Where are all of the cadet branches?

[falcotron]

1 hour ago, DominusNovus said:

Its more surprising there are so many long lived houses, with all that.

That's already surprising just on its own, without anything else. For example, the Starks and Royces are on the order of 10000 years old. Our world rarely has dynasties that approach even a tenth of that, whether you look at medieval Europe, imperial China, ancient Egypt, the Old Testament even read literally…

 

[DominusNovus]

1 minute ago, falcotron said:

That's already surprising just on its own, without anything else. For example, the Starks and Royces are on the order of 10000 years old. Our world rarely has dynasties that approach even a tenth of that, whether you look at medieval Europe, imperial China, ancient Egypt, the Old Testament even read literally…

 

For reference, the Imperial House of Japan is supposedly ~1300 years old. Upstarts by Westerosi standards.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

20 hours ago, Daemon Blackfyre IV said:

Baratheons also have cadet branches House Bolling is definetly a bastard offshoot as they bear the bastard sigil in a quarter of their sigil and House Wensignton also has the Baratheon sigil within its own.

That doesn't make them cadet branches. I'm not sure of all of the details of what the differences are, but I think cadet branches owe something to the main branches that entirely separate houses don't. 

[falcotron]

5 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

That doesn't make them cadet branches. I'm not sure of all of the details of what the differences are, but I think cadet branches owe something to the main branches that entirely separate houses don't. 

Technically, any house founded by a son who isn't an heir is a cadet branch. But in cultures that have strong traditions about cadet branches, the term is usually (especially contemporarily) only used for a subset that fit those traditions.

We don't know all the details for Westeros, but based on what we know, here's my guess:

As in medieval France and England, while any house founded by a second son is technically a cadet house, the term is usually only used (and the standard traditions are only assumed to apply) in for houses founded by appanage from the father or elder brother. In that case, in addition to (usually) being a vassal, you also make a pledge of non-derogation (that is, neither you nor your descendants will do anything to make the senior house look bad).

Bastard houses where the bastard takes a new name and uses bastard heraldry rather than cadet heraldry probably wouldn't have that pledge.

But again, that's really just a guess. (I could explain all the details the guess is based on, but I think that would be more boring than useful.)

[Lady Blizzardborn]

7 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Technically, any house founded by a son who isn't an heir is a cadet branch. But in cultures that have strong traditions about cadet branches, the term is usually (especially contemporarily) only used for a subset that fit those traditions.

We don't know all the details for Westeros, but based on what we know, here's my guess:

As in medieval France and England, while any house founded by a second son is technically a cadet house, the term is usually only used (and the standard traditions are only assumed to apply) in for houses founded by appanage from the father or elder brother. In that case, in addition to (usually) being a vassal, you also make a pledge of non-derogation (that is, neither you nor your descendants will do anything to make the senior house look bad).

Bastard houses where the bastard takes a new name and uses bastard heraldry rather than cadet heraldry probably wouldn't have that pledge.

But again, that's really just a guess. (I could explain all the details the guess is based on, but I think that would be more boring than useful.)

Useful is not all it's cracked up to be. I'd love the details. I'm a total history nerd. Feel free to send them in a PM if you like.

[Nittanian]

On 9/7/2017 at 10:16 PM, DominusNovus said:

Its more surprising there are so many long lived houses, with all that.

My headcanon is that there has been a lot of name-changing going on, like Joffrey Lydden taking on the Lannister name (TWOIAF) or Beren Tallhart possibly taking the Hornwood name (ACOK). 

[Luddagain]

GRRM based much of his story on actual history of the wars of the Roses.

In this case the cadet branches DID effectively die out. The Plantagenet had many sons - Edward III had about 8 sons and five daughters but in the end the Throne went to Henry Tudor the whose mother was a descendant of John of Lancaster's bastard sons, legitimised but low in the order of succession (sorta like Jon).

These families often did not breed well  or sons were lost to war and accident and women to childbirth. Some of the heirs were obviously gay and reluctant to marry. Of course if women were infertile then many a marriage would produce no heirs (eg Henry the VIII).

So NO cadet branches is very, very, very possible.

Actually i think it is part of the story line - ALL the great houses are failing. Time for renewal.

