falcotron

How does "magic blood" work?

137 posts in this topic

18 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Dany also notices that Drogon's hide/scales gets too thick for the whip to hurt. And he's only like 2 years old! Maybe these whipping descriptions come from an earlier draft. How would you saddle an enormous dragon anyway?

Well, the idea is that the magical dragonbond is what helps you control a dragon. A whip or your hands and feet are just means to make it realize where it is supposed to fly. I guess.

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@AlaskanSandman
Targs losing warging abilities--that is a really interesting point. This could be the fire and ice connection that's in Jon if the theory is true (it probably is). But Targs did manage to control dragons still. The skin changing thing seems to be a FM thing. Unless they learned it from Valyrians and didn't invent it themselves. 

I think there are Valyrian bloodlines in the south (Dorne) that are not related to the Targs. This goes waaay back to when the Others first came. AWOIAF mentions the Seastone chair and another place where the stonework seems to be melted similar to how other dragonfire artifacts are made. So it's possible the original dragon riders came to westeros, teamed up with the children or whomever else was there to keep Others away. It would have been necessary because back then the two continents were connected through Dorne. But later that land bridge disappears with the Breaking. So the mysterious third "race" who existed in Westeros could be the original Valyrians, or the people from the "Shadow" who taught Valyrians how to ride dragons. 

Also, Rhaenys, Aegon I's beloved wife, disappears in Dorne during the conquest. Her dragon Meraxes is downed by an arrow into the eye. But Rhaenys's body is never found. The later, the Dornish prince sends Aegon a mysterious letter calling for peace. When he reads it, he clutches it in his hand until the palm bleeds. He goes into his room, and comes back with a peace agreement for the Dornish. This makes the maesters speculate that Rhaenys alive but captured in Dorne. Ashara Dayne has purplish eyes like a Targ. So it's possible Rhaenys's bloodline is surviving in Dorne. Also, her family has Dawn, a major contender for the actual lightbringer. So they could be connected to the Valyrians in some way too. 

Maybe GRRM said that 1/10th of a thing to indicate how little of the original Valyrian bloodline exists in the world now. And that means the fire magic is pretty much gone from the world. The Others are coming, and there's a good chunk of human knowledge and magic that is gone from the world possibly forever. So humans might as well call themselves wights now. Unless Dany figures out whatever is in her that made the dragon hatching possible. 

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58 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

@AlaskanSandman
Targs losing warging abilities--that is a really interesting point. This could be the fire and ice connection that's in Jon if the theory is true (it probably is). But Targs did manage to control dragons still. The skin changing thing seems to be a FM thing. Unless they learned it from Valyrians and didn't invent it themselves. 

I think there are Valyrian bloodlines in the south (Dorne) that are not related to the Targs. This goes waaay back to when the Others first came. AWOIAF mentions the Seastone chair and another place where the stonework seems to be melted similar to how other dragonfire artifacts are made. So it's possible the original dragon riders came to westeros, teamed up with the children or whomever else was there to keep Others away. It would have been necessary because back then the two continents were connected through Dorne. But later that land bridge disappears with the Breaking. So the mysterious third "race" who existed in Westeros could be the original Valyrians, or the people from the "Shadow" who taught Valyrians how to ride dragons. 

Also, Rhaenys, Aegon I's beloved wife, disappears in Dorne during the conquest. Her dragon Meraxes is downed by an arrow into the eye. But Rhaenys's body is never found. The later, the Dornish prince sends Aegon a mysterious letter calling for peace. When he reads it, he clutches it in his hand until the palm bleeds. He goes into his room, and comes back with a peace agreement for the Dornish. This makes the maesters speculate that Rhaenys alive but captured in Dorne. Ashara Dayne has purplish eyes like a Targ. So it's possible Rhaenys's bloodline is surviving in Dorne. Also, her family has Dawn, a major contender for the actual lightbringer. So they could be connected to the Valyrians in some way too. 

