AlaskanSandman

Braavos, Tyrosh, and Dorne, Lemons Tree's and a Red Door. Go.

123 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

From The Doom of Valyria, TWOIAF...

 

Pentos and Tyrosh asks Aegon to side with them, not Braavos. 

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1 hour ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Pentos and Tyrosh asks Aegon to side with them, not Braavos. 

As stated in the text, "Still, when Pentos and Tyrosh approached him, inviting him to join a grand alliance against Volantis, he listened. And for reasons unknown to this day, he chose to heed their call . . . to a point." That grand alliance included Braavos. 

What's the old adage? Politics makes strange bedfellows. And we also have Otto von Bismarck words of wisdom, Politics is the art of the possible. 

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5 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

From The Doom of Valyria, TWOIAF...

 

Volantis, the mightiest of the Free Cities, quickly laid claim to Valyria’s mantle. Men and women of noble Valyrian blood, though not dragonlords, called for war upon the other cities. The tigers, as those who advocated conquest came to be known, led Volantis into a great conflict with the other Free Cities. They had great success at first, their fleets and armies controlling Lys and Myr and commanding the southern reaches of the Rhoyne. It was only when they overreached and attempted to seize Tyrosh, as well, that their burgeoning empire collapsed. Unnerved by the Volantene aggression, Pentos joined the Tyroshi in resistance, Myr and Lys rebelled, and the Sealord of Braavos provided a fleet of a hundred ships to aid Lys. Also, the Westerosi Storm King, Argilac the Arrogant, led a host into the Disputed Lands—in return for the promise of gold and glory—that defeated a Volantene host attempting to retake Myr.

In the wake of all the conflicts, and the struggles that continue to this day over the Disputed Lands, the plague of the Free Companies was born and took root. At first, these bands of sellswords merely fought for whoever paid them. But there are those who say that, whenever peace threatened, the captains of these Free Companies acted to instigate new wars to sustain themselves, and so grew fat on the spoils.

Near the end, even the future Conqueror, the still-young Aegon Targaryen, became involved in the struggle. His ancestors had long looked east, but his attention from an early age had been turned westward. Still, when Pentos and Tyrosh approached him, inviting him to join a grand alliance against Volantis, he listened. And for reasons unknown to this day, he chose to heed their call . . . to a point. Mounting the Black Dread, it is said that he flew to the east, meeting with the Prince of Pentos and the magisters of the Free City, and from there flew Balerion to Lys in time to set ablaze a Volantene fleet that was preparing to invade that Free City.

Volantis suffered further defeats—at Dagger Lake, where the fire galleys of Qohor and Norvos destroyed much of the Volantene fleet that controlled the Rhoyne; and in the east when the Dothraki began to swarm out of the Dothraki sea, leaving ruined towns and cities in their wake as they fell on the weakened Volantis. At last the elephants—the Volantene faction who favored peace, and who were largely drawn from the wealthy tradesmen and merchants who suffered most in the war—took power from the tigers and put an end to the fighting.

As for Aegon Targaryen, shortly after his role in defeating Volantis it is written that he lost all interest in the affairs of the east. Believing Volantis’s rule at an end, he flew back to Dragonstone. And now, no longer distracted by the wars of Essos, he turned his gaze west.

So really the only thing we're told is that early in the conflict the Sea Lord of Braavos aided Lys with ships, and that toward the end of the war, Aegon the Conqueror got involved. So no direct hint that Aegon and Braavos are direct allies. They both just simply helped a shared friend/ally.

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2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Volantis, the mightiest of the Free Cities, quickly laid claim to Valyria’s mantle. Men and women of noble Valyrian blood, though not dragonlords, called for war upon the other cities. The tigers, as those who advocated conquest came to be known, led Volantis into a great conflict with the other Free Cities. They had great success at first, their fleets and armies controlling Lys and Myr and commanding the southern reaches of the Rhoyne. It was only when they overreached and attempted to seize Tyrosh, as well, that their burgeoning empire collapsed. Unnerved by the Volantene aggression, Pentos joined the Tyroshi in resistance, Myr and Lys rebelled, and the Sealord of Braavos provided a fleet of a hundred ships to aid Lys. Also, the Westerosi Storm King, Argilac the Arrogant, led a host into the Disputed Lands—in return for the promise of gold and glory—that defeated a Volantene host attempting to retake Myr.

