Braavos, Tyrosh, and Dorne, Lemons Tree's and a Red Door. Go.

[AlaskanSandman]

Just now, Lost Melnibonean said:

Daemon Blackfyre's father is Aegon the Unworthy. If Illyrio descends from Daemon, he descends from Aegon IV. Could you buy that? 

Well the fat part certainly lol Except isnt he described as a ginger? Or i guess it is Yellow huh? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmfmdmfamsdmfamsdfashdfjahs;dkfh asdfdfsd maybe......

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Let us not forget Sarella Sand and the fact that Mirri trained with Marwyn. See i think there is definitely something here going on.

So do you think Marwyn and the Hightowers are in on things together. Maybe the Citidel as a whole are not part of it? or are they too?

I kinda wanna take all these bits and pieces and add them into the main post to help paint a picture of what's happening for others to draw from it what they may.

I am not sure about Marwyn and the Hightowers being totally aligned, but I think Marwyn is probably interested in Malora's dreams at a minimum. I doubt the rest of the Citadel is aligned with Marwyn, since he and Qyburn refer to them as "grey sheep". Most maesters seem to be anti-magic/anti-dragon, while Marwyn and Qyburn seem to be trying to fully understand magic and the nature of prophecy. I think Marwyn assumes that prophecies are sent by nefarious actors given his speech about its nature and the fact that he knows about glass candles.

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

What's the truth though and how do these various players fit in? I like alot of these things brought up so far that help paint a picture with out having to do alot of leaping and assuming.

Edit- Like the info about the Hightowers and the Cinnamon Wind and such. Tracking these kind of things i think can help alot.

LOL I'm not sure what the truth is at all, but my best educated guess at this time is that Dany is not Dany, and the Dany we know is the daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna born at the ToJ. And Varys swapped her with the real Dany because fake Dany had the right genes for dragon riding and real Dany didn't (or was stillborn), and Varys saw the need to take a baby with the right genes and steal a Targaryen identity for her for his purposes years later, similar to fAegon. There are definitely weaknesses with this theory, but that's true for every Dany theory, including the story we are presented at face value.

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Hightower involvement begs it's own questions. As their origins are weird, their ties to the Citidel are weird, and mostly, their role in the Dance of the Dragons that saw almost the extinction of House Targaryen and they're dragons. Who did die shortly after. Dragons were said to roost upon Battle Isle before the first Hightowers put an end to them. This can be literal dragons, or metaphorical dragons (Valyrians, etc.) 

Edit-Is there signs of Hightower aid to the Blackfyre's during the rebellion? or were they for House Targaryen?

Personally I think Battle Isle was where the original big battle in the Battle for the Dawn was fought and did indeed involve literal, pre-Valyrian dragons, at least the one dragon ridden by Azor Ahai, but I assume he had 3.

Hightowers supported both sides in the first Blackfyre rebellion.

[Ygrain]

15 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Here we learn that the three dragon’s eggs are worth the fortune in horses and slaves that Illyrio collected from Drogo for brokering the marriage pact. Does this mean that Illyrio gave Daenerys to Drogo, so Drogo gave Illyrio a fortune in horses and slaves? If so, then Drogo would not “owe” Viserys a crown, would he? On the other hand, should we believe that Daenerys’s property was, in fact, the property of her husband and khal, and that by giving Daenerys such “a truly magnificent gift,” that Illyrio had upset the gift-giving balance back in his favor? Recall that Daenerys was expected to give the bride gifts from Drogo's bloodriders to her husband. 

Now that's a good idea, and a pretty plausible explanation.

15 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

On the way to Vaes Dothrak, Daenerys recalls an important scene involving Illyrio and her brother...

Daenerys III, Game 23

So, Illyrio wanted Viserys to remain in Pentos. I do not subscribe to the reverse psychology theory, which posits that Illyrio wanted Viserys to go off and die in the Dothraki Sea, so he told him to stay in Pentos. That’s cockamamie to my mind. Illyrio’s blink suggests that he was surprised by Viserys’s intention to go with Drogo. Illyrio clearly expected Viserys to remain in Pentos, where Illyrio could ply him with Lysene bed slaves and Arbor gold.