Maybe GRRM said that 1/10th of a thing to indicate how little of the original Valyrian bloodline exists in the world now. And that means the fire magic is pretty much gone from the world. The Others are coming, and there's a good chunk of human knowledge and magic that is gone from the world possibly forever. So humans might as well call themselves wights now. Unless Dany figures out whatever is in her that made the dragon hatching possible. 

The idea is that its akin to the Starks and their Direwolves, but different. I talk more in a thread i did about this, but long and short is that the o.g. skinchanger bred Wyvern and Firewyrms via skinchanging into them and breaking the rule laid down by Varamyr to us. Part of his soul/spirit/blood went it the resulting dragon. Hence they are kin. I also theorize that telepathy and telekinesis is the only real magic we're seeing and that the Valyrians controlled them through nudges like a reign or spurs, but telepathically nudging them. This is why they can fly them and direct them, but are never actually warged into them. 

This is why the Valyrians practiced inbreeding for so long as a means to keep this power in their blood. Power they likely received during the pact when i believe humans and CotF first bred, allowing humans to access the power of the trees. 

This seems to have been interfered with by the Maesters of the Septons in forcing the Targaryens to give up both incest and polygamy. Cutting down their chances of having kids and chances that kid will retain the power. Which may have been what the Dance of Dragons was really about, preserving the line. To which it seems like they did, but some how didn't. Which makes it a lil hard to figure out. The Idea is that hatching and riding abilities are limited to women, where as men can only ride. The idea goes further that this is why certain women may have been special and sought after for marriage. Like when Maegor wanted his niece. So the issue becomes trying to figure out which of them was special. Tedious to say the least. 

Either way after the war, no more dragons were born and they all died out.

Some speculate that that is what the Blackfyre rebellion was over. The Blackfyres got the gene, but as they never hatched dragons, it's unknown. 

The ancient families having ties i agree with. Id say any one associated to Garth the Green, House Hightower, the Iron Islanders, and House Dayne. Any one associated with Garth cover Houses Lannister, Durrandon, Stark, and Gardener to name the more important ones. Likely they were part of the Empire of the Dawn and definitely had dragons. Aside from the fact that the first Hightowers, who were already there when the first men arrived, killed dragons who roosted on Battle Isle prior to their arrival. Theres more dragons that pop up much later. As Uthor Hightower, who is a later Hightower than the first, wed Maris the Maid, daughter of Garth the Green. Uthors children with her go on to found the Citidel. Uthor commissions Bran the Builder who lived through the Long Night. Garth the Gardener is also a son of Garth the Green and his first son. Interesting not.

*Brandon the Builder builds the wall, presumably after the war for the dawn. 

*The TWOIAF list 4 knights from the age of heroes and the kings they serve. 

Serwyn of the Mirror Shield              Garth V the Hammer of the Dornish- Serwyn killed dragon Urrax and was a Kings Guard 

Davos Dragon Slayer                       Gwayne I the Gallant

Roland of the Horn                           Gyles I the Woe-Sacked Old Town selling 3/4 peoples into slavery.

The Knight with out Armor               Gareth II the Grim-Killed by Harron Harlaw (father Erich V took and lost fair Isle) beneath walls of Old Town

                                                                              Garth VI the Morningstar- died in battle against the Ironborn

                                                                              Gordan I Grey Eyes

All four are knights when there shouldn't be knights, one a Kings Guard member before there is supposed to be one, and 2 of the Knights are dragon slayers. 

Mean time the kings they serve are all after the Long Night and Great Bottle Neck. 2 of the Kings having battle with the Iron Born, one beneath the walls of Old Town. One king fighting Old Town it self. There is a big misconception that the Age of Heroes ended with the Long Night, when actually it ended with the coming of the Andals were told. Yet even that seems at odds with the evidence as clearly we have knights, Tourneys, Alyssa Arryn being a tale from the Age of Heros, yet the Arryns supposedly not around during age of heroes. Cause soon as i mention the Winged Knight and Falcon Knight as being the same, lots of people go huh. Nooooo, the book says they're just mixed up. Im working on putting together a thread where i plan on linking actual info from the books to construct a rough time line i believe to be truer and shorter by a couple thousand years. 

