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Lord of WF


Clegane'sPup

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The below statements are basically the bare bones of the story.

I remember some line in the books saying the sons come before the daughters. After Robb was named King of the North Bran got the moniker of Prince. Bran & Rickon are believed by most people to be dead.

King Robb married Jeyne W. making her Queen Jeyne. She is supposedly being held by Lannisters and is supposed to be kept chaste for a year or two so that that there can be no confusion about whether or not she births King Robb’s child.

Sansa has been married off to a Lannister. Tywin wants Tyrion to get a baby in her. Which he does not do.

Roose was given an Arya impersonator by the Lannisters to wed Ramsey. Roose, Warden of the North, wants Ramsey to get a baby in her.

King Stannis offered to make LC Jon Snow lord of Winterfell. Jon declined.

Sansa approximately 13 is living as a fugitive in the Vale under the guise of being LF’s daughter.

Arya approximately 11 years of age is living in Braavos at the HoBaW.

Bran is approximately 10 and Rickon is approximately six. They are not considered men grown until 16 years of age. I assume that means they would need an adult of some kind to run WF until they reach the man grown stage.

Manderly was supposedly given intel by Wex that Bran & Rickon are alive. Manderly sends Davos on a mission to get Rickon & his wolf. Manderly refers to Rickon as his liege.

Bran & his companions had contact with a Liddle as they were traveling to the Wall. Also, Sam knows Bran is alive.

Ramsey is the Lord of WF through the marriage to fArya who is MIA.

Who do you think is the rightful Lord of WF and why? When winter is over and spring arrives who will be Lord of WF and why?

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1 hour ago, TMIFairy said:

At present, as all her "siblings" are dead or in the Nights Watch, this makes "fArya" the rightful Lady of WF.

True, fArya is the rightful Lady of WF to the knowledge of most characters; however we the readers know Bran is alive and he is the rightful Lord of Winterfell. So there are basically two answers: who is really the rightful Lord of WF, and who do people believe it is. As to what happens after winter, that totally depends on who survives.

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There's one more important factor forgotten about in the OP. Robb's Will.

If/when Robb's Will comes into play, Jon was legitimized and explicitly named as Robb's Heir, in the absence of a heir of body(child), and Sansa was explicitly disinherited. Bran, Rickon, and Arya would not have been mentioned as they were all presumed dead, but Jon being explicitly named as Robb's Heir would override the normal order of succession should one or all of them reappear with the Will in play.

 

Also, there's still technically the remote possibility that Robb got Jeyne pregnant. It's improbable, but a child of Robb by Jeyne would top the list of rightful successors to Robb as the Stark of Winterfell.

 

Following all of them, there are the "cousins in the Vale".

 

At any rate, it seems apparent that at least some of the Northern Lords who went to Winterfell for the wedding had/have doubts about fArya's identity. Even before they hate Ramsay and the Boltons.

 

As for who winds up in charge of Winterfell in the end? It's way too early to tell, although I'll make this prediction now - it won't be the Boltons, fArya, and/or Ramsay. It'll be a Stark in the end, and not one of the Vale cousins.

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3 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Who do you think is the rightful Lord of WF and why? When winter is over and spring arrives who will be Lord of WF and why?

If Ned's line hadn't been interrupted, the normal succession tradition would go: Robb, Bran, Rickon. After that, there are conflicting traditions about whether the line goes to daughters or uncles, but fortunately, there don't seem to be any uncles or cousins without going (at least) either three degrees away or two degrees and into a different family in the Vale, so Sansa and Arya are pretty clearly next. Beyond that, they'd have to scramble to find one of those distant cousins, or ask the King to appoint someone new.

But Ned's line was interrupted. Roose Bolton is Warden of the North, and he's named Ramsay Bolton the Lord of Winterfell, and there's no reason to think King Tommen has any problem with that. So Ramsay is the rightful Lord.

Ramsay's marriage to (as far as anyone knows) a daughter of the previous ruling family makes it less likely that people will challenge him on that, but nothing can ever make it impossible. And if the Boltons are overthrown—or if the Baratheons in King's Landing are—it's a pretty good bet that whoever does the overthrowing will name one of the Starks as Warden of the North and Lord of Winterfell. (And if they can't find a Stark, they'll probably find a cousin and change their name to Stark.) And that Stark will then be rightful Lord of Winterfell.

