fact that Lyanna was in a consentual relationship with Rhaegar does not mean the "Robert`s Rebellion was based on a lie," and does not take away the legitimacy of what Robert, Ned, and Jon Arynn did in overthrowing the Targaryens. The rebellion did not start because Rhaegar made off with a woman who was the daughter of one great lord and the betrothed of another. It started because the Mad King brutally murdered Rickard and Brandon Stark when they came to the capital to put the issue of the Crown Prince`s gross misconduct before the King. He then demanded of Jon Arynn that he deliver him the head of Eddard Stark or be attainted a traitor. It was the King who threw down the gauntlet to three of the most powerful lords of the realm. Eddard, Jon, and Robert had little choice but to pick it up.

 

   As far as Rhaegar and Lyanna`s relationship goes, to a medieval, patriarchal society like Westeros, absconding and eloping with someone`s daughter really isn`t much better than kidnapping and raping her. Either way, it`s a cause for bloody revenge. Helen of Troy went willingly with Paris. He didn`t kidnap her. That didn`t stop Agamemnon and Menelaus from falling upon Troy with all of their power.

The murder of the Starks never happens if Rheagar and Lyanna never go off together. If the Starks aren't murdered, Aery's likely doesn't call for Ned and Robert's heads. Basically the entire catalyst for the war was the instance of Rheagar allegedly kidnapping Lyanna.

It brought the Starks in conflict with the Targaryens which led to their unlawful murder. 

The base cause of conflict was that. Several other things need to happen to get to full scale war. But the earliest event that you could remove from the timeline to avoid the war was that. 

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1 hour ago, Фейсал said:

In this sweeping statement of yours aren't you basically taking the piss out of the source material, too?

 

Not strictly. The Red Wedding, in my eyes, is just the denoument of a slow, steadily built up diplomatic implosion for Robb's campaign, and for the most part, thanks to having the material to adapt from, D & D did a good job. However, when you look at the later seasons and interviews from D & D mentioning that they told execs 'the good stuff only happens three seasons in', they clearly didn't get that vibe from the RW. They just saw it as an EPIC PLOT TWIST that'll prove to the world that they can write ADULT FANTASY.

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2 hours ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

Not strictly. The Red Wedding, in my eyes, is just the denoument of a slow, steadily built up diplomatic implosion for Robb's campaign, and for the most part, thanks to having the material to adapt from, D & D did a good job. However, when you look at the later seasons and interviews from D & D mentioning that they told execs 'the good stuff only happens three seasons in', they clearly didn't get that vibe from the RW. They just saw it as an EPIC PLOT TWIST that'll prove to the world that they can write ADULT FANTASY.

Dear Sir, why are you betraying all the fine work you've done so far? They didn't do a good job with the Red Wedding. How can anything that involves Talisa, and especially something that features Talisa getting stabbed and promotes that into the main image of the entire scene, ever be a good job?

They practically turned Robb's tragedy into Talisa's tragedy. And they completely left Cat in the background, even though she is actually the main character in that storyline in the books. How can that be a good job?

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2 minutes ago, StepStark said:

Dear Sir, why are you betraying all the fine work you've done so far? They didn't do a good job with the Red Wedding. How can anything that involves Talisa, and especially something that features Talisa getting stabbed and promotes that into the main image of the entire scene, ever be a good job?

They practically turned Robb's tragedy into Talisa's tragedy. And they completely left Cat in the background, even though she is actually the main character in that storyline in the books. How can that be a good job?

Okay, maybe I'm being a little generous. Both Robb and Cat were played by good actors and stuff, but yeah. Talisa's a fucking failure, no doubt there. She was so out-of-place, what with being an anti-slavery Volantine time-travelling feminist, that people came up with the honeypot theories that'd change the way we saw the GoT fandom, but I dunno. A little part of me wants to give them some credit for when they at least tried to be faithful :P

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