AlaskanSandman

Braavos, Tyrosh, and Dorne, Lemons Tree's and a Red Door. Go.

118 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, falcotron said:

There's no special word for much larger fandoms—DC comics, Star Wars, that TV show Game of Thrones

Also, it's very hard to pronounce the word "Asoiafians", but I suppose GRRbils might work.

Throne-ians? hahah i feel like the nerd numbers are strong enough to warrant some name

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As far as Illyrio. Most suspect him of wanting a Blackfyre restoration and for them to usurp the crown. Be it known, or unknown of who Aegon is. Yet what does Illyrio gain from it? Is it just because his wife may have been a Blackfyre, so he's doing it all for that? And Varys feels that indebted as a boy to do alllll this? Maybe. Varys though possibly came out in like 278Ac after Duskendale, well before Aegon was born. Which makes me pause unless Aegons age was fudged that much by them. Illyrio is also a slave trader in a city that doesn't support slavery and may have ambitions there grander than just Aegon sitting in Westeros. Maybe he plans for control of both for Aegon? Illyrio is old and his fat cheese monger buns cant be long for this world. 

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15 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Throne-ians? hahah i feel like the nerd numbers are strong enough to warrant some name

That would have to be fans of some show on HBO, not fans of this book series.

Kind of like a fan of the Lord of the Rings and related novels is a "Tolkiendil", while a fan of the Peter Jackson movies is a "Ringer", and a fan of the animated 1970s movie is a "Ralph Bakshi's mom".

Or how fans of the Doctor Who TV series are "Whovians", while fans of the Doctor Who Virgin New Adventures novels are "virgins".

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1 minute ago, falcotron said:

That would have to be fans of some show on HBO, not fans of this book series.

Kind of like a fan of the Lord of the Rings and related novels is a "Tolkiendil", while a fan of the Peter Jackson movies is a "Ringer", and a fan of the animated 1970s movie is a "Ralph Bakshi's mom".

Or how fans of the Doctor Who TV series are "Whovians", while fans of the Doctor Who Virgin New Adventures novels are "virgins".

Great, that just makes it harder hahaha hmmmm songs.. Little birds? No that sounds terrible lol Crows? Virgin is part of the title for Doctor who book. Thones is the first book but i kinda like Martin's Crows. We need a thread for this hahah

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3 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

And on that note, Jorah was probably set up. After all, why the heck would a Tyroshi slaver make a trip all the way to Bear Island, a far away place where slavery is illegal? And of course Jorah got caught and went into exile and ended up being a very convenient spy for Varys/Illyrio. So that piece of info taken together with the brother of the Archon hanging out with Illyrio indicates Illyrio/Varys probably having some support from at least one political faction in Tyrosh.

Ok, so looking at the dates and events it seems like this. 

284ac-Danny born, flight from Dragonstone to Braavos

285-286Ac Marriage pact made based on numbers given in the introduction post.

?- Arriane being sent to Tyrosh to be cupbearer. Ill get back to this.

289Ac- Willem Darry supposedly dies and Danny and Viserys are robbed before being put out, but left their mothers crown at least.

             Now, this same year is the Greyjoy Rebellion, a Tourney is held for the victory of it and Jorah purposes to Lynesse that same night. I assume the marriage happened with in the year so maybe 289-290Ac they wed? 

             Arriane going to Tyrosh i list before Darry's death as Doran seems to have lost contact with them after. 

             Jorah spends at least half a year going broke in Tyrosh and a Year in exile in Volantis meaning it's at leassst 291-292Ac about this time. 

So his exile is off by some years, butttt his marriage is right on the button. It's also mentioned he never won again suggesting something may have been up. He won by breaking 9 lances against Jamie to no avail so Robert just gave it to Jorah. Maybe nothing but it's interesting to say the least.

Note- Sorry to edit again. Just saw in the books Daenerys I ACOK Jorah mentions they were wed in Lannisport right there so they wed for sure 289AC and with in a fortnight she was unhappy having arrived to Bear Island. So Jorah may have gone broke within that first year.

Edited by AlaskanSandman
My bad rushed spelling

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3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

When did Jorah go into exile? May be a possible marker to when Varys and Illyrio became aware of Dany and or began to involve her in their plans.

Im debating on Tyrosh if they're just playing both sides or just switched. Is the Tyroshi girl no longer in Dorne perhaps. How old was Arianne at that time? I dont remember. Ill have to check. 

 

I suspect Varys and Illyrio were watching Viserys and later his sister very closely from the moment he left King's Landing. 

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3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

As far as Illyrio. Most suspect him of wanting a Blackfyre restoration and for them to usurp the crown. Be it known, or unknown of who Aegon is. Yet what does Illyrio gain from it? Is it just because his wife may have been a Blackfyre, so he's doing it all for that? And Varys feels that indebted as a boy to do alllll this? Maybe. Varys though possibly came out in like 278Ac after Duskendale, well before Aegon was born. Which makes me pause unless Aegons age was fudged that much by them. Illyrio is also a slave trader in a city that doesn't support slavery and may have ambitions there grander than just Aegon sitting in Westeros. Maybe he plans for control of both for Aegon? Illyrio is old and his fat cheese monger buns cant be long for this world. 

Or maybe Illyrio is a descendant of Daemon Blackfyre through Calla and Bittersteel? 

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11 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I don't think the lemon tree is just a leftover. 

There's an SSM from an email exchange between GRRM and a fan about the lemon tree where said fan mentions that lemon trees shouldn't be able to grow in Braavos and asking if it points to future revelations about Dany's past and future. GRRM responded

This is really interesting. Why don't lemon trees grow in Braavos? It's quite clear that the big house with the red door and the lemon tree are major landmarks. It''s possible GRRM wanted these very obvious landmarks because he wanted Dany, or the reader, to recognize the place later. Some people seem to take the lemons as a metaphor for bitterness. When I read the story, I thought the lemons simply represented simplicity and nostalgia. Major nostalgia. The lemon tree must have been quite grand for Dany to remember it cause she was like 7 or 8 at the time. 

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What I've never got about the idea that the house with the red door not being in Braavos is how Dany could possibly be mistaken.

