AlaskanSandman

Braavos, Tyrosh, and Dorne, Lemons Tree's and a Red Door. Go.

118 posts in this topic

4 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I am assuming you are referring to the 1993 letter. I agree that many character arcs and plot lines evolved from that "outline," but the one thing that seems to have remained is the basic structure of three main conflicts, the Stark-Lannister conflict, which evolved into the War of the Five Kings, a dance of dragons, which appears to be evolving into the Second Dance of the Dragons with Aegon as antagonist to Daenerys as protagonist, and the War for the Dawn, in which our special snowflake will restore some cosmic balance that seems necessary to resolve all high fantasies. 

Yes indeed. Stark and Lannister evolved from York and Lancaster. That aspect was always going to be part of the story. The dragon dance and the issue with the Others of course were going to be in it. The bare bones are there, but the details are not necessarily accurate.Jaime claiming the throne? Doubtful. The Tyrion-Arya-Jon triangle? Also doubtful. Robb maiming Joffrey in battle? Maybe, if the 5 year gap hadn't been abandoned.

Wait, which one is the special snowflake today? :D

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27 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Who you calling nerd?

Good question. Personally, I prefer geek.

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7 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

she was born on DS, raised in Bravos until Darry died, and fled with his brother slowly selling the last of their royal possessions until they had nothing to pawn, then they were taken in by Fatty McFatterton, as was written in the final version of the books we love

Nom, it doesn't. We have examples of greenhouses in Winterfell that allow vegetables to grow in the dead of winter. The same would be available in a wealthy cosmopolitan city like Bravos. All of that adds up just fine.
As for being kicked out of Bravos, they weren't.  They were run out of their home by their servants when the man taking care of them died.

The house was never said to belong to the Sealord. Viserys took them to almost every free city begging to raise an army to retake his throne. Hence the "Beggar Prince" moniker

you are not looking at the words that are written. The house with the red door in Tyrosh was a relic from a previous draft.  GRRM makes mistakes. Like Renly's eye color or Jeyne's hips. It is why he has proofreaders now. As per the books that were published, the house with the red door and the lemon tree outside were in Braavos.  /thread, end of story. 

The lemon tree is not a symbol of dorne. Lemons are a symbol of summer, happiness and youth and being carefree. Dany's memories of  the tree in dorne, Sansa's love of lemoncakes, these are young women who due to circumstance are forced to grow because of painful, horrible situations. 
Bravos is involved in the pact because GRRM wrote it in the books. That is why 

You seem pretty absolute on everything and the meaning of any metaphors. So how the book end?

If they slowly sold off they're possession after being booted, then what did the servants rob them of?

Since they're supposedly in Braavos, they're servants and not slaves. So no indication or reason for them to really act that way. If it was Darry's house, then where in Dorne with all the descriptions that we have would it be? Most people think that's why its the Sea Lords House. If it's the Sea Lords House though, it makes no sense why the servants would treat guest in such a way. Glass garden at Winterfell makes sense given they're Royals. The average bloke in Braavos shouldn't have them.

I read what you said, i just dont agree. It happens some times. It may be, but as others here pointed out, a mistake he repeated up till book 5? 

Since the only place in Westeros that has Lemons in Dorne, it may be a metaphor for Dorne. Untill the author says other wise, idk, not my words for me to say with absolute conviction. 

And ok....why are you here then? Since your not offering any new insight. Just curious

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8 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The original plot means nothing. What matters is what is published and sold. That is the only version that matters

I mostly agree. Since he brought it up though i like to play Devil's Advocate. Again, my goal here is to discuss possibilities, even fringe ones. Long as we're looking at things and not just going. Oh well, George says dragons hatched so dragons hatched. End of story. Give something as to a reason the dragons hatched. (Exp.) Ill argue quaithe is secretly working with the Faceless men and Dorne if some one has a thought. We can call bullshit after, but in the mean time, some one may have an interesting thought worth gleaning. 

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8 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Yes, really 

what does this have to do with the house being in Tyrosh in an earlier draft of the story before it was published? 

Where are you getting all of this earlier draft info from?? A link or something maybe helpful, otherwise it's mostly nothing. 

And as you said any ways, nothing matters other than what was published. So all of that's irrelevant anyways. If it was a mistake, why repeat the same stupid mistake 5 books deep? If it had just been the first book then ok, but 5 books... really? Martin has spent yearssss trying to make his books the best he can, just to purposely keep mention a relic from old drafts that has no purpose in the published text? 

 

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7 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The lemon tree was not in Dorne. It was in Tyrosh. 

As to the Archon of Tyrosh being involved with the Prince of Dorne and a magister of Pentos, keep in mind that Archos can change. 

So whats your thoughts on Braavos and the Sea Lord bit then? Doran lying? Ive contemplated Tyrosh, as something about Daario must make her feel comfortable as it's the only lover she's taken thus far of her own accord. And Daario is from Tyrosh. Jorah also sold to slavers from Tyrosh which catches the eye too. 

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5 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Yes. There is much symbolism to the lemon, but none of it points to a conspiracy, dany not being dany or anything else nerds will come up with because they had read the books a million times in the six years between novels 

 

Say's the nerd on the forum arguing against said people :D haha If your here, you've got a nerd side to you, sorry. We all do. 

