Why didn't Tywin have Tyrion killed?

[Falcon2909]

He always hated Tyrion. Why not have him subtly and quietly killed, like in a hunting 'accident' for example?

[UnFit Finlay]

I'd say it was a combination of religious superstition, as he said himself, and pride. Tywin did not like to be laughed at. He knew people were mocking him for having a deformed dwarf for a son but Tyrion's death, in "suspicious" circumstances, would only prove them right and show uncharacteristic amount of weakness. Really not his style. Instead he, at least publicly, embraced Tyrion and acted like his deformity didn't exist.

There's also an argument that he loved Joanna too much to have her child killed. I don't believe that though. He clearly despises Tyrion.

[Makk]

As rampant speculation, I have always wondered if Tywin was almost infertile. He wouldn't have known at first, and the birth of Jaime and Cersei would have led to him not believing that for longer. But as he came into more power, and potentially had a number of exclusive mistresses, if none of them were producing children he might begin to wonder.

Tywin knew Aerys had a thing for Joanna, and he would know better than the narrator of twoiaf if it was possible that Aerys was the father of the twins. But he couldn't know for sure, so he would never harm his "perfect" children that would bring much status to his house. But keeping Joanna more heavily watched, after another six years of trying she becomes pregnant again. Tywin is relieved as this time he is certain that the child will be his. And then Tyrion arrives and Joanna dies. Tywin is left with a misformed baby he knows is his, and a couple of perfect twins he starts to have more suspicions about. As Tyrion is the only child of his he is absolutely certain he sired he waits.

As time passes Tyrion embarrasses him more and more, but also proves to be quite clever. He dare not harm what could be his only son, although his hatred towards Tyrion is largely self loathing. His mistresses continue to fail to fall pregnant making his fears seem more likely. Tywin is torn between growing suspicions of Jaime and Cersei's paternity and not knowing for certain. The idea of Tywin secretly obsessing over the possibility of this for years and years appeals to me. And then Genna makes her unwitting comment to Tywin which is what he is privately thinking and it hits a raw nerve.

[Dorian Martell's son]

32 minutes ago, Falcon2909 said:

He always hated Tyrion. Why not have him subtly and quietly killed, like in a hunting 'accident' for example?

kinslaying is just below violation of the guest right as the most horrible thing a person can do. Tywin was ruthless, but he had morals to a degree 

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

kinslaying is just below violation of the guest right as the most horrible thing a person can do. Tywin was ruthless, but he had morals to a degree 

 

I think kinslaying is actually just above violation of guest right. It's one thing to kill your guests, but your own family? That's just wrong-er.

Tywin may not have believed in  he kinslaying curse but he knew other people believed in it, and would never take the chance of people thinking he was guilty of such a thing. Given that his disappointment in his youngest son was well-known, any accident that befell Tyrion would have been easy for people to ascribe to kinslaying. It's one thing to throw him into the thick of a battle and hope he goes down, but it's quite another to actually engineer his death.

[Universal Sword Donor]

3 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

kinslaying is just below violation of the guest right as the most horrible thing a person can do. Tywin was ruthless, but he had morals to a degree 

 

 

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I think kinslaying is actually just above violation of guest right. It's one thing to kill your guests, but your own family? That's just wrong-er.

Tywin may not have believed in  he kinslaying curse but he knew other people believed in it, and would never take the chance of people thinking he was guilty of such a thing. Given that his disappointment in his youngest son was well-known, any accident that befell Tyrion would have been easy for people to ascribe to kinslaying. It's one thing to throw him into the thick of a battle and hope he goes down, but it's quite another to actually engineer his death.

Kinslaying and Guest Right are equivalent, based on the WOIAF. If you look at the novels themselves, most people tend to think kinslaying is the worst crime.

[Wild Bill]

4 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

I'd say it was a combination of religious superstition, as he said himself, and pride. Tywin did not like to be laughed at. He knew people were mocking him for having a deformed dwarf for a son but Tyrion's death, in "suspicious" circumstances, would only prove them right and show uncharacteristic amount of weakness. Really not his style. Instead he, at least publicly, embraced Tyrion and acted like his deformity didn't exist.

There's also an argument that he loved Joanna too much to have her child killed. I don't believe that though. He clearly despises Tyrion.

I generally agree, and will amplify (though not to 11...)

