Lord of WF

[falcotron]

Just now, SirArthur said:

Isn't Arya's claim a double loophole ?

1. it requires a legal and accepted will that declares Sansa for not worthy

2. it requires a long thought about the Lannister claim through Sansa while at the same time the Lannisters suggest a marriage with fArya. (if I recall correctly). Granted, Sansa is searched for crimes she did not commit (play A-Team sound here) but she is still a valuable Lannister asset through marriage. 

From the point of view of both the crown and the Boltons: If Sansa is guilty of treason, then most likely either she's automatically attainted unless Tommen says otherwise, or could be attainted by Tommen with a simple decree. So Arya is the presumed Stark heir, but Tommen could change that at a whim if Roose and Ramsay don't play nice.

From the point of view of any Northern Lords who are considering rejecting the validity of Baratheon and Bolton rule, it won't matter if Sansa is guilty of treason to the crown, but it very much matters that Sansa is (as far as they know) under control of the Lannisters and married to one of them—that means she's an even worse pretender to back than fArya.

Getting back to the law from the crown/Bolton point of view: A Stark marriage isn't even technically necessary here—Joffrey declared the entire Stark line in attainder, and then gave the Lord Paramountship and Wardenship to Roose Bolton, so Roose can freely give Winterfell to Ramsay if he wants. But fArya is practically very important to the Boltons to maintain hold over their bannermen. The fact that the Lannisters could preempt her with Sansa is another reason for Roose and Ramsay to play nice.

And of course the fact that the Lannisters could reveal fArya to be a fake gives them even more hold over the Boltons.

So yes, the whole thing is somewhat tenuous for Ramsay—but that's by design, exactly what the Lannisters wanted. And Roose accepted it because it's still much better to have fArya at the sufferance of the crown than to have nothing.

[Philokles]

21 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Isn't Arya's claim a double loophole ?

1. it requires a legal and accepted will that declares Sansa for not worthy

Robb's will probably provides that. It would be unsurprising if there is a clause in the will saying that Arya is heir ahead of Jon if she is found alive and free. It would forestall some of Catelyn's objections and explain why Lady Stoneheart is pouring so many resources into finding Arya.

Really the true heir is still Bran, as all this was done under false pretences.

[Nevets]

22 hours ago, Kytheros said:

The Will explicitly names Jon as Robb's Heir in absence of Robb having a Heir of Body (Child). That's an override of the normal order of succession. If the Will had only legitimized Jon, Jon's position in the succession would be a lot murkier, but it didn't. The Will doesn't just legitimize Jon, it legitimizes Jon and then explicitly names Jon as Robb's Heir in absence of a Heir of Body (which means child).

Actually, we do not know what the will's provisions are, because we haven't seen it.  We don't know what provision was made for Arya; we don't know precisely what status Jon is given, or whether that status is conditioned on his leaving the NW.  We also don't know whether Bran and Rickon's deaths are mentioned as the reason for his actions toward Jon.  If they are, the will could be invalid, since they are alive.  About the only thing we can say for certain is that Sansa is disinherited, which will make any play for Winterfell on her part difficult, especially if she is perceived as someone else's puppet.

At present, there is either no rightful ruler of Winterfell, or a whole bunch of them.  Pretty much, who you regard as the rightful ruler depends on where you sit,, who you like, and what rules you accept, not to mention what knowledge you have about events on the ground.  It's one gigantic mess, and, knowing George, it isn't going to get any clearer.

[falcotron]

17 minutes ago, Nevets said:

At present, there is either no rightful ruler of Winterfell, or a whole bunch of them.  Pretty much, who you regard as the rightful ruler depends on where you sit,, who you like, and what rules you accept, not to mention what knowledge you have about events on the ground.

Exactly.

And of course the same is true for the Iron Throne, and the Riverlands, and the Stormlands, and the Hornwood estate, and… There's nothing special about Winterfell compared to any other disputed succession except that it's even more complicated than most, so there's even less reason to think there's a "right" legal answer that would somehow settle everything.

[Clegane'sPup]

22 hours ago, falcotron said:

Ramsay's claim to Winterfell is being granted it by Lord Paramount Roose Bolton.

