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What If The Father Of Cersei's Baby Is...BRONN?!?!

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What's that, you say?  This is ludicrous, inconceivable? (Pun intended. HARR!!!)

Don't be so sure.

First, Bronn is very interested in sex. Given half a chance, he'd be all over her, I have NO doubt.  In fact, he's made several comments to Jaime about Cersei

Second, Cersei is willing to do sexual things in order to gain things she wants, and Bronn would make a perfect spy on Jaime, AND on Tyrion.

Third, IN FACT, Cersei has already shown that she had information that, quite possibly, only Bronn knew:  The arranged meeting between Jaime and Tyrion.  Indeed, Cersei knew about it in advance, before the meeting even took place (we were specifically told this), so she did not simply have someone follow Bronn and Jaime (and I can't imagine how anyone could follow Bronn and Jaime down there without Bronn and Jaime knowing it anyway).  Now, there COULD be other explanations for how Cersei knew, but the simplest explanation is that Bronn told her himself, and any other explanation would necessarily imply that Bronn is sloppy and careless, but we know Bronn is NOT sloppy or careless (quite the contrary, in fact.  Bronn is VERy stealthy and careful).

Fourth, in addition to revealing to Jaime that she knew about the meeting in advance, Cersei expressed interest to Jaime about what, if anything, Jaime was going to do to Bronn.  Why on Earth would Cersei even CARE about what Jaime was or was not going to do to Bronn?  Maybe because she's having sex with him, and was afraid if Jaime punished him he might reveal to Jaime what was going on??  And thus, if Jaime had said he was going to punish Bronn, maybe to talk Jaime out of it?

Fifth, Bronn and Pod left the Dragonpit right before Cersei arrived.  Why?? Yes, I know we've been told jerome Flynn and Lena Headey won't be on set together, but maybe that's just a ruse. Maybe, in reality, the people who don't want to be seen together are Bronn and Cersei, and MAYBE the show, for years, has made a point of them almost never being seen together (they've only been in one scene together, and did not even speak to each other, as I recall) to maximize the sudden shock when it is revealed that, actually, Bronn and Cersei have been having an affair, possibly for a long time.

Sixth...did you notice that when Jaime left King's Landing, Bronn wasn't with him??  That struck me as very odd.  Now, I know jaime did not have the authority to take whatever was left of the Lannister forces, so I wasn't surprised he didn't have a force of men behind him, but...no Bronn??  Why not?  Bronn is very loyal to both Jaime and Tyrion (at least as loyal as Bronn can be to anyone), much more loyal than to anyone else, so WHY would Bronn not be with Jaime?  Because Bronn chose to stay behind, presumably (I can't imagine Jaime not even asking Bronn to go with him.  Jaime is barely capable of defending himself, with only one hand, and Bronn has been Jaime's near-constant companion for about 3 seasons now).  So WHY wasn't Bronn with him, and WHY would Bronn choose to stay behind?  (By the way, I'm not suggesting Jaime already knows Bronn is having sex with Cersei, or that Bronn is the father. Far from it.  I believe BRAN is going to tell Jaime the truth, in a moment of very fitting karma.)

Finally, perhaps I should have prefaced this by saying I'm already convinced Jaime is not the father, but I'll tack it on now.  For a while, i thought the father might be Euron, but now I'm starting to lean against that (although Euron is still a real possibility), and leaning towards Bronn.

So, who do you think is more likely the father, Euron, or Bronn?  I'm thinking 75% Bronn, 25% Euron at the moment.

Edited by Cron

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1 hour ago, Cron said:

What's that, you say?  This is ludicrous, inconceivable? (Pun intended. HARR!!!)

Don't be so sure.

First, Bronn is very interested in sex. Given half a chance, he'd be all over her, I have NO doubt.  In fact, he's made several comments to Jaime about Cersei

Second, Cersei is willing to do sexual things in order to gain things she wants, and Bronn would make a perfect spy on Jaime, AND on Tyrion.

Third, IN FACT, Cersei has already shown that she had information that, quite possibly, only Bronn knew:  The arranged meeting between Jaime and Tyrion.  Indeed, Cersei knew about it in advance, before the meeting even took place (we were specifically told this), so she did not simply have someone follow Bronn and Jaime (and I can't imagine how anyone could follow Bronn and Jaime down there without Bronn and Jaime knowing it anyway).  Now, there COULD be other explanations for how Cersei knew, but the simplest explanation is that Bronn told her himself, and any other explanation would necessarily imply that Bronn is sloppy and careless, but we know Bronn is NOT sloppy or careless (quite the contrary, in fact.  Bronn is VERy stealthy and careful).

Fourth, in addition to revealing to Jaime that she knew about the meeting in advance, Cersei expressed interest to Jaime about what, if anything, Jaime was going to do to Bronn.  Why on Earth would Cersei even CARE about what Jaime was or was not going to do to Bronn?  Maybe because she's having sex with him, and was afraid if Jaime punished him he might reveal to Jaime what was going on??  And thus, if Jaime had said he was going to punish Bronn, maybe to talk Jaime out of it?

Fifth, Bronn and Pod left the Dragonpit right before Cersei arrived.  Why?? Yes, I know we've been told jerome Flynn and Lena Headey won't be on set together, but maybe that's just a ruse. Maybe, in reality, the people who don't want to be seen together are Bronn and Cersei, and MAYBE the show, for years, has made a point of them almost never being seen together (they've only been in one scene together, and did not even speak to each other, as I recall) to maximize the sudden shock when it is revealed that, actually, Bronn and Cersei have been having an affair, possibly for a long time.