Edited by AlaskanSandman
Garth morning star from V to VI.

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A child dies, in the womb, fresh out of it maybe, that child's soul seems to trade places with that of the thing the blood bond is being established with. When the child has second lifed the thing that thing then becomes more susceptible to either being skinchanged or second lifed by those with the same blood as that child. Thus Rhaego's deformities.

If the child is in the womb while it trades souls then the mother who shares blood with the child in her womb will have her blood tainted with the thing that was second lifed, should she survive. Thus Dany surviving the funeral pyre. The taint will carry on through other children the mother then has, tainting whole family lines. Thus Targaryen dragon like deformities.

Obviously the child can be killed on purpose, sacrifice, to achieve the desired results. Hence Falia and how Euron is going to get into a kraken. It is the meaning of this line.

Quote

The Grey King ruled the sea itself and took a mermaid to wife, so his sons and daughters might live above the waves or beneath them as they chose.

Why it has to be a newly born or unborn baby I don't know, but it will likely be the same reason why the Others were taking Craster's babies.

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As far as using whips to control dragons, perhaps the whip itself isn't what matters - the whip is merely a tool used to express the mental intent/direction, and to focus/strengthen the thought sufficiently that the dragon receives it. Perhaps a rider with a stronger bond or stronger skinchanger/dragonrider/whatever abilities would be able to direct the dragon purely by thought, without need to turn to other tools to assist them.

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5 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Ashara Dayne has purplish eyes like a Targ.

SSM:

Quote
Ran Ashara Dayne is described as having violet eyes. Is this from a marriage to the Martells after Daeron II's sister married into that line, thus giving them some Targaryen features? From other Valyrian descendants? …
George_RR_Martin … As for the violet eyes . . .look, Elizabeth Taylor has violet eyes, and she's not of Valyrian descent (that I know). Nor is she related to Aegon the Conquerer. Many Swedes have blue eyes, but not all those with blue eyes are Swedes, and not all Swedes have blue eyes. The same confusions exist in the 7 Kingdoms.

 

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43 minutes ago, falcotron said:

SSM:

 

So do you think they're proto Valyrians or do you think its just a random feature? I lean towards the proto-Valyrian but think it would be just as well that it was just a random feature they share. As i suspect the dragons hatching had very little to do with Dany herself. 

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53 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

As far as using whips to control dragons, perhaps the whip itself isn't what matters - the whip is merely a tool used to express the mental intent/direction, and to focus/strengthen the thought sufficiently that the dragon receives it. Perhaps a rider with a stronger bond or stronger skinchanger/dragonrider/whatever abilities would be able to direct the dragon purely by thought, without need to turn to other tools to assist them.

Could be, or something that developed after their power and blood began to be diluted too much?

 

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3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Could be, or something that developed after their power and blood began to be diluted too much?

 

That's likely much the same thing, effectively, anyways.

As far as potentially using sorcery and/or dragonbinding horns, presumably they would either create a dragon bond when someone can't normally make a dragon bond, or compensate for/strengthen a weaker dragon bond, allowing for pure mental control.

Or, sorcery/dragonbinding horns to infuse the beneficiary with additional magical power, taken from elsewhere

 

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5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So do you think they're proto Valyrians or do you think its just a random feature? I lean towards the proto-Valyrian but think it would be just as well that it was just a random feature they share. As i suspect the dragons hatching had very little to do with Dany herself. 

tl;dr: I don't think we need to assume any magic here, or any wild coincidences. Targaryens have purple eyes because they're descended from 40 families that concentrated purple eye genes for 5000 years, and have been marrying mostly incestuously in the 400 years since. Ashara and Gerald have purple eyes because one of the recent ancestors we don't know about had purple eyes (maybe a Targaryen or Velaryon) and about a quarter of her descendants do. All normal genetics, and the big mystery people are trying to solve isn't a mystery at all, and the proto-Valyrian solution wouldn't be a solution even if it were.