You say Lord Paramount I say Warden of the North as granted to Roose via Tywin via King Tommen. If Roose could make Ramsey Lord of WF he wouldn't have needed a declaration declaring Ramsey legitimate nor would they have needed a fArya.

22 hours ago, falcotron said:

Does he? I thought he only knows that Bran was still alive and went north of the Wall? In that case, it would be reasonable to assume than even if Bran isn't dead he's probably lost and unlikely to be recovered in the foreseeable future, so it's reasonable to call Rickon the heir.

It would also be reasonable to assume that Rickon did not survive. Wex threw a knife at a map. Why is Manderly taking an Ironborn mute word that Rickon is alive.

22 hours ago, falcotron said:

The two original main reasons for this fan theory—the discrepancy in Jeyne's hips, and the discrepancy in her sister's age—have been confirmed to be errors, not clues.

Also, the predominant original version of the theory had Jeyne secretly taking fertility herbs, but we now know that she was actually taking anti-conception herbs given by her mother Sybell as part of her plot with Tywin.

That doesn't necessarily mean it's not true. There are other theories that could work (e.g., Sybell was surprised to learn her daughter was pregnant, the Blackfish showed up and spirited Jeyne away before Sybell could do anything, and then Sybell had to lie to Jaime to cover up), but they don't have any more textual support than all kinds of other theories (e.g., Jeyne wasn't pregnant, the Blackfish showed up and spirited her away anyway, and he got her pregnant with a fake Robb heir). And when a theory's original motivation and original mechanism both turn out to be wrong, reaching for another way the theory could be true anyway starts to feel like wishful thinking.

This is a tad bit difficult for me to address. The only thing I can say is that during Jaime's and Sybell's discussion Sybell seemed to be quite adamant that per Tywin's instruction Sybell gave Jeyne a concoction that ensured Jeyne would not become preggers.

[Kytheros]

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

You say Lord Paramount I say Warden of the North as granted to Roose via Tywin via King Tommen. If Roose could make Ramsey Lord of WF he wouldn't have needed a declaration declaring Ramsey legitimate nor would they have needed a fArya.

It would also be reasonable to assume that Rickon did not survive. Wex threw a knife at a map. Why is Manderly taking an Ironborn mute word that Rickon is alive.

This is a tad bit difficult for me to address. The only thing I can say is that during Jaime's and Sybell's discussion Sybell seemed to be quite adamant that per Tywin's instruction Sybell gave Jeyne a concoction that ensured Jeyne would not become preggers.

The Boltons would still need fArya to hold the North in unity to them. Without fArya, the rest of the North would turn on them even faster - it takes a Stark to hold the North.

 

Wex has no apparent reason to be lying. In addition, while Manderly may be skeptical, and probably is, the slightest possibility that Wex is telling the truth needs to be investigated. Plus, it's something that Manderly would want to be true, would want to believe it.

[falcotron]

2 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

If Roose could make Ramsey Lord of WF he wouldn't have needed a declaration declaring Ramsey legitimate nor would they have needed a fArya.

I already addressed this. They need fArya for practical reasons, not legal ones. The North aren't bending the knee to Roose or Tommen out of love, and many lords would love to rebel. But if Arya is married to Ramsay (and Sansa to Tyrion, and the other Starks all dead), they have no pretender to back.

2 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

It would also be reasonable to assume that Rickon did not survive.

First, Wex knows a lot more about where Rickon is going than where Bran is going, because he followed Rickon after they split up.

Second, Bran was going to the Wall, which is in regular contact with the North, so they'd presumably have already heard something if he'd made it. It's not like they had any reason to suspect he'd want to go to a cave beyond the Wall, much less that a series of unlikely coincidences and/or divine or 3ER intervention would make that possible. But Rickon was going to Skagos, which has little contact with the mainland even in the more stable of times, so it's much more likely that they wouldn't have heard about it if he made it there.

2 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Wex threw a knife at a map.

He obviously threw his knife as an actual answer, not a random guess. Since he followed them to the shore of the Bay of Seals, he knows where they're going.

2 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Why is Manderly taking an Ironborn mute word that Rickon is alive.

What does the fact that he's mute have anything to do with it?