Sixth...did you notice that when Jaime left King's Landing, Bronn wasn't with him??  That struck me as very odd.  Now, I know jaime did not have the authority to take whatever was left of the Lannister forces, so I wasn't surprised he didn't have a force of men behind him, but...no Bronn??  Why not?  Bronn is very loyal to both Jaime and Tyrion (at least as loyal as Bronn can be to anyone), much more loyal than to anyone else, so WHY would Bronn not be with Jaime?  Because Bronn chose to stay behind, presumably (I can't imagine Jaime not even asking Bronn to go with him.  Jaime is barely capable of defending himself, with only one hand, and Bronn has been Jaime's near-constant companion for about 3 seasons now).  So WHY wasn't Bronn with him, and WHY would Bronn choose to stay behind?  (By the way, I'm not suggesting Jaime already knows Bronn is having sex with Cersei, or that Bronn is the father. Far from it.  I believe BRAN is going to tell Jaime the truth, in a moment of very fitting karma.)

Finally, perhaps I should have prefaced this by saying I'm already convinced Jaime is not the father, but I'll tack it on now.  For a while, i thought the father might be Euron, but now I'm starting to lean against that (although Euron is still a real possibility), and leaning towards Bronn.

So, who do you think is more likely the father, Euron, or Bronn?  I'm thinking 75% Bronn, 25% Euron at the moment.

I applaud your imagination.  I am a conspiracy theorist myself and will entertain almost any theory at least until I have convinced myself it can't be true.  But in this case, I don't think it makes any sense.  Most notably, I can't see her carrying the baby of a low born, regardless of his current title. I think Cersei found out about the meeting from her "little birds'.  The show has done a very good job of convincing the viewer that the spy network Varys had setup up was highly effective.  When he left for Essos, Qyburn took over that network, so those little birds belong to Cersei now.  I feel like it is implied that is how she found out.  As far as the baby is concerned, the thought that Jaime was not the father had crossed my mind.  I am convinced however that it is Jaime's, with Euron being the only other option.  Jaime is her regular bed mate, Euron is her suitor.  She told Jaime that she would tell everyone the baby was his, as she doesn't care what people think.  but I can see her hooking up with Euron while Jaime was away at High Garden, as incentive to keep him working for her.  I can only assume if Jaime is not the father, Euron might have planted his seed when they met up to plan his "retreat" back to Pyke at the Dragon Pit meeting.  I would say the chances would look more like 75% Jaime, 25% Euron...

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I don't think so. Cersei doesn't have anything to gain from sleeping with Bronn. Qyburn does all her spying for her.

On the other hand, I do like the idea of Bran telling Jaime he's not the father. I've believed the child is Euron's, and there really aren't too many other ways to prove who the father of the child is.

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Bronn openly disprove of Cersei in front of Jamie several times this season:
"I'm sure Queen Cerseis reign will be quiet and peaceable." (Ep 4)
"May as well jump back in that river (if you're gonna tell Cersei)" (Ep 5)
Let alone the fact that she has a long history of trying to have Tyrion, one of Bronns best friends, killed.
Doubt Cersei would be so willing to punish Bronn as well if she had slept with him earlier, unless he was really really bad in bed.

I can't even imagine him in bed with her from a story PoV, and from the actors PoV is is, as you point out, impossible.

I'd say the chances of her Baby being Bronn's is 0%, Jamies 67% and Eurons 33%.
 

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5 minutes ago, Jaehaerys Stark said:

I applaud your imagination.  I am a conspiracy theorist myself and will entertain almost any theory at least until I have convinced myself it can't be true.  But in this case, I don't think it makes any sense.  Most notably, I can't see her carrying the baby of a low born, regardless of his current title. I think Cersei found out about the meeting from her "little birds'.  The show has done a very good job of convincing the viewer that the spy network Varys had setup up was highly effective.  When he left for Essos, Qyburn took over that network, so those little birds belong to Cersei now.  I feel like it is implied that is how she found out.  As far as the baby is concerned, the thought that Jaime was not the father had crossed my mind.  I am convinced however that it is Jaime's, with Euron being the only other option.  Jaime is her regular bed mate, Euron is her suitor.  She told Jaime that she would tell everyone the baby was his, as she doesn't care what people think.  but I can see her hooking up with Euron while Jaime was away at High Garden, as incentive to keep him working for her.  I can only assume if Jaime is not the father, Euron might have planted his seed when they met up to plan his "retreat" back to Pyke at the Dragon Pit meeting.  I would say the chances would look more like 75% Jaime, 25% Euron...

Very interesting.

Regarding the "lowborn" issue, I think you yourself address that later in your post.   I don't think Cersei has any concern about that, b/c she's willing to let people believe the father is Jaime, and in fact is telling even Jaime he is the father.  And at this point, I think she may be so desperate to have another child (having lost four now, in the show), that I don't think she cares WHO the father is (as long as it's someone she's willing to have sex with, of course)

Regarding the little birds:  I think they are overrated.  Sure, they give information, but WOW, how could they have known not only that Bronn (presumably) had spoken with Tyrion, and was arranging a meeting between Jaime and Tyrion?  That is highly specific information, and would have to assume that BOTH Bronn and Tyrion were incredibly careless, despite the fact that they both know perfectly well about the spy networks, how dangerous Cersei is, and that what they were discussing was highly sensitive, to say the least.  So...both Bronn and Tyrion were outfoxed, despite all that, by a little kid???  Again, remember, the information Cersei had was highly specific.  She knew not only that Tyrion was in town and had communicated with Bronn, but that Bronn was setting up a meeting between Tyrion and Jaime.  Pretty amazing.