For her to be wrong, everyone must have been in on the lie. Viserys, Darry, the servants.... And even then, Dany must have never been allowed out of the grounds of the house, because it would be very difficult to keep the secret if she went out in public. People would refer to the city as Tyrosh or wherever the theory says she was, rather than Braavos. And now she's old enough, if she had been walking the streets of not-Braavos, she would have realised by now that the city she remembers has no canals, no Titan, and significant linguistic and architectural differences. So if she wasn't in Braavos, she must have barely seen or heard the city she really was in.

We also have to ask why everyone would lie. The only explanation I can think of is to avoid implicating important people as Targaryen sympathisers if Dany were ever caught and questioned. It seems unlikely anyone would consider that such a concern that they would develop such a long term lie that she must continue to believe even at 13.

Even if you believe Dany was simply mistaken and not lied to by everyone while in the house, it's incredibly unlikely that her belief that she was in Braavos has never come up since, and Viserys has never corrected her.

I get that there are clues that to us, as readers familiar with tropes and clues, might suggest she was mistaken about being in Braavos. But I think before we get to the meta arguments there needs to be a plausible in-universe alternative to Dany's belief that the red door and the lemon tree were in Braavos. The references to a lack of trees and lemons in Braavos could be very interesting hints if there was a plausible reason for Dany to be mistaken, but I just can't see one. Otherwise, I think we just have to accept that the one character that said there are no lemons wasn't describing a law of nature but a general trend.

16 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Even then, whats the final? Dorne? Braavos? Either way it contradict what information we have on some level. Even if she was where she thinks, it doesn't add up. Why would they be kicked out of Braavos and Sea Lords Mance just cause Darry died?

If it was Tyrosh, why does she think Braavos. Why is Braavos still involved in the pact? 

The lemon tree may just be a metaphor for Dorne. But still doesn't explain Braavos and Sea Lord or the eviction and subsequent years.

She doesn't need to have stayed in the Sea Lord's home necessarily. That's just one explanation someone came up with to create a link with his witnessing of the marriage pact with Dorne. I don't see much reason for that assumption, though.

15 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Yes, but it is also a hint that her arc will end in bitterness and disappointment. 

 

11 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

Lemons represent bitterness. The lemon tree represents Dany's longing for a home. The contradiction in the lemon tree story shows that the House with the Red Door never existed, or is at best a composite memory. This is hinting that Dany will never find a home - she might think it is Westeros, but she will discover to her disappointment that it is just as alien as Essos.

Either that or an oversight by GRRM.

Call this a nitpick if you will, but the most obvious taste of lemons is sour, not bitter. Besides, something as simple as the presence of a lemon tree isn't strong enough evidence for these conclusions, especially since most people who mention lemons in the story like them (especially in cake form) so the link to anything negative just isn't there.

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I went back here. So, going forward...

On 9/7/2017 at 3:44 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

The next thing we know for sure is in 287 or 288? Dany and Viserys are with Illyrio in his Mance at Pentos and have been staying there for 6 months according to Dany.

I'm thinking you made a typo there? Illyrio began hosting the Targlings in Pentos in 297. 

On 9/7/2017 at 3:44 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Though Illyrio speaks to Tyrion of years of planning being ruined when the night before the wedding Viserys tries to sneak in and take her maiden head as if he cant wed her then he'll at least take that.

The planning was certainly there. You noted what Illyrio told Tyrion but there was also this...

Quote

"Magister Illyrio has protected me in the past. Strong Belwas says that he wept when he heard my brother was dead."

"Yes," said Mormont, "but did he weep for Viserys, or for the plans he had made with him?"

Daenerys I, Storm 8

And this...

Quote

"Which plan?" said Tristan Rivers. "The fat man's plan? The one that changes every time the moon turns? First Viserys Targaryen was to join us with fifty thousand Dothraki screamers at his back. Then the Beggar King was dead, and it was to be the sister, a pliable young child queen who was on her way to Pentos with three new-hatched dragons. Instead the girl turns up on Slaver's Bay and leaves a string of burning cities in her wake, and the fat man decides we should meet her by Volantis. Now that plan is in ruins as well.

The Lost Lord, Dance 24

On 9/7/2017 at 3:44 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Most interesting given Illyrio's possible Blackfyre connection, and his seemingly disregard for Dany, he gives Dany 3 dragons eggs worth alottttt of money. 

Yes, the three egg MacGuffins...

Quote

"Dragon's eggs, from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai," said Magister Illyrio. "The eons have turned them to stone, yet still they burn bright with beauty. 

Daenerys II, Game 11

We are told expressly that these three dragon’s eggs are ancient, petrified eggs from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai, and we recall that Illyrio is a trader in dragonbone with a trading network that stretches to the fabled lands beside the Jade Sea. And Daenerys's arc through Game syncs up with what the author shows the reader through Bran's coma vision inspired by Bloodraven...

Quote

He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the JadeSea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

Bran III, Game 17

The author is foreshadowing the hatching of the dragons. Also note that the larger passage from Bran III, Game 17 hints at the three main conflicts he identified in his 1993 letter: the storm into which Catelyn was heading and the shadows looming over House Stark, the dragons stirring beneath the sunrise, and the heart of winter. 

Quote

"I shall treasure them always." Dany had heard tales of such eggs, but she had never seen one, nor thought to see one. It was a truly magnificent gift, though she knew that Illyrio could afford to be lavish. He had collected a fortune in horses and slaves for his part in selling her to Khal Drogo.

Daenerys II, Game 11

Here we learn that the three dragon’s eggs are worth the fortune in horses and slaves that Illyrio collected from Drogo for brokering the marriage pact. Does this mean that Illyrio gave Daenerys to Drogo, so Drogo gave Illyrio a fortune in horses and slaves? If so, then Drogo would not “owe” Viserys a crown, would he? On the other hand, should we believe that Daenerys’s property was, in fact, the property of her husband and khal, and that by giving Daenerys such “a truly magnificent gift,” that Illyrio had upset the gift-giving balance back in his favor? Recall that Daenerys was expected to give the bride gifts from Drogo's bloodriders to her husband. 

Keep in mind this could be nothing more than a plot device. In his 1993 letter, outlining his earliest concept of A Song of Ice and Fire, we see that The George initially intended to have Daenerys stumble upon a nest of petrified dragon’s eggs on the edge of the Dothraki Sea. 