And what reason does Wex have to lie? Even if there's nothing at all verifiable in his story (which seems pretty unlikely), why shouldn't Manderly take his word at least far enough to check it out?

2 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

This is a tad bit difficult for me to address. The only thing I can say is that during Jaime's and Sybell's discussion Sybell seemed to be quite adamant that per Tywin's instruction Sybell gave Jeyne a concoction that ensured Jeyne would not become preggers.

Yes, and? I'm saying it's not impossible but not a strong or well-motivated theory, and your response appears to be a bit more evidence that it's not a strong theory.

[Clegane'sPup]

21 hours ago, falcotron said:

I already addressed this. They need fArya for practical reasons, not legal ones. The North aren't bending the knee to Roose or Tommen out of love, and many lords would love to rebel. But if Arya is married to Ramsay (and Sansa to Tyrion, and the other Starks all dead), they have no pretender to back.

Numerous people have addressed this.

21 hours ago, falcotron said:

First, Wex knows a lot more about where Rickon is going than where Bran is going, because he followed Rickon after they split up.

Off topic but let’s talk about Wex --- he is 12 and given to Theon as part of a deal. I dunna think he has traveled the world of Westeros.

A Clash of Kings - Theon II         "Wex," he shouted over the din and clatter. If he's up with one of those poxy whores, I'll strip the hide off him, he was thinking when he finally spied the boy, dicing near the hearth . . . and winning too, by the look of the pile of coins before him. <snip>   Wex had been born dumb . . . which didn't seem to keep him from being clever as any twelve-year-old had a right to be. He was a baseborn son of one of Lord Botley's half brothers. Taking him as squire had been part of the price Theon had paid for his horse.

A Dance with Dragons - Davos IV         Robett Glover took up the tale. "We may never know all that happened at Winterfell, when Ser Rodrik Cassel tried to take the castle back from Theon Greyjoy's ironmen. The Bastard of Bolton claims that Greyjoy murdered Ser Rodrik during a parley. Wex says no. Until he learns more letters we will never know half the truth … but he came to us knowing yes and no, and those can go a long way once you find the right questions."     "It was the Bastard who murdered Ser Rodrik and the men of Winterfell," said Lord Wyman. "He slew Greyjoy's ironmen as well. Wex saw men cut down trying to yield. When we asked how he escaped, he took a chunk of chalk and drew a tree with a face." end quote.

This is the problem I have with Wex. Manderly or his cohorts would have had to ask direct yes and no questions. In order for Wex to communicate Wex would need to draw pictures. Unless, Wex knows how to read & write.  How did Manderly get Wex in custody and how long has Wex been in custody. I’m being facetious now, did they stand around pointing at places on a map saying to words out loud until Wex nodded in agreement?

21 hours ago, falcotron said:

Second, Bran was going to the Wall, which is in regular contact with the North, so they'd presumably have already heard something if he'd made it. It's not like they had any reason to suspect he'd want to go to a cave beyond the Wall, much less that a series of unlikely coincidences and/or divine or 3ER intervention would make that possible. But Rickon was going to Skagos, which has little contact with the mainland even in the more stable of times, so it's much more likely that they wouldn't have heard about it if he made it there.

Did the cripple boy who rides in a basket upon the back of tall Hodor in the company of two crannynog children tell anyone they were going to the Wall or did the Liddle hear reports of the vagabond troupe traveling north via watchers in the woods and hills and decide to check it out?

Rickon going to Skaggos is addressed above in the part that describes the problem I have with Wex.

21 hours ago, falcotron said:

He obviously threw his knife as an actual answer, not a random guess. Since he followed them to the shore of the Bay of Seals, he knows where they're going.

For clarification, you are saying Wex followed Osha, Rickon & Shaggy to the shore of the Bay of Seals and then was later apprehended and taken to White Harbor?

21 hours ago, falcotron said:

What does the fact that he's mute have anything to do with it?

I addressed this above.

21 hours ago, falcotron said:

Yes, and? I'm saying it's not impossible but not a strong or well-motivated theory, and your response appears to be a bit more evidence that it's not a strong theory.