I think EVERY kingdom will be inherited by a bastard (of some kind), or at least people rejected by their fathers.  I think it is the story line

1. Stormlands - inherited by Gendry a bastard unknown even to his father, but still with the Baratheon strength (but I suspect his mother may be also an original descendent of the pre Targ family) 

2. Westerlands - inherited by Tyrion (or his descendents) bastards in his father's eyes and a very non noble figure. However he too is a throw back I suspect to Lan the clever

3. The Reach - already lost to the original line ie the Gardiners, but probably be inherited by another family reject - Sam Tarly who is already third in line for the throne if you assume that the Tyrells were usurpers in the first place

4. The Vale - probably inherited by a boy who is not really the heir ie son of LF. Another bastard

5. Riverlands - well who is the rightful family - the Mudds probably - Ii suspect a wanderer from the Golden Company will take that crown - Either that or Rickon/Bran. Edmure is a "floppy fish" ie he cannot get it up - Roslin is preganant by a Frey

6. Dorne is complex but I suspect that the Daynes will inherit - possibly married to one of the bastard Martells

7. Iron Islands - inherited by Asha - a girl - pretty out there for these warriors

8. Finally of course Jon Snow, the bastard son to inherit the North

 

 

[LindsayLohan]

One more for the list

My man Lothor Brune has been promised lands and a keep in the Riverlands after the conclusion of the war, by Joffrey's decree.  It would be a knightly house, although I suspect Lother the Apple Eater would beat the shit out of anyone that called it a cadet house to the Brunes of Brownhollow. 

[BericDondarrion]

This is answered far more easier then all these essay length posts. Simply GRRM erred on nobility and titles. Like Kevan Lannister shouldn't just be a Ser, being the brother of Tywin/also a son of a great lord he'd be bare minimum an Earl if not a Duke. He needed to add more then Lord and Ser.

[falcotron]

10 minutes ago, BericDondarrion said:

This is answered far more easier then all these essay length posts. Simply GRRM erred on nobility and titles. Like Kevan Lannister shouldn't just be a Ser, being the brother of Tywin/also a son of a great lord he'd be bare minimum an Earl if not a Duke. He needed to add more then Lord and Ser.

He didn't err, he did it intentionally. From an SSM:

Quote

The number of titles of medieval nobility multiplied over times, as the feudal system became more complex and the social structure more layered, with various degrees of precedence, etc. In the earlier periods -- say, England around the time of Henry I and William II Rufus -- all those different titles did not exist. I prefered the simplicity of those times. In hindsight, I probably should have added a least one more title to differentiate the great houses from their vassals, but I am glad I stayed clear of using the whole roster of noble stylings.

His analysis of English history isn't quite right, but he clearly thought about it, and decided that having one or maybe two levels instead of five and a half makes his story better.

[TMIFairy]

On 8.09.2017 at 5:41 AM, DominusNovus said:

For reference, the Imperial House of Japan is supposedly ~1300 years old. Upstarts by Westerosi standards.

And I'm pretty sure succession went through the "distaff line" at some points ...

On 11.09.2017 at 11:17 PM, Luddagain said:

 Of course if women were infertile then many a marriage would produce no heirs (eg Henry the VIII).

And here polygny makes a strong case for itself

[DominusNovus]

10 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

And I'm pretty sure succession went through the "distaff line" at some points ..

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_imperial_family_tree

Peruse at your leisure.

[Wild Bill]

On 9/11/2017 at 9:10 PM, falcotron said:

His analysis of English history isn't quite right, but he clearly thought about it, and decided that having one or maybe two levels instead of five and a half makes his story better.

What titles do we have?

The Hand = Marshall, Chancellor, Chamberlain - combined?

The Master of Coin = Treasurer, the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Maester = ?

Varys (to use the name not the role) = ?

Warden of this or that = Marcher Lords or Warden or Lieutenant or whatever of this or that.

[falcotron]

1 hour ago, Wild Bill said:

What titles do we have?

The Hand = Marshall, Chancellor, Chamberlain - combined?

The Master of Coin = Treasurer, the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Maester = ?

Varys (to use the name not the role) = ?

Warden of this or that = Marcher Lords or Warden or Lieutenant or whatever of this or that.

Most of these are not titles, but positions—jobs you can be given that aren't hereditary, don't give you a corresponding style or honors, and can be taken away at a whim.

Master of Coin seems to be used interchangeably with (Lord) Treasurer, as we see with Gyles Rosby. Likewise for Master of Ships and Grand Admiral, and Master of Laws and Justiciar.

We're given Varys's position explicitly: He's Master of Whisperers. Of course no real-life medieval king had an official position like this, but it's pretty close to, e.g., what Catholics claimed of the Star Council and their investigators under Henry VIII, so it's not hugely anachronistic.

Wardens are a kingdom-wide version of Marcher Lords. Local Marcher Lords also exist. Randyll Tarly is called a Marcher Lord, and the spokesman for the other Marcher Lords of the Reach, and his job is to defend the Reach against brigands or warlords or rebellious lords from Dorne or the Stormlands so the King and the Lord Paramount of the Mander don't have to. But his liege, Mace Tyrell, is Warden of the South, and he's supposed to defend the entire Reach against foreign invaders. (And of course they both have the usual feudal obligations to raise men for their liege, and to keep their own realm orderly.)