In the wake of all the conflicts, and the struggles that continue to this day over the Disputed Lands, the plague of the Free Companies was born and took root. At first, these bands of sellswords merely fought for whoever paid them. But there are those who say that, whenever peace threatened, the captains of these Free Companies acted to instigate new wars to sustain themselves, and so grew fat on the spoils.

Near the end, even the future Conqueror, the still-young Aegon Targaryen, became involved in the struggle. His ancestors had long looked east, but his attention from an early age had been turned westward. Still, when Pentos and Tyrosh approached him, inviting him to join a grand alliance against Volantis, he listened. And for reasons unknown to this day, he chose to heed their call . . . to a point. Mounting the Black Dread, it is said that he flew to the east, meeting with the Prince of Pentos and the magisters of the Free City, and from there flew Balerion to Lys in time to set ablaze a Volantene fleet that was preparing to invade that Free City.

Volantis suffered further defeats—at Dagger Lake, where the fire galleys of Qohor and Norvos destroyed much of the Volantene fleet that controlled the Rhoyne; and in the east when the Dothraki began to swarm out of the Dothraki sea, leaving ruined towns and cities in their wake as they fell on the weakened Volantis. At last the elephants—the Volantene faction who favored peace, and who were largely drawn from the wealthy tradesmen and merchants who suffered most in the war—took power from the tigers and put an end to the fighting.

As for Aegon Targaryen, shortly after his role in defeating Volantis it is written that he lost all interest in the affairs of the east. Believing Volantis’s rule at an end, he flew back to Dragonstone. And now, no longer distracted by the wars of Essos, he turned his gaze west.

So really the only thing we're told is that early in the conflict the Sea Lord of Braavos aided Lys with ships, and that toward the end of the war, Aegon the Conqueror got involved. So no direct hint that Aegon and Braavos are direct allies. They both just simply helped a shared friend/ally.

Kinda like the USSR and the USA in WW II? 

What I am suggesting is that we should not assume that Braavos would never fight on the same side as a dragonlord, since they have at least once. 

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6 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Kinda like the USSR and the USA in WW II? 

What I am suggesting is that we should not assume that Braavos would never fight on the same side as a dragonlord, since they have at least once. 

True. Just indirectly. Braavos i can understand helping Lys. Aegon's interest is interesting

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Updated dates, and info regarding Jorah, Lynesse, the Hightowers, and the Cinnamon wind, along with Marwyn.

Edit- Debating whether i should include all known information surrounding Dany before Dragonstone also.

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

True. Just indirectly. Braavos i can understand helping Lys. Aegon's interest is interesting

And since our only current dragonlord has been freeing slaves, Braavos might be inclined to ally with her. Especially if Euron becomes her principle adversary. 

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40 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

And since our only current dragonlord has been freeing slaves, Braavos might be inclined to ally with her. Especially if Euron becomes her principle adversary. 

I tend to agree. The only thing that makes me pause is The Faceless men and what Jaquen Hgar is up to. Why he was in the Black Cells of K.L., why his interest and helping or Arya, a person with warging ability and skinchanging abilities, who is also able to change her face later seems more than coincidentally lucky. Why he later pops up in Old Town trying to get a key that'll give him access to the Citidel and possible dragon knowledge, if not something else they're searching for. If its information on dragons, this seems troubling for Dany.

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On 11/09/2017 at 3:08 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

That city with the Faceless Men allied with Aegon the Dragon before he conquered Westeros. 

And the son of a Sealord was once betrothed to a dragon rider with a Targaryen mother and Velaryon father. The Braavosi aversion to Targaryens is, I think, overstated in the fandom based off a single line from Tycho Nestoris 

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38 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I tend to agree. The only thing that makes me pause is The Faceless men and what Jaquen Hgar is up to. Why he was in the Black Cells of K.L., why his interest and helping or Arya, a person with warging ability and skinchanging abilities, who is also able to change her face later seems more than coincidentally lucky. Why he later pops up in Old Town trying to get a key that'll give him access to the Citidel and possible dragon knowledge, if not something else they're searching for. If its information on dragons, this seems troubling for Dany.