Would you agree that Jeyne W. is King Robb’s Queen? Whether she is pregnant or not, is she a contender to be Lady of WF? Both Tywin and Roose seem to under the impression that their sons need to get a baby in the belly of fArya and Sansa. BTW I don’t remember which happened first. The arrangement to give Roose fArya for Ramsey or marriage of Sansa to Tyrion. I do know that Sansa is the older of the two if that has any weight.

 

[Lucius Lovejoy]

Because Winterfell is currently occupied by the Boltons and they are loyal to the current occupants of the Iron Throne, from that perspective Roose Bolton is Lord Paramount / Warden of the North / Lord of the Dreadfort and Ramsay is Lord of Winterfell.

From the perspective of those supporting King Stannis and in rebellion with the Iron Throne, there is currently no Lord of Winterfell, and they are free to have whatever opinion they want (be it Rickon or Sansa or whomever) until Stannis reclaims winterfell and installs a new Lord.

[falcotron]

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

This is the problem I have with Wex. Manderly or his cohorts would have had to ask direct yes and no questions. In order for Wex to communicate Wex would need to draw pictures. Unless, Wex knows how to read & write.  How did Manderly get Wex in custody and how long has Wex been in custody. I’m being facetious now, did they stand around pointing at places on a map saying to words out loud until Wex nodded in agreement?

We know Wex doesn't read or write very well ("Until he learns more letters…"). And we know that they did in fact use pointing at places on a map as part of their communication—that's the whole point of the knife in the map scene.

Of course we don't get a lot of the background (all the questions you raised), so it is possible to interpret the whole scene as Manderly being so desperate to retrieve one of the Starks that he misinterprets Wex or gives him more credence than he deserves. But the way things are written doesn't imply that interpretation. I think we're expected to take it as that Manderly is right in believing there's a good chance that Rickon really did get on a boat in the Bay of Seals heading for Skagos.

And if Davos doesn't find Rickon, I suspect it will be because Rickon's boat got diverted, or Davos gets diverted, or Rickon is lost or dead on Skagos, not because they misinterpreted Wex in their desperation to believe.

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Did the cripple boy who rides in a basket upon the back of tall Hodor in the company of two crannynog children tell anyone they were going to the Wall or did the Liddle hear reports of the vagabond troupe traveling north via watchers in the woods and hills and decide to check it out?

We don't know. In fact, it's even possible that neither one happened, and all they really know is that Bran was heading north when the party split and hasn't been heard from since, without knowing he was specifically heading for the Wall. But even in that case, it's a whole lot less plausible that Bran has survived but hasn't been seen than that Rickon has, because nobody communicates with Skagos, but people do communicate with the Wall, and Umber lands, and the northern North in general.

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

For clarification, you are saying Wex followed Osha, Rickon & Shaggy to the shore of the Bay of Seals and then was later apprehended and taken to White Harbor?

They learned from Wex that Rickon went to the Bay of Seals to cross to Skagos. We aren't told how Wex knew this, or the details of how he communicated it. Maybe he did actually follow them all that way and was apprehended later, maybe he just overheard them talking about their destination and was being apprehended somewhat earlier. But it doesn't really matter either way.

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Would you agree that Jeyne W. is King Robb’s Queen? Whether she is pregnant or not, is she a contender to be Lady of WF?

Yes, she was the Queen. And we have seen widows inherit before, so she is a possible contender, at the very least for people who insist the North is still an independent kingdom. In fact, we've even specifically seen widows inherit over sisters, including in the North (e.g., Donella Hornwood over Berena Tallhart), so someone probably could even press her claim over Sansa's if someone were interested in doing so.

All I was saying is that the theories people have presented as evidence that she's pregnant with Robb's heir don't work, and your reply seemed to just further confirm my point rather than argue against it. As I said, it's still not actually impossible that she's pregnant. And yes, she still probably counts as a pretender for the throne even if she isn't (although obviously her claim is a lot more inspiring if she is). 

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Both Tywin and Roose seem to under the impression that their sons need to get a baby in the belly of fArya and Sansa. BTW I don’t remember which happened first. The arrangement to give Roose fArya for Ramsey or marriage of Sansa to Tyrion. I do know that Sansa is the older of the two if that has any weight.

