Lord of WF

[falcotron]

36 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Ok, well I wasn't trying to be cheeky.  I just thought it was a bit incongruent along with his amazing knife throwing skills; I wondered for a brief moment if he was a faceless boy,  er... man.  

This is what I don't get. What seems incongruent about an Ironborn squire knowing basic map reading?

[LynnS]

16 minutes ago, falcotron said:

This is what I don't get. What seems incongruent about an Ironborn squire knowing basic map reading?

As you explain it, nothing.   I was just looking at Wex passages again and he seems resourceful and clever enough. 

[White Ravens]

On 9/14/2017 at 3:08 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

I make many mistakes which people correct and I can be rather dense so I am going to ask you is there any textual reference to Rickon being in/at/on Skaggos other than the infamous unicorn.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon I     Far off, he could hear his packmates calling to him, like to like. They were hunting too. A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat's long horn had raked him. In another place, his little sister lifted her head to sing to the moon, and a hundred small grey cousins broke off their hunt to sing with her. The hills were warmer where they were, and full of food. Many a night his sister's pack gorged on the flesh of sheep and cows and horses, the prey of men, and sometimes even on the flesh of man himself.

 

I maintain that the infamous unicorn passage which you quoted above is just an enormous goat reference.  Take a look at this quote from a news story about a bullfighter who was injured in the ring...

" A bullfighter has been left with sickening internal injuries after becoming impaled on a beast's horn and tossed around the ring."

Only one horn is mentioned.  The bull has two horns but he injured the bullfighter with one horn so the news story doesn't mention the horn that didn't injure the bullfighter. 

 

[falcotron]

1 hour ago, White Ravens said:

I maintain that the infamous unicorn passage which you quoted above is just an enormous goat reference.  Take a look at this quote from a news story about a bullfighter who was injured in the ring...

" A bullfighter has been left with sickening internal injuries after becoming impaled on a beast's horn and tossed around the ring."

Only one horn is mentioned.  The bull has two horns but he injured the bullfighter with one horn so the news story doesn't mention the horn that didn't injure the bullfighter. 

The difference is that GRRM has gone out of his way to establish that Skagos is famous for goat-like unicorns, and to very strongly imply that Davos is being sent to Skagos to pick up Rickon and his wolf, so it makes sense that Rickon's wolf would see a unicorn.

If there were a real-life Spanish island with unicorn-like bulls, and the story were about a bullfight on that island, but this particular bullfight involved a normal two-horned bull, the editor would have told the journalist to make that clear, because his story is misleading otherwise.

Of course it's possible that all the stories about unicorns on Skagos are just myths, and they really just have enormous goats there. But in that case, the wolf dream would still be pointing us to Skagos, because we still don't know of anywhere else in the North with enormous goats.  So, what's the point of assuming that?

[White Ravens]

55 minutes ago, falcotron said:

The difference is that GRRM has gone out of his way to establish that Skagos is famous for goat-like unicorns, and to very strongly imply that Davos is being sent to Skagos to pick up Rickon and his wolf, so it makes sense that Rickon's wolf would see a unicorn.

If there were a real-life Spanish island with unicorn-like bulls, and the story were about a bullfight on that island, but this particular bullfight involved a normal two-horned bull, the editor would have told the journalist to make that clear, because his story is misleading otherwise.

Of course it's possible that all the stories about unicorns on Skagos are just myths, and they really just have enormous goats there. But in that case, the wolf dream would still be pointing us to Skagos, because we still don't know of anywhere else in the North with enormous goats.  So, what's the point of assuming that?

Please post a link to these references to goat-like unicorns.  Most instances of unicorns mentioned in the books have to do with heraldry.  Some references have to do with unicorn horns or skulls.  Skagosi unicorns are described in the books as shaggy.  The closest thing to a goat-like reference appears in the World of Ice and Fire.

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - The North: The Stoneborn of Skagos

The "unicorns" of Skagos were once scoffed at by maesters at the Citadel. The occasional "unicorn horn" offered by disreputable merchants has never been more than the horn of a kind of whale hunted by the whalers of Ib. However, horns of quite a different kind—reputed to be from Skagos—have been seen by the maesters at Eastwatch upon occasion. It is also said that those seafarers brave enough to trade on Skagos have glimpsed the stoneborn lords riding great, shaggy, horned beasts, monstrous mounts so sure-footed they have been known to climb the sides of mountains. A living example of such a creature—or even a skeleton—has long been sought for study, but none has ever been brought to Oldtown.

In the novels, there is not one reference to unicorns being goats.  As near as I can tell fans decided that Skagosi unicorns are enormous goats based on the quote mentioned up thread...