I am not sure I subscribe to it myself, but one thing is clear here: for one supposedly invested in Viserys' wellbeing, lllyrio spends exactly zero effort to convince Viserys to stay where he would be safe. And when talking about Dany with Tyrion, he states outright that he expected her to die, seeing her as weak and timid. He isn't supporting them, he is only using them.

15 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Finally, we have to consider a descendant of Daemon Blackfyre since Catelyn told us that the Blackfyre "pretenders" troubled the Targaryens for five generations, but she also suggested they were wiped out a generation or two earlier. 

And in ADWD we learn that Blackfyres are extinct in male line, which leaves open the possibility of female line.

15 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The Feast did not end on a happy note.

Understatement of the year!  

5 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

2) Jorah says that by rights Leyton should have refused his offer, but for some reason he accepted, again hinting that the whole thing was just a Hightower set-up.

Or Leyton was simply most happy that some idiot, unacquainted with his family, turned up to rid him of his spoilt brat whose expensive tastes and temper tantrums would drive any other suitor away...

[Ygrain]

5 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

 The lemon tree is an integral part of Dany's story. The lemon tree was originally from an earlier version where the house was in Tyrosh. when he moved the house to Braavos, he kept the tree, but later made Braavos cold and foggy.  That was the relic part. Had she been in Bravos from the beginning, she would be into apples or cherries or something 

A lot of the original version remained in other references - she remembers fondly playing in the bazars of Tyrosh, asks if there are honeyfingers in Westeros, too, the wineseller asks if she might be Tyroshi...

I wouldn't be surprised if she got to Braavos at some point and realized that her fondest memory of home was actually confalting several memories together and it never existed.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Or Leyton was simply most happy that some idiot, unacquainted with his family, turned up to rid him of his spoilt brat whose expensive tastes and temper tantrums would drive any other suitor away...

Maybe... but realistically, but if you are any random petty Reach lord wouldn't it be worth it to marry a spoiled brat if it means you are marrying into one of the most powerful houses in Westeros? People generally didn't marry for love, and giving Lynesse away to a relatively poor northern lord seems like the equivalent of Leyton burning a giant pile of cash. Sons and daughters are generally married off in order to strengthen alliances or gain power or whatever. And if she really is that annoying, why not keep her in case someone rich is interested like the Lannisters? Tregar Ormollen certainly didn't have any problems with Lynesse.

And that explanation would mean the subsequent set-up of Jorah selling men to Tyroshi slavers was basically an opportunistic coincidence, which would feel very contrived for GRRM.

[AlaskanSandman]

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Now that's a good idea, and a pretty plausible explanation.

I am not sure I subscribe to it myself, but one thing is clear here: for one supposedly invested in Viserys' wellbeing, lllyrio spends exactly zero effort to convince Viserys to stay where he would be safe. And when talking about Dany with Tyrion, he states outright that he expected her to die, seeing her as weak and timid. He isn't supporting them, he is only using them.

And in ADWD we learn that Blackfyres are extinct in male line, which leaves open the possibility of female line.

Understatement of the year!  

Or Leyton was simply most happy that some idiot, unacquainted with his family, turned up to rid him of his spoilt brat whose expensive tastes and temper tantrums would drive any other suitor away...

The gift giving part is a good idea.

I tend to agree for that reason too. 

Yea im leaning towards female line as it seems female line matters the most.

Lol that is quite possible actually

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Maybe... but realistically, but if you are any random petty Reach lord wouldn't it be worth it to marry a spoiled brat if it means you are marrying into one of the most powerful houses in Westeros? People generally didn't marry for love, and giving Lynesse away to a relatively poor northern lord seems like the equivalent of Leyton burning a giant pile of cash. Sons and daughters are generally married off in order to strengthen alliances or gain power or whatever. And if she really is that annoying, why not keep her in case someone rich is interested like the Lannisters? Tregar Ormollen certainly didn't have any problems with Lynesse.