I don't remember which happened first either. But Tywin is giving the Boltons a clear message by giving them the younger daughter: You rule at my sufferance. Play nice, and keep order within your realm, and Ramsay and Arya can rule Winterfell. Piss me off, or piss of your nobles so badly that I have to clean up the mess, and I can replace them and you with Tyrion and Sansa.

Anyway, getting a baby in the belly is of huge practical importance, for multiple reasons:

• Anyone revolting against the Boltons/Lannisters needs a Stark pretender. If their only options is Arya with a Bolton son, or Sansa with a Lannister son, nobody's going to revolt.
• In the long run, a Bolton or Lannister heir is much more palatable to the Northern lords if he's also the best Stark heir.
• If the Boltons fail Tywin and he needs to install Sansa as Lord of Winterfell, with a Lannister baby on the way for Tyrion to raise, the Lannisters effectively own the North forever. But if Sansa isn't pregnant, Tyrion could die, leaving her free to remarry some Northern lord and pump out Northern heirs that Tywin has no connection to or hold over at all.
• Any Tyrion-Sansa children are future contenders for Winterfell for as long as the Lannisters want them to be. Even if Tywin dies and leaves Casterly Rock to Tyrion's firstborn son (presumably because the seven hells have frozen over…), King Tommen could still install the second son in Winterfell if the Boltons become a problem.

 

[Kytheros]

Sansa was married to Tyrion shortly after the Blackwater. She was his "reward" in Tywin's eyes.

This is some time before the Red Wedding.

The Boltons only get fArya after the Red Wedding. After the Purple Wedding, in fact. After Sansa's disappeared.

[Clegane'sPup]

21 hours ago, Kytheros said:

Sansa was married to Tyrion shortly after the Blackwater. She was his "reward" in Tywin's eyes.

This is some time before the Red Wedding.

The Boltons only get fArya after the Red Wedding. After the Purple Wedding, in fact. After Sansa's disappeared.

I can agree with part of what you wrote.  Storm of Swords is in my opinion a good book.

In chapter 28 Cersei tells Sansa she is getting married to Tyrion.

A Storm of Swords - Sansa III      "Yes. You are a ward of the crown. The king stands in your father's place, since your brother is an attainted traitor. That means he has every right to dispose of your hand. You are to marry my brother Tyrion."

 

The above happened after Sansa had been set aside so that Joff could marry Marg and before both the Red Wedding and the Purlple Wedding. In my opinion Sansa’s marriage to Tyrion happens because she told Dontos who told LF that the Tyrell’s were planning to whisk Sansa off to Highgarden.

Robb dies in chapter 51

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn VII      A man in dark armor and a pale pink cloak spotted with blood stepped up to Robb. "Jaime Lannister sends his regards." He thrust his longsword through her son's heart, and twisted.

 

Joffrey gets married and dies in chapter 60. I can’t seem to find the quote that says the marriage takes place on the first day of the new century.

In chapter 72 Jaime mentions fArya                                               

A Storm of Swords - Jaime IX    She bit her lip. "You may not recall, my lord, as I was littler then . . . but I had the honor to meet you at Winterfell when King Robert came to visit my father Lord Eddard." She lowered her big brown eyes and mumbled, "I'm Arya Stark."    Jaime had never paid much attention to Arya Stark, but it seemed to him that this girl was older. "I understand you're to be married."    "I am to wed Lord Bolton's son, Ramsay. He used to be a Snow, but His Grace has made him a Bolton. They say he's very brave. I am so happy."

 

And Jaime tells Brienne in chapter 72

A Storm of Swords - Jaime IX     Brienne shook her head. "When Lord Bolton learns that your father paid him with false coin . . ."    "Oh, he knows. Lannisters lie, remember? It makes no matter, this girl serves his purpose just as well. Who is going to say that she isn't Arya Stark? Everyone the girl was close to is dead except for her sister, who has disappeared."

 

All of the above takes place in SoS before Tyrion kills Tywin in chapter 77. Tywin was very powerful in the Seven Kingdoms. A wheeler and dealer.