Since there are a lot of points here, I'll number them.

---

1a: Remember that we're told that purple eyes aren't unique to the Valyrian dragonlord families, they're just very rare among other people and common among the dragonlords.

1b: We don't actually have any indication that Daynes historically have purple eyes. All we know from the books is that Ashara and Gerold have them (and Edric and Arthur don't).

1c: Even the purple-eyed Daynes don't look Valyrian. Dany is described as a typical Targaryen, classically Valyrian-looking, similar to past queens like Naerys, etc., and she's a short, slender, small-breasted girl with silver-gold hair. Ashara is a tall, large-breasted girl with dark hair. Other than both being beautiful and both having purple eyes, they couldn't be more different in looks.

---

2: Meanwhile, making the Daynes some kind of special proto-Valyrians wouldn't help anything.

2a: The Daynes are said to be more than 10000 years old (and they're certainly at least as old as the Long Night if their ancestry is important to the story). To preserve purple eyes for 10000-odd years would require far more intensive incest than the Targaryens—we're talking 25x as many generations here—and as far as we know, they've been intermarrying with their First Men neighbors the whole time. Or some other alternative, like maybe an artificial selection program where they breed their smallfolk for marriageable children with purple eyes. But the point is, whatever you come up with, it works just as well for concentrating a trait that exists in all of humanity, or in a wide range of western tribes that includes all Free Men as well as Valyrians, as for just proto-Valyrians plus the Daynes.

2b. There's no reason to believe being related to proto-Valyrians would mean anything. The proto-Valyrians were a bunch of shepherds, and most of their descendants look like the slaves and petty merchants you see running around the Free Cities today. Only the descendants of the 40 dragonlord families have the classical dragonlord features, including common purple eyes. And, while their subjects were intermarrying with everyone else in western and central Essos, those 40 families married within their own social stratum for that entire time, which is automatically going to concentrate all kinds of harmless traits, especially over a ridiculously long time like 5000 years. And something like purple eyes that serves as a visible marker of distinction could easily become a prestige marker, where for many generations any powerful dragonlord wanted sons- and daughters-in-law with purple eyes.

---

3: I suppose there could be some kind of magic involved in the dragonlords keeping themselves distinct and distinctive—or maybe it could just be a side effect of some other magic. And the Valyrians had lots of magic, so it wouldn't necessarily be related to dragonriding, meaning it could be something they happened to share with the Daynes. If the Targaryens lost their magic 400 years ago, incest could be the only thing keeping their eyes purple, while if the Daynes still have theirs, purple eyes could still be common for any Daynes who are touched by that magic.

3a: If there is magic involved, this would just get back to the same questions I asked at the top of this thread. Does it have to do with, say, being conceived in Starfall? Does that "top up" your blood as long as you had a tiny bit of it? Change your genetic structure? Influence gametes so you're more likely to get the special blood? Or maybe it has to do with the name Dayne itself being magical, maybe the First Men naming tradition is actually a spell but it only works with the name Dayne or something? Or…?

3b: But at any rate, if the answer is magic, again, being related to proto-Valyrians is probably irrelevant. Magic is often either knowledge that can be spread through cultural transmission (like the spells to work Valyrian steel) or physical artifacts that can be moved around (like Dawn) rather than something you get from your bloodline. And if this particular magic were passed along the bloodline, the question of how purple-eye-causing magic passes along the bloodline is probably much the same question as how non-magic purple eyes pass along the bloodline.

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Falcotron, you're forgetting something - the way genetics, inherited traits, and bloodlines work in the ASoIaF appears to magic all on its own. That complicates things.

With inherited traits and genetics functioning in a manner not consistent with the real world, but operating according to some other, magical, ruleset ... it's very hard to make predictions/analysis using real world knowledge of how genetics and inherited traits function.

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35 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

Falcotron, you're forgetting something - the way genetics, inherited traits, and bloodlines work in the ASoIaF appears to magic all on its own. That complicates things.

