AlaskanSandman

Braavos, Tyrosh, and Dorne, Lemons Tree's and a Red Door. Go.

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So i wanted to start a thread about Dany and her years from Dragonstone forward and what happened, and what we know for sure. From there im curious the many speculations as to what happened or is happening. I will not be touching upon parent theories and we'll be assuming Dany is Dany. 

So the first thing we know is that Ser Willem Darry and 4 loyal guards "Break in and smuggle" Dany and Viserys out of Dragonstone and on to Braavos, as told to us by Dany via Viserys to her. The year is 284.

Here in Braavos is supposedly where the House with the Red Door is and the Lemon Tree that sat outside of Dany's window of her own personal room. 

Now sometime while in Braavos, a marriage pact is supposedly made between Darry on behalf of Viserys, and Oberyn on behalf of Arianne and Dorne with the Sea Lord of Braavos as Witness. Now as to when this happened? I think it happened in 285 to 286 AC. Based on Quentyn's being sent to be fostered for damages caused by Oberyn over 10 years prior when Oberyn was 16. Oberyn claims he was 14 or 15 visiting for Tyrions birth in 273Ac. So he was 16 by 275 at the latest. So i think 285 to 286Ac is when Doran wrote Quentyn having his plans for Arianne already in place. Now why Braavos is a Targaryen, idk. Maybe long as they dont have dragons it's ok? This pact comes from Quentyn to Dany in Mereen but is mentioned again by Doran to Arianne. 

*Edit- Viserys knows nothing of the Pact, and Illyrio and Varys are also unaware that the pact was made (As per GRRM)

Now, next thing we know is that Doran claims Arianne at some point (Assuming before Targs are booted from House with lemon tree and red door?) was to go to Tyrosh to serve as cup bearer to the Archon, who's daughter was being fostered in Dorne. There, Arianne was to meet her betrothed for the first time. Though this is dashed due to her mother Mellario threatening to hurt her self if she lost another child. Its unknown if Trystan is born yet at this time, but Trystan was born in 287Ac. Now here we have among Braavos and Dorne, now Tyrosh. 

Next thing we know is that 5 years after dragon stone Darry got sick and died shorty after. Making Dany roughly 5 and the year 289AC. Here Dany and Viserys are kicked out of the House with the Red Door in Braavos after being robbed of most there belongings. Though not all as they have a crown and some how enough money to feast the Golden Company some unknown time later.

*Edit- At this time in 289 Jorah Mormont suspiciously wins the Tourney at Lannisport celebrating the Victory of the Ironborn rebellion. Jorah wed Lynesse Hightower the same year.

From here Dany and Viserys wander, with accounts of where they went as far as order being mixed up. All we know is that they traveled the Free Cities seeking refuge and under the impression they are hunted by Robert Baratheon. Some time during their wanderings though, they take a boat back to Braavos (again?) to seek refuge. Who from since being kicked out the first time? Idk. Anyone? Dany makes mention of having sailed a hundred times though. Suggesting many manyyyy trips to the Coastal cities. 

Again, at some time during these years. Viserys some how have enough money to feast the Golden Company, who eat his food, laugh at him and leave. Though years later are on their way to meet Dany and seem fine with supporting a Targaryen, even after switching to Aegon. The Golden Company being founded by Bitter Steel and historically supporting Blackfyres.

*Edit- Some time during these years, at least 2 years after 289, in 291 or later. Lynesse Hightower leaves Jorah Mormont (who never distinguished him self in a tourney again) for a wealthy magister of Tyrosh. This Tyroshy may or may not be connected to Illyrio and Varys and working against the Archon of Tyrosh. Jorah at some point after travels east where he learns Dothraki custom and language.

The next thing we know for sure is in 297 or 298? Dany and Viserys are with Illyrio in his Mance at Pentos and have been staying there for 6 months according to Dany. Though Illyrio speaks to Tyrion of years of planning being ruined when the night before the wedding Viserys tries to sneak in and take her maiden head as if he cant wed her then he'll at least take that. Most interesting given Illyrio's possible Blackfyre connection, and his seemingly disregard for Dany, he gives Dany 3 dragons eggs worth alottttt of money. 

Now from here a few weird things happen. Long and short of it is that Illyrio seems to trick Viserys into going with Dany by telling him he'd be better off to stay, while knowing how anxious Viserys is for his army. Either way, while out with them, it is hell for Viserys. Though he does seem to be lead on by Jorah. Even getting drunk before his death when he supposedly has no money. Then Jorah magnifies the situation in the tent rather than doing what Dany says and defusing it. This whole time Jorah keeps telling Dany about Asshai, and after Drogos death, suggesting they go there for some reason. 