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon I     

Far off, he could hear his packmates calling to him, like to like. They were hunting too. A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat's long horn had raked him. In another place, his little sister lifted her head to sing to the moon, and a hundred small grey cousins broke off their hunt to sing with her. The hills were warmer where they were, and full of food. Many a night his sister's pack gorged on the flesh of sheep and cows and horses, the prey of men, and sometimes even on the flesh of man himself.

This does not state that the goat has one horn.  It states that the goat raked Shaggy with its horn and it is used in the singular because it didn't injure him with both of its horns.  I think that my comparison to how injuries are inflicted by bulls on matadors is quite relevant to this conversation because bulls, like goats, have two horns but the word "horn" is used in the singular when only one is used to inflict injury. 

[Tucu]

13 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

Please post a link to these references to goat-like unicorns.  Most instances of unicorns mentioned in the books have to do with heraldry.  Some references have to do with unicorn horns or skulls.  Skagosi unicorns are described in the books as shaggy.  The closest thing to a goat-like reference appears in the World of Ice and Fire.

In the novels, there is not one reference to unicorns being goats.  As near as I can tell fans decided that Skagosi unicorns are enormous goats based on the quote mentioned up thread...

This does not state that the goat has one horn.  It states that the goat raked Shaggy with its horn and it is used in the singular because it didn't injure him with both of its horns.  I think that my comparison to how injuries are inflicted by bulls on matadors is quite relevant to this conversation because bulls, like goats, have two horns but the word "horn" is used in the singular when only one is used to inflict injury. 

The description of unicorns given in the books match our mythological goat-like unicorns myth better than the horse-like unicorns.

The evidence is not conclusive, but if you add everthing up (including Davos thoughts about Skagos, unicorns and cannibals) we can make a good guess that Shaggydog killed a unicorn in Skagos.

[White Ravens]

19 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The description of unicorns given in the books match our mythological goat-like unicorns myth better than the horse-like unicorns.

The evidence is not conclusive, but if you add everthing up (including Davos thoughts about Skagos, unicorns and cannibals) we can make a good guess that Shaggydog killed a unicorn in Skagos.

In what way do they match mythological unicorns.  Is it the shaginess?  I'd really like to see a goat-like unicorn description from the books. 

[Tucu]

10 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

In what way do they match mythological unicorns.  Is it the shaginess?  I'd really like to see a goat-like unicorn description from the books. 

This part really ressembles a goat, not a horse: monstrous mounts so sure-footed they have been known to climb the sides of mountains

Check this picture of an Alpine Ibex: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/content/dam/news/photos/000/281/28151.adapt.676.1.jpg

Mix that with the "goat" killed by Shaggydog and the goat-like unicorns in European mythology.

 

[White Ravens]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

This part really ressembles a goat, not a horse: monstrous mounts so sure-footed they have been known to climb the sides of mountains

Check this picture of an Alpine Ibex: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/content/dam/news/photos/000/281/28151.adapt.676.1.jpg

Mix that with the "goat" killed by Shaggydog and the goat-like unicorns in European mythology.

 

As I mentioned earlier, that part is the only unicorn description that is goatish. But as I also mentioned, the fans on this forum decided that unicorns on Skagos are goats before the World book was published. 

At any rate I don't think there is a conclusive description so I'm hoping we learn more about them when Winds is published. 

 

[Clegane'sPup]

On 9/15/2017 at 4:17 PM, falcotron said:

But really, I'm not even sure what you're disputing. Do you think Wex can read and write fluently, or that he can't do it at all? Or that this has been an insurmountable problem, or no problem at all, rather than a difficulty in communicating with him? Or that he's not the kind of person who could throw a dagger accurately enough to hit his intended target on a map? Or…?

I’m not sure what you are disputing. No, I do not think Wex can read or write fluently since the reference was made that he is being taught his letters.. I answer questions posed to me sometimes in a serious manor and sometimes in a jovial manner and sometimes I ignore the post entirely depending upon what I think. I try to type/write in terms of me & I.

Throwing a dagger at a map has nada to do with his intelligence. He has ears to hear and eyes to see. Wex according to Martin is mute***. There is nothing in the novels that insinuates Wex knows how to read or write.

How did Wex who supposedly followed and overheard conversations betwixt Osha & four year old Rickon come to be in Manderly’s control yet Osha, Rickon and the wolf evade capture? What could Wex possibly do when he is captured or turns himself in that makes his captors think that he is useful?

Factious now ----- Lord Manderly we found this dirty, scruffy mute boy in the woods and we thought instead of killing him we would bring him here to you. Your Lordship he can’t speak but we thought he might have information you would want.

You specifically said Wex followed them to the Bay of Seals.Since there are five books and approximately 5000 pages of story and I don't have an eidetic memory could you please show me the way.

Quote

He obviously threw his knife as an actual answer, not a random guess. Since he followed them to the shore of the Bay of Seals, he knows where they're going.