With inherited traits and genetics functioning in a manner not consistent with the real world, but operating according to some other, magical, ruleset ... it's very hard to make predictions/analysis using real world knowledge of how genetics and inherited traits function.

I don't know that genetics really are magic in ASoIaF.

Obviously some things are oversimplified, especially the issue with Baratheon hair breeding true—but GRRM has said that was a mistake in the first book that he's tried not to reproduce in later ones.

And most of the other reasons people have for assuming magic genetics aren't based on anything in the text. Like, for example, assuming that purple eye genes must be magic if the Daynes have had them for 11000 years, when the text never even hints that the Daynes have had them for 11000 years. If you go only by the actual facts, as I explained above, purple eyes seem to work without requiring magic.

There may or may not be a few explicitly magical special cases, like dragon blood allowing you to ride dragons and king's blood making you an especially valuable sacrifice, and those may require a magical explanation. But that's what this thread is about in the first place.

And beyond those one or two early mistakes and zero to four inherently magical special cases, I don't think there's any evidence that genetics doesn't work. Again, GRRM has given us reasons to think about the special cases, so assuming he wants us to just say "all genetics are magic" so we can not think about them seems to be missing the point.

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8 minutes ago, falcotron said:

I don't know that genetics really are magic in ASoIaF.

Obviously some things are oversimplified, especially the issue with Baratheon hair breeding true—but GRRM has said that was a mistake in the first book that he's tried not to reproduce in later ones.

And most of the other reasons people have for assuming magic genetics aren't based on anything in the text. Like, for example, assuming that purple eye genes must be magic if the Daynes have had them for 11000 years, when the text never even hints that the Daynes have had them for 11000 years. If you go only by the actual facts, as I explained above, purple eyes seem to work without requiring magic.

There may or may not be a few explicitly magical special cases, like dragon blood allowing you to ride dragons and king's blood making you an especially valuable sacrifice, and those may require a magical explanation. But that's what this thread is about in the first place.

And beyond those one or two early mistakes and zero to four inherently magical special cases, I don't think there's any evidence that genetics doesn't work. Again, GRRM has given us reasons to think about the special cases, so assuming he wants us to just say "all genetics are magic" so we can not think about them seems to be missing the point.

I don't know that they're all magic, but certainly some probably are at least influenced by magic.

In real-world terms, some magic/magical/magically influenced traits might tends towards not just being superdominant, but also towards being "locked in" - by which I mean likely to replace their mundane counterparts in the genome, in the zygote/gamete creation process.

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10 hours ago, falcotron said:

SSM:

 

ahahahaha. nice quote by GRRM. ty. He says everyone with blue eyes aren't Swedes. But blue eyes occur in a particular region in Europe. Now they are more widespread because of migration and colonial empires. Even though people with blue eyes may identify with different nationalities/clans, the mutation occurred with a single ancestor thousands of years ago in Europe (as far as I know). We are probably reading too much into the story. GRRM clearly isn't a geneticist. But there's nothing to do until WoW comes out

off-topic: I didn't know anyone in real life had violet eyes. This is the first time I'm hearing about Elizabeth Taylor's. I looked it up. In some photos she seems to have purple eyes, but in others they are clearly blue. And these are old photos so they are not really altered. 

Edited by Ghost+Nymeria4Eva

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4 hours ago, falcotron said:

tl;dr: I don't think we need to assume any magic here, or any wild coincidences. Targaryens have purple eyes because they're descended from 40 families that concentrated purple eye genes for 5000 years, and have been marrying mostly incestuously in the 400 years since. Ashara and Gerald have purple eyes because one of the recent ancestors we don't know about had purple eyes (maybe a Targaryen or Velaryon) and about a quarter of her descendants do. All normal genetics, and the big mystery people are trying to solve isn't a mystery at all, and the proto-Valyrian solution wouldn't be a solution even if it were.

Since there are a lot of points here, I'll number them.

---

1a: Remember that we're told that purple eyes aren't unique to the Valyrian dragonlord families, they're just very rare among other people and common among the dragonlords.

