Varys has no purpose

[balerionsteel.]

He is useless. Something major has to happen to save his character. He literally serves no purpose by his existence in the show. His only contributing factor was his network of spies which they reduced to simply being there with choclates for children and its up for grabs. Unless there is an impeding betrayal of Dany, or it comes out that he is the one who started "The Lie" that became Roberts rebellion. They have reduced his character to whining about dany going about winning to harshly.

[btfu806]

My guess, and just a pure guess, is they are going to have one last scheme with him and then kill him off. Kinda how they did LF. It may not make sense for the character or their arc, but I think (personally) in the books Varys plot ties a lot with f/Aegon and if that isn't happening in the show, so they don't truly know what to do with his story. So they will invent one last scheme and kill him, at least that's what I think.

But I agree, he doesn't serve a purpose anymore and most likely will be killed off sooner rather than later.

[Hoo]

His purpose is to spy for Cersei.   How else would Cersei know Dany's moves, Olenna's moves?

 

Dany is so naive.  She told him, if you ever fail to tell me that I'm failing my people, I will burn you.  And Varys is like, oh I'll tell you about your people, that's easy.  Don't worry about that. Hehe.

[Deminelle]

Don't forget Varys' talk with Melisandre. She will come back once more. She knows that she and Varys have to die in Westeros. Looks like Melisandre is truly sorry for the mistakes she's done and if there's any plot Varys is scheming, it could be Melisandre who reveals him as a starter of "The Lie". I don't know what their talk was supposed to foreshadow, maybe only their fate and they won't necessarily have anything to do with each other anymore.

I've been thinking that there has to be some other document to prove Rhaegar/Lyanna marriage than only a mention in a diary. Who has it or knows where it is? Varys? But he doesn't know that Jon is their child. Maybe once he hears this, he will be the one who can prove Jon's claim. 

[SuperMario]

35 minutes ago, Hoo said:

His purpose is to spy for Cersei.   How else would Cersei know Dany's moves, Olenna's moves?

 

Dany is so naive.  She told him, if you ever fail to tell me that I'm failing my people, I will burn you.  And Varys is like, oh I'll tell you about your people, that's easy.  Don't worry about that. Hehe.

If they have him spying for Cersei that would be a stupid plot twist. Sadly, they may have him cross Dany for some dumb reason. They unfortunately killed off the character's agency and made him worthless. Unless there is some major aspect that GRRM told D&D about him that is still coming, everything else will be lame. Whatever they plan to do with him whether it is be another background man like Davos, Missworm, etc. or they have him betray Dany, it will come across as dumb.

[Hoo]

7 minutes ago, SuperMario said:

If they have him spying for Cersei that would be a stupid plot twist. Sadly, they may have him cross Dany for some dumb reason. They unfortunately killed off the character's agency and made him worthless. Unless there is some major aspect that GRRM told D&D about him that is still coming, everything else will be lame. Whatever they plan to do with him whether it is be another background man like Davos, Missworm, etc. or they have him betray Dany, it will come across as dumb.

Cersei knew Yara's ships were coming, Olenna and Dorne turned to Dany, she knew Tyrion was coming to a meeting w Jamie, they knew Casterley Rock would be attacked.

Who else would be a master of whispers in Dany's court to know all that and get it to Cersei?

Varys is a spy.  That's his purpose.

[Deminelle]

3 minutes ago, Hoo said:

Cersei knew Yara's ships were coming, Olenna and Dorne turned to Dany, she knew Tyrion was coming to a meeting w Jamie, they knew Casterley Rock would be attacked.

Who else would be a master of whispers in Dany's court to know all that and get it to Cersei?

Varys is a spy.  That's his purpose.

Or Tyrion is the spy. Or maybe they both are spying for Cersei. They fear that Dany will turn to be like her father and they are with her only to appease her.

[btfu806]

8 minutes ago, Hoo said:

Cersei knew Yara's ships were coming, Olenna and Dorne turned to Dany, she knew Tyrion was coming to a meeting w Jamie, they knew Casterley Rock would be attacked.

Who else would be a master of whispers in Dany's court to know all that and get it to Cersei?

Varys is a spy.  That's his purpose.

But why? 

Not disagreeing with you, but wondering what his motives are for spying for Cersei?

[SuperMario]

Or maybe the showrunners are just so inconsistent on what people know and don't know. They knew Casterly Rock was going to be attacked, but apparently they had no idea thousands of Dothraki riders and a big ass dragon were just over the horizon to attack their caravan?

This show foreshadows and telegraphs every heavily. So far, nothing has shown that Varys has been betraying her. If it comes up out of the clear blue, it would be quite forced.

 

[Hoo]

37 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

But why? 

Not disagreeing with you, but wondering what his motives are for spying for Cersei?