Now up to Drogo's death there is the assassination attempt sent by the small council. Was this assassin supposed to succeed? Jorah receives a pardon but then saves Dany. Illyrio tells Tryion he expected Dany to die in the Dothraki Sea. Was this when. If so, what was supposed to happen with his dragon eggs? Jorah just returns the eggs? Or was Jorah to take them to Asshai? 

Later Drogo dies and possibly due to Mirri Maz Dur, or because Drogo interfered with her healing poultice and Jorah brought a birthing Dany into the tent when Mirri said no one must enter. So was Mirri helping or hurting? Mirri mentions training with Marwyn who we later learn has Alleras/Sarella, daughter of Oberyn with him. Suggesting a connection back to Dorne and House Martell. Then when Dany burns her along with the eggs and such, Mirri begins singing something. Was it a spell to protect Dany from the fire? or a spell to help hatch the eggs? Here forward though, Jorah never mentions Asshai again. 

*Edit- Dany hatches her dragons in the year 299Ac

Jorah guides Dany to Qarth where Illyrio gets word of her and her dragons, sending ships to bring her back to Pentos. Jorah advises against it with out an army at her back suggesting he'w aware of Illyrio. Illyrio also send Belwas, and Barristan some how. 

*Edit- The Cinnamon Wind sails to Qarth from Old Town where its captain Quhuru Mo tells Dany they're headed for the Jade Sea and wont return for a year.

*Edit- 299 Ac is the year in ACOK that the Battle of the Blackwater takes place.

Now from here Dany goes to Mereen to get her army and we learn that Illyrio has another supposed Targaryen he's been supporting for years. Which begs the question why he wasn't helping Dany and Viserys sooner. Suspicion surrounds Aegon though as a possible Blackfyre. Though Varys claims to Kevan that he's real. If he's not real, it could suggest that Illyrios years of planning with Varys involved putting Dany and Viserys out of the House with the Red Door and drive fear into them thinking that they're being hunted?

*Edit- The year is now 300Ac that Dany is in Mereen and the marked roughly by the Purple wedding, the Alliace between Lannister and Tryell houses following the Battle of the Blackwater.

*Edit- Around this time the Cinnamon Wind pops up in Braavos where it takes on Sam Tarly, Aemon, Gilly, and the babe. Where it's suspected Marwyn has been entering Aemon's dreams in search of Dragon knowledge. The ship arrives in Old Town where it's inspected twice, the second time by Lord Leyton's son Gunthor Hightower himself who has a private conversation with a Qurulu Mo, rather than the captain Quhuru Mo. Maester Marwyn later sails off on an undisclosed ship, which may or may not be the Cinnamon Wind. It is unknown if Marwyn is working with the Hightowers or not, but clear that Marwyn is working independently of the Citidel. The Hightowers who founded the Citidel may well have access to the same glass candles Marwyn uses. In fact one of the four brought from Valyria 100 years before the doom to the Citidel was green rather than black like the other 3. Which may suggest it went to the Hightowers who made up the Green faction during the Dance of the Dragons.

Now Illyrio had the Archon of Tyrosh's brother at the Wedding for Drogo and Dany. So is Tyrosh switching sides? Cause there seems to be 2 sides, the Martells and Dorne and Illyrio and Varys. Tyrosh seems to have been with Dorne for some time but now seem to be with Illyrio. Is this all tied to the war between the Free Cities? Could the involvement of Braavos and the Sea Lords seeming death and Tyrosh's flipping alliances all tied to the War with the Free Cities? 

These are most of the main points i could think of with out going in depth on the Blackfyre conspiracy and background, assuming most know the history and theories there. Interested in any thoughts on what may be happening here. :)

For my theory about Dany before Dragonstone and thoughts on her parentage please check out my thread

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/148587-jon-and-dany-true-identities-from-birth-into-hiding/

 

Edited by AlaskanSandman
Edit- Added notes. Nothing changed, just added too.

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4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So i wanted to start a thread about Dany and her years from Dragonstone forward and what happened, and what we know for sure. From there im curious the many speculations as to what happened or is happening. I will not be touching upon parent theories and we'll be assuming Dany is Dany. 

So the first thing we know is that Ser Willem Darry and 4 loyal guards "Break in and smuggle" Dany and Viserys out of Dragonstone and on to Braavos, as told to us by Dany via Viserys to her. The year is 284.

Here in Braavos is supposedly where the House with the Red Door is and the Lemon Tree that sat outside of Dany's window of her own personal room. 