On 9/7/2017 at 3:44 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Now from here a few weird things happen. Long and short of it is that Illyrio seems to trick Viserys into going with Dany by telling him he'd be better off to stay, while knowing how anxious Viserys is for his army. Either way, while out with them, it is hell for Viserys. Though he does seem to be lead on by Jorah. Even getting drunk before his death when he supposedly has no money. Then Jorah magnifies the situation in the tent rather than doing what Dany says and defusing it.

On the way to Vaes Dothrak, Daenerys recalls an important scene involving Illyrio and her brother...

Quote

Her brother was miserable out here. He ought never have come. Magister Illyrio had urged him to wait in Pentos, had offered him the hospitality of his manse, but Viserys would have none of it. He would stay with Drogo until the debt had been paid, until he had the crown he had been promised. "And if he tries to cheat me, he will learn to his sorrow what it means to wake the dragon," Viserys had vowed, laying a hand on his borrowed sword. Illyrio had blinked at that and wished him good fortune. 

Daenerys III, Game 23

So, Illyrio wanted Viserys to remain in Pentos. I do not subscribe to the reverse psychology theory, which posits that Illyrio wanted Viserys to go off and die in the Dothraki Sea, so he told him to stay in Pentos. That’s cockamamie to my mind. Illyrio’s blink suggests that he was surprised by Viserys’s intention to go with Drogo. Illyrio clearly expected Viserys to remain in Pentos, where Illyrio could ply him with Lysene bed slaves and Arbor gold.

But here is an interesting question: If Viserys had remained in Pentos, would Jorah have gone with Daenerys? He swore his sword to Viserys after all. I suspect that The George did not work this out completely. We know that Daenerys is off to become the Mother of Dragons and the head of a motely host of Dothraki, unsullied, and freedmen, as well as a collection of sellswords, and possibly even Victarion’s Ironmen. And we know that The George, against Illyrio’s wishes, wanted Viserys to get his molten crown in Vaes Dothrak. And, in that way, The George would have Jorah go with Drogo, eventually siding with Daenerys, but keeping tabs on her for Illyrio until they reach Qarth. 

On 9/7/2017 at 3:44 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

This whole time Jorah keeps telling Dany about Asshai, and after Drogos death, suggesting they go there for some reason. 

There is more speculation and discussion about Illyrio/Varys/Jorah/Daenerys/Asshai in these forums than there is in Game/Clash/Storm. When Jorah learned that Drogo was as good as dead his first thought was to avoid the Dothraki Sea, where they would be hunted and taken captive, and to make for a port to find passage, to Pentos. It wasn't until after Daenerys smothered Drogo and began erecting his pyre, believing she meant to throw herself on it as well, that Jorah suggested they go off together. But even then, after he swore to serve her, he was thinking about returning her to Pentos. After arriving in Qarth, we see Jorah’s counsel to Daenerys...

Quote

"I would be glad to leave this city, if truth be told," the knight said when she was done. "But not for Asshai." 

Daenerys III, Clash 40,

So, Jorah is definitely not steering Daenerys to Asshai on behalf of Illyrio. But we also see that Jorah no longer appears to be working as Illyrio's agent as he challenges Daenerys's assumption that Illyrio is her friend. In Daenerys I, Storm 8, Jorah suggests that they stop at Astapor to buy a small army of Unsullied to avoid arriving in Pentos into Illyrio's power. To buy the slave soldiers, Jorah persuades Daenerys to offer Illyrio's goods and to command Illyrio's agents to do her bidding. Jorah then kisses her and proposes to her. Although Jorah's infatuation with Daenerys had been hinted at after Drogo's death, we can see why he has been acting so possessively toward her, and why he has stopped advising her to return to Pentos. 

On 9/7/2017 at 3:44 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Now up to Drogo's death there is the assassination attempt sent by the small council. Was this assassin supposed to succeed? Jorah receives a pardon but then saves Dany. Illyrio tells Tryion he expected Dany to die in the Dothraki Sea. Was this when. If so, what was supposed to happen with his dragon eggs? Jorah just returns the eggs? Or was Jorah to take them to Asshai? 

In Arya III, Game 32, we see Illyrio, incognito, one more time before we meet him again, much later, with Tyrion in Dance. Varys warns Illyrio that Houses Stark and Lannister will be at war soon. Illyrio says it is too soon for war, and that Varys must delay. Varys says he will try, but urges Illyrio accelerate his plan. 

In the very next chapter, we learn that Jorah has informed Varys, presumably through Illyrio, that Daenerys is pregnant, and, not only does Varys inform king and council that Daenerys is pregnant, which could be explained by Varys needing to maintain trust, but here we see Varys encourage the king to attempt to assassinate her. 

Quote

“Kinder,” Varys said. “Oh, well and truly spoken, Grand Maester. It is so true. Should the gods in their caprice grant Daenerys Targaryen a son, the realm must bleed.” 

Eddard VIII, Game 33

What is the reader to make of this? This could simply be Varys playing yes-man. Or this could be Varys setting up a Rube Goldberg plot to provoke Drogo. With hindsight, we might think Varys would not want a challenger to his preferred claimant, Aegon, but then Varys would not have prevented the assassination. Given that Varys was so concerned about Drogo bestirring himself soon, it seems most likely that Varys was attempting to provoke Drogo into action. Still it seems awfully risky. If Varys had not been able to foil the assassination attempt against Daenerys, Drogo might not have felt inclined to support Illyrio's ulterior motive any longer. Moreover, we know Drogo would have been killed as well given the way the assassination attempt unfolded, and if that happened, then all of the planning with the Targlings would have been for naught. Varys goes so far as to suggest the method that is apparently used by the wineseller...

Quote

He stroked a powdered cheek. “Now, poison … the tears of Lys, let us say. Khal Drogo need never know it was not a natural death."

Eddard VIII, Game 33

As the Targlings enter Vaes Dothrak, Jorah expands our understanding of Dothraki gift-giving...

Quote

Ser Jorah grunted. “Yes, Khaleesi, but … the Dothraki look on these things differently than we do in the west. I have told him as much, as Illyrio told him, but your brother does not listen. The horselords are no traders. Viserys thinks he sold you, and now he wants his price. Yet Khal Drogo would say he had you as a gift. He will give Viserys a gift in return, yes … in his own time. You do not demand a gift, not of a khal. You do not demand anything of a khal."