A Feast for Crows - Jaime III        Payne had been the captain of the Hand's guard when he had been heard boasting that it was Lord Tywin who ruled the Seven Kingdoms and told King Aerys what to do. Aerys Targaryen took his tongue for that.

 

Basically all I have been saying is that people want Winterfell. If the Tytells, the Lannisters, the Boltons want WF so badly it must be important to the story.

I pray to the old and the new gods that I got those chapter numbers right.

As for contenders to the title of Lord/Lady of WF, I’m knocking out Bolton & fArya and Sansa & Tyrion. That leaves me with Bran or Rickon.

 

[Clegane'sPup]

22 hours ago, falcotron said:

We know Wex doesn't read or write very well ("Until he learns more letters…"). And we know that they did in fact use pointing at places on a map as part of their communication—that's the whole point of the knife in the map scene.

Unless you are carrying around a mouse in your pocket there isn't a we. Would you help me out and give me some text supporting your statement. Thanks.

22 hours ago, falcotron said:

And if Davos doesn't find Rickon, I suspect it will be because Rickon's boat got diverted, or Davos gets diverted, or Rickon is lost or dead on Skagos, not because they misinterpreted Wex in their desperation to believe.

While speculation is fun and lets be honest here, speculation is all that there is past DwD since it ends with so many cliffhangers but let us call speculation what it is, okee dokee.

22 hours ago, falcotron said:

They learned from Wex that Rickon went to the Bay of Seals to cross to Skagos. We aren't told how Wex knew this, or the details of how he communicated it. Maybe he did actually follow them all that way and was apprehended later, maybe he just overheard them talking about their destination and was being apprehended somewhat earlier. But it doesn't really matter either way.

I make many mistakes which people correct and I can be rather dense so I am going to ask you is there any textual reference to Rickon being in/at/on Skaggos other than the infamous unicorn.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon I     Far off, he could hear his packmates calling to him, like to like. They were hunting too. A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat's long horn had raked him. In another place, his little sister lifted her head to sing to the moon, and a hundred small grey cousins broke off their hunt to sing with her. The hills were warmer where they were, and full of food. Many a night his sister's pack gorged on the flesh of sheep and cows and horses, the prey of men, and sometimes even on the flesh of man himself.

 

[kissdbyfire]

On 11/09/2017 at 7:00 PM, Horse of Kent said:

Robb's will probably provides that. It would be unsurprising if there is a clause in the will saying that Arya is heir ahead of Jon if she is found alive and free. It would forestall some of Catelyn's objections and explain why Lady Stoneheart is pouring so many resources into finding Arya.

Really the true heir is still Bran, as all this was done under false pretences.

And it would also explain Arya being conspicuously left out by Robb when he talks about the will.

“He picked up a sheet of parchment. “One more matter. Lord Balon has left chaos in his wake, we hope. I would not do the same. Yet I have no son as yet, my brothers Bran and Rickon are dead, and my sister is wed to a Lannister. I’ve thought long and hard about who might follow me. I command you now as my true and loyal lords to fix your seals to this document as witnesses to my decision.”

@Clegane'sPup, I think the infamous unicorn is actually the best clue, and it's there not only as a clue but also to back up what happens in WH w/ Wex. 

[Clegane'sPup]

20 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

@Clegane'sPup, I think the infamous unicorn is actually the best clue, and it's there not only as a clue but also to back up what happens in WH w/ Wex. 

There is in my opinion a problem with the Davos chapter. I’m assuming that in Martin’s moving around of chapters some information has been lost.

Davos goes to Manderly looking for support for Stannis. Cool, makes some sense.

Manderly puts on a show for the Frey’s. Cool, I can understand that after it is revealed.

Manderly keeps Davos well fed and looked after while Davos is in the dungeon. Cool, I can understand the charade. Manderly wants his son back and the Iron Throne wants proof that Davos is dead.

Now, either there is a mistake in that Davos chapter or Manderly is lying to Davos.

Please look at the below quotes and the bolded statements. There is a conflict. The lords have been summoned to Barrowton and yet Manderly says he is going to WF. To add insult to injury Roose & Ramsey insinuate that Manderly did indeed go to Barrowton.

