In GRRM's world, what is the value of being a good man?

[GyantSpyder]

As for lesson, I think it starts with looking at your own world and the things that matter to you and questioning what the consequences of your actions are and whether your priorities are in the right place. That if we all keep doing what we've always done, we're gong to keep getting what we've always gotten.

[DominusNovus]

2 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

Not even a little bit. The first time he took Hodor's body, sure, maybe chalk it up to inexperience and ignorance, and the need was dire. But then he kept forcing Hodor into the back of his own mind, terrifying him every time, a form of assault we're led to believe in worse than rape, just because he was bored and wanted to explore and didn't give a shit about Hodor.

He's about as evil as it gets.

A valid point, but I can't agree that Bran is super evil because of it.  He's doing something wrong, but I'm not sure he has enough of a frame of reference to truly appreciate how wrong it is.  He's a kid with nearly unlimited power, and he's not being trained in that particular aspect of his power insofar as what is right and wrong there.  He's certainly in danger of growing up into an evil man because of that, and its a very interesting discussion as to how far down that dark path he'll go.

[Damon_Tor]

1 hour ago, DominusNovus said:

A valid point, but I can't agree that Bran is super evil because of it.  He's doing something wrong, but I'm not sure he has enough of a frame of reference to truly appreciate how wrong it is.  He's a kid with nearly unlimited power, and he's not being trained in that particular aspect of his power insofar as what is right and wrong there.  He's certainly in danger of growing up into an evil man because of that, and its a very interesting discussion as to how far down that dark path he'll go.

It's not like he's unaware of the horror Hodor feels; we learn about it through Bran's own point of view. Does it matter that nobody told him not to? No. Whether or not it's taboo amongst the larger skinchanger community is irrelevant; morality does not depend on social norms. he is causing suffering, he is aware of it, and he continues to do it for no other reason than because he wants to, serving no greater good. Were he doing this to an enemy we'd still call him evil: imagine if Ramsay took Theon's body for a spin, that would be an undoubtedly evil act. But the fact that he's doing this to a friend, a friend who has sacrificed for him, a friend who is uniquely incapable of handling that kind of fear... it puts Bran on another level.

And don't misunderstand, Bran is still on a dark path, but he passed "evil" a while ago, and he isn't even slowing down.

[Angel Eyes]

4 hours ago, ChuckPunch said:

Everyone is morally grey and there is no perfect person or outcome. 

And then there are some who are morally black, evil. Just look at Joffrey, Ramsay and the Mountain.

 

4 hours ago, GyantSpyder said:

I don't think you should necessarily look at a story where a man or woman does something right because it's the right thing to do with no expected reward and tragically dies as a result of it as an indictment of doing the right thing. It's the one thing Jesus and Movie Cowboys have in common - well, that and walking in the desert.

I guess I'd feel better if those efforts made by the characters actually mean something down the road. Take Robb and Catelyn. They go to war to avenge Ned and rescue their daughters/sisters. Then the Red Wedding happens, with Catelyn's body reanimating as the vengeful Lady Stoneheart. What's her purpose anyways? And everybody's stupid. 

 

[DominusNovus]

1 hour ago, Damon_Tor said:

It's not like he's unaware of the horror Hodor feels; we learn about it through Bran's own point of view. Does it matter that nobody told him not to? No. Whether or not it's taboo amongst the larger skinchanger community is irrelevant; morality does not depend on social norms. he is causing suffering, he is aware of it, and he continues to do it for no other reason than because he wants to, serving no greater good. Were he doing this to an enemy we'd still call him evil: imagine if Ramsay took Theon's body for a spin, that would be an undoubtedly evil act. But the fact that he's doing this to a friend, a friend who has sacrificed for him, a friend who is uniquely incapable of handling that kind of fear... it puts Bran on another level.

And don't misunderstand, Bran is still on a dark path, but he passed "evil" a while ago, and he isn't even slowing down.

I can't help but find his possession of Hodor as less horrific than you do, while still not condoning it. Perhaps it is because it is an action so far out of our ability to relate to.

[Mladen]

I feel that most people missed some things in Martin's prose when it comes to "good" losing. "Good" is not losing. All the 6 main heroes of the saga are overwhelmingly positive figures. Yes, they have flaws, they are not perfect, but at the end of the day, when all is settled, we can call them "good". Yes, terrible things happened. People who shouldn't have died are dead. Innocents bled. But through that, we see moments of pure light. There is love in Martin's world and that is one of the biggest topics of the series. In that equation between love and honor, love kicks honors ass every single time in Martin's world. Ned, Jaime, Theon... They are all just some of the examples of that. I do believe that "good" will prevail. It won't be some magnificent victory. They will be burdened by those they lost, tragedies they survived. But, they will usher the new world. And that is the point of ASOIAF. Ending one cycle and beginning something new. Something better. And if you ask me, that is rather noble thing to write about.

[The Sunland Lord]

It's a good lesson from Martin. Being decent doesn't reward you. No one cares if you're a good boy in real life too. 

Rewards come after some great effort, backed up by patience and many, many skills and capabilities. Or by luck, sometimes. But, never solely for being decent and dutiful. Those are a must in many people's eyes.

Also, this is one reason why this story is so loveable. It's not only being plain evil that gets you undone. Also being naive, trusting, egoistic, emotional is punishable. 