Now sometime while in Braavos, a marriage pact is supposedly made between Darry on behalf of Viserys, and Oberyn on behalf of Arianne and Dorne with the Sea Lord of Braavos as Witness. Now as to when this happened? I think it happened in 285 to 286 AC. Based on Quentyn's being sent to be fostered for damages caused by Oberyn over 10 years prior when Oberyn was 16. Oberyn claims he was 14 or 15 visiting for Tyrions birth in 273Ac. So he was 16 by 275 at the latest. So i think 285 to 286Ac is when Doran wrote Quentyn having his plans for Arianne already in place. Now why Braavos is a Targaryen, idk. Maybe long as they dont have dragons it's ok? This pact comes from Quentyn to Dany in Mereen but is mentioned again by Doran to Arianne. 

Edit- Viserys knows nothing of the Pact, and Illyrio and Varys are also unaware that the pact was made (As per GRRM)

Now, next thing we know is that Doran claims Arianne at some point (Assuming before Targs are booted from House with lemon tree and red door?) was to go to Tyrosh to serve as cup bearer to the Archon, who's daughter was being fostered in Dorne. There, Arianne was to meet her betrothed for the first time. Though this is dashed due to her mother Mellario threatening to hurt her self if she lost another child. Its unknown if Trystan is born yet at this time, but Trystan was born in 287Ac. Now here we have among Braavos and Dorne, now Tyrosh. 

Next thing we know is that 5 years after dragon stone Darry got sick and died shorty after. Making Dany roughly 5 and the year 289AC. Here Dany and Viserys are kicked out of the House with the Red Door in Braavos after being robbed of most there belongings. Though not all as they have a crown and some how enough money to feast the Golden Company some unknown time later.

From here Dany and Viserys wander, with accounts of where they went as far as order being mixed up. All we know is that they traveled the Free Cities seeking refuge and under the impression they are hunted by Robert Baratheon. Some time during their wanderings though, they take a boat back to Braavos (again?) to seek refuge. Who from since being kicked out the first time? Idk. Anyone? Dany makes mention of having sailed a hundred times though. Suggesting many manyyyy trips to the Coastal cities. 

Again, at some time during these years. Viserys some how have enough money to feast the Golden Company, who eat his food, laugh at him and leave. Though years later are on their way to meet Dany and seem fine with supporting a Targaryen, even after switching to Aegon. The Golden Company being founded by Bitter Steel and historically supporting Blackfyres.

So many readers focus on Daenerys-related mysteries, but I don't think the author ever intended for there to be any mysteries about her backstory, just details that develop Daenerys's character for the reader. 

Quote

"A feigned boy is what he has," said Randyll Tarly. "That may be. Or not." Kevan Lannister had been here, in this very hall when Tywin had laid the bodies of Prince Rhaegar's children at the foot of the Iron Throne, wrapped up in crimson cloaks. The girl had been recognizably the Princess Rhaenys, but the boy … a faceless horror of bone and brain and gore, a few hanks of fair hair. None of us looked long. Tywin said that it was Prince Aegon, and we took him at his word. "We have these tales coming from the east as well. A second Targaryen, and one whose blood no man can question. Daenerys Stormborn."

Epilogue, Dance (emphasis added) 

The author even hinted at the conception of Daenerys through Jaime's point of view...

Quote

They slept apart and did their best to avoid each other during the waking hours. But whenever Aerys gave a man to the flames, Queen Rhaella would have a visitor in the night. The day he burned his mace-and-dagger Hand, Jaime and Jon Darry had stood at guard outside her bedchamber whilst the king took his pleasure. "You're hurting me," they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. ...

Jaime had only seen Rhaella once after that, the morning of the day she left for Dragonstone. The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon's High Hill to the waiting ship, but he heard her maids whispering after she was gone. They said the queen looked as if some beast had savaged her, clawing at her thighs and chewing on her breasts. A crowned beast, Jaime knew.

Jaime II, Feast 16

Aerys burned Chelsted, took his pleasure with Rhaella, and then sent Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone within a few days after the Battle of the Trident...

Quote

"My Sworn Brothers were all away, you see, but Aerys liked to keep me close. I was my father's son, so he did not trust me. He wanted me where Varys could watch me, day and night. So I heard it all." He remembered how Rossart's eyes would shine when he unrolled his maps to show where the substance must be placed. Garigus and Belis were the same. "Rhaegar met Robert on the Trident, and you know what happened there. When the word reached court, Aerys packed the queen off to Dragonstone with Prince Viserys. Princess Elia would have gone as well, but he forbade it. Somehow he had gotten it in his head that Prince Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident, but he thought he could keep Dorne loyal so long as he kept Elia and Aegon by his side. 