Regarding Jaime:  I'm totally convinced he's not the father.  In fact, I will be stunned if he is the father and I don't think they have been regular bed mates for a long time.  Yeah, Jaime and Cersei had sex that one time that we saw, but before that she was QUITE cold to him and rejected him a number of times, as I recall.  Then, suddenly...she is very sexually aggressive towards him??? I was immediately suspicious of that, and when we found out she is pregnant I immediately suspected that she had found out she was pregnant by someone else, and quickly had sex with Jaime so he would never suspect. the truth. 

By the way, do you remember how Jaime found out Cersei was pregnant?  As I recall, he walked in on her while she was with Qyburn, and asked what Qyburn was doing there...after which Cersei told Jaime she was pregnant.  Why didn't she tell him before?  Had Qyburn just confirmed it, and Cersei was going to go find Jaime to tell him the good news anyway?  If so, why was that scene filmed in that odd way, with Jaime suddenly interrupting them?  And why is Cersei no longer concerned with whether people know about the twincest??

Also, while you addressed a good chunk of what I wrote (thanks), some of it you did not.  Why was Bronn not with Jaime when Jaime left King's Landing?  The more I think about that, the more I think it is flat out bizarre, for multiple reasons.

Well, we may respectfully disagree on the first 75%,  but at least we agree on the other 25% (Euron).  Some people have argued fiercely against that, too, in other threads, but I've been suspicious of him for quite a while, too, for a variety of reasons I have listed elsewhere.

In any event, I think there surely MUST be some plot twist coming up with this baby.  The notion that Jaime is the father is just too simple and linear.  In matters like this, I'm more inclined to expect the unexpected, and the biggest "shock" here would be...jaime is NOT the father, a fact which could easily cause Jaime to go full Valonqar (which I'm convinced IS coming.  I am 100% convinced Jaime is the Valonqar, and will eventually cross Cersei off.   Finally, on this last point, for anyone reading this, NO, I did NOT just say it would be justifiable for Jaime to kill Cersei because she cheated on him and lied about it.  But Jaime does have a temper, we know he does act impulsively, we know this is something he would take VERY personally,  we know someone IS going to kill Cersei, and in my strong opinion that someone is Jaime, so I think its' reasonable to look for possible motivations Jaime might have, even for a "crime of passion" or in a moment of "temporary insanity")

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22 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I don't think so. Cersei doesn't have anything to gain from sleeping with Bronn. Qyburn does all her spying for her.

Maybe.  But Bronn has unique access to both Jaime and Tyrion, who, knowing about the spy network, would be fools to allow themselves to be caught in anything by that spy network.

Also, my goodness, even if the spy network is very good, they can't be everywhere at all times.

Finally, my understanding is that Cersei likes sex, so that's a motive for her too, especially if she can get anything else out of it in the bargain. In the books, she has very casual sex with a number of men for no better reason than b/c she likes it, and they do things for her, some of which are very minor.  And establishing Bronn as a spy could be VERY important to Cersei, because of her incredibly intense blood feud with Tyrion.  She has known for a long time that if Tyrion were to ever return to King's Landing, the only people he might trust and contact are Jaime and Bronn, and sure enough, that's exactly what Tyrion did, and sure enough, Cersei knew about he whole thing, before it even happened.

22 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

On the other hand, I do like the idea of Bran telling Jaime he's not the father. I've believed the child is Euron's, and there really aren't too many other ways to prove who the father of the child is.

Yes, I am convinced Jaime is not the father, and about 99% convinced the way he is going to find out is from Bran.  And this would bring the story full circle, in a variety of ways, and provide a LOT of symmetry (early on, Cersei was cheating on Robert with Jaime, and allowed Robert to believe he was the father of Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen, and the fact that Jaime and Cersei were having sex was discovered by Bran.  Now, at the end, Cersei was cheating on Jaime with someone else, is allowing Jaime to believe he is the father, and once again the truth will be discovered by Bran, and revealed by Bran to Jaime, who pushed Bran out a window and thus set many other events in motion).  

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30 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Bronn openly disprove of Cersei in front of Jamie several times this season:
"I'm sure Queen Cerseis reign will be quiet and peaceable." (Ep 4)
"May as well jump back in that river (if you're gonna tell Cersei)" (Ep 5

Frankly, I do not read either of those things as disapproval.  And I don't believe any of it would deter Bronn from having sex with Cersei in any event.  Indeed, some people are capable of having sex with people they actively DISLIKE, and DO SO, and it's easy for me to imagine Bronn being one of them.  (in fact, as I understand it, for some people, that is a turn on, and once again, it is easy for me to imagine Bronn either being in that category or just not caring in any way about Cersei's personality)

30 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

)Let alone the fact that she has a long history of trying to have Tyrion, one of Bronns best friends, killed.
Doubt Cersei would be so willing to punish Bronn as well if she had slept with him earlier, unless he was really really bad in bed.
I can't even imagine him in bed with her from a story PoV, and from the actors PoV is is, as you point out, impossible.