Daenerys IV, Game 36

This seems to reinforce the idea that Varys and Illyrio need to provoke Drogo into action since, even if the gift giving balance is in Illyrio’s favor, he cannot compel Drogo to act as soon as he might wish. 

As the Dothraki capture slaves from the Lhazareen, we see that the assassination plot was almost certainly designed to provoke Drogo into invading Westeros since Jorah tells Daenerys...

Quote

"I've told the khal he ought to make for Meereen," Ser Jorah said. "They'll pay a better price than he'd get from a slaving caravan. Illyrio writes that they had a plague last year, so the brothels are paying double for healthy young girls, and triple for boys under ten. If enough children survive the journey, the gold will buy us all the ships we need, and hire men to sail them." 

Daenerys VII, Game 61

I doubt Illyrio included that tidbit in his letter as gossip or idle chit-chat. 

On 9/7/2017 at 3:44 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Later Drogo dies and possibly due to Mirri Maz Dur, or because Drogo interfered with her healing poultice and Jorah brought a birthing Dany into the tent when Mirri said no one must enter. So was Mirri helping or hurting? Mirri mentions training with Marwyn who we later learn has Alleras/Sarella, daughter of Oberyn with him. Suggesting a connection back to Dorne and House Martell. Then when Dany burns her along with the eggs and such, Mirri begins singing something. Was it a spell to protect Dany from the fire? or a spell to help hatch the eggs? Here forward though, Jorah never mentions Asshai again. 

Jorah guides Dany to Qarth where Illyrio gets word of her and her dragons, sending ships to bring her back to Pentos. Jorah advises against it with out an army at her back suggesting he'w aware of Illyrio. Illyrio also send Belwas, and Barristan some how. 

I suspect that Mirri Maz Duur was protecting her people and seeking vengence for the wrongs done to them by the Dothraki. (http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/107265-were-khal-drogo-and-and-his-unborn-son-offerings-for-the-great-shepherd/

On 9/7/2017 at 3:44 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Now from here Dany goes to Mereen to get her army and we learn that Illyrio has another supposed Targaryen he's been supporting for years. Which begs the question why he wasn't helping Dany and Viserys sooner.

Actually, we have known this all along. Right off the bat, the author suggested to the reader that the Targlings should not trust Illyrio, and that the character had some ulterior motive. Viserys believes that Illyrio is aiding and abetting Viserys's for profit, believing that Illyrio expects to be rewarded when he comes into his throne, but Daenerys’s misgivings, as well as the fact that they were left to run from city to city for several years before Illyrio began to succor them, suggests right away to the reader that Illyrio’s motives should be questioned. This quote is most telling...

Quote

Dany could smell the stench of Illyrio's pallid flesh through his heavy perfumes.

Daenerys I, Game 3

When Viserys talks about making good his claim to the Iron Throne, he declares that he will kill Robert Baratheon himself, to which Illyrio replies, “That would be most fitting," but Daenerys notices “the smallest hint of a smile playing around his full lips,” which Viserys fails to notice. And Illyrio appears to feed into Viserys’s paranoia about being pursued by assassins sent by Robert Baratheon, which we learn just nine chapters later is a false belief. 

At then end of Storm, the reader should conclude that they are working to install a claimant other than one of the Targlings on the Iron Throne, but we can only guess at who that other claimant might be. Based on what we know before The Sworn Sword and Feast, that claimant would likely be Rhaegar's son Aegon, or perhaps an imposter posing as Rhaegar's son. Given that Aerion was introduced as the antagonist in The Hedge Knight, which was published before Clash, the next most likely possibility at this point is a descendant of Aerion's son, who, we learn in Jon I, Clash 6, was passed over for Aegon the Unlikely. A descendant of Rhaenrya Targaryen was another possibility, but she was only mentioned once. Finally, we have to consider a descendant of Daemon Blackfyre since Catelyn told us that the Blackfyre "pretenders" troubled the Targaryens for five generations, but she also suggested they were wiped out a generation or two earlier. 

On 9/7/2017 at 3:44 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Suspicion surrounds Aegon though as a possible Blackfyre. Though Varys claims to Kevan that he's real. If he's not real, it could suggest that Illyrios years of planning with Varys involved putting Dany and Viserys out of the House with the Red Door and drive fear into them thinking that they're being hunted?

Now Illyrio had the Archon of Tyrosh's brother at the Wedding for Drogo and Dany. So is Tyrosh switching sides? Cause there seems to be 2 sides, the Martells and Dorne and Illyrio and Varys. Tyrosh seems to have been with Dorne for some time but now seem to be with Illyrio. Is this all tied to the war between the Free Cities? Could the involvement of Braavos and the Sea Lords seeming death and Tyrosh's flipping alliances all tied to the War with the Free Cities? 

These are most of the main points i could think of with out going in depth on the Blackfyre conspiracy and background, assuming most know the history and theories there. Interested in any thoughts on what may be happening here. :)

As to the Archon of Tyrosh, keep in mind that Archons change. As to The Blackfyre, the suspicion is there because of the build up, and looking back through the early books now, we can find many possible hints

 

 

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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2 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

This is really interesting. Why don't lemon trees grow in Braavos? It's quite clear that the big house with the red door and the lemon tree are major landmarks. It''s possible GRRM wanted these very obvious landmarks because he wanted Dany, or the reader, to recognize the place later. Some people seem to take the lemons as a metaphor for bitterness. When I read the story, I thought the lemons simply represented simplicity and nostalgia. Major nostalgia. The lemon tree must have been quite grand for Dany to remember it cause she was like 7 or 8 at the time. 

And @Ser Petyr Parker:

When we see lemons, things don't usually end well... In Sansa I, Game 15, she was looking forward to lemon cakes in the queen's wheelhouse, but her day ended with her prince's loathing and contempt. Samwell's early childhood went from snitching lemon cakes to contempt, abuse, and banishment by his father. In Sansa II, Game 29, Sansa went from enjoying lemon cakes with Joffrey at the feast following the first day of jousting to being escorted back to her cell by the Hound. In Sansa III, Game 44, Sansa and Jeyne (poor Jeyne) looked for lemon cakes in the kitchen, but at the end of the chapter learned her father was sending back to Winterfell. Sansa shared lemon cakes with the Tyrells before being forced to wed the imp. On the morning Sansa was forced to marry the imp, along with the new gown, Cersei sent her favorite scents for Sansa's use too. Of course, "Sansa chose a sharp sweet fragrance with a hint of lemon in it under the smell of flowers." 