Jaime V, Storm 37

Viserys was eight, Daenerys was born approximately nine months later, Rhaella died birthing her, and the Targaryen fleet was destroyed by a violent summer storm...

Quote

She had never seen this land her brother said was theirs, this realm beyond the narrow sea. ... Viserys had been a boy of eight when they fled King's Landing to escape the advancing armies of the Usurper, but Daenerys had been only a quickening in their mother's womb.

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. ... She had been born on Dragonstone nine moons after their flight, while a raging summer storm threatened to rip the island fastness apart. They said that storm was terrible. The Targaryen fleet was smashed while it lay at anchor, and huge stone blocks were ripped from the parapets and sent hurtling into the wild waters of the narrow sea. Her mother had died birthing her, and for that her brother Viserys had never forgiven her. 

Daenerys I, Game 3

Within the time it took Stannis to build a fleet to sail to, and seize, Dragonstone, but before Daenerys was weened (within a year?), Willem Darry and four other loyal men escaped with Viserys and Daenerys, sailing away from Dragonstone for Braavos...

Quote

She did not remember Dragonstone either. They had run again, just before the Usurper's brother set sail with his new-built fleet. By then only Dragonstone itself, the ancient seat of their House, had remained of the Seven Kingdoms that had once been theirs. It would not remain for long. The garrison had been prepared to sell them to the Usurper, but one night Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men had broken into the nursery and stolen them both, along with her wet nurse, and set sail under cover of darkness for the safety of the Braavosian coast.

She remembered Ser Willem dimly, a great grey bear of a man, half-blind, roaring and bellowing orders from his sickbed. The servants had lived in terror of him, but he had always been kind to Dany. He called her "Little Princess" and sometimes "My Lady," and his hands were soft as old leather. He never left his bed, though, and the smell of sickness clung to him day and night, a hot, moist, sickly sweet odor. That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door. Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window. After Ser Willem had died, the servants had stolen what little money they had left, and soon after they had been put out of the big house. Dany had cried when the red door closed behind them forever.

Daenerys I, Game 3

Apparently, Daenerys was about five or six when this happened, so Viserys was between 13 and 15 when they left Braavos. Here's the rest of what we know of their itinerary...

Quote

They had wandered since then, from Braavos to Myr, from Myr to Tyrosh, and on to Qohor and Volantis and Lys, never staying long in any one place. Her brother would not allow it. The Usurper's hired knives were close behind them, he insisted, though Dany had never seen one.

At first the magisters and archons and merchant princes were pleased to welcome the last Targaryens to their homes and tables, but as the years passed and the Usurper continued to sit upon the Iron Throne, doors closed and their lives grew meaner. Years past they had been forced to sell their last few treasures, and now even the coin they had gotten from Mother's crown had gone. In the alleys and wine sinks of Pentos, they called her brother "the beggar king." Dany did not want to know what they called her.

Daenerys I, Game 3

So, presumably, they fled from Dragonstone to Braavos under the protection of the Sealord of Braavos, and they lived there for about six years. During that time, Oberyn Martell and Willem betrothed Viserys to Arianne, as witnessed (brokered?) by the Sealord. Presumably, either that Sealord was replaced by a less Targaryen-friendly Sealord, or the Sealord tired of their presence, and after Willem died, they felt it necessary to leave Braavos, having lost their money, but managing to take at least a few valuables with them. 

First they traveled to Myr, where they were welcomed by a magister or a merchant prince. Why?

Then to Tyrosh, presumably to be welcomed by the Archon, perhaps to fulfill this agreement...

Quote

"That green-haired girl was the Archon's daughter. I was to have sent you to Tyrosh in her place. You would have served the Archon as a cupbearer and met with your betrothed in secret, but your mother threatened to harm herself if I stole another of her children, and I ... I could not do that to her.

The Princess in the Tower, Feast 40

So, that agreement to exchange Arianne for the Archon's daughter was broken by Doran, and then Viserys and Daenerys were off to Qohor. Why? And why did they leave Qohor for Volantis? Did they ride a pole boat down the Royne, under the Bridge of Dream? Were they welcomed within the Black Walls of Volantis? And why did they then flee to Lys? This quote suggests that they moved around even more frequently...

Quote

The narrow sea was often stormy, and Dany had crossed it half a hundred times as a girl, running from one Free City to the next half a step ahead of the Usurper's hired knives. ... Once on a voyage to Braavos, as she'd watched the crew wrestle down a great green sail in a rising gale, she had even thought how fine it would be to be a sailor

Daenerys I, Storm 8

Fifty trips across the Narrow Sea over approximately six or seven years seems extremely doubtful to the point where it is almost certainly an exaggeration. Nevertheless, Daenerys does appear to recall traveling to Braavos, most likely aboard a Volantene galley given the green sails. Perhaps they traveled from Volantis to Braavos, found no welcome, and then went on to Lys before ending up in Pentos. Were Viserys and Daenerys in Lys when Illyrio sent for them? Was there any hint or confirmation as to whether they visited Lorath or Norvos?

