Are there any other examples besides the Arryns, Of surviving descendants becoming the new ruling lord?

[Frey Kings]

If all the family members die off, are there are surviving descendants of other family members who can fill the vacant seat?

[Joey Crows]

12 minutes ago, StraightFromAsshai said:

If all the family members die off, are there are surviving descendants of other family members who can fill the vacant seat?

I'm assuming you're referencing the Harry The Heir situation in The Vale?

If so, interesting question. I feel it would take a deep dive into the various branches of all the families to find a potential little known bastard. The most obvious candidate would probs be the Baratheons. Gendry and Mya immediately come to mind.

[Frey Kings]

Targaryen after chapter 46 in the first book not counting all the secret Targs running around. If Daenerys died, does that mean Rhaelle Targaryen's grandkids Stannis or Renly can become the head of Targaryens?

 

Here are where the Targaryens went off and got married, not in chronology order...

Quote

The Riverlands: The Harroway's, The Blackwood's and the Bracken's.

The Reach: Hightower, Costayne

Vale: Arryn

The Stormlands: Baratheon, Dondarion, Penrose,

Dorne: Martell, Dayne

Crownlands: Velaryon

Essos: Rogare, zo Loraq

Westerlands: Plumm, Westerling

None from either the North or the Iron Islands.

Egg had two sister's, but we don't know which house they were married to. Possibly one was married to a Tarth (mentioned to have ties to the Targaryen family) but I have no idea where the other could have gone.

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

19 minutes ago, StraightFromAsshai said:

If all the family members die off, are there are surviving descendants of other family members who can fill the vacant seat?

There is always a relative, or a bastard

[falcotron]

Look at the Hornwood case in ACoK, after Halys Hornwood and his only child, Daryn, die.

If it were just a matter of "the law", and that law were the same one applied to most modern British titles, the title would go to Brandon Tallhart, the eldest son of Halys's sister. But nobody even considers that.

What actually happens is that Halys's widow Donella inherits, and then she comes to Bran (as King Robb's castellan) to rule on the succession after her (since she obviously also has no children).

Bran, Rodrik, and Maester Luwin talk about a number of options, and discuss them in purely pragmatic terms.

They could give it to Brandon's younger brother Beren, which would keep it in the family, and without giving Brandon two titles, but Beren isn't named Hornwood, and as a young boy he's too weak to defend his lands against Bolton incursions. Donella could adopt him as a Hornwood, but that only solves the first problem.

They could legitimize Halys's bastard son Larence Snow, but other houses might resent giving the Hornwood title to a man who's been raised as a Glover.

They could find Donella a new husband who could inherit from her, but she doesn't like their suggestion of Mors Umber, and her choice of Rodrik doesn't help because he has no sons.

Meanwhile, Wyman Manderly suggests that, as both Halys's cousin and his direct liege, he should inherit and be free to re-grant the title (presumably to one of his second sons or nephews).

Presumably Bran could also just rule the house in abeyance and re-grant the title himself, but nobody even brings this up. And giving it to Halys's sister also isn't considered, presumably because she's already Lady Tallhart.

When Ramsay kidnaps Donella, forces her to marry him, then starves her to death, Rodrik and Luwin reluctantly conclude that as long as the marriage was legal (and, presumably, as long as nobody can convict him of murder), he's the heir.

There's also talk of Donella writing a will, so apparently those have some force in convincing people.

And of course once Robb dies, King Joffrey has no interest in whatever Bran may have decided. Wyman Manderly uses his claim as a bargaining chip, and is given peace and pardon in exchange for accepting Ramsay as Lord Hornwood.

So, this is what generally happens when someone dies unexpectedly without heirs.

In the case of Sweetrobin, everyone expects him to die without heirs, and House Arryn's titles are a whole lot more important to a lot of people than House Hornwood's, so the Lords of the Vale went out of their way to resolve things in advance and make sure everyone agrees. That's probably not very common, but I'm sure it's not the only time it's ever happened.

Of course even getting everyone to agree in advance doesn't guarantee there will be no problems. Most famously, Viserys I got everyone to swear to Rhaenyra as his heir, and half of them still rose up in civil war anyway. But it's still probably a good idea.

[Frey Kings]

45 minutes ago, Joey Crows said:

I'm assuming you're referencing the Harry The Heir situation in The Vale?

If so, interesting question. I feel it would take a deep dive into the various branches of all the families to find a potential little known bastard. The most obvious candidate would probs be the Baratheons. Gendry and Mya immediately come to mind.

Edric Storm lucked out by having both high born parents. I think people would rather pick the female's line with a different name than a bastard.

[Frey Kings]

55 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Look at the Hornwood case in ACoK, after Halys Hornwood and his only child, Daryn, die.

If it were just a matter of "the law", and that law were the same one applied to most modern British titles, the title would go to Brandon Tallhart, the eldest son of Halys's sister. But nobody even considers that.

What actually happens is that Halys's widow Donella inherits, and then she comes to Bran (as King Robb's castellan) to rule on the succession after her (since she obviously also has no children).

Bran, Rodrik, and Maester Luwin talk about a number of options, and discuss them in purely pragmatic terms.

They could give it to Brandon's younger brother Beren, which would keep it in the family, and without giving Brandon two titles, but Beren isn't named Hornwood, and as a young boy he's too weak to defend his lands against Bolton incursions. Donella could adopt him as a Hornwood, but that only solves the first problem.

They could legitimize Halys's bastard son Larence Snow, but other houses might resent giving the Hornwood title to a man who's been raised as a Glover.

They could find Donella a new husband who could inherit from her, but she doesn't like their suggestion of Mors Umber, and her choice of Rodrik doesn't help because he has no sons.