Dany is unreasonable with incredible power and vengance.

There are little hints to this, like the "my people" and breaking of chains.  She gives no consideration to higher order things, and in return she will burn you.

Varys is a higher up, like LF and Cersei.  They do not get caught up in small things, and they know the full game.  They are not dumb like Sansa and Arya.  They topple unreasonable kings and queens, big-time players.

This indicates Cersei knew Tyrion was saved by Jamie and Varys, and Maybe even Tywin made that decision.  Tyrion does not know this, which makes him a fool, he is not the one spying, he is just trying to be reasonable but ends up doing wrong things. Or, maybe ge does know something, which is why he felt comfortable meeting Cersei.

Is the fact that Dany went beyond the wall good for the realm?  That the NK has a dragon?

Is it good that Dany has no spies in KL but Cersei does on her court?

Is it good that that Dany offered peace and full information to Cersei in time of war while Cersei was reeling?

Can Varys trust someone so dumb and naive with his life snd the realm?

The answers are no, he cannot!

 

 

 

[MinscS2]

11 minutes ago, Hoo said:

Dany is unreasonable with incredible power and vengance.

Really now?
If anything, Dany has proved over and over that she can be reasoned with and persuaded, and that she has no problems with reconsider her plan of action if someone actually gives her a good argument to why she should do as they say.
Jorah, Barristan, Daario, Hizdar, Tyrion and Jon are all examples of characters who made her reconsider and reevaluate things.
 

[Hoo]

2 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Really now?
If anything, Dany has proved over and over that she can be reasoned with and persuaded, and that she has no problems with reconsider her plan of action if someone actually gives her a good argument to why she should do as they say.
Jorah, Barristan, Daario, Hizdar, Tyrion and Jon are all examples of characters who made her reconsider and reevaluate things.
 

I disagree.  Those characters cater to her ego.  Things like, she does not want to be lied to, she  likes heroism in service of people, she likes people taking interest in her, etc.

But she cannot agree to political things out of her comfort zone because it's a reasonable thing to do.  She would never allow slavers 7 years to change the system.  It had to be now.  She's s political novice.

There are serious deficiencies with her rule from the Westeros high politics point of view.

[btfu806]

14 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Really now?
If anything, Dany has proved over and over that she can be reasoned with and persuaded, and that she has no problems with reconsider her plan of action if someone actually gives her a good argument to why she should do as they say.
Jorah, Barristan, Daario, Hizdar, Tyrion and Jon are all examples of characters who made her reconsider and reevaluate things.
 

Mostly agree with this though there have been a couple of times when it was her way or the highway. Off the top of my head, burning alive the Tarlays (I thought Tyrion had a good counter argument but he definitely could have made a better one). And I wanna say she did something else like that back in Mareen or something but my memory is so hazy with that, that I could be way off and obviously wrong. So if I am wrong, there was only one time, IMO but if there were something before then there might have been a few times.
BUT! I would say that recently (season 7) she definitely comes across as more reasonable and being able to be persuaded.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

2 hours ago, btfu806 said:

My guess, and just a pure guess, is they are going to have one last scheme with him and then kill him off. Kinda how they did LF. It may not make sense for the character or their arc, but I think (personally) in the books Varys plot ties a lot with f/Aegon and if that isn't happening in the show, so they don't truly know what to do with his story. So they will invent one last scheme and kill him, at least that's what I think.

But I agree, he doesn't serve a purpose anymore and most likely will be killed off sooner rather than later.

I fully agree with this - they'll use him as a prop for something.  Poor Littlefinger, he was a shadow of the clever, devious, and funny man we knew in seasons 1-5.  He used to be funny, like when he asked Renly when Loras was having him.  Then his voiced sounded more and more serious and like he had smoked 9 packs of cigs a day and he never had that pep in his step again.  They never should have done the Sansa is fArya thing - it ruined Littlefinger moreso than Sansa and made his downfall less fun.  They are going to fuck this up with Varys now since he doesn't have Aegon.

1 hour ago, Hoo said:

Cersei knew Yara's ships were coming, Olenna and Dorne turned to Dany, she knew Tyrion was coming to a meeting w Jamie, they knew Casterley Rock would be attacked.

Who else would be a master of whispers in Dany's court to know all that and get it to Cersei?

Varys is a spy.  That's his purpose.

1 hour ago, SuperMario said:

Or maybe the showrunners are just so inconsistent on what people know and don't know. They knew Casterly Rock was going to be attacked, but apparently they had no idea thousands of Dothraki riders and a big ass dragon were just over the horizon to attack their caravan?

This show foreshadows and telegraphs every heavily. So far, nothing has shown that Varys has been betraying her. If it comes up out of the clear blue, it would be quite forced.