Whether Tywin's psychology is one of great superiority, or one of some inferiority that he compensates for by projecting superiority... But, forgetting psychology completely, Tywin does consider everything very closely, and considers his Houses' position (and his being its defender) very carefully. Any sign of weakness is a problem.

Having a "monster" for a son, killing his wife in childbirth, is a challenge. Simply killing the boy off is a sign of weakness, showing that Tywin has vulnerabilities.

If there were any taint that Joanna was unfaithful, I can imagine two outcomes. Joanna is already dead in childbirth, but Tywin would publicly kill infant Tyrion (not from some convenient accident) and exclaim the perfidy of Joanna and the her seducer, the King - leading to Rebellion. This, not planned and risky move shows a vulnerability. The other outcome is keeping quiet and not showing any vulnerability - to continue to be Aery's Hand for a number of years (which had already included a humiliating rejection of the marriage proposal of Cercei to Rhaegar.)

So far as we know, Tywin's distaste/hate for his son, Tyrion, is mostly private. Though surely the stories from his guard about Tysha were widely circulated in Lannister-land. And, the Dorne rejection of a Royal marriage with Tyrion would surely irk. Nonetheless, Tywin considers Tyrion worthy of sending to Kings Landing to clean up the mess that Cercei and Joffrey made.

[Makk]

Any thoughts on why Tywin didn't let him sail with Gerion to ruins of Valyria?

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"I know some sailors say that any man who lays eyes upon that coast is doomed." He did not believe such tales himself, no more than his uncle had. Gerion Lannister had set sail for Valyria when Tyrion was eighteen, intent on recovering the lost ancestral blade of House Lannister and any other treasures that might have survived the Doom. Tyrion had wanted desperately to go with them, but his lord father had dubbed the voyage a "fool's quest," and forbidden him to take part.

Just not letting him do what he wanted or could he have been somewhat protective of him?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

55 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

 

Kinslaying and Guest Right are equivalent, based on the WOIAF. If you look at the novels themselves, most people tend to think kinslaying is the worst crime.

Okay so they are on par, but the public perception is that one is worse than the other. Tywin definitely does not want to be publicly perceived as a kinslayer.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

1 minute ago, Makk said:

Any thoughts on why Tywin didn't let him sail with Gerion to ruins of Valyria?

Just not letting him do what he wanted or could he have been somewhat protective of him?

More protective of himself. If he let his son go on what he himself had called a fool's quest, and the kid never came back, it goes right back to potentially accusations of kinslaying. Part of me wants to think that Tywin did protect Tyrion a little bit, for the sake of Joanna at least, but I just can't quite believe that.

[Universal Sword Donor]

10 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Okay so they are on par, but the public perception is that one is worse than the other. Tywin definitely does not want to be publicly perceived as a kinslayer.

No they are literally perceived as equal. But if you look at actual canon vs the broad perception from WOIAF, it slants more heavily to kinslaying. Guest Right is more important in the north, Freys not withstanding.

[Makk]

2 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Okay so they are on par, but the public perception is that one is worse than the other. Tywin definitely does not want to be publicly perceived as a kinslayer.

I doubt he would be too concerned about the unprovable rumors of him making Tyrion have an accident.

He seemed to revel in his harsh and uncompromising reputation. He cared nothing about how he was loathed in Kings landing (and Dorne) for his brutal sack of the city. He seemed to enjoy the Rains of Castamere (and there were probably some second cousins or other distant kin killed then) and had his envoy play it when he wanted to cower people. If people thought he cared not for superstition it would probably please him as well.

I think if he had any doubts of Tyrions paternity he wouldn't hesitate to have him killed regardless of any kinslaying superstitions or rumors. I do think there was some sort of warped pride in him. We should also question why he put Tyrion in charge of kingslanding during the war.

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

23 minutes ago, Makk said:

I doubt he would be too concerned about the unprovable rumors of him making Tyrion have an accident.

He seemed to revel in his harsh and uncompromising reputation. He cared nothing about how he was loathed in Kings landing (and Dorne) for his brutal sack of the city. He seemed to enjoy the Rains of Castamere (and there were probably some second cousins or other distant kin killed then) and had his envoy play it when he wanted to cower people. If people thought he cared not for superstition it would probably please him as well.