 

[DominusNovus]

1 hour ago, Risto said:

I feel that most people missed some things in Martin's prose when it comes to "good" losing. "Good" is not losing. All the 6 main heroes of the saga are overwhelmingly positive figures. Yes, they have flaws, they are not perfect, but at the end of the day, when all is settled, we can call them "good". Yes, terrible things happened. People who shouldn't have died are dead. Innocents bled. But through that, we see moments of pure light. There is love in Martin's world and that is one of the biggest topics of the series. In that equation between love and honor, love kicks honors ass every single time in Martin's world. Ned, Jaime, Theon... They are all just some of the examples of that. I do believe that "good" will prevail. It won't be some magnificent victory. They will be burdened by those they lost, tragedies they survived. But, they will usher the new world. And that is the point of ASOIAF. Ending one cycle and beginning something new. Something better. And if you ask me, that is rather noble thing to write about.

Who are you considering the 6 main heroes, for clarity, here?

[Angel Eyes]

18 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

It's a good lesson from Martin. Being decent doesn't reward you. No one cares if you're a good boy in real life too. 

Rewards come after some great effort, backed up by patience and many, many skills and capabilities. Or by luck, sometimes. But, never solely for being decent and dutiful. Those are a must in many people's eyes.

Also, this is one reason why this story is so loveable. It's not only being plain evil that gets you undone. Also being naive, trusting, egoistic, emotional is punishable. 

 

So the lesson is not to trust, not to love?

[Nevets]

2 hours ago, DominusNovus said:

Who are you considering the 6 main heroes, for clarity, here?

The 6 main characters are usually considered to be: Jon, Tyrion, Daenerys, Sansa, Arya, and Bran. 

All are fundamentally decent people, but have made mistakes, some serious, and some have done some pretty bad things/.  But I would say there is no way that any of them is anywhere near a bad person.  And, remember, the North follow the Starks because they like them., not because they are mean SOBs like Tywin.  Although Ned can be mean when he has to be (just ask Jorah Mormont).  There is much goodwill for the Starks, which will likely help the kids when they finally make their move.

[chrisdaw]

Determining the moral of a story half way as it stands is fruitless. What would be the lessons to take from other stories half way in?

[Mladen]

5 hours ago, DominusNovus said:

Who are you considering the 6 main heroes, for clarity, here?

 

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

The 6 main characters are usually considered to be: Jon, Tyrion, Daenerys, Sansa, Arya, and Bran. 

This.

This is a cross-generational saga about children growing up and we see that in all 6 arcs. Unlike so many other worlds in fantasy, I believe Westeros will go through rather significant change at the end. And these 6 people will carry out that change.

[Foot_Of_The_King]

On 9/5/2017 at 9:37 PM, falcotron said:

Being a bad man also carries a fatal price.

Valar morghulis.

The point of being a good man in GRRM's world is being a good man, just as it is in the real world. If you're only being decent because you expect to be rewarded for it, you're not all that decent in the first place.

First reply nailed it. 

[DominusNovus]

10 hours ago, Nevets said:

The 6 main characters are usually considered to be: Jon, Tyrion, Daenerys, Sansa, Arya, and Bran. 

All are fundamentally decent people, but have made mistakes, some serious, and some have done some pretty bad things/.  But I would say there is no way that any of them is anywhere near a bad person.  And, remember, the North follow the Starks because they like them., not because they are mean SOBs like Tywin.  Although Ned can be mean when he has to be (just ask Jorah Mormont).  There is much goodwill for the Starks, which will likely help the kids when they finally make their move.

I can't entirely agree, as far as Tyrion or Dany are concerned. Tyrion starts off decent enough, but he's done some terrible things lately. Dany, meanwhile, has the even more dangerous flaw of thinking she's better than she is. If a truly just man is terrifying, how much moreso is someone who isn't just but thinks they are?

I'm not saying that they're not heroic, but I just don't agree that they're overwhelmingly positive.

[Damon_Tor]

12 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

So the lesson is not to trust, not to love?

Pretty much. GRRM has had a pretty fucked up life, particularly in his relationships with women and in being betrayed by the women he loves. He appears to be in a healthy relationship now, but deep down he's still the guy who wrote Meathouse Man.

[chrisdaw]

The point he makes with love, repeatedly, as far as love for a lover goes, is that it is the highborn's duty to forego love in the interest of their house and thus the people they rule, lest their smallfolk bleed. Foregoing love is one of the costs of their privilege.

[Cas Stark]

20 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I guess what I was trying to say is: 

"What lesson is GRRM trying to impart with this downer of a book series?"

Life sucks and then you die.  

[Angel Eyes]

5 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

Pretty much. GRRM has had a pretty fucked up life, particularly in his relationships with women and in being betrayed by the women he loves. He appears to be in a healthy relationship now, but deep down he's still the guy who wrote Meathouse Man.

You know, I sometimes wondered what events shaped GRRM's life. To contrast, J.R.R. Tolkien was heavily influenced by World War I. 

[Angel Eyes]

13 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Determining the moral of a story half way as it stands is fruitless. What would be the lessons to take from other stories half way in?

Well, if GRRM doesn't write any more of the series... what can you go on but half?

[falcotron]

3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

You know, I sometimes wondered what events shaped GRRM's life. To contrast, J.R.R. Tolkien was heavily influenced by World War I. 

Tolkien may have had to deal with WWI, but GRRM had to deal with the 1990s TV industry.