 

I don't think Varys being a spy for Cersei would be all that unexpected.  In S5 Varys only shows up in Meereen right after Daenerys is whisked away out of the fighting pits, he lets go that one woman who was supporting the Harpy, showed his disdain for Kinvara, and then once he leaves for his "secret mission" to bring Dorne and the Reach into the fold is when the siege of Meereen starts.  So he never actively interacted with Daenerys until we saw them on the boat at the end of S7, he showed up under bad circumstances, and left with even worse circumstances.  I really thought Varys was going to turn out to be the show Harpy for a hot minute.

[MinscS2]

20 minutes ago, Hoo said:

I disagree.  Those characters cater to her ego.  Things like, she does not want to be lied to, she  likes heroism in service of people, she likes people taking interest in her, etc.

But she cannot agree to political things out of her comfort zone because it's a reasonable thing to do.  She would never allow slavers 7 years to change the system.  It had to be now.  She's s political novice.

I'm not disagreeing that she's a political novice, but that wasn't your original statement. You said she was unreasonable.
There have been loads of times when she believes something or wants to do something (usually something rash, but not always) and people have talked her out of it.

She wanted to execute all the masters in Astapor and Yunkai. Jorah talked her out of it.
She wanted to destroy Astapor and Yunkai. Tyrion talked her out of it.
She thought that what she had been told about her father was lies, but Barristan told her that her father was, in fact, a cruel and evil man, something she's now more than willing to admit, to her own detriment.
She didn't want to reopen the fighting pits in Mereen due to her view on slavery. Hizdar and Daario convinced her to open them.
She wanted to storm Kings Landing with her dragons, Tyrion and later Jon talked her out of it.
I can go on, but I think you get my point.

Dany is not above humbling herself or backing down if someone gives her a good reason to not do what she wants to do. It doesn't always work of course, but her black and white approach to good and evil is one of her flaws, a flaw she's started rectifying back in season 4 (or was it 5?) when she learned that not all masters where cruel, and not all slaves where victims.

 

[Hoo]

@MinscS2

Varis told Tyrion, you have to get in her ear to control her.  Varys is not on her side imo. 

To me Dany is political child, therefore unfit for big game. She's a mix of Jon Snow's blind heroism, Sweetrobin's moondoor whims, and Stannis's desperation.  She never had a loyal Tywin-like figure to teach her the ways of Targ rule at high level.  That's a deficiency. And time is running out.

She asked Tyrion to teach her.  But Tyrion is not a Targ.

Lady Olenna gave her a good advice, you are a dragon, be a dragon.  Don't listen to your advisors, they don't understand you.  Be mean, and conquer!  Play on your strengths.

But to make matters worse she is surrounded by some weak advisors, traitors, incompetents.

I really hope Jorah discovers the treason and kills Varys.

[balerionsteel.]

Unfortunately i think the series will be fairly cut and dry from this point forward. Minus 1 more big WTF Reveal. Whether that be something with bran and night king or some other overal plot that dates back to the beginning. I could easily see them, for times-sake, phasing varys out completely just as they have done to so many other storylines. the only thing that keeps me hoping is how much effort they put into Tyrion and Varys being blatantly offput by what they perceive is Dany's cruelness. Some how after all these schemes the 2 have played they have grown hearts, wildfire on the blackwater was genius but dragon flame against 1,000 enemies was cruel and mad-king like....But thats neither here nor there.

I like the idea that Varys knows about Jon's parentage. You have to think that At the time, there was almost NOTHING varys didnt know about. Remember , HE was the one who told Aerys not to open the gates for Tywin. Varys is pretty smart, as was little finger. We basically know that littlefinger did not believe that lyanna was raped or kidnapped. That said, lyannas mysterious' death had to have been a question at some point. The appearance of a bastard by ned stark after he finds his sister, who wasnt kidnapped or raped, dead isnt the hardest puzzle to solve.

[Deminelle]

8 hours ago, Hoo said:

I really hope Jorah discovers the treason and kills Varys.

Then Jorah would have finally done something useful.

[falcotron]

10 hours ago, Deminelle said:

Or Tyrion is the spy. Or maybe they both are spying for Cersei.

Maybe everyone is spying for Cersei—Varys, Tyrion, Jorah, Missandei, even Dany herself.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

10 hours ago, SuperMario said:

If they have him spying for Cersei that would be a stupid plot twist. Sadly, they may have him cross Dany for some dumb reason. They unfortunately killed off the character's agency and made him worthless. Unless there is some major aspect that GRRM told D&D about him that is still coming, everything else will be lame. Whatever they plan to do with him whether it is be another background man like Davos, Missworm, etc. or they have him betray Dany, it will come across as dumb.

There have been several hints dropped this season and a pretty good case to be made that Varys has been supporting a Lannister dynasty the whole time.  Then again, it looks like the Golden Company will be introduced next season so who knows?