Perhaps Littlefinger hired a Faceless Man to kill Ned? As for the Faceless man's attraction to Arya, lucky things happen to protagonists, otherwise stories would be dull. As for why he is in at the Citadel later, your guess is as good as mine. 

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On 9/8/2017 at 8:45 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

Its interesting that the Hightowers may have Glass candles, the Citidel does, and so does Marwyn who trained Miri.

Now, Quaithe who may have a Glass Candle as she come to Dany a "Different way" and isn't really there and that her guards didn't see her. Quaithe warns Dany of alot of people, The Lion, The Griffin, The sun's son, the Mummer's Dragon, Dark Flame and Kraken. Yet, she never warns of Marwyn coming. Every one she mentions has no apparent connection to either, the Hightowers, Marwyn, or the Citidel.

Just realized that.

If you look at Quaithe's warning again, she is giving real time info about people who are headed toward Dany at the time. It's like a traffic report. She also warns about the perfumed seneschal who may well be Reznak mo Reznak who is already there and may be moving against Dany (rather than toward her like the others).

Neither Marwyn, nor the Hightowers are making any moves at that point to get near Dany, so there's no reason to include them.

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11 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

If you look at Quaithe's warning again, she is giving real time info about people who are headed toward Dany at the time. It's like a traffic report. She also warns about the perfumed seneschal who may well be Reznak mo Reznak who is already there and may be moving against Dany (rather than toward her like the others).

Neither Marwyn, nor the Hightowers are making any moves at that point to get near Dany, so there's no reason to include them.

Very true. That being said though, the Cinnamon Wind if tied to them, should've been seen by Quiathe as the ship pops up in Qarth before Mereen. Though maybe nothing :)

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On 9/12/2017 at 9:49 AM, HelenaExMachina said:

And the son of a Sealord was once betrothed to a dragon rider with a Targaryen mother and Velaryon father. The Braavosi aversion to Targaryens is, I think, overstated in the fandom based off a single line from Tycho Nestoris 

Quiet possible and good point!!

The only thing clear about the Braavosi is they dont like slavery.

The founders of Braavos risked their lives for freedom, and swore a vow that no one in their city would ever be a slave, thrall, or bondsman. This vow became the First Law of Braavos, and is engraved on the arch spanning the Long Canal.

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37 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Quiet possible and good point!!

The only thing clear about the Braavosi is they dont like slavery.

The founders of Braavos risked their lives for freedom, and swore a vow that no one in their city would ever be a slave, thrall, or bondsman. This vow became the First Law of Braavos, and is engraved on the arch spanning the Long Canal.

Meh... "All animals are equal" was the only rule that didn't get erased, and it was amended eventually. 

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On 9/9/2017 at 6:44 AM, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Ahhh. I never realized lemons needed hot climates to grow. Or that it wouldn't grow in the summer in colder areas. 

 

Some people have been saying that it could be a composite memory. But most people have clear memories of childhood homes. I do, and I know most of the things I remembered were rather accurate after visiting the place years after leaving. But one big difference is that everything looks smaller as an adult. Dany remembers a "big" house, which probably isn't big. Also, the lemon tree she remembers could have been a small plant that looked big to a little girl. It's also possible that it's not the house she's remembering inaccurately, but the location. Not Braavos. It makes sense considering Braavosi hates all things of Old Valyria. How did they raise Targ babies in the same city as Faceless Men? 

That could work but only if you have it growing in a greenhouse, probably a heated one for the cold months. Otherwise the winters in many places would kill the trees. Another option would be a dwarf tree in a large pot that can be taken in the house for winter. 

That's pretty much what I was getting at. I also just had a cute visual of someone tying lemons on a plant near her window just to see her reaction.

Braavos was founded not so much on anti-Valyrian terms but on anti-slavery terms. Given that Westeros under Targaryen rule was anti-slavery, I think they were okay with the Targ kids.

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1 minute ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

That could work but only if you have it growing in a greenhouse, probably a heated one for the cold months. Otherwise the winters in many places would kill the trees. Another option would be a dwarf tree in a large pot that can be taken in the house for winter

That's pretty much what I was getting at. I also just had a cute visual of someone tying lemons on a plant near her window just to see her reaction.