If someone wants to start a war with a specific Stark as a pretender for Lord of Winterfell, pretty much any Stark will do. It's just a matter of having a good enough claim to get people to fight, and any Stark supporters who'd be willing to fight for Bran would be willing to fight for Rickon.

Meanwhile, Robb was elected King in the North. And he wrote a will legitimizing Jon and making Jon his heir as King. Presumably his brothers and sisters and cousins all come after Jon. But if the North ends up as an independent kingdom, then either there is no Lord of Winterfell, or it's a new position subordinate to the King in the North, so… whichever Stark ends up on that throne can appoint one of their siblings or cousins to the job if they want, I guess, and that person would be the rightful Lord.

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26 minutes ago, falcotron said:

But Ned's line was interrupted.

Eddard's line was not interrupted. Bran & Rickon are still alive or so some people believe.

29 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Meanwhile, Robb was elected King in the North. And he wrote a will legitimizing Jon and making Jon his heir as King.

Robb was hailed as King of the North. King Robb married. Jeyne became his Queen. She is Lady of WF.

Bran somehow became a Prince.

Truth be told I dunna know if King Robb legitimized Jon or not.

That riddle Varys gives Tyrion about where power resides ---- Manderly seems to believe Rickon is his liege. Yet he is aware that Bran may be alive.

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40 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Eddard's line was not interrupted. Bran & Rickon are still alive or so some people believe.

Robb was hailed as King of the North. King Robb married. Jeyne became his Queen. She is Lady of WF.

Bran somehow became a Prince.

Truth be told I dunna know if King Robb legitimized Jon or not.

That riddle Varys gives Tyrion about where power resides ---- Manderly seems to believe Rickon is his liege. Yet he is aware that Bran may be alive.

He does not know where Bran is, but he knows where Rickon went. If he knew the location of both, he would obviously try to retrieve Bran first. Unless the fact that Bran is a cripple makes Bran less valuable in terms of re-establishing and continuing the Stark line.

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Manderly knows that both Bran & Rickon are alive according to Wex.

A Dance with Dragons - Davos IV    "With chalk. He drew two boys … and two wolves."    "The lad is ironborn, so he thought it best not to show himself," said Glover. "He listened. The six did not linger long amongst the ruins of Winterfell. Four went one way, two another. Wex stole after the two, a woman and a boy. He must have stayed downwind, so the wolf would not catch his scent."    "He knows where they went," Lord Wyman said.

All of this extra material is neither for. My question was who do you think the rightful lord of WF is and why.

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2 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Manderly knows that both Bran & Rickon are alive according to Wex.

A Dance with Dragons - Davos IV    "With chalk. He drew two boys … and two wolves."    "The lad is ironborn, so he thought it best not to show himself," said Glover. "He listened. The six did not linger long amongst the ruins of Winterfell. Four went one way, two another. Wex stole after the two, a woman and a boy. He must have stayed downwind, so the wolf would not catch his scent."    "He knows where they went," Lord Wyman said.

All of this extra material is neither for. My question was who do you think the rightful lord of WF is and why.

Bran.

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4 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Eddard's line was not interrupted. Bran & Rickon are still alive or so some people believe.

Robb was hailed as King of the North. King Robb married. Jeyne became his Queen. She is Lady of WF.

Bran somehow became a Prince.

Truth be told I dunna know if King Robb legitimized Jon or not.

That riddle Varys gives Tyrion about where power resides ---- Manderly seems to believe Rickon is his liege. Yet he is aware that Bran may be alive.

When Robb was "King in the North," it was decided by whomever to instantly confer royal status on his siblings (Sansa and Arya are listed as princesses in the appendices - which is Elmar Frey was bummed that his marriage to a princess [Arya] was quashed) - normally royal status flows from being the progeny of a previous monarch (usually even more restricted through the male line). As Robb's siblings, even under "normal" monarchical pretensions, they would not be due 'princely' titles. Textual Examples: When Robert Baratheon was acclaimed as king, Stannis and Renly didn't assume the title of 'prince.'  Ergo, it was decided by Stark/Tully Inc. to pronounce the Stark siblings as princes and princesses in an apparent break from recent precedent.