Beyond that, I'll just copy what I've posted elsewhere:

The Small Council seems to have automatic positions for at least the following:

• Hand
• Lord Commander of the Kingsguard
• Master of Coin
• Master of Whisperers
• Master of Laws
• Grand Maester
• Regent (if any)

Sometimes the Master of Ships and/or the High Septon are also on the Small Council, sometimes not.

Various Hands have appointed other people to the Small Council without portfolio. Tywin specifically appointed Rowan, Redwyne, and Oberyn Martell as Advisors to the Small Council, which (at least for Oberyn) was definitely a seat on the Council, but it's not clear whether that's the same as being a councilor without portfolio or something different.

After Oberyn's death, his position on the Council seems to have passed to Doran Martell, who sent Nymeria to fill it in his stead, but I suspect that's a unique situation rather than normal procedure.

Under Aegon III, there was a Regency Council instead of a single Regent. As far as I can remember, we're never told whether all of the members were on the Small Council, or they rotated a single position, or what, but it's pretty clear that they all had significant power over the realm, which is why everyone was fighting to be on the Regency Council. Anyway, nobody suggested anything like this for Joffrey or Tommen, so presumably it was a unique case.

There are a number of lower positions mentioned, but they all seem to be under one of the Small Council members. For example, there are four Keepers of the Keys, a King's Counter, and a King's Scales, all of which were independent jobs under the Master of Coin (until Littlefinger filled them with people who either owed him money, or who owed him more something more intangible because he'd had the government lend them money to buy the positions).

There don't seem to actually be any military ranks like General or Marshall. When Tarly leads the Tyrell armies, he's just doing it as one of Tyrell's vassals; when Tywin leads the crown's armies, he's just doing it as some guy who his daughter the King's Regent tacitly allows to do it; etc. GRRM does mention lieutenants and captains in SSMs, but nowhere in the story (except ship captains, which are a different thing).

There are also positions like Castellan and Master underneath Lords. Presumably, you can give those to anyone you want, but there are probably traditions that go with it—if someone runs your castle while you're away, he's a Castellan, and if a family hereditarily runs a castle for you, they're hereditarily either Masters or Stewards, etc.—but they don't seem to be official titles in the sense of a peerage.

Lord Paramount is an actual title, not just a position. Technically, the only Lords Paramount are of the Mander, the Stormlands, and the Trident, because those were granted by Aegon to people who were not Kings bending the knee, but the Lords of Winterfell, the Eyrie, etc. also seem to be entitled to call themselves Lord Paramount.

Warden usually goes along with Lord Paramount, but it clearly doesn't have to, as we see Tywin talk about making Jaime the Warden of the East even though Sweetrobin is still in charge of the Vale.

The Dornish have a special deal where they get to be a royal house with Princes and Princesses, as long as they stay Prince instead of King when they inherit Dorne. Since the Seven Kingdoms are actually still called Kingdom, Dorne is probably a Kingdom rather than a Principality, but as far as I know GRRM's only answer was "I'd have to research the historical difference to answer that".

Of course the King's children are Princes and Princesses, and his wife is a Queen. Sometimes a King's firstborn son's own children are also called Prince and Princess, sometimes they aren't. It's not clear whether an heir presumptive who's not a son is a Prince—but when the North became a separate kingdom, they called Bran a Prince, so my guess is that it's the same for the Iron Throne. They must have established a title and style for the husband of a regnant Queen (the Blacks had to call Daemon something, unless they just left him as Prince because he'd already been using that as his father's father's grandson?), but as far as I know we've never seen what it is.

The only other peerage title besides King, Queen, Prince, Princess, and Lord Paramount is Lord.

And that goes for (translated?) titles from Essos. There are things they translate as military ranks (sergeant, lieutenant), but nothing they translate as Duke or Marquis.

Sometimes, the children of Lords are called Lord as a courtesy, even if they aren't heirs. This seems to be up to the current Lord, but nobody complains if you give someone a courtesy they don't deserve. Some people keep getting called Lord even after a nephew takes the lordship, but it seems less common.

Not all hereditary lands have a Lordship to go with them—the leader of a knightly house is just Ser even if it's landed and hereditary, and there are also 

Anyone who's knighted by another knight or by the king is entitled to be called Ser. A Northerner can be knighted the same way as a Southerner, it just doesn't happen as often.

Squire and page seem to be positions that don't have associated titles or styles. GRRM points out that there are middle-aged squires in Westeros, as in many real-life medieval countries, who basically serve as the equivalent of corporals and sergeants of lords' and knights' armies. Any master-at-arms or similar position that isn't filled by a knight is filled by a squire (except, presumably, in the North?).

Essos obviously has different systems. There are sergeants and lieutenants in some Sellsword companies, Pentos is technically a Principality, etc. They might actually have more titles that the Westerosi just don't bother to distinguish between, for all we know.