In Winds,

Spoiler

Lord Nestor’s cooks prepare a lemon cake in the shape of the Giant’s Lance, twelve feet tall and adorned with an Eyrie made of sugar, all for Alayne. "The cake had required every lemon in the Vale, but Petyr had promised that he would send to Dorne for more." 

Run, Sansa! Run! 

Before donning the ugly little girl's face, the kindly man gave a girl a drink so tart it was like biting into lemon. That made "no one" think of Arya's sister, and Sansa's fondness for lemon cakes. In Arya V, Game 65, Arya offered to trade a fat pigeon for a lemon, but ened up at her father's execution. Jeor Mormont drank lemon in his beer every day. He still had his own teeth but his men mutinied and murdered him. At Bitterbridge, Renly's bannermen feasted on lemon cakes. Of course, Renly's campaign ened shortly thereafter. As Davos sailed with Stannis's fleet into Blackwater Bay, he observed Aegon's High Hill, dark against a lemon sky. That's an odd description for a sky, no? As Davos turned downstream, the mouth of the Blackwater Rush had turned into the mouth of hell.

At Edmure's wedding feast Catelyn noted that Ryman Frey had bathed in lemon water but failed to mask his sour sweat, and that Roose smelled sweeter but no more pleasant. The Feast did not end on a happy note. At Joffrey's wedding feast Tyrion had a slice of pigeon pie covered with a spoon of lemon cream. A few paragraphs later Tyrion stood accused of regicide. That was the last of 18 dishes served to Joffrey just before he choked. Cersei drank lemon water so tart she had to spit it out the morning she learned that Tyrion had murdered their father. When Cersei entered Maggy the Frog's tent, one of the eastern scents she smelled was lemongrass. Before the night was done Cersei would learn that Melara had a crush on Jaime, and Melara would die at the bottom of a well. 

Lem Lemoncloak just reeks of bitterness and disappointment, and Doran's Water Gardens smell of lemons and blood oranges. Anybody think Dorne is going end up happy with their blood and fire? In The Queenmaker, Arianne noticed that Darkstar preferred lemon water to summer wine, and she served lemonsweet to Myrcella before Darkstar cut off Myrcella's ear amidst lemon orchards watered by a spider's web of old canals. Arianne’s first meal while locked in the tower included kind roasted with lemon. And the soup at the feast to welcome Gregor's head was made with eggs and lemons. 

Stannis enjoys boiled eggs and lemon water for breakfast, and, well, I think we all know his end will be bitter and disappointing. In Jon IV, Dance 17, Stannis offers lemon water to Jon. Wisely, Jon refuses. Stannis drinks more.

Just after Tyrion plants the notion of sailing to Westeros without Daenerys in the noble lad's head, the merry band aboard the Shy Maid enjoy a pike with lemon juice, and they learn that Daenerys hasn't left Meereen. Aegon fatefully decides to go west insteaed of east. Anybody think Aegon will win the dance? And Tyrion decides to go whoring after dinner, and meets his new buddy Jorah. Tyrion suspected Yezzan was drinking lemon water as the yellow whale bid on him and Penny. Tyrion served Nurse lemonsweet with the mushrooms from Illyrio's garden.The Green Grace accepted a goblet of sweeetened lemon juice from the Queen's hand, just before infected corpses started flying over the walls. Oh, and guess what kind of trees Daenerys has in her terrace garden in Meereen?

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

And @Ser Petyr Parker:

When we see lemons, things don't usually end well... 

I've seen that post. It's interesting but I do think it's a bit of a stretch. Lemon cakes, unlike lemon trees, are sweet. It's important to note that the lemon tree is something in Dany's past that she remembers. Her past is, of course, bitter. The closest thing she has to a parent figure, Ser Willem Darry, dies in that red door house, and she and Viserys also gets kicked out and becomes officially homeless. All that bitterness has already happened, so I don't know if the lemon tree has any bearing on the end story arc for Dany. 

I've read that "lemon" was also sort of a slang form to call someone a simpleton or a gullible fool. That description doesn't fit Dany, but it perfectly fits Viserys. Perhaps he was the bitterness in her past that she no longer needs to deal with. 

GRRM has said that the end of the story is going to be bittersweet, like LOTR (the Shire being gone and all). So maybe the end of the story for Dany is the same as well. She accomplishes something, but it's not probably what she intended when she started out. We can already say that her life is definitely not going to turn out the way she thought it would. 

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39 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

I've seen that post. It's interesting but I do think it's a bit of a stretch. Lemon cakes, unlike lemon trees, are sweet. It's important to note that the lemon tree is something in Dany's past that she remembers. Her past is, of course, bitter. The closest thing she has to a parent figure, Ser Willem Darry, dies in that red door house, and she and Viserys also gets kicked out and becomes officially homeless. All that bitterness has already happened, so I don't know if the lemon tree has any bearing on the end story arc for Dany. 

I've read that "lemon" was also sort of a slang form to call someone a simpleton or a gullible fool. That description doesn't fit Dany, but it perfectly fits Viserys. Perhaps he was the bitterness in her past that she no longer needs to deal with. 

GRRM has said that the end of the story is going to be bittersweet, like LOTR (the Shire being gone and all). So maybe the end of the story for Dany is the same as well. She accomplishes something, but it's not probably what she intended when she started out. We can already say that her life is definitely not going to turn out the way she thought it would. 

OK, ok, but you seem nice, so please, as a favor to me, stay away from lemons... just in case, OK? 

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16 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Who you calling nerd?

Literally everyone who reads and posts on this forum board 6 years after the last book was published with absolutely zero idea of when the next one will be released 

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14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

You seem pretty absolute on everything and the meaning of any metaphors. So how the book end?