Bran is a bit of a special case, though - as Robb's direct heir, they decided to create him "Prince of Winterfell" a courtesy title to the Kingship of the North (I wonder if that was historical or modelled on the Targaryen style of "Prince of Dragonstone.").  Presumably, had the Kingdom of the North been allowed to exist and Robb and Jeyne actually had children, Bran's status of "Prince of Winterfell" would have been transferred to Robb's eldest son. Or perhaps, modeled on the "Princedom of Wales" it is formally invested upon an heir, and the occupant of the position holds it for life, regardless of actual place in the succession, i.e. no longer the heir. 

 

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5 hours ago, falcotron said:

Meanwhile, Robb was elected King in the North. And he wrote a will legitimizing Jon and making Jon his heir as King. Presumably his brothers and sisters and cousins all come after Jon. But if the North ends up as an independent kingdom, then either there is no Lord of Winterfell, or it's a new position subordinate to the King in the North, so… whichever Stark ends up on that throne can appoint one of their siblings or cousins to the job if they want, I guess, and that person would be the rightful Lord.

This is an excellent point.  I suspect that perhaps that the King in the North would have kept "Lord of Winterfell" as one of his supplemental titles, or as we saw (briefly) with Bran, they would bestow the title "Prince(ess) of Winterfell" upon the heir(ess), which could be largely be ceremonial as the governorship of the Northern Kingdom (which includes the Riverlands)  would be largely indistinct from the lordship of the North. 

Although, they did create a title for Ser Brynden, and made him "Warden of the Southern Marches," which is pretty much the Riverlands and would seem to overlap with the lordship of Riverrun. Perhaps the "old" role of Lord of Winterfell  would be distinct from the King in the North, but would still include the position and responsibilities and title of "Warden of the North." 

 

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2 minutes ago, Daena the Defiant said:

Ergo, it was decided by Stark/Tully Inc. to pronounce the Stark siblings as princes and princesses in an apparent break from recent precedent.

It's possible that this is a callback to a Northern tradition for Kings of Winter.

Or it could even be something they did deliberately to distinguish themselves from Targaryen traditions. For a possible real-life parallel, the Covenanters in Scotland in 1649 declared that Charles I's daughters were no longer princesses, but they would be invested anew as princesses as Charles II's sisters as soon as they accepted Presbyterianism. There's no ancient Scottish tradition that makes the king's sisters princesses, they just wanted to establish that they, not England (who were busy declaring a republic at the time), made the rules for Great Britain now.

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9 minutes ago, Daena the Defiant said:

I suspect that perhaps that the King in the North would have kept "Lord of Winterfell" as one of his supplemental titles, or as we saw (briefly) with Bran, they would bestow the title "Prince(ess) of Winterfell" upon the heir(ess), which could be largely be ceremonial as the governorship of the Northern Kingdom (which includes the Riverlands)  would be largely indistinct from the lordship of the North. 

That would be a little weird, but not out of the question.

In our world, a big part of the reason the heir gets titles like Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester rather than Prince of Wessex and Earl of Westminster is so that if he rebels, he can't raise the capital against you. Since that had happened three times in under two centuries since William I, and Edward I had considered making it four himself, he obviously had reason to worry about that.

And, while I wouldn't expect Robb to worry about Bran rebelling against him, the idea of his great-grandson rebelling against his grandson (in a kingdom formed out of his own rebellion) might not be as easy to dismiss.

But then Robb was somewhat naive, his people were all riled up with the glory of Northern unity, etc., so it might not be too surprising if nobody really thought things through and they decided Prince of Winterfell was a good ceremonial title for the heir presumptive. Plus, of course, maybe that kind of thing really didn't happen nearly as often in Westeros as in our world, so they'd be right not to worry.

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23 minutes ago, Daena the Defiant said:

Ergo, it was decided by Stark/Tully Inc. to pronounce the Stark siblings as princes and princesses in an apparent break from recent precedent.

 

7 minutes ago, falcotron said:

It's possible that this is a callback to a Northern tradition for Kings of Winter.

My understanding is that the Starks "reclaimed", if you like, their position of old as royalty; had they been royalty this whole time, any trueborn Stark would have been a Prince or Princess. Therefore, they all were given royal titles. Robert, however, was not reclaiming anything, but instead made a new dynasty, starting with Robert himself. Therefore, the only royalty from this new dynasty issue from Robert, so no royal titles for Stannis and Renly, nor for their children. Shireen is only a princess because Stannis has crowned himself King, not due to Robert.