I'd say the chances of her Baby being Bronn's is 0%, Jamies 67% and Eurons 33%.
 

Interesting. I don't recall Cersei's exact words in that scene (about whether Bronn should be punished).  I'll say this, though:  I don't take just about anything she says at face value, but what we DO know for sure is that she brought the subject up with Jaime, and that struck me as odd immediately.  Why on Earth would Cersei even care enough to raise the subject?  I have no idea.  If Cersei wanted, she could probably have Bronn killed without Jaime even knowing she was responsible.  Why would she CARE if Jaime intended to have him punished?

Finally, regarding the actors:  Yes, I did mention this myself, but frankly it only increases my suspicion.  I'm now thinking this is just a cover-up.  Consider this:  (a)  I don't know details of Jerome and Lena's history, but I have heard it was in 2002.  How bad could it have been that they STILL won't even be int he same room together, 15 years later, even though they've been working on the same show for 7 years?? (b)  Also, come on.  There are other ways this could have been handled WITHOUT the business with Bronn and Pod going to get a drink not being so blatantly obvious.  Look, the WHOLE SCENE could have easily been shot and made to look like Bronn and Cersei were both there, when in fact jerome and Lena were NEVER there at the same time, right?  Of course it could have been!  Different angles, closeups, having Bronn stand off to the side and never in the exact same frame as Cersei.  These things could easily have been done.  But no.  In fact, not only was Bronn not there at all, but we were given a bizarre scene (Bronn and Pod going to get a drink) with (I think) a fairly bizarre explanation as to why it was flimed that way (to wit, and basically, that the animosity between Jerome and Lena is so great that  not only can they not be int he same room together, but special scenes or shots have to be added to explain Bronn's absence.  What?? Sorry, I'm not buying it)  

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9 minutes ago, Cron said:

Maybe.  But Bronn has unique access to both Jaime and Tyrion, who, knowing about the spy network, would be fools to allow themselves to be caught in anything by that spy network.

Also, my goodness, even if the spy network is very good, they can't be everywhere at all times.

Finally, my understanding is that Cersei likes sex, so that's a motive for her too, especially if she can get anything else out of it in the bargain. In the books, she has very casual sex with a number of men for no better reason than b/c she likes it, and they do things for her, some of which are very minor.  And establishing Bronn as a spy could be VERY important to Cersei, because of her incredibly intense blood feud with Tyrion.  She has known for a long time that if Tyrion were to ever return to King's Landing, the only people he might trust and contact are Jaime and Bronn, and sure enough, that's exactly what Tyrion did, and sure enough, Cersei knew about he whole thing, before it even happened.

Cersei in the books is known to enjoy casual sex. Show cersei hasn't slept with anybody except Lancel. And we don't know if that was a single moment of weakness or something that continued for a longer period of time.

Cersei couldn't have known that Tyrion was planning to contact someone in KL. That was a dangerous move, so I'm not sure show cersei would sleep with Bronn on the off chance it happened. And there is no way for Jaime and Bronn to know which children/adults are hired by qyburn. Also, cersei claimed to know the whole thing before it happened. It is possible that she exaggerated. 

But I can see that anything's possible with cersei. And I also agree that someone being lowborn isn't going to bother cersei if she gets something out of it. 

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I'm not gonna argue with you about it, people are free to have whatever theories they fancy. :)

 

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Would be kinda funny, since Jerome Flynn (Bronn) and Lena Headey (Cersei) hate each other in real life.

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31 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Would be kinda funny, since Jerome Flynn (Bronn) and Lena Headey (Cersei) hate each other in real life.

LOL, I was just about to say...

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7 hours ago, Cron said:

Yes, I know we've been told jerome Flynn and Lena Headey won't be on set together, but maybe that's just a ruse.

Or maybe it's completely true, and that's exactly why D&D wrote this crazy plot of yours—to troll Jerome for making their lives harder as producers. "Oh, you can't be in the same room as our star? Well, every time your character is off-screen, he's having sex with her character. Take that."

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2 hours ago, falcotron said:

Or maybe it's completely true, and that's exactly why D&D wrote this crazy plot of yours—to troll Jerome for making their lives harder as producers. "Oh, you can't be in the same room as our star? Well, every time your character is off-screen, he's having sex with her character. Take that."

HARR!!

Good, one, seriously.

Yeah, I had a somewhat similar thought, that if there is ANY substance to the "Jerome vs. Lena" thing, the irony of Bronn being the father of Cersei's child would be deep and rich indeed.

My guess:  There's some kernel of truth to it, but my hunch is that it's being used as a cover by the show, too.

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7 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Cersei in the books is known to enjoy casual sex. Show cersei hasn't slept with anybody except Lancel. And we don't know if that was a single moment of weakness or something that continued for a longer period of time.

All interesting points. My personal policy for interpreting the show is that book-canon applies to the show, too, unless we are specifically shown or told otherwise.  So, I assume that on these issues, show-Cersei is the same as book-Cersei, at least in her willingness to do such things (and this is supported by show-Cersei's sexual activity with Lancel.  Sure, there are no Kettleblack brothers in the show, but the time constraints of the show necessitate that so much be cut that I do not automatically assume that just b/c it's not in the show the showrunners made a creative decision that a certain character, in this case Cersei, has been changed in a fundamental way).

But hey, this is just my interpretation policy.  For all I know, D&D may say otherwise, of course.