Are any of these details critical to our understanding to the plot? If not, they can be left vague. If they are important, the author will have to fill them in. 

The one really important episode related to the second main conflict of ASOIAF is the meeting with the Golden Company...

Quote

Her brother Viserys had once feasted the captains of the Golden Company, in hopes they might take up his cause. They ate his food and heard his pleas and laughed at him. Dany had only been a little girl, but she remembered.

Daenerys III, Dance 16

Since the Golden Company seem to be most closely connected with the Three Daughters and the Disputed Lands, We can speculate that this feat occurred in Myr, Tyrosh, or Lys. If the itinerary the George gave us is accurate, and the suggestion that they traveled even more widely is an exaggeration, we could guess that Viserys feasted the captains of the Golden Company in Myr, when he still had some wealth in their last few treasures, or in Tyrosh, where the Archon seems to have been involved in Doran's plot to wed Arianne to Viserys after Viserys found his army (was this the army Doran was hoping for?), or in Lys, which might be where Illyrio sent for them. Did Viserys host the Golden Company in Myr when he was still just a boy? Did the Archon of Tyrosh host, or at least provide the funds for, the feast as part of his plotting with Doran? Or did Illyrio arrange, clandestinely, for Viserys to feast the captains of the Golden Company in Lys, perhaps to show Viserys that he was out of options before inviting him and Daenerys to Pentos? 

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4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

So many readers focus on Daenerys-related mysteries, but I don't think the author ever intended for there to be any mysteries about her backstory, just details that develop Daenerys's character for the reader. 

Epilogue, Dance (emphasis added) 

The author even hinted at the conception of Daenerys through Jaime's point of view...

Jaime II, Feast 16

Aerys burned Chelsted, took his pleasure with Rhaella, and then sent Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone within a few days after the Battle of the Trident...

Jaime V, Storm 37

Viserys was eight, Daenerys was born approximately nine months later, Rhaella died birthing her, and the Targaryen fleet was destroyed by a violent summer storm...

Daenerys I, Game 3

Within the time it took Stannis to build a fleet to sail to, and seize, Dragonstone, but before Daenerys was weened (within a year?), Willem Darry and four other loyal men escaped with Viserys and Daenerys, sailing away from Dragonstone for Braavos...

Daenerys I, Game 3

Apparently, Daenerys was about five or six when this happened, so Viserys was between 13 and 15 when they left Braavos. Here's the rest of what we know of their itinerary...

Daenerys I, Game 3

So, presumably, they fled from Dragonstone to Braavos under the protection of the Sealord of Braavos, and they lived there for about six years. During that time, Oberyn Martell and Willem betrothed Viserys to Arianne, as witnessed (brokered?) by the Sealord. Presumably, either that Sealord was replaced by a less Targaryen-friendly Sealord, or the Sealord tired of their presence, and after Willem died, they felt it necessary to leave Braavos, having lost their money, but managing to take at least a few valuables with them. 

First they traveled to Myr, where they were welcomed by a magister or a merchant prince. Why?

Then to Tyrosh, presumably to be welcomed by the Archon, perhaps to fulfill this agreement...

The Princess in the Tower, Feast 40

So, that agreement to exchange Arianne for the Archon's daughter was broken by Doran, and then Viserys and Daenerys were off to Qohor. Why? And why did they leave Qohor for Volantis? Did they ride a pole boat down the Royne, under the Bridge of Dream? Were they welcomed within the Black Walls of Volantis? And why did they then flee to Lys? This quote suggests that they moved around even more frequently...

Daenerys I, Storm 8

Fifty trips across the Narrow Sea over approximately six or seven years seems extremely doubtful to the point where it is almost certainly an exaggeration. Nevertheless, Daenerys does appear to recall traveling to Braavos, most likely aboard a Volantene galley given the green sails. Perhaps they traveled from Volantis to Braavos, found no welcome, and then went on to Lys before ending up in Pentos. Were Viserys and Daenerys in Lys when Illyrio sent for them? Was there any hint or confirmation as to whether they visited Lorath or Norvos?

Are any of these details critical to our understanding to the plot? If not, they can be left vague. If they are important, the author will have to fill them in. 

The one really important episode related to the second main conflict of ASOIAF is the meeting with the Golden Company...