Someone else brought up the interesting thought and I am paraphrasing here ---- when did 12 year old Wex learn to read maps? Theon didn’t seek Wex out. The father of the boy included Wex in the bargaining price of a horse. I dunna know if Wex's daddy had his bastard taught to read letters or maps.

 

[Clegane'sPup]

23 hours ago, falcotron said:

You were saying we should expect that Davos isn't going to find Rickon because someone made up the information that supposedly came from Wex. But the information did come from Wex, and there's no reason to doubt it. I was just showing that, even if if you think for some meta-textual reason that he isn't going to find Rickon, there are more likely possibilities than the one you were suggesting.

There you go again with the "we." I did not say what you said I said.

With all the tinfoil and cracked pots floating around why is it difficult to imagine that Manderly is playing Davos like Manderly did the Lannister's and the Frey's?

The thread in my opinion has brought forth some rather interesting ideas and thoughts.

I haven't figured out how to toggle back and forth between the pages to capture poster quotes.

[falcotron]

10 hours ago, White Ravens said:

As I mentioned earlier, that part is the only unicorn description that is goatish. But as I also mentioned, the fans on this forum decided that unicorns on Skagos are goats before the World book was published. 

At any rate I don't think there is a conclusive description so I'm hoping we learn more about them when Winds is published. 

OK, so, many fans guessed that the unicorns are goatish. You disagreed. Then GRRM wrote and published WoIaF, which seemed to confirm that the other fans are right—and this makes you think that the opposite is true?

[falcotron]

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I’m not sure what you are disputing. No, I do not think Wex can read or write fluently since the reference was made that he is being taught his letters… There is nothing in the novels that insinuates Wex knows how to read or write.

I don't even know how to respond to this. I gave you a quote that makes it explicit that Wex knows a little reading and writing but not very much, which included him writing his name, and you continue to insist that he can't read and write at all.

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Throwing a dagger at a map has nada to do with his intelligence.

Which is why I didn't use his throwing a dagger as evidence of intelligence, I used Theon calling him a quick learner as evidence of intelligence.

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Someone else brought up the interesting thought and I am paraphrasing here ---- when did 12 year old Wex learn to read maps? Theon didn’t seek Wex out. The father of the boy included Wex in the bargaining price of a horse. I dunna know if Wex's daddy had his bastard taught to read letters or maps.

Someone else brought this up, and was satisfied with the answer.

Wex is a bastard of a lord who runs a port town in the Iron Islands. There is no mystery about him being able to read maps. You can say "I dunna know if Wex's daddy had his bastard taught to read letters or maps", but it's perfectly plausible that he did teach his bastard to read maps, and we see that he can read maps, so there's no reason to be incredulous that he can read maps. The books don't tell us where Davos, a poor commoner from Flea Bottom, learned to read maps, but that doesn't mean Davos never learned to read maps, The books also had the Titan's Daughter sail into Saltpans without telling us whether they have a shallow-water pilot, Sandor getting the nickname "The Hound" without us being told at what age he got that nickname, and all kinds of other things that happen off-page and aren't fully explained, and yet, they aren't mysteries. That's how stories work.

Your next post is illuminating in that regard:

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

With all the tinfoil and cracked pots floating around why is it difficult to imagine…

The fact that lots of people have unsupportable tinfoil theories does not mean we should be looking for even more unsupportable tinfoil theories even where we can't find any.

Most tinfoil theories are wrong. Tinfoil theories with even less motivation than the existing ones are even more likely to be wrong.

Sometimes—in fact, most of the time—what it says in the books is actually correct.

[Clegane'sPup]

15 hours ago, falcotron said:

Sometimes—in fact, most of the time—what it says in the books is actually correct.

On this we do agree.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

On this we do agree.

Wex just seems a bit off to me because although he overhears where Bran and Rickard are heading; he chooses to follow Rickon when Bran is the more important of the two.  Surely, he knows that.  So no tinfoil here, just some questions.  Wex is a surprise.  When reading the passage with Bran and Luwin after they emerge from the crypts, the reader has no idea that Wex is hiding in the tree.  So I was curious about what he actually overheard.  I'm not as trusting of Wex's story perhaps because his accuracy with a knife is so deadly.  Our attention is drawn to that fact when he throws it at the map.  That's why I'm curious about it.  I get the sense that he is a dangerous friend more than he is Theon's hapless squire.

[Clegane'sPup]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

Wex just seems a bit off to me because although he overhears where Bran and Rickard are heading; he chooses to follow Rickon when Bran is the more important of the two.  Surely, he knows that.  So no tinfoil here, just some questions.  Wex is a surprise

For me, the Wex & Manderly story is way off.

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

When reading the passage with Bran and Luwin after they emerge from the crypts, the reader has no idea that Wex is hiding in the tree.