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4 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

Lemons represent bitterness. The lemon tree represents Dany's longing for a home. The contradiction in the lemon tree story shows that the House with the Red Door never existed, or is at best a composite memory. This is hinting that Dany will never find a home - she might think it is Westeros, but she will discover to her disappointment that it is just as alien as Essos.

Either that or an oversight by GRRM.

I like the idea that the House never existed and that it means something else

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3 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I don't think the lemon tree is just a leftover. 

There's an SSM from an email exchange between GRRM and a fan about the lemon tree where said fan mentions that lemon trees shouldn't be able to grow in Braavos and asking if it points to future revelations about Dany's past and future. GRRM responded

I thought it could be important so I took a screenshot of the screenshot from the guy's email. Good thing or I would have had to waste precious crackpotting time hunting for the SSM so I could get the exact wording :D

:agree: This!  Archon is an elected position. It tends to rotate among the most wealthy/noble families of Tyrosh.

The "original plot" was not the original plot. It was something GRRM threw together for the publishers because they want to know all kinds of things that haven't necessarily been worked out yet by the author of an epic series. Authors who outline and work strictly from their outlines never have this problem. GRRM does not work that way, so he had to come up with something to tell them. Some of what is in that summary is probably correct, but it should not be taken as remotely canon, because some if it will be baloney.

About the email, exactly, GRRM has brought fan attention to it. Calling fans nerds or stupid for it is just stupid. 

Yes the Archon is elected. There's isn't a yearly election though if i recall. So it may be for life or untill some one ends it and takes it. Maybe its nothing, but maybe it's something. Im asking people to think and come up with what it could be, not with what it isn't. 

Read above comment. And if the Original Plot you guys keep talking about, is the 3 page outline he gave his publishers after he completed the first 13 chapters? yea that one, doesn't mention anything about Tyrosh or Lemon trees or any of that. And i agree, people should hold to that outline like they should a fart

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2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

You might like this, or not. 

Im gonna have to read that after im done with all these responses and a break lol

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2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I am assuming you are referring to the 1993 letter. I agree that many character arcs and plot lines evolved from that "outline," but the one thing that seems to have remained is the basic structure of three main conflicts, the Stark-Lannister conflict, which evolved into the War of the Five Kings, a dance of dragons, which appears to be evolving into the Second Dance of the Dragons with Aegon as antagonist to Daenerys as protagonist, and the War for the Dawn, in which our special snowflake will restore some cosmic balance that seems necessary to resolve all high fantasies. 

"Our special snowflake" LOL!!!! too funny

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2 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Good question. Personally, I prefer geek.

There's not a special word yet like Trekies? 

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7 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 And i agree, people should hold to that outline like they should a fart

Truest words spoken in 2017... and maybe 2018 if you repeat them on January 1.

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2 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Yes indeed. Stark and Lannister evolved from York and Lancaster. That aspect was always going to be part of the story. The dragon dance and the issue with the Others of course were going to be in it. The bare bones are there, but the details are not necessarily accurate.Jaime claiming the throne? Doubtful. The Tyrion-Arya-Jon triangle? Also doubtful. Robb maiming Joffrey in battle? Maybe, if the 5 year gap hadn't been abandoned.

Wait, which one is the special snowflake today? :D

There can be only one! 

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We definitely don't know for sure that the marriage pact was real. Based on the evidence it has a high chance of being fake.

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Never mind. 

 

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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44 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So whats your thoughts on Braavos and the Sea Lord bit then? Doran lying? Ive contemplated Tyrosh, as something about Daario must make her feel comfortable as it's the only lover she's taken thus far of her own accord. And Daario is from Tyrosh. Jorah also sold to slavers from Tyrosh which catches the eye too. 

And on that note, Jorah was probably set up. After all, why the heck would a Tyroshi slaver make a trip all the way to Bear Island, a far away place where slavery is illegal? And of course Jorah got caught and went into exile and ended up being a very convenient spy for Varys/Illyrio. So that piece of info taken together with the brother of the Archon hanging out with Illyrio indicates Illyrio/Varys probably having some support from at least one political faction in Tyrosh.

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35 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

There's not a special word yet like Trekies? 

There's no special word for much larger fandoms—DC comics, Star Wars, that TV show Game of Thrones

Also, it's very hard to pronounce the word "Asoiafians", but I suppose GRRbils might work.

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2 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

And on that note, Jorah was probably set up. After all, why the heck would a Tyroshi slaver make a trip all the way to Bear Island, a far away place where slavery is illegal? And of course Jorah got caught and went into exile and ended up being a very convenient spy for Varys/Illyrio. So that piece of info taken together with the brother of the Archon hanging out with Illyrio indicates Illyrio/Varys probably having some support from at least one political faction in Tyrosh.

When did Jorah go into exile? May be a possible marker to when Varys and Illyrio became aware of Dany and or began to involve her in their plans.

Im debating on Tyrosh if they're just playing both sides or just switched. Is the Tyroshi girl no longer in Dorne perhaps. How old was Arianne at that time? I dont remember. Ill have to check. 

 

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2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Truest words spoken in 2017... and maybe 2018 if you repeat them on January 1.

Hahahaha We'll start a thread just for it 

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