7 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Cersei couldn't have known that Tyrion was planning to contact someone in KL. That was a dangerous move, so I'm not sure show cersei would sleep with Bronn on the off chance it happened. And there is no way for Jaime and Bronn to know which children/adults are hired by qyburn. Also, cersei claimed to know the whole thing before it happened. It is possible that she exaggerated. 

Regarding the first point you make, my theory is not that it's just a remote off chance that Tyrion might return and contact Bronn, but rather, that it would be easy for Cersei to predict that Tyrion WILL eventually return, and that when he does, he WILL contact Bronn and/or Jaime.  And sure enough, that is exactly what Tyrion did.  (Incidentally, I'm not necessarily claiming this would be Cersei's ONLY motivation for having sex with Bronn, but it could definitely be a piece of the puzzle.  For all we know, Bronn has been doing all kinds of odd jobs for Cersei for years, not least of which his reporting on Jaime)

Regarding your next point: My opinion is that Bronn, Tyrion and Jaime would be fools to speak publicly (whether there ANY children or other adults around or not) no matter what.  My goodness, these are super sensitive issues of the highest order, and ALL THREE (Bronn, Tyrion and Jaime) KNOW there are spies all over the place!  My guess is that when Tyrion contacted Bronn, he did it VERY carefully, rather than just strolling up to him on the street (or in a bar, or restaurant, or whatever) and saying "Hey, Bronn!! Long time no see!!!  Can you set up a meeting with me and Jaime?!?"

On your final point in this paragraph...sure, Cersei could have been exaggerating, bluffing to make Jaime think she was more powerful than she really is.  But this would mean she had Bronn and Jaime followed (which in and of itself would indicate she is interested in their activities, by the way), and I just don't buy it.  As I basically mentioned, Bronn and Jaime went to a VERY secluded place to meet Tyrion (indeed, Jaime didn't even know what was going on; to even suggest that Cersei learned about it by having them followed would suggest she is having Bronn and Jaime followed almost constantly), and I just don't see how she could have had them followed without them knowing it (especially Bronn)

Bottom line here, to me, is that the FAR simpler explanation is that Cersei knew cuz Bronn TOLD her.

7 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

But I can see that anything's possible with cersei. And I also agree that someone being lowborn isn't going to bother cersei if she gets something out of it. 

Yes, I think so too!

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16 hours ago, Cron said:

Very interesting.

Regarding the "lowborn" issue, I think you yourself address that later in your post.   I don't think Cersei has any concern about that, b/c she's willing to let people believe the father is Jaime, and in fact is telling even Jaime he is the father.  And at this point, I think she may be so desperate to have another child (having lost four now, in the show), that I don't think she cares WHO the father is (as long as it's someone she's willing to have sex with, of course)

Regarding the little birds:  I think they are overrated.  Sure, they give information, but WOW, how could they have known not only that Bronn (presumably) had spoken with Tyrion, and was arranging a meeting between Jaime and Tyrion?  That is highly specific information, and would have to assume that BOTH Bronn and Tyrion were incredibly careless, despite the fact that they both know perfectly well about the spy networks, how dangerous Cersei is, and that what they were discussing was highly sensitive, to say the least.  So...both Bronn and Tyrion were outfoxed, despite all that, by a little kid???  Again, remember, the information Cersei had was highly specific.  She knew not only that Tyrion was in town and had communicated with Bronn, but that Bronn was setting up a meeting between Tyrion and Jaime.  Pretty amazing.

Regarding Jaime:  I'm totally convinced he's not the father.  In fact, I will be stunned if he is the father and I don't think they have been regular bed mates for a long time.  Yeah, Jaime and Cersei had sex that one time that we saw, but before that she was QUITE cold to him and rejected him a number of times, as I recall.  Then, suddenly...she is very sexually aggressive towards him??? I was immediately suspicious of that, and when we found out she is pregnant I immediately suspected that she had found out she was pregnant by someone else, and quickly had sex with Jaime so he would never suspect. the truth. 

By the way, do you remember how Jaime found out Cersei was pregnant?  As I recall, he walked in on her while she was with Qyburn, and asked what Qyburn was doing there...after which Cersei told Jaime she was pregnant.  Why didn't she tell him before?  Had Qyburn just confirmed it, and Cersei was going to go find Jaime to tell him the good news anyway?  If so, why was that scene filmed in that odd way, with Jaime suddenly interrupting them?  And why is Cersei no longer concerned with whether people know about the twincest??

Also, while you addressed a good chunk of what I wrote (thanks), some of it you did not.  Why was Bronn not with Jaime when Jaime left King's Landing?  The more I think about that, the more I think it is flat out bizarre, for multiple reasons.

Well, we may respectfully disagree on the first 75%,  but at least we agree on the other 25% (Euron).  Some people have argued fiercely against that, too, in other threads, but I've been suspicious of him for quite a while, too, for a variety of reasons I have listed elsewhere.