Daenerys III, Dance 16

Since the Golden Company seem to be most closely connected with the Three Daughters and the Disputed Lands, We can speculate that this feat occurred in Myr, Tyrosh, or Lys. If the itinerary the George gave us is accurate, and the suggestion that they traveled even more widely is an exaggeration, we could guess that Viserys feasted the captains of the Golden Company in Myr, when he still had some wealth in their last few treasures, or in Tyrosh, where the Archon seems to have been involved in Doran's plot to wed Arianne to Viserys after Viserys found his army (was this the army Doran was hoping for?), or in Lys, which might be where Illyrio sent for them. Did Viserys host the Golden Company in Myr when he was still just a boy? Did the Archon of Tyrosh host, or at least provide the funds for, the feast as part of his plotting with Doran? Or did Illyrio arrange, clandestinely, for Viserys to feast the captains of the Golden Company in Lys, perhaps to show Viserys that he was out of options before inviting him and Daenerys to Pentos? 

Well, one. I said id avoid anything related to Dany's parentage. Hence why i never mentioned anything before Dragonstone and stated that we'll be assuming Dany is the child of Aerys and Rhaella. 

Second, i personally avoided getting into which free city she visited first and in what order as her first account contradicts her later accounts, and the original list given makes little sense in and of it self. Possibly it's important though, but with out offering any thoughts to what it would mean, you just added the info i specifically mentioned to purposely avoiding haha

That being said. The Golden Company is of mystery. Why Illyrio gave Dany eggs while supporting Aegon who may be a Blackfyre is a mystery. Especially with his comment to Tyrion about assuming she would just die. What Illyrio is up to between Aegon and Dany is tied up in it so speculations and Varys and Illyrio are good. How Dany hatched the dragon eggs is good. Quiathe, Qarth, Darrio, THOTU? The Free cities and why they would be involved? How that would effect their war with each other? The slave trade? Literally there are alot of things after dragon stone that deal with Dany and her path other than just the potential mysteries of  Dragonstone and possible different parents. 

The idea that Dany's story is that linear seems rather odd to me. Seems rather Tolkienish, something Martin is against. Seems very Hobbit level of writing. Cant say LOTR level as that had deeper connections to the Ring of power and Morgoth and the Valar and Maiar who specifically are part of the fight for the Ring. That's too complex. 

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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11 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Interested in any thoughts on what may be happening here. :)

The lemon tree was an artifact of an earlier draft where Dany was raised in Tyrosh. nothing more 

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Why would Tyrosh support Doran and Viserys and then switch to Illyrio and Dany? Did Illyrio know about Tyrosh's involvement before or is this coincidence? 

Illyrio possibly wants Westeros for Aegon but Illyrio is a slaver. Braavos is against slavers. So Illyrio has to be against Braavos firstly. If he want's any Free Cities to support his endeavors in Westeros, its likely Slavery would play an economic part in this. Lys, Myr, Tyrosh, Volantis and Pentos is on the edge of Slavery. There's aspects of politics and economics going on around Dany that may have a part in what's going on. Plus the Magic. What's Braavos doing in response to a possible war over the Free Cities or Westeros? Is Old Town caught up in it? The Cinnamon Wind?

The lemon tree can even be discussed as not being in Braavos, could be in Dorne. That would greatly change the whole traveling the Free cities after being booted from Braavos bit. So what would be going on there then? If they were in Dorne, how and why are they in Essos now? Why are they not in Dorne? 

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8 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The lemon tree was an artifact of an earlier draft where Dany was raised in Tyrosh. nothing more 

Even then, whats the final? Dorne? Braavos? Either way it contradict what information we have on some level. Even if she was where she thinks, it doesn't add up. Why would they be kicked out of Braavos and Sea Lords Mance just cause Darry died?

If it was Tyrosh, why does she think Braavos. Why is Braavos still involved in the pact? 

The lemon tree may just be a metaphor for Dorne. But still doesn't explain Braavos and Sea Lord or the eviction and subsequent years.

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15 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The lemon tree was an artifact of an earlier draft where Dany was raised in Tyrosh. nothing more 

Really? Dany's big house with the red door and the lemon tree appears majorly in GoT, and it can stand as Dany's desire for home above all else. But there's also a house with a red door that appears in one of Dany's visions in the House of Undying in CoK. It could be Dany's old home: she sees a barefooted little girl running towards a house with a red door. But she doesn't really recognize the girl as herself. And would she, the "little princess," be barefooted? Could this house with the red door have some other significance to Dany's story? 