Bran, watching from his tree chair in the lands beyond the wall as his family had children grows old and eventually dies while bran lives for well over 100 years waiting for the the next greenseer for him to train 

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

If they slowly sold off they're possession after being booted, then what did the servants rob them of?

Money and property in the house. After Darry died, the kids were easy targets. We know that Viserys and Dany get their mom's crown, but that is about it. 

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Since they're supposedly in Braavos, they're servants and not slaves. So no indication or reason for them to really act that way.

Says who? because the Author says exactly that. Don't assume that because there is no slavery that every servant is a paragon of upright morality 

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

If it was Darry's house, then where in Dorne with all the descriptions that we have would it be?

The house isn't in dorne. It is in Bravos. Dorne is nothing tinfoil made up by people who have read every book a million times in the 6 years since the last novel and are so desperate for new content they pick apart every mistake the author makes.

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Most people think that's why its the Sea Lords House. If it's the Sea Lords House though, it makes no sense why the servants would treat guest in such a way.

Sealords arte elected officials, and the position changes over time.  We see this via Arya's POV.  If it was the sealords house, and darry died during that transition, the servants would not have anyone to be loyal to. I personally think that Darry was spending the last of the Targ's wealth to live in Bravos. Once he was dead, the servants took what they could and left

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Glass garden at Winterfell makes sense given they're Royals. The average bloke in Braavos shouldn't have them.

Darry wasn't an average bloke. As the caretaker of a royal family with status (the dornish pact signed by the sealord) they would have access to something more than what an average dude would have. 

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I read what you said, i just don't agree. It happens some times. It may be, but as others here pointed out, a mistake he repeated up till book 5? 

You don't have to agree or believer for it to be true. shit happens. And it isn't repeated at all. the house is in Bravos. AS said in the books. 

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Since the only place in Westeros that has Lemons in Dorne, it may be a metaphor for Dorne. Untill the author says other wise, idk, not my words for me to say with absolute conviction. 

Where was this written? Because afaik, lemons are not exclusive to dorne, but dorn is the last place to get them as winter approaches. 

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And ok....why are you here then? Since your not offering any new insight. Just curious

You assume that insight has to be new to be relevant. Disputing tinfoil crackpot is also relevant. 

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I mostly agree. Since he brought it up though i like to play Devil's Advocate. Again, my goal here is to discuss possibilities, even fringe ones. Long as we're looking at things and not just going. Oh well, George says dragons hatched so dragons hatched. End of story. Give something as to a reason the dragons hatched. (Exp.) Ill argue quaithe is secretly working with the Faceless men and Dorne if some one has a thought. We can call bullshit after, but in the mean time, some one may have an interesting thought worth gleaning. 

Quaith, a quartheen working with the faceless men to hatch dragons she knew nothing about? Elaborate please, unless there is nothing in the books to support your theory, then put in in heresay where it belongs with all the other baseless speculation

15 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Where are you getting all of this earlier draft info from?? A link or something maybe helpful, otherwise it's mostly nothing. 

And as you said any ways, nothing matters other than what was published. So all of that's irrelevant anyways. If it was a mistake, why repeat the same stupid mistake 5 books deep? If it had just been the first book then ok, but 5 books... really? Martin has spent yearssss trying to make his books the best he can, just to purposely keep mention a relic from old drafts that has no purpose in the published text? 

 I am unable to dig through SSM and interviews today, so I may be mistaken, but her accent and things like the lemon tree are holdovers from previous drafts. He is a human being and makes mistakes. Which is why he got proofreaders for book 5 and beyond. In thousands of pages, mistakes creep in, and if they are already published before the entirety of his world is fleshed out, he will keep them 

15 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Say's the nerd on the forum arguing against said people :D haha If your here, you've got a nerd side to you, sorry. We all do. 

This isn't arguing, this is tempering tinfoil crackpot, and yes, I am just as big of a nerd as anyone else on these forums, just slightly more rational
`

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17 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Good question. Personally, I prefer geek.

Geeks bite the heads off of chickens and other small animals in freak shows.  Nerd has an inherent bookish quality to it 

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11 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Or maybe Illyrio is a descendant of Daemon Blackfyre through Calla and Bittersteel? 

Based on descriptions of him id guess no, but, there is Varys. Varys may well be one, or a Targ.

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7 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I went back here. So, going forward...

I'm thinking you made a typo there? Illyrio began hosting the Targlings in Pentos in 297. 

The planning was certainly there. You noted what Illyrio told Tyrion but there was also this...

Daenerys I, Storm 8

And this...

The Lost Lord, Dance 24

Yes, the three egg MacGuffins...

Daenerys II, Game 11

We are told expressly that these three dragon’s eggs are ancient, petrified eggs from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai, and we recall that Illyrio is a trader in dragonbone with a trading network that stretches to the fabled lands beside the Jade Sea. And Daenerys's arc through Game syncs up with what the author shows the reader through Bran's coma vision inspired by Bloodraven...

Bran III, Game 17

The author is foreshadowing the hatching of the dragons. Also note that the larger passage from Bran III, Game 17 hints at the three main conflicts he identified in his 1993 letter: the storm into which Catelyn was heading and the shadows looming over House Stark, the dragons stirring beneath the sunrise, and the heart of winter. 

Daenerys II, Game 11

Here we learn that the three dragon’s eggs are worth the fortune in horses and slaves that Illyrio collected from Drogo for brokering the marriage pact. Does this mean that Illyrio gave Daenerys to Drogo, so Drogo gave Illyrio a fortune in horses and slaves? If so, then Drogo would not “owe” Viserys a crown, would he? On the other hand, should we believe that Daenerys’s property was, in fact, the property of her husband and khal, and that by giving Daenerys such “a truly magnificent gift,” that Illyrio had upset the gift-giving balance back in his favor? Recall that Daenerys was expected to give the bride gifts from Drogo's bloodriders to her husband. 

Keep in mind this could be nothing more than a plot device. In his 1993 letter, outlining his earliest concept of A Song of Ice and Fire, we see that The George initially intended to have Daenerys stumble upon a nest of petrified dragon’s eggs on the edge of the Dothraki Sea. 

On the way to Vaes Dothrak, Daenerys recalls an important scene involving Illyrio and her brother...