In any event, I think there surely MUST be some plot twist coming up with this baby.  The notion that Jaime is the father is just too simple and linear.  In matters like this, I'm more inclined to expect the unexpected, and the biggest "shock" here would be...jaime is NOT the father, a fact which could easily cause Jaime to go full Valonqar (which I'm convinced IS coming.  I am 100% convinced Jaime is the Valonqar, and will eventually cross Cersei off.   Finally, on this last point, for anyone reading this, NO, I did NOT just say it would be justifiable for Jaime to kill Cersei because she cheated on him and lied about it.  But Jaime does have a temper, we know he does act impulsively, we know this is something he would take VERY personally,  we know someone IS going to kill Cersei, and in my strong opinion that someone is Jaime, so I think its' reasonable to look for possible motivations Jaime might have, even for a "crime of passion" or in a moment of "temporary insanity")

I don't think there is anything weird abot how she told Jaime.  I feel like the meeting with Qyburn was indeed him confirming her pregnancy.  Now whether they know it's his or not is a different story.  I actually like the idea that they both know it's Euron's, which is why Qyburn greets Jaime like he does then promptly leaves. But whether it's Euron's or Jaime's, that scene still seems appropriate. As far as her sexual aggression, that could be explained by hormones from being pregnant, or as you mentioned, having a cover-up for being pregnant by Euron, but needing to convince Jaime it's his. I think that Cersei is more willing to let others know Jaime is the father because he is a Lannister, so still of a prominent house (hers).  Even when she was sleeping with her cousin Lancel, he was still a Lannister.  Not to mention she makes a comment to Ned previously about how the Targs married and reproduced and nobody batted an eye as justification of her and Jaime having 3 kids together.  She is justifying their relationship in that regard.  Which is why I said that her and Jaime have been bed mates for a long time.  Let's not forget, Cersei is the only woman Jaime has ever been with.  Being pregnant by Euron would be fine as well, as he is a Greyjoy, another prominent house.  So she would be down to give him some action, especially if she thought she was getting something from it to help her in her effort to keep the throne.  Bronn offers information only.  Not enough for her to stoop to having sex with a lowborn. When I mentioned Bronn being lowborn, I couldn't see her having his kid.  Sleeping with him is one thing, but carrying his child? 0% chance in my opinion.  Cersei is still aristocratic and stuck up.  She has always been one to look down on low borns.  For all the dirty stuff she does, she does it with other high born people. Ultimately though, I think the big twist with her child will not be who the father, but whether she has the kid at all.  Maggy the Frog said she would have 3.  The fact of whether she ever had a 4th (what would have been her first) kid is unknown at this time.  She said she had a child, but it's not said whether that was ever really true. In the books, she got pregnant by Robert but aborted it.  In the show, she told Catlyn she had a child who died, but that may have been a lie.  Especially when Cat mentions she never heard of that child.  Ned and Robert were best friends, so if Ned never heard, I assume Cersei was lying to get sympathy and get Cat to open up during that conversation. If no twist is planned for the pregnancy, it's Jaime's.  If there is a twist, it's Euron's. 

To address your doubt about the "little birds", let's not forget, they are not just children.  He refers to his spies as such due to the phrase "A little bird told me..."  Remember Ros?  She was considered one of Varys' little birds.  Anybody in his spy network is referred to as a "little bird".  Examples of things they have discovered or had a hand in include reporting on Bran's fall and the Valyrian dagger, reporting all of Dany's actions  while she was in Essos, Littlefinger's plans regarding Sansa going with him to the Eyrie, tracking Tyrion after he was abducted in Volantis through to his arrival in Mereen, infiltrating the Sons of the Harpy in order to find the prostitiute helping them and eventually unmasking their leadership, and of course killing Maester Pycell and blowing up the Sept of Baelor.  Those are just a few examples.  So could they have found out about the meeting?  Absolutely.

Now about Bronn and Jaime not riding out together, I think Bronn meets up with him for sure to join him.  The show seems to lead us to believe that Jaime left post haste.  Maybe in his rush to go, he didn't find Bronn, but instead had someone message him about what is going on.  Bronn will meet up with him down the road.  I guarantee it.  I think the scene was meant to be solo for Jaime for effect.  Just a simple seen of lone Jaime as he see snow falling on KL.  Makes for a nice fade to black for the finale.  I wouldn't worry too much about Bronn's absence at this junction.  They will ride/fight together again for sure.

I agree with your valnqar prediction that Jaime will kill Cersei.  But let me throw this one at you:  what if Jaime kills Cersei, but turns out it's really Arya wearing Jaime's face.  I think there is a strong possibility this happens.  Now that robot Bran is starting to spill the beans on all kinds of things now, the whole reason all of this foolishness started is bound to come out.  He will eventually tell someone about what he saw in that tower, and about Jaime pushing him out the window.  With Jaime riding North, this HAS to come out.  I foresee a situation where it is revealed, but forgiven by most due to Jaime's participation in the Great War.  But Arya will not forgive him, kill him, take his face and go to KL to cross off the #1 name on her list.  What do you think of that one?

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On 9/6/2017 at 9:10 AM, Jaehaerys Stark said:

I don't think there is anything weird abot how she told Jaime.  I feel like the meeting with Qyburn was indeed him confirming her pregnancy.  Now whether they know it's his or not is a different story.  I actually like the idea that they both know it's Euron's, which is why Qyburn greets Jaime like he does then promptly leaves. But whether it's Euron's or Jaime's, that scene still seems appropriate. As far as her sexual aggression, that could be explained by hormones from being pregnant, or as you mentioned, having a cover-up for being pregnant by Euron, but needing to convince Jaime it's his. I think that Cersei is more willing to let others know Jaime is the father because he is a Lannister, so still of a prominent house (hers).  Even when she was sleeping with her cousin Lancel, he was still a Lannister.  Not to mention she makes a comment to Ned previously about how the Targs married and reproduced and nobody batted an eye as justification of her and Jaime having 3 kids together.  She is justifying their relationship in that regard.  Which is why I said that her and Jaime have been bed mates for a long time.  Let's not forget, Cersei is the only woman Jaime has ever been with.  Being pregnant by Euron would be fine as well, as he is a Greyjoy, another prominent house.  So she would be down to give him some action, especially if she thought she was getting something from it to help her in her effort to keep the throne.  Bronn offers information only.  Not enough for her to stoop to having sex with a lowborn. When I mentioned Bronn being lowborn, I couldn't see her having his kid.  Sleeping with him is one thing, but carrying his child? 0% chance in my opinion.  Cersei is still aristocratic and stuck up.  She has always been one to look down on low borns.  For all the dirty stuff she does, she does it with other high born people. Ultimately though, I think the big twist with her child will not be who the father, but whether she has the kid at all.  Maggy the Frog said she would have 3.  The fact of whether she ever had a 4th (what would have been her first) kid is unknown at this time.  She said she had a child, but it's not said whether that was ever really true. In the books, she got pregnant by Robert but aborted it.  In the show, she told Catlyn she had a child who died, but that may have been a lie.  Especially when Cat mentions she never heard of that child.  Ned and Robert were best friends, so if Ned never heard, I assume Cersei was lying to get sympathy and get Cat to open up during that conversation. If no twist is planned for the pregnancy, it's Jaime's.  If there is a twist, it's Euron's. 

Yikes, that's a huge paragraph.  Just a friendly suggestion, but if you break something like that up into 5 or 6 paragraphs, it would be a LOT easier to Reply to.  I'll try, though.

Well, I've allowed a 25% possibility that the father is Euron, even now.  In my mind, though, I am 100% convinced jaime is not the father, and frankly I think the number of people who believe Jaime is not the father is growing (unless I'm mistaken, in fact, you seem to be one of them).  Something is going on in this story with this baby.  It's just too simple and linear for Jaime to be the father, that is NOT good storytelling.  There is going to be a twist, or two, and it will be revealed that Jaime is not the father.

Yes, I agree that some of the evidence could fit Euron as well as Bronn.  In fact, until last week, I was convinced Euron was the father.  Now I'm leaning towards Bronn (pretty heavily), but hey, it might still be Euron.

I hear you about Cersei presumably not considering Bronn an ideal father for a child, but hey, I think she's desperate to have another kid, and doesn't really care who the father is, as long as she is the mother.  Still, you make a strong point about Euron being from a major house, and it's certainly true that Bronn, so far as we know, is not.

Mmm...you say Cersei does dirty stuff with other highborn people, but I'm not so sure.  As I've said, in the books she has sex with all three Kettleblack brothers.  Yes, I know they are not in the show, but I do NOT automatically assume that just b/c something was left out of the show that the showrunners made a conscious decision to change somebody's character.  Oh, no.  My first assumption when something is left out is that they cut it to save time, period, unless we are specifically told or shown differently.  Indeed, for all we know, the Kettleblack brothers may be in the show-universe, and Cersei may have had sex with all three of them, just like in the books, but we just weren't shown it.  Now, I'm not saying this IS true, but it IS possible.  And even if that did not actually occur in the show, I have no evidence that Cersei's character has been changed for the show in this fundamental way.  None.  Absence of proof is not necessarily proof of absence. (In other words, just cuz they didn't show her doing those things does NOT mean she didn't, OR that she WOULDN'T)

Regarding Maggy's prophecy of 3 kids for Cersei, I believe the show has already tossed that out the window.  I believe show-Cersei's story (told to Cat) about a first child she had with Robert as the father.  The alternative is that Cersei is borderline insane, telling huge a huge whopper of a lie which Cat could EASILY have discovered the truth about, for which Cersei had no motivation to lie.  My goodness, what if Cat had mentioned the story to Ned, and Ned had mentioned it to Robert, who was himself right there at Winterfell at the time???  And Robert had say "Whoa, wait, WHAT?? Why is Cersei telling such bizarre and outrageous lies???"   Naw, Cersei wouldn't risk that, especially for NO gain.

In any event, the question of whether Cersei's current baby will live past birth is not relevant to determining who the father is.

Finally, yeah, as I've said, I'm still open minded to it being Euron's.

On 9/6/2017 at 9:10 AM, Jaehaerys Stark said:

To address your doubt about the "little birds", let's not forget, they are not just children.  He refers to his spies as such due to the phrase "A little bird told me..."  Remember Ros?  She was considered one of Varys' little birds.  Anybody in his spy network is referred to as a "little bird".  Examples of things they have discovered or had a hand in include reporting on Bran's fall and the Valyrian dagger, reporting all of Dany's actions  while she was in Essos, Littlefinger's plans regarding Sansa going with him to the Eyrie, tracking Tyrion after he was abducted in Volantis through to his arrival in Mereen, infiltrating the Sons of the Harpy in order to find the prostitiute helping them and eventually unmasking their leadership, and of course killing Maester Pycell and blowing up the Sept of Baelor.  Those are just a few examples.  So could they have found out about the meeting?  Absolutely.

Tyrion and Bronn would have to have been UTTER FOOLS to not only meet where someone could see them, but actually talk where someone could hear them, whether the "little birds" in question are kids or adults.  I'm assuming neither Tyrion nor Bronn is an utter fool, much less both, at the same time, on the same matter, when Tyrion could be KILLED just for being seen in King's Landing.