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The Original plot has Dany has the bad guy, a threat taking shape in the east. Now every thing in the books we've read so far (and the friggin show) has us sympathizing with Dany and generally assuming from book 2 that shed be hooking up with the Starks to destroy the Lannisters (who clearly sit on her throne) and help the Starks destroy the Others for a merry happy ending. Is that what every one really think is going on and is gonna happen? Dany is not a threat? and her story is that simple and linear? So essentially the books big twist are Ned dies, The Red Wedding, Hodor and the children obviously created the Others, and Jon Is child of Rhaegar and Lyanna (Not a big surprise since its said he raped her), is that it? The rest just minor mysteries such as little finger and the cats paw?

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3 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Really? Dany's big house with the red door and the lemon tree appears majorly in GoT, and it can stand as Dany's desire for home above all else. But there's also a house with a red door that appears in one of Dany's visions in the House of Undying in CoK. It could be Dany's old home: she sees a barefooted little girl running towards a house with a red door. But she doesn't really recognize the girl as herself. And would she, the "little princess," be barefooted? Could this house with the red door have some other significance to Dany's story? 

Agreed. Looking for some of that creative thinking

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4 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Even then, whats the final? Dorne? Braavos?

she was born on DS, raised in Bravos until Darry died, and fled with his brother slowly selling the last of their royal possessions until they had nothing to pawn, then they were taken in by Fatty McFatterton, as was written in the final version of the books we love

6 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 Either way it contradict what information we have on some level. Even if she was where she thinks, it doesn't add up. Why would they be kicked out of Braavos and Sea Lords Mance just cause Darry died?

Nom, it doesn't. We have examples of greenhouses in Winterfell that allow vegetables to grow in the dead of winter. The same would be available in a wealthy cosmopolitan city like Bravos. All of that adds up just fine.
As for being kicked out of Bravos, they weren't.  They were run out of their home by their servants when the man taking care of them died.

The house was never said to belong to the Sealord. Viserys took them to almost every free city begging to raise an army to retake his throne. Hence the "Beggar Prince" moniker

13 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

If it was Tyrosh, why does she think Braavos. Why is Braavos still involved in the pact? 

you are not looking at the words that are written. The house with the red door in Tyrosh was a relic from a previous draft.  GRRM makes mistakes. Like Renly's eye color or Jeyne's hips. It is why he has proofreaders now. As per the books that were published, the house with the red door and the lemon tree outside were in Braavos.  /thread, end of story. 

16 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The lemon tree may just be a metaphor for Dorne. But still doesn't explain Braavos and Sea Lord or the eviction and subsequent years.

The lemon tree is not a symbol of dorne. Lemons are a symbol of summer, happiness and youth and being carefree. Dany's memories of  the tree in dorne, Sansa's love of lemoncakes, these are young women who due to circumstance are forced to grow because of painful, horrible situations. 
Bravos is involved in the pact because GRRM wrote it in the books. That is why 

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11 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Really?

Yes, really 

11 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

 Dany's big house with the red door and the lemon tree appears majorly in GoT, and it can stand as Dany's desire for home above all else. But there's also a house with a red door that appears in one of Dany's visions in the House of Undying in CoK. It could be Dany's old home: she sees a barefooted little girl running towards a house with a red door. But she doesn't really recognize the girl as herself. And would she, the "little princess," be barefooted? Could this house with the red door have some other significance to Dany's story? 

what does this have to do with the house being in Tyrosh in an earlier draft of the story before it was published? 

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10 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The Original plot has Dany has the bad guy, a threat taking shape in the east. Now every thing in the books we've read so far (and the friggin show) has us sympathizing with Dany and generally assuming from book 2 that shed be hooking up with the Starks to destroy the Lannisters (who clearly sit on her throne) and help the Starks destroy the Others for a merry happy ending. Is that what every one really think is going on and is gonna happen? Dany is not a threat? and her story is that simple and linear? So essentially the books big twist are Ned dies, The Red Wedding, Hodor and the children obviously created the Others, and Jon Is child of Rhaegar and Lyanna (Not a big surprise since its said he raped her), is that it? The rest just minor mysteries such as little finger and the cats paw?

The original plot means nothing. What matters is what is published and sold. That is the only version that matters

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1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The lemon tree was an artifact of an earlier draft where Dany was raised in Tyrosh. nothing more 

Yes, but it is also a hint that her arc will end in bitterness and disappointment. 

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1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Why would Tyrosh support Doran and Viserys and then switch to Illyrio and Dany? Did Illyrio know about Tyrosh's involvement before or is this coincidence? 