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2 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

My understanding is that the Starks "reclaimed", if you like, their position of old as royalty; had they been royalty this whole time, any trueborn Stark would have been a Prince or Princess.

Well, unless they do have different traditions than the Targaryens, that would imply that everyone from Cregan to Ned is now a sort of "king in exile" rather than just a lord. But of course that's possible. If Robb had won, who knows what his side would have written in the history books?

They could write that the Starks have an unbroken line of royalty even though they didn't claim it for a few centuries, or they could write that Robb's election created a new crown; it all depends on whether they want to glorify the name Stark or the name Robb more.

In fact, knowing Robb, the former is probably what he'd encourage, so you're probably right.

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On 9/6/2017 at 9:30 PM, Daena the Defiant said:

When Robb was "King in the North," it was decided by whomever to instantly confer royal status on his siblings (Sansa and Arya are listed as princesses in the appendices - which is Elmar Frey was bummed that his marriage to a princess [Arya] was quashed) - normally royal status flows from being the progeny of a previous monarch (usually even more restricted through the male line). As Robb's siblings, even under "normal" monarchical pretensions, they would not be due 'princely' titles. Textual Examples: When Robert Baratheon was acclaimed as king, Stannis and Renly didn't assume the title of 'prince.'  Ergo, it was decided by Stark/Tully Inc. to pronounce the Stark siblings as princes and princesses in an apparent break from recent precedent.

Bran is a bit of a special case, though - as Robb's direct heir, they decided to create him "Prince of Winterfell" a courtesy title to the Kingship of the North (I wonder if that was historical or modelled on the Targaryen style of "Prince of Dragonstone.").  Presumably, had the Kingdom of the North been allowed to exist and Robb and Jeyne actually had children, Bran's status of "Prince of Winterfell" would have been transferred to Robb's eldest son. Or perhaps, modeled on the "Princedom of Wales" it is formally invested upon an heir, and the occupant of the position holds it for life, regardless of actual place in the succession, i.e. no longer the heir. 

 

Thanks for that info.  Maybe you could help me a bit more with Queen Jeyne. If she were freed from captivity whether she is pregnant or not is she Lady Stark?

I'm curious. I'm curious because with the many upcoming battles in WoW I'm wondering who is going to be in control of WF in DoS. I guess I am trying to visualize who is going to rebuild WF.

I was trying to keep my opening post and thoughts simple. Sometimes when I read other posters ideas it helps clarify things in my mind.

 

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55 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Maybe you could help me a bit more with Queen Jeyne. If she were freed from captivity whether she is pregnant or not is she Lady Stark?

There really is no answer to that question.

As with most real-world medieval countries, Westeros clearly has conflicting traditions on all of the questions that arise once you go beyond sons. Sometimes widows inherit, but often brothers or uncles or maternal second cousins do, and sometimes they go looking for a bastard to legitimize, sometimes they even just declare the house in abeyance and go find a new lord.

The point of the Hornwood succession was to show us that when these questions come up, the only answer is to put them before the liege, who's probably going to make a decision based more on pragmatics than on precedents. (Of course the Vale succession shows us that sometimes, everyone gets together in advance and settles the question in a satisfactory way to avoid that happening, but that isn't happening here.)

So, whether Jeyne becomes Lady Stark will depend on who's sitting on the Iron Throne, and on pragmatic considerations about what's best for the realm—who can best rule, who will the Northern Lords accept, who will the other Lords Paramount accept, who will be faithful to the crown, who has good prospects for an heir so the whole problem doesn't crop up again in a decade or three, who will accept the position (you don't want to declare Bran to be Lord of Winterfell only to have him say no), etc.

Or, if nobody's sitting on the Iron Throne, or the North still considers itself independent, the Northern Lords will get together and pick a new King in the North. They don't seem to have a formal tradition equivalent to the Great Council, but they were able to elect Robb as King via consensus, and they can do the same again. In which case it'll be just as pragmatic, but probably based more on mob sentiment rather than rational questions.

The one piece of good news is that likely nobody's going to be looking for yet another war at that point, so the chances are that either way, whoever's named will be pretty safe in their seat for a few years.

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