Davos the Dragonslayer

Who will be accused for Kevan's and Pycelle's death?

48 posts in this topic

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Varys doesn't have to have Faceless Men to be quite deadly. Keep in mind that this men didn't rise from the gutters - from being a slave - to the very top, and he did that basically as a crime lord. Varys must have killed more than his share of people with his own hands back in the day - both in Myr and in Pentos.

He isn't necessarily the best fighter in town but he should be a very capable and deadly assassin - especially since his public persona comes off as harmless and cowardly.

Good point, though I was quibbling about specific training by the Faceless Man.

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47 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

There are no direct hints in the text but we've seen him employ certain tricks and talents that seem to correspond rather well to what we see Arya learning, first from Syrio and then at the House of Black and White.

Arya learns to move silently. Varys is so soft of foot that he startles people, coming seemingly out of nowhere.

Arya learns to calm her emotions. Varys never loses his cool.

Arya learns to recognize when people are trying to trick her. Varys always knows when someone's lying or pulling a fast one.

Arya learns to find her way without the use of her eyes. Varys can move about freely with and without torches to light his way--how else did he learn the secrets of the Red Keep? Unless you want to argue he has dragonblood, and I'm fine with that but it shouldn't guarantee flawless navigation of the RK.

Arya learns to pay attention and gather information, even information that may seem trivial. Varys is the ultimate in reading people and gathering secrets. Quite frankly his little birds are trained to do the same things--be silent, be unseen, get around no matter the lighting, gather information. 

Arya's latest phase of training is with a mummer's troupe so she can learn how to change not only her appearance, but her voice, her mannerisms, her very movements. Varys assumes various identities easily, using the very same tricks, and we already know from him that he was with a company of mummers in his youth. He claims the mummers sold him to a man who cut off his parts and threw them in the flames, but what if he's embellishing the tale a bit to disguise part of the truth? The Faceless Men demand all, you must give up all of yourself. It wouldn't be remotely surprising if that included certain body parts for boys, and the ability to have children for girls. If those things are taken away, you are far less likely to compromise your mission due to some romantic nonsense. You will have fully become No One. My guess is Varys decided that was a bridge too far for him and he left before the final graduation.

...

Your last paragraph, as I have posted (deleting a couple of references to other posts), however, makes a jump into unsupported water. One conjecture is that Vary's implies he's done anything and everything in his young life, so he may have picked up a lot of skills on his own (vaguely supported by the books), vs the other conjecture of Vary's being a trainee with the Faceless Man, with lots of ephemera to support that (but not supported by the books). And, further, spy-craft is spy-craft - the coincidence of one character trained by X (Faceless Man in this case) using it is not proof that another character using it must, therefor, have been trained by the the same X.

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Cersei is never alone. As we see in DWD epilogue she is always with septas who can prove she was in her chambers when Pycelle died and had supper with Kevan in friendly terms. 

Tyrells on the other hand will seem more guilty. Pycelle had told about the moon tea and Kevan was taking power from them.This could affect Margaery's trial.

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7 hours ago, Wild Bill said:

 And, further, spy-craft is spy-craft - the coincidence of one character trained by X (Faceless Man in this case) using it is not proof that another character using it must, therefor, have been trained by the the same X.

Judging by his footwork, Varys might have had a few lessons in Water Dancing from Illyrio over the years. Does Arya not make reference to "roof rats" or some parkour-ish types in Braavos? These types of skills, along with his tumbling/mummers training could certainly help with the spiders Spy-Craft.

On the other hand there is a great chance that he and Illyrio have some kind of FM connection.

2 hours ago, Endymion I Targaryen said:

Cersei is never alone. As we see in DWD epilogue she is always with septas who can prove she was in her chambers when Pycelle died and had supper with Kevan in friendly terms. 

Tyrells on the other hand will seem more guilty. Pycelle had told about the moon tea and Kevan was taking power from them.This could affect Margaery's trial.

Who do you think will be the accuser when the bodies are found?

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5 hours ago, Endymion I Targaryen said:

Cersei is never alone. As we see in DWD epilogue she is always with septas who can prove she was in her chambers when Pycelle died and had supper with Kevan in friendly terms. 

Tyrells on the other hand will seem more guilty. Pycelle had told about the moon tea and Kevan was taking power from them.This could affect Margaery's trial.

The fact that she's got an alibi doesn't really matter because no one will think she actually committed the crime herself. Cersei also has a history of having people murdered though, including those in positions of power, like the previous High Septon and King Robert. It's totally reasonable for her assume she found a way to have them both killed, in order to frame the Tyrells and Tyrion. Doran will certainly believe that since he believes she was willing to have his son killed for the same reason.

Plus - She's despised and people adore the Tyrells. That alone is enough to put her in the frame, at least with the smallfolk.

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22 hours ago, Wild Bill said:

Your last paragraph, as I have posted (deleting a couple of references to other posts), however, makes a jump into unsupported water. One conjecture is that Vary's implies he's done anything and everything in his young life, so he may have picked up a lot of skills on his own (vaguely supported by the books), vs the other conjecture of Vary's being a trainee with the Faceless Man, with lots of ephemera to support that (but not supported by the books). And, further, spy-craft is spy-craft - the coincidence of one character trained by X (Faceless Man in this case) using it is not proof that another character using it must, therefor, have been trained by the the same X.

Of course not, but how likely is it that there are any self-taught spymasters in this storyworld?

All but the first two sentences of said last paragraph were my thoughts on the matter. Until the series is finished we're going to be doing lots of jumping into unsupported water with our thoughts on what reveals are yet forthcoming. Though maybe I should say until the next book comes out. Undoubtedly some surprises and reveals are in store for us in TWOW.

Was there anything before "Your last paragraph, as I have posted..."? I'm wondering because the use of "however" makes it seem like you had something to say about the other paragraphs, and that part somehow did not post.

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23 hours ago, Wild Bill said:
51 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Of course not, but how likely is it that there are any self-taught spymasters in this storyworld?

All but the first two sentences of said last paragraph were my thoughts on the matter. Until the series is finished we're going to be doing lots of jumping into unsupported water with our thoughts on what reveals are yet forthcoming. Though maybe I should say until the next book comes out. Undoubtedly some surprises and reveals are in store for us in TWOW.

Was there anything before "Your last paragraph, as I have posted..."? I'm wondering because the use of "however" makes it seem like you had something to say about the other paragraphs, and that part somehow did not post.

 

I pointed out the "last paragraph" as it seems to be an equivalence between Arya's overt training and your "presumed training" of Varys.

I see the grammatical error in my post, so  however is a mistake and not "operative", as it were... ;)

Edited by Wild Bill

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On 17/9/2017 at 3:07 PM, Leo of House Cartel said:

Who do you think will be the accuser when the bodies are found?

Probably Tyrells.

On 17/9/2017 at 6:30 PM, UnFit Finlay said:

The fact that she's got an alibi doesn't really matter because no one will think she actually committed the crime herself. Cersei also has a history of having people murdered though, including those in positions of power, like the previous High Septon and King Robert. It's totally reasonable for her assume she found a way to have them both killed, in order to frame the Tyrells and Tyrion. Doran will certainly believe that since he believes she was willing to have his son killed for the same reason.

Plus - She's despised and people adore the Tyrells. That alone is enough to put her in the frame, at least with the smallfolk.

Cersei and her interactions are being watched. She must speak to someone to arrange the murders. Plus it doesn't look logical for Cersei to murder the last remaining Lannister allies in King's Landing. If Cersei was to murder someone it would be Lancel and Kettleblacks who can prove her guilt.

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