I think if he had any doubts of Tyrions paternity he wouldn't hesitate to have him killed regardless of any kinslaying superstitions or rumors. I do think there was some sort of warped pride in him. We should also question why he put Tyrion in charge of kingslanding during the war.

 

It's one thing to be brutal and ruthless with your enemies, it's another to kill your own son, or be thought to have done so. Tywin doesn't want any scandal to rock House Lannister. Few scandals would be worse than the great, prideful Tywin Lannister being accused of getting rid of the monstrous son the gods inflicted upon him as punishment.

I don't. Since they can't do DNA tests, doubts are not enough. He'd have to be absolutely certain Tyrion wasn't his child to have him killed.

That's that warped pride you mentioned. He could only trust a family member to try and straighten Joffrey out--doesn't want to air the dirty linen in public you might say. Tyrion also isn't in danger of giving Joff any undue respect or deference. And whether Tyrion is Tywin's son or not he is still Joanna's so he's still family.

[UnFit Finlay]

19 hours ago, Wild Bill said:

So far as we know, Tywin's distaste/hate for his son, Tyrion, is mostly private. Though surely the stories from his guard about Tysha were widely circulated in Lannister-land. And, the Dorne rejection of a Royal marriage with Tyrion would surely irk. Nonetheless, Tywin considers Tyrion worthy of sending to Kings Landing to clean up the mess that Cercei and Joffrey made.

A lot depends on HOW that story was told though. Littlefinger isn't the best source, of course, but the version he told Sansa was that Tyrion got bored of Tysha and gave her to the guardsmen. Considering Tyrion was there, made no attempt to stop it and even joined in as well as his reputation afterwards, it's not hard to imagine that that's the version that the guardsmen told.

19 hours ago, Makk said:

Any thoughts on why Tywin didn't let him sail with Gerion to ruins of Valyria?

Just not letting him do what he wanted or could he have been somewhat protective of him?

I assumed it was shame. He didn't want foreign peoples first impressions of the ancient and proud House Lannister to be, well, Tyrion.

In fact, he said as much when he stopped him from travelling the Free Cities as well didn't he?

19 hours ago, Makk said:

I doubt he would be too concerned about the unprovable rumors of him making Tyrion have an accident.

He seemed to revel in his harsh and uncompromising reputation. He cared nothing about how he was loathed in Kings landing (and Dorne) for his brutal sack of the city. He seemed to enjoy the Rains of Castamere (and there were probably some second cousins or other distant kin killed then) and had his envoy play it when he wanted to cower people. If people thought he cared not for superstition it would probably please him as well.

Nah. Tyrion's death wouldn't prove Tywin was above superstition, it would prove the opposite. People believed that Tyrion was a punishment from the Gods for Tywin's arrogance. If Tyrion died, even by accident, then it would just show that he believed it too, and people would laugh all the harder.

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

Tywin didn't love Tyrion.

Tywin didn't want him to inherit his castle.

But he thought that someone would want to marry his daughter to Tyrion. After all, he is a Lannister.

[Makk]

3 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

I assumed it was shame. He didn't want foreign peoples first impressions of the ancient and proud House Lannister to be, well, Tyrion.

In fact, he said as much when he stopped him from travelling the Free Cities as well didn't he?

You are correct in that he didn't want Tyrion to visit the nine free cities and he said...

Quote

Lord Tywin had put an end to that hope ten days before his dwarf son's sixteenth nameday, when Tyrion asked to tour the Nine Free Cities, as his uncles had done at that same age. "My brothers could be relied upon to bring no shame upon House Lannister," his father had replied. "Neither ever wed a whore." And when Tyrion had reminded him that in ten days he would be a man grown, free to travel where he wished, Lord Tywin had said, "No man is free. Only children and fools think elsewise. Go, by all means. Wear motley and stand upon your head to amuse the spice lords and the cheese kings. Just see that you pay your own way and put aside any thoughts of returning." At that the boy's defiance had crumbled.

I think you can assume his blunt answer to this was his genuine thoughts, there doesn't seem any reason for subterfuge, although there may have also been more to it. But visiting Valyria is quite different. There aren't too many people or whores in Valyria he could embarrass Tywin in front of, and it was a Lannister ship. And if he was worried about embarrassment why wouldn't he say the same thing for the Valyrian voyage? Instead he simply dubbed it a fools quest and forbade Tyrion from going.