Daenerys III, Game 23

So, Illyrio wanted Viserys to remain in Pentos. I do not subscribe to the reverse psychology theory, which posits that Illyrio wanted Viserys to go off and die in the Dothraki Sea, so he told him to stay in Pentos. That’s cockamamie to my mind. Illyrio’s blink suggests that he was surprised by Viserys’s intention to go with Drogo. Illyrio clearly expected Viserys to remain in Pentos, where Illyrio could ply him with Lysene bed slaves and Arbor gold.

But here is an interesting question: If Viserys had remained in Pentos, would Jorah have gone with Daenerys? He swore his sword to Viserys after all. I suspect that The George did not work this out completely. We know that Daenerys is off to become the Mother of Dragons and the head of a motely host of Dothraki, unsullied, and freedmen, as well as a collection of sellswords, and possibly even Victarion’s Ironmen. And we know that The George, against Illyrio’s wishes, wanted Viserys to get his molten crown in Vaes Dothrak. And, in that way, The George would have Jorah go with Drogo, eventually siding with Daenerys, but keeping tabs on her for Illyrio until they reach Qarth. 

There is more speculation and discussion about Illyrio/Varys/Jorah/Daenerys/Asshai in these forums than there is in Game/Clash/Storm. When Jorah learned that Drogo was as good as dead his first thought was to avoid the Dothraki Sea, where they would be hunted and taken captive, and to make for a port to find passage, to Pentos. It wasn't until after Daenerys smothered Drogo and began erecting his pyre, believing she meant to throw herself on it as well, that Jorah suggested they go off together. But even then, after he swore to serve her, he was thinking about returning her to Pentos. After arriving in Qarth, we see Jorah’s counsel to Daenerys...

Daenerys III, Clash 40,

So, Jorah is definitely not steering Daenerys to Asshai on behalf of Illyrio. But we also see that Jorah no longer appears to be working as Illyrio's agent as he challenges Daenerys's assumption that Illyrio is her friend. In Daenerys I, Storm 8, Jorah suggests that they stop at Astapor to buy a small army of Unsullied to avoid arriving in Pentos into Illyrio's power. To buy the slave soldiers, Jorah persuades Daenerys to offer Illyrio's goods and to command Illyrio's agents to do her bidding. Jorah then kisses her and proposes to her. Although Jorah's infatuation with Daenerys had been hinted at after Drogo's death, we can see why he has been acting so possessively toward her, and why he has stopped advising her to return to Pentos. 

In Arya III, Game 32, we see Illyrio, incognito, one more time before we meet him again, much later, with Tyrion in Dance. Varys warns Illyrio that Houses Stark and Lannister will be at war soon. Illyrio says it is too soon for war, and that Varys must delay. Varys says he will try, but urges Illyrio accelerate his plan. 

In the very next chapter, we learn that Jorah has informed Varys, presumably through Illyrio, that Daenerys is pregnant, and, not only does Varys inform king and council that Daenerys is pregnant, which could be explained by Varys needing to maintain trust, but here we see Varys encourage the king to attempt to assassinate her. 

Eddard VIII, Game 33

What is the reader to make of this? This could simply be Varys playing yes-man. Or this could be Varys setting up a Rube Goldberg plot to provoke Drogo. With hindsight, we might think Varys would not want a challenger to his preferred claimant, Aegon, but then Varys would not have prevented the assassination. Given that Varys was so concerned about Drogo bestirring himself soon, it seems most likely that Varys was attempting to provoke Drogo into action. Still it seems awfully risky. If Varys had not been able to foil the assassination attempt against Daenerys, Drogo might not have felt inclined to support Illyrio's ulterior motive any longer. Moreover, we know Drogo would have been killed as well given the way the assassination attempt unfolded, and if that happened, then all of the planning with the Targlings would have been for naught. Varys goes so far as to suggest the method that is apparently used by the wineseller...

Eddard VIII, Game 33

As the Targlings enter Vaes Dothrak, Jorah expands our understanding of Dothraki gift-giving...

Daenerys IV, Game 36

This seems to reinforce the idea that Varys and Illyrio need to provoke Drogo into action since, even if the gift giving balance is in Illyrio’s favor, he cannot compel Drogo to act as soon as he might wish. 

As the Dothraki capture slaves from the Lhazareen, we see that the assassination plot was almost certainly designed to provoke Drogo into invading Westeros since Jorah tells Daenerys...

Daenerys VII, Game 61

I doubt Illyrio included that tidbit in his letter as gossip or idle chit-chat. 

I suspect that Mirri Maz Duur was protecting her people and seeking vengence for the wrongs done to them by the Dothraki. (http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/107265-were-khal-drogo-and-and-his-unborn-son-offerings-for-the-great-shepherd/

Actually, we have known this all along. Right off the bat, the author suggested to the reader that the Targlings should not trust Illyrio, and that the character had some ulterior motive. Viserys believes that Illyrio is aiding and abetting Viserys's for profit, believing that Illyrio expects to be rewarded when he comes into his throne, but Daenerys’s misgivings, as well as the fact that they were left to run from city to city for several years before Illyrio began to succor them, suggests right away to the reader that Illyrio’s motives should be questioned. This quote is most telling...

Daenerys I, Game 3

When Viserys talks about making good his claim to the Iron Throne, he declares that he will kill Robert Baratheon himself, to which Illyrio replies, “That would be most fitting," but Daenerys notices “the smallest hint of a smile playing around his full lips,” which Viserys fails to notice. And Illyrio appears to feed into Viserys’s paranoia about being pursued by assassins sent by Robert Baratheon, which we learn just nine chapters later is a false belief. 

At then end of Storm, the reader should conclude that they are working to install a claimant other than one of the Targlings on the Iron Throne, but we can only guess at who that other claimant might be. Based on what we know before The Sworn Sword and Feast, that claimant would likely be Rhaegar's son Aegon, or perhaps an imposter posing as Rhaegar's son. Given that Aerion was introduced as the antagonist in The Hedge Knight, which was published before Clash, the next most likely possibility at this point is a descendant of Aerion's son, who, we learn in Jon I, Clash 6, was passed over for Aegon the Unlikely. A descendant of Rhaenrya Targaryen was another possibility, but she was only mentioned once. Finally, we have to consider a descendant of Daemon Blackfyre since Catelyn told us that the Blackfyre "pretenders" troubled the Targaryens for five generations, but she also suggested they were wiped out a generation or two earlier. 