1b: We don't actually have any indication that Daynes historically have purple eyes. All we know from the books is that Ashara and Gerold have them (and Edric and Arthur don't).

1c: Even the purple-eyed Daynes don't look Valyrian. Dany is described as a typical Targaryen, classically Valyrian-looking, similar to past queens like Naerys, etc., and she's a short, slender, small-breasted girl with silver-gold hair. Ashara is a tall, large-breasted girl with dark hair. Other than both being beautiful and both having purple eyes, they couldn't be more different in looks.

---

2: Meanwhile, making the Daynes some kind of special proto-Valyrians wouldn't help anything.

2a: The Daynes are said to be more than 10000 years old (and they're certainly at least as old as the Long Night if their ancestry is important to the story). To preserve purple eyes for 10000-odd years would require far more intensive incest than the Targaryens—we're talking 25x as many generations here—and as far as we know, they've been intermarrying with their First Men neighbors the whole time. Or some other alternative, like maybe an artificial selection program where they breed their smallfolk for marriageable children with purple eyes. But the point is, whatever you come up with, it works just as well for concentrating a trait that exists in all of humanity, or in a wide range of western tribes that includes all Free Men as well as Valyrians, as for just proto-Valyrians plus the Daynes.

2b. There's no reason to believe being related to proto-Valyrians would mean anything. The proto-Valyrians were a bunch of shepherds, and most of their descendants look like the slaves and petty merchants you see running around the Free Cities today. Only the descendants of the 40 dragonlord families have the classical dragonlord features, including common purple eyes. And, while their subjects were intermarrying with everyone else in western and central Essos, those 40 families married within their own social stratum for that entire time, which is automatically going to concentrate all kinds of harmless traits, especially over a ridiculously long time like 5000 years. And something like purple eyes that serves as a visible marker of distinction could easily become a prestige marker, where for many generations any powerful dragonlord wanted sons- and daughters-in-law with purple eyes.

---

3: I suppose there could be some kind of magic involved in the dragonlords keeping themselves distinct and distinctive—or maybe it could just be a side effect of some other magic. And the Valyrians had lots of magic, so it wouldn't necessarily be related to dragonriding, meaning it could be something they happened to share with the Daynes. If the Targaryens lost their magic 400 years ago, incest could be the only thing keeping their eyes purple, while if the Daynes still have theirs, purple eyes could still be common for any Daynes who are touched by that magic.

3a: If there is magic involved, this would just get back to the same questions I asked at the top of this thread. Does it have to do with, say, being conceived in Starfall? Does that "top up" your blood as long as you had a tiny bit of it? Change your genetic structure? Influence gametes so you're more likely to get the special blood? Or maybe it has to do with the name Dayne itself being magical, maybe the First Men naming tradition is actually a spell but it only works with the name Dayne or something? Or…?

3b: But at any rate, if the answer is magic, again, being related to proto-Valyrians is probably irrelevant. Magic is often either knowledge that can be spread through cultural transmission (like the spells to work Valyrian steel) or physical artifacts that can be moved around (like Dawn) rather than something you get from your bloodline. And if this particular magic were passed along the bloodline, the question of how purple-eye-causing magic passes along the bloodline is probably much the same question as how non-magic purple eyes pass along the bloodline.

Ok first..... where did you get that Ashara Dayne had large breast? hahaha Barristan tells us Dany looks like Ashara Dayne's daughter. So the assumption would be that she got most of her looks from her mother but the silver hair from her dad. Who also had purple eyes, just reinforcing it.

 Now to play devils advocate here. 

1. You assume the time line and order of events are true and not fudged, which evidence does point to. So it may not have been 8000 years ago or even 6000 years ago. Though it was still likely 3000 years at least so still a long time.

2. That being said, if the Daynes were proto-Valyrians then it would explain why they have this recessive trait lying around that only emerges sometimes. Same thing with the purple hair. That is veryyyy coincidental to have both features in the house, how ever the genes have been paired over the years. The Daynes havnt been practicing incest that we know of, so this would explain why the gene isn't more dominant like the Valyrians who inbreed keeping those features locked in. 