And that explanation would mean the subsequent set-up of Jorah selling men to Tyroshi slavers was basically an opportunistic coincidence, which would feel very contrived for GRRM.

If I am counting well, Lynesse was a tenth child. it's not like Leyton needed any more alliances than he already had, with Tyrells, Redwyns and Fossoways. Perhaps he, too, was taken with his cute daughter, and when she tossed her golden locks and stomped her little feet, she could convince her father to do what she wanted, which happened to be Jorah in his tourney glory?

Leyton wanting to get rid of her ASAP or yielding to her whim is way more plausible than a spoilt fifteen-year-old manipulating Jorah into selling slaves in order to make him exiled, so that Illyrio could hire him. 

[Maia]

On 7.9.2017 at 9:30 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

what does this have to do with the house being in Tyrosh in an earlier draft of the story before it was published? 

 

Well, the thing is that the story where house with the red door and it's lemon tree was still located in Tyrosh  _was_ published in Azimov's magazine in the form of Hugo-winning novella "Blood of the Dragon" novella. So, it was a very late change plus, as others have mentioned, all the references to Tyrosh re: Dany in AGoT. What the reason for this change was remains to be seen, but it soundly de-bunks the more outlandish theories - like the house being in Dorne, etc.

 

12 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

All we know of the letter Jorah receives is that it was a pardon, that's it, nothing about Jorah being the Assassin.

 

We know no such thing, actually, and IMHO it was one of the more absurd inventions of the show. But then, Varys's motivations make zero sense there and Illyrio is almost completely erased from the proceedings.

In fact, during the small council meeting in AGoT where Varys reported Dany's pregnancy, somebody suggested that Jorah might murder her for a pardon, but Varys firmly shot down this suggestion.

[AlaskanSandman]

3 minutes ago, Maia said:

 

Well, the thing is that the story where house with the red door and it's lemon tree was still located in Tyrosh  _was_ published in Azimov's magazine in the form of Hugo-winning novella "Blood of the Dragon" novella. So, it was a very late change plus, as others have mentioned, all the references to Tyrosh re: Dany in AGoT. What the reason for this change was remains to be seen, but it soundly de-bunks the more outlandish theories - like the house being in Dorne, etc.

 

 

We know no such thing, actually, and IMHO it was one of the more absurd inventions of the show. But then, Varys's motivations make zero sense there and Illyrio is almost completely erased from the proceedings.

In fact, during the small council meeting in AGoT where Varys reported Dany's pregnancy, somebody suggested that Jorah might murder her for a pardon, but Varys firmly shot down this suggestion.

Hmmm. Ill have to see if i cant find a copy to read. 

Ooooo id hate to think i mixed the show. Bad. 

Yea still think Jorah goes against Varys and Illyrio at this moment and they wanted her dead then.

[AlaskanSandman]

14 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

If I am counting well, Lynesse was a tenth child. it's not like Leyton needed any more alliances than he already had, with Tyrells, Redwyns and Fossoways. Perhaps he, too, was taken with his cute daughter, and when she tossed her golden locks and stomped her little feet, she could convince her father to do what she wanted, which happened to be Jorah in his tourney glory?

Leyton wanting to get rid of her ASAP or yielding to her whim is way more plausible than a spoilt fifteen-year-old manipulating Jorah into selling slaves in order to make him exiled, so that Illyrio could hire him. 

I think the idea is that her life style in general is above Jorah, so who ever got them together would've counted on her being her and driving Jorah poor on her own accord. It just being what who ever (Illyrio and Varys?) wanted. Cant control everything. But i agree getting rid of her just to get rid of her is plenty reason needed for Leyton.

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

11 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Braavos is too far north, and the climate is too cold. It would be like me trying to grow lemons here in Wisconsin.

Ahhh. I never realized lemons needed hot climates to grow. Or that it wouldn't grow in the summer in colder areas. 