Illyrio possibly wants Westeros for Aegon but Illyrio is a slaver. Braavos is against slavers. So Illyrio has to be against Braavos firstly. If he want's any Free Cities to support his endeavors in Westeros, its likely Slavery would play an economic part in this. Lys, Myr, Tyrosh, Volantis and Pentos is on the edge of Slavery. There's aspects of politics and economics going on around Dany that may have a part in what's going on. Plus the Magic. What's Braavos doing in response to a possible war over the Free Cities or Westeros? Is Old Town caught up in it? The Cinnamon Wind?

The lemon tree can even be discussed as not being in Braavos, could be in Dorne. That would greatly change the whole traveling the Free cities after being booted from Braavos bit. So what would be going on there then? If they were in Dorne, how and why are they in Essos now? Why are they not in Dorne? 

The lemon tree was not in Dorne. It was in Tyrosh. 

As to the Archon of Tyrosh being involved with the Prince of Dorne and a magister of Pentos, keep in mind that Archos can change. 

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1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Yes, but it is also a hint that her arc will end in bitterness and disappointment. 

Yes. There is much symbolism to the lemon, but none of it points to a conspiracy, dany not being dany or anything else nerds will come up with because they had read the books a million times in the six years between novels 

 

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Lemons represent bitterness. The lemon tree represents Dany's longing for a home. The contradiction in the lemon tree story shows that the House with the Red Door never existed, or is at best a composite memory. This is hinting that Dany will never find a home - she might think it is Westeros, but she will discover to her disappointment that it is just as alien as Essos.

Either that or an oversight by GRRM.

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I don't think the lemon tree is just a leftover. 

There's an SSM from an email exchange between GRRM and a fan about the lemon tree where said fan mentions that lemon trees shouldn't be able to grow in Braavos and asking if it points to future revelations about Dany's past and future. GRRM responded

Quote

 Very perceptive of you.

Yes it does point to...well, that would be telling.

I thought it could be important so I took a screenshot of the screenshot from the guy's email. Good thing or I would have had to waste precious crackpotting time hunting for the SSM so I could get the exact wording :D

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

As to the Archon of Tyrosh being involved with the Prince of Dorne and a magister of Pentos, keep in mind that Archons can change. 

:agree: This!  Archon is an elected position. It tends to rotate among the most wealthy/noble families of Tyrosh.

5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The Original plot has Dany has the bad guy, a threat taking shape in the east. Now every thing in the books we've read so far (and the friggin show) has us sympathizing with Dany and generally assuming from book 2 that shed be hooking up with the Starks to destroy the Lannisters (who clearly sit on her throne) and help the Starks destroy the Others for a merry happy ending. Is that what every one really think is going on and is gonna happen? Dany is not a threat? and her story is that simple and linear? So essentially the books big twist are Ned dies, The Red Wedding, Hodor and the children obviously created the Others, and Jon Is child of Rhaegar and Lyanna (Not a big surprise since its said he raped her), is that it? The rest just minor mysteries such as little finger and the cats paw?

The "original plot" was not the original plot. It was something GRRM threw together for the publishers because they want to know all kinds of things that haven't necessarily been worked out yet by the author of an epic series. Authors who outline and work strictly from their outlines never have this problem. GRRM does not work that way, so he had to come up with something to tell them. Some of what is in that summary is probably correct, but it should not be taken as remotely canon, because some if it will be baloney.

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3 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Yes. There is much symbolism to the lemon, but none of it points to a conspiracy, dany not being dany or anything else nerds will come up with because they had read the books a million times in the six years between novels 

Who you calling nerd?

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1 hour ago, Horse of Kent said:

Lemons represent bitterness. The lemon tree represents Dany's longing for a home. The contradiction in the lemon tree story shows that the House with the Red Door never existed, or is at best a composite memory. This is hinting that Dany will never find a home - she might think it is Westeros, but she will discover to her disappointment that it is just as alien as Essos.

Either that or an oversight by GRRM.

You might like this, or not. 

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1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The "original plot" was not the original plot. It was something GRRM threw together for the publishers because they want to know all kinds of things that haven't necessarily been worked out yet by the author of an epic series. Authors who outline and work strictly from their outlines never have this problem. GRRM does not work that way, so he had to come up with something to tell them. Some of what is in that summary is probably correct, but it should not be taken as remotely canon, because some if it will be baloney.

I am assuming you are referring to the 1993 letter. I agree that many character arcs and plot lines evolved from that "outline," but the one thing that seems to have remained is the basic structure of three main conflicts, the Stark-Lannister conflict, which evolved into the War of the Five Kings, a dance of dragons, which appears to be evolving into the Second Dance of the Dragons with Aegon as antagonist to Daenerys as protagonist, and the War for the Dawn, in which our special snowflake will restore some cosmic balance that seems necessary to resolve all high fantasies. 

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