3. We have examples of Tararyens who didn't have Valyrian features who could ride dragons, giving us a clue that their features are not tied to their ability to ride a dragon. Just something associated with them because of the inbreeding. Which may not have been being done to try and keep the silver hair and purple eyes, but to keep the magical blood in their veins untainted or diluted. (which isn't to say they're right either, just that this is what they thought and were trying.)

4. So the Daynes are one of two houses that carry the traits needed to achieve a classical Valyrian. The Daynes hold the recessive genes for the looks. Which would need to be inbred back in to make them stronger. Since the second piece needed is another House holding the other piece of the puzzle, their children would have to inbreed to keep it going. 

5. House Stark. By this theory, House Stark holds the skingchanging/warging key. The actual magic needed to ride and control the dragons. I have no idea if hatching is tied to it to or more of a ritual mixed with it. 

6. So Starks (power) + Daynes(looks)= Baby (full Valyrian gene set possibly, given the odds of enough kids).

So maybe Dany is the child of Eddard and Ashara and that's why she can hatch them and ride them. Though we dont know that Targs lost their riding ability. Only thing we know for sure is that they lost the hatching ability. So again, how she hatched the eggs may be unrelated.

If she's not the child of Eddard and Ashara and is Rhaella's, then it explains even less. 

If im right and she's the daughter of Ashara and Rhaegar. It would mean that her potential kid with Jon is the mix. This wouldn't explain how Dany hatched the eggs though, again. Which is why i believe the hatching is irrelevant to who she is, and may be more about the ritual than anything.

As far as the mixed child of a song of ice and fire? I think is really a trick and not the hero, but rather what the Others want. Which i think is the key to break the curse against them. 

Came about through some of our talking and looking at the myths and legends again, and everything else in the books, and trying to look at them with different eyes. The info im finding all keeps pointing to the same things that still dont line up, so why? 

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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I think it's worth pointing out that the CotF likely created the Others, and live beyond the wall with them. In safety for all we can tell, cause they cant enter their caves. 

So the tool the CotF created is working. The CotF who's numbers are about gone and losing the fight. Why would they help us? Helping us just guarantees that they die. Why wouldn't they just let the Others wipe us out since we killed them all any ways? And they're about gone so and possibly desperate. 

I still greatly distrust anything to do with the CotF, Bloodraven, and what they want. 

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4 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

off-topic: I didn't know anyone in real life had violet eyes. This is the first time I'm hearing about Elizabeth Taylor's. I looked it up. In some photos she seems to have purple eyes, but in others they are clearly blue. And these are old photos so they are not really altered. 

Yes, Liz Taylor's eyes look purple at least in some lighting—and in many of her movies and photo shoots, her costumes, her makeup, the set, the lighting, etc. were designed to make them look as purple as possible. People can argue about whether scientifically they're "really" purple or "really" blue, but ultimately that's a matter of definitions. They were purple enough for her to be famous as the actress with the beautiful purple eyes.

Of course Dany and other characters are dressed up to make their eyes look more purple (or occasionally less) in the books, too…

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20 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Yes, Liz Taylor's eyes look purple at least in some lighting—and in many of her movies and photo shoots, her costumes, her makeup, the set, the lighting, etc. were designed to make them look as purple as possible. People can argue about whether scientifically they're "really" purple or "really" blue, but ultimately that's a matter of definitions. They were purple enough for her to be famous as the actress with the beautiful purple eyes.

Of course Dany and other characters are dressed up to make their eyes look more purple (or occasionally less) in the books, too…

Scientifically the eyes are actually blue I think. It's just the photography flash, light reflection, and red blood vessels in the eyes can make some blue eyes appear purple. It seems albinos have violent eyes because of the lack of melanin pigmentation in the eyes, the red and blue blood vessels make the eyes appear purple. If violet eyes actually existed due to a mutation like blue eyes, there would be more people with that eye color, especially in Europe. 