 

11 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Remembering something from age 7 or 8 isn't remarkable. Dany would have been even younger than that while in Braavos. The house with the red door and the lemon tree outside her bedroom window could be an amalgam, a dream she's conjured up out of bits and pieces of memories. It's come to stand for safety, security, and home in her mind, but it may not be just one place.

Some people have been saying that it could be a composite memory. But most people have clear memories of childhood homes. I do, and I know most of the things I remembered were rather accurate after visiting the place years after leaving. But one big difference is that everything looks smaller as an adult. Dany remembers a "big" house, which probably isn't big. Also, the lemon tree she remembers could have been a small plant that looked big to a little girl. It's also possible that it's not the house she's remembering inaccurately, but the location. Not Braavos. It makes sense considering Braavosi hates all things of Old Valyria. How did they raise Targ babies in the same city as Faceless Men? 

[AlaskanSandman]

22 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Ahhh. I never realized lemons needed hot climates to grow. Or that it wouldn't grow in the summer in colder areas. 

 

Some people have been saying that it could be a composite memory. But most people have clear memories of childhood homes. I do, and I know most of the things I remembered were rather accurate after visiting the place years after leaving. But one big difference is that everything looks smaller as an adult. Dany remembers a "big" house, which probably isn't big. Also, the lemon tree she remembers could have been a small plant that looked big to a little girl. It's also possible that it's not the house she's remembering inaccurately, but the location. Not Braavos. It makes sense considering Braavosi hates all things of Old Valyria. How did they raise Targ babies in the same city as Faceless Men? 

Yea we dont have citrus in Alaska where im from either. Believe Florida and California are the states for those.

This i agree with and gives me pause to think.

[Dorian Martell's son]

6 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yea we dont have citrus in Alaska where im from either. Believe Florida and California are the states for those.

This i agree with and gives me pause to think.

Give it time. With the current pace of global warming, your backyard could be an orange grove in a matter of a few years

[Ygrain]

7 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Ahhh. I never realized lemons needed hot climates to grow. Or that it wouldn't grow in the summer in colder areas. 

Not that hot, actually, but they require special care during winter, so it's easier to grow them potted and move them to winter garden. But the local botanical garden keeps all kinds of subtropical plants outside and only provide coverage for winter, so it can be done and it's not exactly rocket science

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

13 hours ago, Ygrain said:

If I am counting well, Lynesse was a tenth child. it's not like Leyton needed any more alliances than he already had, with Tyrells, Redwyns and Fossoways. Perhaps he, too, was taken with his cute daughter, and when she tossed her golden locks and stomped her little feet, she could convince her father to do what she wanted, which happened to be Jorah in his tourney glory?

Leyton wanting to get rid of her ASAP or yielding to her whim is way more plausible than a spoilt fifteen-year-old manipulating Jorah into selling slaves in order to make him exiled, so that Illyrio could hire him. 

Well that's a good point about her being a tenth child and therefore of less importance, but I don't think it is necessarily "way more plausible" than her manipulating Jorah into exile, which seems to have been super duper easy. I am not accusing Lynesse of personally handling the logistics of hiring the Tyroshi slavers and whatnot. All she had to do was continuously complain until Jorah was broke and then dump him once he became a sellsword. It certainly wouldn't be the most complicated plan that Varys/Illyrio have concocted.

[Ygrain]

5 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

It certainly wouldn't be the most complicated plan that Varys/Illyrio have concocted.

Did they somehow make him fall for Lynesse, too?

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

15 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Did they somehow make him fall for Lynesse, too?

I think that would be super easy for Lynesse to handle. All she would have to do is flirt with Jorah. Boom. Done. She was super hot according to Jorah:

Quote

"Very beautiful." Ser Jorah lifted his eyes from her shoulder to her face. "The first time I beheld her, I thought she was a goddess come to earth, the Maid herself made flesh. Her birth was far above my own. She was the youngest daughter of Lord Leyton Hightower of Oldtown. The White Bull who commanded your father's Kingsguard was her great-uncle. The Hightowers are an ancient family, very rich and very proud."