And he wan't just "seen," someone knew what he and Bronn discussed!!!!  I find that nothing short of remarkable, almost impossible to believe unless the simplest explanation I can think of (Occam's Razor) is true:  Bronn told Cersei himself.

On 9/6/2017 at 9:10 AM, Jaehaerys Stark said:

Now about Bronn and Jaime not riding out together, I think Bronn meets up with him for sure to join him.  The show seems to lead us to believe that Jaime left post haste.  Maybe in his rush to go, he didn't find Bronn, but instead had someone message him about what is going on.  Bronn will meet up with him down the road.  I guarantee it.  I think the scene was meant to be solo for Jaime for effect.  Just a simple seen of lone Jaime as he see snow falling on KL.  Makes for a nice fade to black for the finale.  I wouldn't worry too much about Bronn's absence at this junction.  They will ride/fight together again for sure.

I cannot imagine why Jaime would leave alone with a plan to meet up with Bronn later.  Why?  In addition to me not being able to imagine why they would do that, doing so is actually dangerous for jaime.  He is missing his sword hand, he is VERY vulnerable, which is a big part of why Bronn has been almost constantly at Jaime's side for 3 years.  Look, when Jaime went to Dorne, he took ONE person with him, just ONE.  And it was...Bronn.  Why?  B/c Jaime trusts him, and b/c Bronn CAN fight, quite well in fact.  Bronn is very competent in a lot of way, and Jaime knows it.  Why would Jaime leave alone to meet up with Bronn later?  For all Jaime knows, he'll be jumped by bandits, robbed and killed before he's two miles from King's Landing.

 

On 9/6/2017 at 9:10 AM, Jaehaerys Stark said:

I agree with your valnqar prediction that Jaime will kill Cersei.  But let me throw this one at you:  what if Jaime kills Cersei, but turns out it's really Arya wearing Jaime's face.  I think there is a strong possibility this happens.  Now that robot Bran is starting to spill the beans on all kinds of things now, the whole reason all of this foolishness started is bound to come out.  He will eventually tell someone about what he saw in that tower, and about Jaime pushing him out the window.  With Jaime riding North, this HAS to come out.  I foresee a situation where it is revealed, but forgiven by most due to Jaime's participation in the Great War.  But Arya will not forgive him, kill him, take his face and go to KL to cross off the #1 name on her list.  What do you think of that one?

That would be an interesting twist, but I honestly don't think it will happen.

Jaime is a MAJOR character in his own right.  I don't believe the end of his story will be that Arya finds out what hed did to Bran, crosses Jaime off, steals his face, and then kills Cersei.

My personal opinion is that Jaime will die a hero, fully redeemed, but still hated by far more people than not (for a number of different reasons)

But hey, you could be right.  The show and books have taken some very surprising twists and turns, and maybe this will be yet another.

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On 9/6/2017 at 6:10 AM, Jaehaerys Stark said:

In the show, she told Catlyn she had a child who died, but that may have been a lie.

I don't think it was a lie. Remember, later in S1, she talks about their dead baby with Robert himself, and, while you can explain why he might lie to Cat, why would she lie to Robert, and how would he fall for it?

But that doesn't mean the show has thrown out the prophecy.

Most pre-modern cultures don't count children who die before reaching some landmark. Look at Henry VIII for example. When people say he had 8 children, they're counting Henry, Mary I, Elizabeth I, Edward VI, Henry FitzRoy, and their favorite 3 of his other possible bastards. Nobody ever counts the boy who died an hour after birth, or the girl who lived more than a week; they're listed along with the stillbirths.

Westeros's child mortality doesn't seem quite as bad as England's, but still, Cersei and Robert's child didn't even make it to his official naming, which seems to usually happen a few minutes after birth. So it's at least pretty plausible that people in Westeros would count Joffrey as her first child, not her second, and say that she had only three children, not four. As a woman who went through childbirth and was traumatized by the death, she may privately disagree, but I still don't think she'd call Maggy's prophecy incorrect.

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On 5.9.2017 at 9:18 PM, MinscS2 said:

Bronn openly disprove of Cersei in front of Jamie several times this season:
"I'm sure Queen Cerseis reign will be quiet and peaceable." (Ep 4)
"May as well jump back in that river (if you're gonna tell Cersei)" (Ep 5)
Let alone the fact that she has a long history of trying to have Tyrion, one of Bronns best friends, killed.
Doubt Cersei would be so willing to punish Bronn as well if she had slept with him earlier, unless he was really really bad in bed.

I can't even imagine him in bed with her from a story PoV, and from the actors PoV is is, as you point out, impossible.

I'd say the chances of her Baby being Bronn's is 0%, Jamies 67% and Eurons 33%.

Very interesting, @Cron Especially that you picked Bronn not been seen with Cersei in the show. Why would they bring it up in the show? It could be made to amuse the audience because we know they have some quarrel irl. But it would give an effective twist to the show, if he was the father indeed. I would say to Minsc that Bronn telling Jamie things like that about Cersei could be misleading us as well. He's been hanging around Jamie quite a lot and even Jamie asked him about that once. Maybe Bronn's been after Cersei.

Everyone just dismisses the idea at once because they have that said real life quarrel.

Edited by Deminelle

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On 5.09.2017 at 11:58 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Would be kinda funny, since Jerome Flynn (Bronn) and Lena Headey (Cersei) hate each other in real life.

Why ?

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