4 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

Nah. Tyrion's death wouldn't prove Tywin was above superstition, it would prove the opposite. People believed that Tyrion was a punishment from the Gods for Tywin's arrogance. If Tyrion died, even by accident, then it would just show that he believed it too, and people would laugh all the harder.

I don't agree with your correlation here at all. If people believe Tyrion was a gods punishment for Tywins arrogance (and that's a stretch) then why would Tywin potentially having Tyrion killed off show that he believed it? If anything that would show that Tywin didn't even fear the gods.

[UnFit Finlay]

3 hours ago, Makk said:

You are correct in that he didn't want Tyrion to visit the nine free cities and he said...

I think you can assume his blunt answer to this was his genuine thoughts, there doesn't seem any reason for subterfuge, although there may have also been more to it. But visiting Valyria is quite different. There aren't too many people or whores in Valyria he could embarrass Tywin in front of, and it was a Lannister ship. And if he was worried about embarrassment why wouldn't he say the same thing for the Valyrian voyage? Instead he simply dubbed it a fools quest and forbade Tyrion from going.

It wouldn't be a direct journey though. They'd have to stop in the Free Cities for supplies and, most likely, would never even make it to Valyria I'm not sure why he wouldn't say the same thing unless it was because Gerion was going. After all, he had an acknowledged bastard which I can't imagine that Tywin was too approving of.

There's also the possibility that Tywin knew the likelyhood that Tyrion wouldn't come back. Which is a nice segue onto your next point.

Quote

I don't agree with your correlation here at all. If people believe Tyrion was a gods punishment for Tywins arrogance (and that's a stretch) then why would Tywin potentially having Tyrion killed off show that he believed it? If anything that would show that Tywin didn't even fear the gods.

Oberyn flat out told Tyrion that that is what people were saying. It's a different world, obviously, and, much like the story about Selyse and Patchface, people want to believe the unbelievable when it involves the humiliation of the overly proud.

I'll try and rephrase: If Tywin has Tyrion killed then it shows, at the very least, that he believed that there was something wrong with Tyrion right? It wouldn't be seen as a sign that he didn't fear the Gods, it would be seen as an emotional act, one of panic and desperation, which is not what Tywin was known for. As Tyrion said himself, *most people* would've left him out in the woods to die. That's not an act of bravery.

By embracing Tyrion, at least publicly, trying to arrange marriage for him with Elia Martell and even going to war for him years later, Tywin was basically embracing his "punishment" and trying to show the entire realm that NOTHING could dent his pride.

[The Sunland Lord]

With Jaime heirless (legally), he had hope Tyrion will father a Lannister heir and continue the name through the male line.

And, you see how he considers Jaime lost when in captivity and gives Tyrion his role as an acting hand of the king with the words: "You're my son". A different treatment already. Not a coincidence. He knew life is uncertain in Westeros.

So, his second son must be embraced in a case he loses his first, like it or not. 

I think this was his way of understanding things.

 

 

[hodorisfaclessman]

Tywin doesnt hate tyrion..dun dun dun

He sees him as a source of ridicule and a waster but he doesnt hate him ,he wants him to be a proper lannister. We forget that the unreliable narrator pov applies to tyrion himself who until books start has been a drunken whore chasing embarassment despite his fathers twisted 'education/lesson' about common women/whores.

tywin we know has his reasons for being so extreme about his family rep and how he precieves common ladies(not excusing it just putting across whats his perspective would likely be)

Tyrion believes he gets kl just as tywin has 'given up on jamie' but he negates the fact tywin is suprised tyrion survived and recruited allies and displays wayy more political judgement in the tent than the assembled uncles.

He of course gets angry tywin isnt singing his praises for blackwater but we forget its tywin that won the battle and he did check on tyrion to ensure hed survive.

We know he still held hopes of jamie being heir to casterly rock and thus rebukes tyrion....but offers to find him suitable match for a lannister 

Its not til his kids squabbling forces him to outright choose cersei over him does he move on tyrion...and still would have him go to the wall if he hadnt screwed it up

[BalerionTheCat]

Tywin would have killed him. Someway, an unfortunate accident. IF he was sure he wasn't his son. But he didn't know. And kinslaying was a line Tywin didn't want to cross. Nothing else was preventing it, IMO.