A Dance with Dragons - Davos IV       "Glover. Your seat was Deepwood Motte."   "My brother Galbart's seat. It was and is, thanks to your King Stannis. He has taken Deepwood back from the iron bitch who stole it and offers to restore it to its rightful owners. Much and more has happened whilst you have been confined within these walls, Lord Davos. Moat Cailin has fallen, and Roose Bolton has returned to the north with Ned Stark's younger daughter. A host of Freys came with him. Bolton has sent forth ravens, summoning all the lords of the north to Barrowton. He demands homage and hostages … and witnesses to the wedding of Arya Stark and his bastard Ramsay Snow, by which match the Boltons mean to lay claim to Winterfell. Now, will you come with me, or no?"

A Dance with Dragons - Davos IV      "And now, my lord?" asked Davos.    He had hoped to hear Lord Wyman say, And now I shall declare for King Stannis, but instead the fat man smiled an odd, twinkling smile and said, "And now I have a wedding to attend. I am too fat to sit a horse, as any man with eyes can plainly see. As a boy I loved to ride, and as a young man I handled a mount well enough to win some small acclaim in the lists, but those days are done. My body has become a prison more dire than the Wolf's Den. Even so, I must go to Winterfell. Roose Bolton wants me on my knees, and beneath the velvet courtesy he shows the iron mail. I shall go by barge and litter, attended by a hundred knights and my good friends from the Twins. The Freys came here by sea. They have no horses with them, so I shall present each of them with a palfrey as a guest gift. Do hosts still give guest gifts in the south?"

A Dance with Dragons - Reek III    "Forty wayns full of foodstuffs. Casks of wine and hippocras, barrels of fresh-caught lampreys, a herd of goats, a hundred pigs, crates of crabs and oysters, a monstrous codfish … Lord Wyman likes to eat. You may have noticed."   "What I noticed was that he brought no hostages."     "I noticed that as well."

What I am going to ask is other that the infamous one horned goat quote is there any textual evidence that Rickon is on/at Skaggos? Is there any textual evidence that Wex followed Osha, Rickon and the wolf up the kingsroad to the shore of The Bay of Seals? Is there any textual evidence that Wex, Osha, Rickon and the wolf traveled from WF across Bolton, Karstark and Umber lands considering that Osha said:

A Clash of Kings - Bran VII    "We'll go with Bran," said Jojen Reed.    "Aye, I thought you might," said Osha. "Believe I'll try the East Gate, and follow the kingsroad a ways."

 

[falcotron]

21 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Unless you are carrying around a mouse in your pocket there isn't a we. Would you help me out and give me some text supporting your statement. Thanks.

You just quoted me quoting supporting text ("Until he learns more letters…") to ask me for supporting text. Here's another quote, also from ADwD Davos IV:

Quote

“He is a mute, but we have been teaching him his letters. He learns quickly.” Glover drew a dagger from his belt and gave it to the boy. “Write your name for Lord Seaworth.”

“There was no parchment in the chamber. The boy carved the letters into a wooden beam in the wall. W … E … X. He leaned hard into the X. When he was done he flipped the dagger in the air, caught it, and stood admiring his handiwork.”

But really, I'm not even sure what you're disputing. Do you think Wex can read and write fluently, or that he can't do it at all? Or that this has been an insurmountable problem, or no problem at all, rather than a difficulty in communicating with him? Or that he's not the kind of person who could throw a dagger accurately enough to hit his intended target on a map? Or…?

21 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

While speculation is fun and lets be honest here, speculation is all that there is past DwD since it ends with so many cliffhangers but let us call speculation what it is, okee dokee.

You were saying we should expect that Davos isn't going to find Rickon because someone made up the information that supposedly came from Wex. But the information did come from Wex, and there's no reason to doubt it. I was just showing that, even if if you think for some meta-textual reason that he isn't going to find Rickon, there are more likely possibilities than the one you were suggesting.

21 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I make many mistakes which people correct and I can be rather dense so I am going to ask you is there any textual reference to Rickon being in/at/on Skaggos other than the infamous unicorn.

Besides the unicorn, there's the scene we've been discussing the whole time, in ADwD Davos IV again:

Quote

“Six of them,” asked Davos. “There were six.”