[Wild Bill]

13 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Most of these are not titles, but positions—jobs you can be given that aren't hereditary, don't give you a corresponding style or honors, and can be taken away at a whim.

Master of Coin seems to be used interchangeably with (Lord) Treasurer, as we see with Gyles Rosby. Likewise for Master of Ships and Grand Admiral, and Master of Laws and Justiciar.

We're given Varys's position explicitly: He's Master of Whisperers. Of course no real-life medieval king had an official position like this, but it's pretty close to, e.g., what Catholics claimed of the Star Council and their investigators under Henry VIII, so it's not hugely anachronistic.

Wardens are a kingdom-wide version of Marcher Lords. Local Marcher Lords also exist. Randyll Tarly is called a Marcher Lord, and the spokesman for the other Marcher Lords of the Reach, and his job is to defend the Reach against brigands or warlords or rebellious lords from Dorne or the Stormlands so the King and the Lord Paramount of the Mander don't have to. But his liege, Mace Tyrell, is Warden of the South, and he's supposed to defend the entire Reach against foreign invaders. (And of course they both have the usual feudal obligations to raise men for their liege, and to keep their own realm orderly.)

Ah, nice precision on title vs position. And, duh, I forgot about the Star Chamber.

Thank you for all the bits I haven't quoted.

[Reekazoid]

 There aren't more great house nobles around because the maesters have prevented it.

 If there is in fact a  conspiracy amongst the maesters, as has been speculated by some, a decrease in fertility and  successful pregnancies amongst the nobility could be one facet of it.

 Aegon's conquest would have given them a golden opportunity... For the first time in the history of Westeros, all the political power rested with one family, one which every other great house would want to marry into.

Within a relatively short time, the Citadel would have a Grand Maester at court and effective oversight of much of the communication between the nobility by way of ravens.  This would let them influence betrothals and marriage alliances like no one else  before them.

Medieval eugenics via maesterial marriage meddling. Perhaps intentionally encouraging propagation of less fertile bloodlines, and poorly compatible genetic mixes. 

And of course having a maester installed in a position of trust in every castle of consequence  would allow the subtle administration of any drugs or poisons needed to ensure that the great houses don't have too many viable conceptions or live births.

Eventually there wouldn't  be enough potential heirs or cadet branches for  the nobility to weather crises, and house by house, the whole order would crumble and be replaced with something more compatible with the world the Citadel is building.

 The foreshadowing would be the way the maesters killed off the dragons.

 If, you know, they did kill the dragons, and if, you know, there is  a master maester conspiracy at all.

 I'm not saying there is.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TMIFairy]

14 hours ago, DominusNovus said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_imperial_family_tree

Peruse at your leisure.

Thank you. Now I only need to figure out which is a boy and which a girl

[falcotron]

3 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

Thank you. Now I only need to figure out which is a boy and which a girl

I believe there are 8 reigning empresses, and the first is named Suiko, but I can't remember when she was. So, search for her, and then from her down you probably have to click on every name. (There are a few endings that are very rare for male names, but really no endings that are rare for female names.) And of course I may be wrong, in which case you have to click on everyone, not just her down.

[PrinceHenryris]

26 minutes ago, Reekazoid said:

 There aren't more great house nobles around because the maesters have prevented it.

 If there is in fact a  conspiracy amongst the maesters, as has been speculated by some, a decrease in fertility and  successful pregnancies amongst the nobility could be one facet of it.

 Aegon's conquest would have given them a golden opportunity... For the first time in the history of Westeros, all the political power rested with one family, one which every other great house would want to marry into.

Within a relatively short time, the Citadel would have a Grand Maester at court and effective oversight of much of the communication between the nobility by way of ravens.  This would let them influence betrothals and marriage alliances like no one else  before them.

Medieval eugenics via maesterial marriage meddling. Perhaps intentionally encouraging propagation of less fertile bloodlines, and poorly compatible genetic mixes. 

And of course having a maester installed in a position of trust in every castle of consequence  would allow the subtle administration of any drugs or poisons needed to ensure that the great houses don't have too many viable conceptions or live births.

Eventually there wouldn't  be enough potential heirs or cadet branches for  the nobility to weather crises, and house by house, the whole order would crumble and be replaced with something more compatible with the world the Citadel is building.

 The foreshadowing would be the way the maesters killed off the dragons.

 If, you know, they did kill the dragons, and if, you know, there is  a master maester conspiracy at all.

 I'm not saying there is.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I kind of like the this.

 

Not sure why.

[TMIFairy]

25 minutes ago, falcotron said:

I believe there are 8 reigning empresses, and the first is named Suiko, but I can't remember when she was. So, search for her, and then from her down you probably have to click on every name. (There are a few endings that are very rare for male names, but really no endings that are rare for female names.) And of course I may be wrong, in which case you have to click on everyone, not just her down.

Thank you!

The part which I bolded is the one I was fearing