In the books, the Targs have actual purple shade eyes and silver, non-blond hair, neither of which occur in real life (except for the hair in very old people). 

Anyway, this is off topic so I'm going to stop now. 

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1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Ok first..... where did you get that Ashara Dayne had large breast?

Three out of three GRRM-approved comic book and illustrated renditions of her.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

hahaha Barristan tells us Dany looks like Ashara Dayne's daughter. So the assumption would be that she got most of her looks from her mother but the silver hair from her dad. Who also had purple eyes, just reinforcing it.

Are you now assuming some crackpot theory like… Aerys + Ashara = Dany?… as proven fact or something?

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

1. You assume the time line and order of events are true and not fudged, which evidence does point to. So it may not have been 8000 years ago or even 6000 years ago. Though it was still likely 3000 years at least so still a long time.

No, I don't. I carefully say "said to be 10000 years ago", and just "millennia' when there are legitimate disputes on how many millennia.

Also, none of my conclusions are based on 8000 years. In fact, I don't even mention 8000 years, even indirectly via the Long Night, do I don't know why you think some tinfoil about the Long Night being only 3000 years ago would make any difference. (Especially since the original purpose of that tinfoil was to move the Long Night after the founding of Valyria 5000 years ago.)

But, more importantly, you can change any of my numbers that you like to 3000 for any reason you dream up, and it makes no significant difference. 3000 years is still way, way, way, way, way more than enough time for 40 intermarrying families to concentrate specific visible traits.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

2. That being said, if the Daynes were proto-Valyrians then it would explain why they have this recessive trait lying around that only emerges sometimes. Same thing with the purple hair. That is veryyyy coincidental to have both features in the house, how ever the genes have been paired over the years. The Daynes havnt been practicing incest that we know of, so this would explain why the gene isn't more dominant like the Valyrians who inbreed keeping those features locked in. 

But the Daynes being human already explains that just as well. Again, we know that purple eyes appear rarely among all humans in Planetos.

Plus, again, we don't actually have any evidence that any Daynes ever had purple eyes besides Ashara and Gerold in the first place, much less evidence that they all carry a recessive trait for it.

And if by "purple hair" you mean silver hair, we don't have any evidence that any Dayne ever had that besides Gerold, and his striped black-and-silver seems like a pretty unique mutation—if it's not dyed (not that a guy who says "Men call me Darkstar, and I am of the night" would ever dye his hair like Dave Vanian, right?)—rather than classically Valyrian.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

3. We have examples of Tararyens who didn't have Valyrian features who could ride dragons, giving us a clue that their features are not tied to their ability to ride a dragon. Just something associated with them because of the inbreeding. Which may not have been being done to try and keep the silver hair and purple eye

How is that playing devil's advocate? It's just repeating what I already said: the Targaryens might have lost their unique features without pervasive incest, but they happen to have been practicing pervasive incest for other reasons.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

4. So the Daynes are one of two houses that carry the traits needed to achieve a classical Valyrian.

Except that they aren't. The two houses that carry those traits are Targaryen and Velaryon. Again, no evidence that Daynes pop up purple eyes any more often than any other family in the world, and no reason to believe Ashara and Gerold don't just have a Velaryon grandmother or something in that family tree that we haven't seen any of.

And from here on out, you just go off onto tangents based on other crackpots, some of which even blatantly contradict each other—you can't assume Ned+Ashara=Dany and Rhaegar+Ashara=Dany at the same time—and none of which are relevant to what we're talking about.

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2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I think it's worth pointing out that the CotF likely created the Others, and live beyond the wall with them. In safety for all we can tell, cause they cant enter their caves. 

So the tool the CotF created is working. The CotF who's numbers are about gone and losing the fight. Why would they help us? Helping us just guarantees that they die. Why wouldn't they just let the Others wipe us out since we killed them all any ways? And they're about gone so and possibly desperate. 

I still greatly distrust anything to do with the CotF, Bloodraven, and what they want. 

Why is this worth pointing out? How is it relevant to anything else in the thread?

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