As to the Archon of Tyrosh, keep in mind that Archons change. As to The Blackfyre, the suspicion is there because of the build up, and looking back through the early books now, we can find many possible hints

 

 

Oops, yes that was a typo. 

All those clues look like Illyrio not wanting him in Pentos but in the Dothraki Sea.  The only one that really counters is that Viserys was supposed to meet them with the Dothraki at his back. 

Keep in mind that Drogo has no intention of going to Westeros, not untill Viserys is dead and Dany was attacked. If fact he talks about going to Asshai and killing the milk men i believe, or was it Qarth? 

So what was Illyrio's plan? Have Viserys wait in Pentos while he kills his sister in the Dothraki sea to provoke the Dothraki? Ok, i can buy some of that, but what about the dragon eggs? And Interesting you say that about the plot of Dany in the Outline yet that was written after 13 chapters in. Dany get's her eggs in her 2nd chapter so he changed that idea real quick. Lets leave the out line out. 

Yes the Bloodriders were supposed to give their gift over but nothing stated about her gift from Jorah or Illyrio.

And yes the assassination attempt would have killed Dany and possibly Drogo. All we know of the letter Jorah receives is that it was a pardon, that's it, nothing about Jorah being the Assassin. So this is the moment we can see Jorah put some pieces together and realize that they're about to kill Dany, to which Jorah prevents it. Beginning of Jorah going against Illyrio.

Speaking of which, Illyrio wants her in Pentos, and at noooo time does Jorah agree to this untill she has an Army at her back. All that passage proves is that once Dany hatched the eggs, Jorah was suddenly against Asshai. Suggesting he may have put together another part of Illyrio's plans.

See, Dany dying in the Dothraki Sea so Viserys can meet the Golden Company with the Dothraki at his back makes no sense, as how would this help Aegon? Were they just gonna kill Viserys then or something? Seems easier to kill Viserys, as he's a pain. I doubt there would have been a co rule or that Viserys would be happy to learn that Rhaegar's heir would rule before him.

And yes exactly, Illyrio has likely been feeding Viserys's paranoia, and secretly smiles at the stupid idea of Viserys killing Robert. Illyrio knowing it would happen the other way around. Illyrio is at no point supporting Viserys. Maybe he just wanted them both dead? His plans def seem to go beyond Dany and Viserys. 

Sorry im rushed atm so have to keep it short.

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3 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Bran, watching from his tree chair in the lands beyond the wall as his family had children grows old and eventually dies while bran lives for well over 100 years waiting for the the next greenseer for him to train 

Money and property in the house. After Darry died, the kids were easy targets. We know that Viserys and Dany get their mom's crown, but that is about it. 

Says who? because the Author says exactly that. Don't assume that because there is no slavery that every servant is a paragon of upright morality 

The house isn't in dorne. It is in Bravos. Dorne is nothing tinfoil made up by people who have read every book a million times in the 6 years since the last novel and are so desperate for new content they pick apart every mistake the author makes.

Sealords arte elected officials, and the position changes over time.  We see this via Arya's POV.  If it was the sealords house, and darry died during that transition, the servants would not have anyone to be loyal to. I personally think that Darry was spending the last of the Targ's wealth to live in Bravos. Once he was dead, the servants took what they could and left

Darry wasn't an average bloke. As the caretaker of a royal family with status (the dornish pact signed by the sealord) they would have access to something more than what an average dude would have. 

You don't have to agree or believer for it to be true. shit happens. And it isn't repeated at all. the house is in Bravos. AS said in the books. 

Where was this written? Because afaik, lemons are not exclusive to dorne, but dorn is the last place to get them as winter approaches. 

You assume that insight has to be new to be relevant. Disputing tinfoil crackpot is also relevant. 

Quaith, a quartheen working with the faceless men to hatch dragons she knew nothing about? Elaborate please, unless there is nothing in the books to support your theory, then put in in heresay where it belongs with all the other baseless speculation

 I am unable to dig through SSM and interviews today, so I may be mistaken, but her accent and things like the lemon tree are holdovers from previous drafts. He is a human being and makes mistakes. Which is why he got proofreaders for book 5 and beyond. In thousands of pages, mistakes creep in, and if they are already published before the entirety of his world is fleshed out, he will keep them 

This isn't arguing, this is tempering tinfoil crackpot, and yes, I am just as big of a nerd as anyone else on these forums, just slightly more rational
`

That doesn't cover Jon and Dany and how the Others will be defeated.

Well, the crown, and some other money they spent. Plus Viserys somehow treated the Golden Company, with what?

And yes, because through all 5 books plus TWOIAF we're told that Braavos is against slavery hard core due to their origins of being slaves. Pentos isn't supposed to have slaves due to a war with Braavos. 

Possibly. No we dont see that in Arya's POV. All we see is that there is some new Sea Lord that has a different First Sword than Syrio. We're not really given much.

So he was a care taker to a royal family, doesn't mean he was rich. And where in smuggling them out would he have been carting a ton of gold? Id venture some one was helping Darry.

Yes, you said the Lemon Tree was an artifact from some older draft. I then asked  a relic repeated up till book 5? And yes, the lemon tree is mentioned in book 5. 

When talking of Lemons in Arya's chapter i believe. A lady says, what do you think this is, Dorne. Implying the only place in Westeros they grow naturally is Dorne. 

No, just constructive. Down playing one idea while not offering another is not constructive. Thats all. Im up for disagreement otherwise. 

Face palm. I just randomly made that shit about Quiathe having some random link to the Faceless men and dragons as an example of something random some one could try to argue that id be willing to listen to, long as they provided ideas as to how it happened. In reference to you just blasting stuff while offering nothing.

Well if you ever find it, let me know. And yes i know he makes mistakes and that's why he hired Elio and Linda. 

Yes, i really dont like the term arguing really. Debating is better. This post isn't a theory though, so your not tempering any crackpot theories. This is asking people to express their crack pot ideas, because im interested to hear them haha so i wanna hear what you think happened, not just what you think didn't happen :D

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Ill be updating the info in the main post later to reflect somethings discussed in here already, and fix the typo date. 

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