Braavos was founded not so much on anti-Valyrian terms but on anti-slavery terms. Given that Westeros under Targaryen rule was anti-slavery, I think they were okay with the Targ kids.

This is what we did in Alaska and mother still does during winter with her rose bushes. She puts them in the crawl space for hybernation and they turn a really light green color.

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I would only point out that sometimes it is not cold itself but combination of cold and wet that is lethal for some plants. If you can arrange dry cold, some species can survive surprisingly low temperatures.

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Im beginning to think that Dorne was for Rhaegar all along way back when he was thinking of over throwing his father. Dorne having played some part since then, hence their continued interactions after the war. This may have been the very reason Rhaegar married Elia even against his fathers wishes, and why their marriage was loveless. Rhaegar may have wanted the backing all along and a unified position between House Targaryen moving forward and House Dorne, historical pain in the rears. 

Martel and Dayne relations still give me great wonder prior to the war and after, especially given the mysterious Ashara Dayne and her apparent role along the way some wheres. Lemon Trees and a Red Door maybe the link still as there are grass fields mentioned near Starfall that may be the ones Dany ran in as a child. 

Varys and Illyrio still give me wonder and pause. Varys i mention else where seems actually quite loyal to House Targaryen through out the war. Maybe not Rhaegar and thus maybe were unaware of what Rhaegar was really up to, but he seems loyal to Aerys at least and seems to have been worked against by Pycell and Tywin. Pycell who has Basilisk blood in his colllection of goodies as spotted by Tryion may have been poisoning Aerys causing him to go mad as that poison is known to do in the hope of Tywin taking the throne. Varys even warns against Tywins entry into the city despite Pycell advising Aerys to open his doors. 

This gives me even greater wonder about Aegon and Varys's claim that he rescued him and that he his indeed real as his comments to Kevan would seem to imply. 

If Aegon is a Blackfyre, why help Aerys? Unless it's possible that Vary's wanted to over throw Aerys but in his own way and not Pycells? That would certainly put Aerys in a bad position to have 3 separate parties conspiring against him with Rhaegar, Varys and Pycell all seeking different gains.

Team Dorne and Team Varys still seem at odds with each other though.

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On 9/8/2017 at 4:38 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Even then, whats the final? Dorne? Braavos? Either way it contradict what information we have on some level. Even if she was where she thinks, it doesn't add up. Why would they be kicked out of Braavos and Sea Lords Mance just cause Darry died?

If it was Tyrosh, why does she think Braavos. Why is Braavos still involved in the pact? 

The lemon tree may just be a metaphor for Dorne. But still doesn't explain Braavos and Sea Lord or the eviction and subsequent years.

Syrio Forel was the former First Sword of Braavos with previous(?) allegiance to the Sealord of Braavos. Braavos being founded by former slavers, being the home of the many-faced-god sect, and the home of the Ironbank. Because Braavos was founded by former slavers, does not mean that it uses no slaves (official or no) for their own ends (Tyrion mentions we are all slaves to something).

I'm less inclined to think of lemon tree in Braavos when Dany refers to her memories of "Braavos". It's her reference to the building with the red door that I'm interested in. Red. Fire, blood. Metaphorically the red door is the opening to the soul, the heart, the womb, raw - throbbing with life. It's Ghost's eyes, Drogon's eyes, weirwood eyes and leaves. It's the bleeding comet, Ygritte's hair kissed by fire.

In contrast yellow in the text is referred to as something pus-like, plague-ridden or something dying seen to be leaching out colour. It's the colour of mortifying, decaying teeth or bone. It's a sour colour and represents death.

Edited by Weirwood Ghost

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2 hours ago, Weirwood Ghost said:

Syrio Forel was the former First Sword of Braavos

Ive wondered about him before having served the previous one that was witness to that pact. Syrio being free from his duties as the Sea Lord was dead now. Yet, why is Syrio still alive though? Not enough information for me to draw anything, yet. 

 

2 hours ago, Weirwood Ghost said:

It's her reference to the building with the red door that I'm interested in.

So you think it's all strictly metaphorical then? 

 

2 hours ago, Weirwood Ghost said:

In contrast yellow in the text is referred to as something pus-like

How would you fit that into the Baratheon sigil? Have you seen my thoughts on the Stag?

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