I agree that I had no idea Wex was up a tree. The only thing I can come up with is

A Clash of Kings - Bran VII    "Then where?" asked Osha.    "White Harbor . . . the Umbers . . . I do not know . . . war everywhere . . . each man against his neighbor, and winter coming . . . such folly, such black mad folly . . ."

After Luwin sends the children away his conversation with Osha is not revealed. But Osha does later say to the children that

A Clash of Kings - Bran VII   "We'll go with Bran," said Jojen Reed.    "Aye, I thought you might," said Osha. "Believe I'll try the East Gate, and follow the kingsroad a ways."

 

Then for some reason, surprise, Manderly with no explanation has Wex in book five. 

 

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm not as trusting of Wex's story perhaps because his accuracy with a knife is so deadly.  Our attention is drawn to that fact when he throws it at the map.  That's why I'm curious about it.  I get the sense that he is a dangerous friend more than he is Theon's hapless squire.

This reader did not know until Martin told ---- that the word Brienne, as she was being hung said was "Sword". All I am trying to get across is that I do not know which place Wex’s knife marked on the map.

Apparently Wex somehow managed to overhear and/or follow Rickon, Osha & the wolf then get captured and was able to convince his captors he had valuable information and needed to be taken to Manderly.

Full disclosure, for fun and for free. I speculate that Manderly has Rickon, Osha and the wolf stashed and is sending Davos on a wild goose chase. The fat man is tricksy as proved by his interactions with the Lannister's and Frey's.

 

[Tucu]

8 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Full disclosure, for fun and for free. I speculate that Manderly has Rickon, Osha and the wolf stashed and is sending Davos on a wild goose chase. The fat man is tricksy as proved by his interactions with the Lannister's and Frey's.

Why would Manderly fake Davos' execution to then send him in a wild goose chase? He could have saved a step by really executing Davos.

[Clegane'sPup]

8 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Why would Manderly fake Davos' execution to then send him in a wild goose chase? He could have saved a step by really executing Davos.

The fat man is tricksy as proved by his interactions with the Lannister's and the Frey's. King Stannis sent his Hand to treat with him. Send Davos on a wild goose chase and he doesn't have to commit. Story wise as it stands at the end of DwD it is possible that after reading Stannis' letter about King Robert's children being born of adultery and incest that Manderly is hedging his bets.

[LynnS]

26 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

For me, the Wex & Manderly story is way off.

I agree that I had no idea Wex was up a tree. The only thing I can come up with is

A Clash of Kings - Bran VII    "Then where?" asked Osha.    "White Harbor . . . the Umbers . . . I do not know . . . war everywhere . . . each man against his neighbor, and winter coming . . . such folly, such black mad folly . . ."

After Luwin sends the children away his conversation with Osha is not revealed. But Osha does later say to the children that

A Clash of Kings - Bran VII   "We'll go with Bran," said Jojen Reed.    "Aye, I thought you might," said Osha. "Believe I'll try the East Gate, and follow the kingsroad a ways."

 

Then for some reason, surprise, Manderly with no explanation has Wex in book five. 

 

This reader did not know until Martin told ---- that the word Brienne, as she was being hung said was "Sword". All I am trying to get across is that I do not know which place Wex’s knife marked on the map.

Apparently Wex somehow managed to overhear and/or follow Rickon, Osha & the wolf then get captured and was able to convince his captors he had valuable information and needed to be taken to Manderly.

Full disclosure, for fun and for free. I speculate that Manderly has Rickon, Osha and the wolf stashed and is sending Davos on a wild goose chase. The fat man is tricksy as proved by his interactions with the Lannister's and Frey's.

 

I suppose I wouldn't be surprised if Wex's tale turns out to be the shaggy dog part of a shaggy dog story.  I think there is some unreliable narration especially when Manderly assumes that Wex must have followed downwind so as not to be discovered by the direwolf.  Isn't it a long way to go to avoid detection for either party? There are no witnesses to the direwolf even they cross over to Skagos?  I could see Wex following Osha and Rickon because they are more vulnerable.   I can also seeing him joining in with them on their trek and making use of his knife.  

[UnFit Finlay]

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Full disclosure, for fun and for free. I speculate that Manderly has Rickon, Osha and the wolf stashed and is sending Davos on a wild goose chase. The fat man is tricksy as proved by his interactions with the Lannister's and Frey's.

They've wronged him though, and were responsible for the murder of his son and his King.

Stannis is actively fighting them, and to free the North from the Ironborn and the Boltons. He returned Deepwood Motte to the Glovers even though he had no real reason to. "Tricking" him serves no purpose and actually risks turning a much needed ally into an enemy. For example, if Davos should happen to die on this mission then it would essentially be the same as executing him. That seems a big risk when, for your theory to work, he merely could've kept Davos safely hidden in the dungeons.