Meanwhile, Wyman Manderly suggests that, as both Halys's cousin and his direct liege, he should inherit and be free to re-grant the title (presumably to one of his second sons or nephews).

Presumably Bran could also just rule the house in abeyance and re-grant the title himself, but nobody even brings this up. And giving it to Halys's sister also isn't considered, presumably because she's already Lady Tallhart.

When Ramsay kidnaps Donella, forces her to marry him, then starves her to death, Rodrik and Luwin reluctantly conclude that as long as the marriage was legal (and, presumably, as long as nobody can convict him of murder), he's the heir.

There's also talk of Donella writing a will, so apparently those have some force in convincing people.

And of course once Robb dies, King Joffrey has no interest in whatever Bran may have decided. Wyman Manderly uses his claim as a bargaining chip, and is given peace and pardon in exchange for accepting Ramsay as Lord Hornwood.

So, this is what generally happens when someone dies unexpectedly without heirs.

In the case of Sweetrobin, everyone expects him to die without heirs, and House Arryn's titles are a whole lot more important to a lot of people than House Hornwood's, so the Lords of the Vale went out of their way to resolve things in advance and make sure everyone agrees. That's probably not very common, but I'm sure it's not the only time it's ever happened.

Of course even getting everyone to agree in advance doesn't guarantee there will be no problems. Most famously, Viserys I got everyone to swear to Rhaenyra as his heir, and half of them still rose up in civil war anyway. But it's still probably a good idea.

Blood right, Birth right

Legitimizing bastards would create all sorts of problems.

It should've been passed off to the closet kin of Halys Hornwood. Neither Lady Donella's will or wishes should not be considered as she does not Hornwood blood. That leaves his sister, Lady Tallhart. But the 2nd son is not set on inheriting anything. If anyone has a problem. He is ruling his mother's and uncle's lands. His children should be named Hornwood for inheritance sake. If the Boltons continue to prey, they should be punished.

 

Leave all the pettiness and personal drama out.

[falcotron]

2 hours ago, StraightFromAsshai said:

Blood right, Birth right

Legitimizing bastards would create all sorts of problems.

It should've been passed off to the closet kin of Halys Hornwood. Neither Lady Donella's will or wishes should not be considered as she does not Hornwood blood. That leaves his sister, Lady Tallhart. But the 2nd son is not set on inheriting anything. If anyone has a problem. He is ruling his mother's and uncle's lands. His children should be named Hornwood for inheritance sake. If the Boltons continue to prey, they should be punished.

 

Leave all the pettiness and personal drama out.

I'm not sure if you're saying that a Lord Paramount's Maester and castellan are completely wrong about how things work in Westeros and you somehow know better than them, or suggesting that they should completely change the way Westeros works, but either way, a feudal system could not work the way you're suggesting.

[Frey Kings]

1 hour ago, falcotron said:

I'm not sure if you're saying that a Lord Paramount's Maester and castellan are completely wrong about how things work in Westeros and you somehow know better than them, or suggesting that they should completely change the way Westeros works, but either way, a feudal system could not work the way you're suggesting.

You're right, Nothing would work in that scenario and the time has passed to pass off Larence Snow as a true born son.

[DominusNovus]

The Tyrells are a perfect example of this, aren't they? House Gardener was incinerated, so they inherited.

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

Ronald Storm might be the reason bastard's are disenherited lol he claimed the crown though he did marry his half sister.

 

I often think of House Dustin, who inherits it ?

[falcotron]

40 minutes ago, Daemon Blackfyre IV said:

I often think of House Dustin, who inherits it ?

We don't know.

It doesn't seem likely that the widow Barbrey or her liege Ned found an underage Dustin second cousin or anything to name as her heir, because if they had, he'd be a grown man and probably involved in the story right now.

It's always possible that she never designated an heir at all, Ned never tried to force the issue out of guilt over Willam, and Roose hasn't tried to force the issue because he's got bigger fish to fry and she's too useful to annoy, so when she dies there will be a succession problem, and whoever's Lord of Winterfell will have to handle it then.

But my best guess is that she's designated her younger brother Rickard as her heir. Barrow Hall does seem important enough that someone might challenge it, but Ned could have heard the case and accepted it, and I wouldn't expect Barbrey to just forget her grudge against Ned because of that. And I can imagine that, since Rickard was a grown man or close to it at the time, there was no question of her adopting him as a Dustin, so it's not at all strange that he's out commanding troops as a Ryswell in the mean time. (And… didn't Theon see him and Roger jointly commanding joint Dustin and Ryswell troops at Moat Cailin? I'll have to check.) He could well decide to start a Ryswell of Barrowton cadet house instead of changing his name even on succeeding her.

But that's just my best guess, with very little to go on

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

Ya that's where I was on things, at least with Rosby we have a ward to consider but here we have nothing.

[falcotron]

20 hours ago, DominusNovus said:

The Tyrells are a perfect example of this, aren't they? House Gardener was incinerated, so they inherited.

I think the OP is asking about cases like Sweetrobin: If he dies without producing any heirs, they've found a descendant of the late Lord Jasper Arryn to take over the house, and become the new ruling lord as Harold Arryn, even though he was born a Hardyng.

That isn't what happened with the Tyrells. Nobody inherited House Gardener; Aegon just declared the house dead and the title in abeyance and re-granted it to the Harlen Tyrell.

And that's exactly what the Vale Lords are hoping to avoid by supporting Harry. They don't want to ask Tommen/Stannis/Aegon/whoever to declare House Arryn dead and re-grant the Vale to someone else.