He obviously didn't fall in love because of her amazing personality  

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 9/9/2017 at 7:44 AM, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Ahhh. I never realized lemons needed hot climates to grow. Or that it wouldn't grow in the summer in colder areas. 

 

Some people have been saying that it could be a composite memory. But most people have clear memories of childhood homes. I do, and I know most of the things I remembered were rather accurate after visiting the place years after leaving. But one big difference is that everything looks smaller as an adult. Dany remembers a "big" house, which probably isn't big. Also, the lemon tree she remembers could have been a small plant that looked big to a little girl. It's also possible that it's not the house she's remembering inaccurately, but the location. Not Braavos. It makes sense considering Braavosi hates all things of Old Valyria. How did they raise Targ babies in the same city as Faceless Men? 

That city with the Faceless Men allied with Aegon the Dragon before he conquered Westeros. 

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

8 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

That city with the Faceless Men allied with Aegon the Dragon before he conquered Westeros. 

Braavos allied with Aegon? Citation please. We know Aegon went to Essos, but instead of conquering the east, he turned to the west. I didn't know whether he had eastern allies in this at all. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Braavos allied with Aegon? Citation please. We know Aegon went to Essos, but instead of conquering the east, he turned to the west. I didn't know whether he had eastern allies in this at all. 

From The Doom of Valyria, TWOIAF...

Quote

Volantis, the mightiest of the Free Cities, quickly laid claim to Valyria’s mantle. Men and women of noble Valyrian blood, though not dragonlords, called for war upon the other cities. The tigers, as those who advocated conquest came to be known, led Volantis into a great conflict with the other Free Cities. They had great success at first, their fleets and armies controlling Lys and Myr and commanding the southern reaches of the Rhoyne. It was only when they overreached and attempted to seize Tyrosh, as well, that their burgeoning empire collapsed. Unnerved by the Volantene aggression, Pentos joined the Tyroshi in resistance, Myr and Lys rebelled, and the Sealord of Braavos provided a fleet of a hundred ships to aid Lys. Also, the Westerosi Storm King, Argilac the Arrogant, led a host into the Disputed Lands—in return for the promise of gold and glory—that defeated a Volantene host attempting to retake Myr.

In the wake of all the conflicts, and the struggles that continue to this day over the Disputed Lands, the plague of the Free Companies was born and took root. At first, these bands of sellswords merely fought for whoever paid them. But there are those who say that, whenever peace threatened, the captains of these Free Companies acted to instigate new wars to sustain themselves, and so grew fat on the spoils.

Near the end, even the future Conqueror, the still-young Aegon Targaryen, became involved in the struggle. His ancestors had long looked east, but his attention from an early age had been turned westward. Still, when Pentos and Tyrosh approached him, inviting him to join a grand alliance against Volantis, he listened. And for reasons unknown to this day, he chose to heed their call . . . to a point. Mounting the Black Dread, it is said that he flew to the east, meeting with the Prince of Pentos and the magisters of the Free City, and from there flew Balerion to Lys in time to set ablaze a Volantene fleet that was preparing to invade that Free City.

Volantis suffered further defeats—at Dagger Lake, where the fire galleys of Qohor and Norvos destroyed much of the Volantene fleet that controlled the Rhoyne; and in the east when the Dothraki began to swarm out of the Dothraki sea, leaving ruined towns and cities in their wake as they fell on the weakened Volantis. At last the elephants—the Volantene faction who favored peace, and who were largely drawn from the wealthy tradesmen and merchants who suffered most in the war—took power from the tigers and put an end to the fighting.

As for Aegon Targaryen, shortly after his role in defeating Volantis it is written that he lost all interest in the affairs of the east. Believing Volantis’s rule at an end, he flew back to Dragonstone. And now, no longer distracted by the wars of Essos, he turned his gaze west.