“Two of them Ned Stark’s murdered sons.”

“How could a mute tell you that?”

“With chalk. He drew two boys … and two wolves.”

“… The six did not linger long amongst the ruins of Winterfell. Four went one way, two another. Wex stole after the two, a woman and a boy. He must have stayed downwind, so the wolf would not catch his scent.”

“He knows where they went,” Lord Wyman said.

Davos understood. “You want the boy.”

…

“Where is the boy?” Somehow Davos knew he would not like the answer. “Where is it you want me to go, my lord?”

“Robett Glover said, “Wex. Show him.”

The mute flipped the dagger, caught it, then flung it end over end at the sheepskin map that adorned Lord Wyman’s wall. It struck quivering. Then he grinned.

For half a heartbeat Davos considered asking Wyman Manderly to send him back to the Wolf’s Den, to Ser Bartimus with his tales and Garth with his lethal ladies. In the Den even prisoners ate porridge in the morning. But there were other places in this world where men were known to break their fast on human flesh. 

You seem to be unconvinced that Manderly and Glover could have gotten this information out of Wex, but we just saw Davos get this information out of Wex. He clearly hit the map where he intended to, and Davos believes he was just told that Rickon is in some place in the North with a reputation for regular cannibalism.

[falcotron]

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Please look at the below quotes and the bolded statements. There is a conflict. The lords have been summoned to Barrowton and yet Manderly says he is going to WF. To add insult to injury Roose & Ramsey insinuate that Manderly did indeed go to Barrowton.

This does seem to be a mistake, one that many people have commented on and theorized about that I don't think we need to get into here. But what does it have to do with Wex's story?

Are you suggesting that Manderly is not only tricking the Freys and Boltons, but also Davos, and he coached Wex to give false information to mislead Davos into going to Skagos even though he knows Rickon is actually somewhere else? Why promise to support Stannis if Davos returns Rickon, and then send Davos somewhere he knows Rickon isn't?

Or are you suggesting that he's tricking Glover, and once he's alone with Davos he's going to give him a different destination, or tell him that they've already got Rickon and his real mission is to negotiate with the Magnar of Skagos, or…?

[LynnS]

15 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Or are you suggesting that he's tricking Glover, and once he's alone with Davos he's going to give him a different destination, or tell him that they've already got Rickon and his real mission is to negotiate with the Magnar of Skagos, or…?

Not disputing the text or the argument you make.  Just curious, where does Wex get his knowledge of maps?

[falcotron]

16 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Not disputing the text or the argument you make.  Just curious, where does Wex get his knowledge of maps?

Who knows? Where does Davos get his knowledge of maps, or Manderly? It's not some big mystery.

Wex grew up on the Iron Islands, as the bastard son of a Lord looking for someone to squire him to. Teaching him maps would be helpful for that. Or, as Theon notes that he's a fast learner, maybe he taught himself at Lordsport. Or maybe he learned as Theon's squire, constantly by his side, during the campaign for the North. We have no idea which one, but they're all plausible.

Davos worked his way up the ranks on board the Cobblecat. He could well have been a navigator's assistant along the way. Or a helmsman, or some other position that needs basic map-reading skills. Or maybe it was only later, when he was working toward getting his own ship, that he learned. We have no idea which one, but they're all plausible.

[LynnS]

41 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Who knows? Where does Davos get his knowledge of maps, or Manderly? It's not some big mystery.

Wex grew up on the Iron Islands, as the bastard son of a Lord looking for someone to squire him to. Teaching him maps would be helpful for that. Or, as Theon notes that he's a fast learner, maybe he taught himself at Lordsport. Or maybe he learned as Theon's squire, constantly by his side, during the campaign for the North. We have no idea which one, but they're all plausible.

Davos worked his way up the ranks on board the Cobblecat. He could well have been a navigator's assistant along the way. Or a helmsman, or some other position that needs basic map-reading skills. Or maybe it was only later, when he was working toward getting his own ship, that he learned. We have no idea which one, but they're all plausible.

Ok, well I wasn't trying to be cheeky.  I just thought it was a bit incongruent along with his amazing knife throwing skills; I wondered for a brief moment if he was a faceless boy,  er... man.