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One last big twist in Season 8?

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Based on those 3 questions :

  • Will the NK need sacrifices to get killed?
  • Why the show told us that Daenerys can't get pregnant?
  • Why the show didn't solve the 'younger, more beautiful queen'?

it might be that the one last big twist can be the death of Daenerys and Jon and Sansa the YMBQ

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The show has basically told us Mel and Varys will die in s8 but I'm gonna count their deaths as big twists since they practically had no presence in season 7 lol.

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plot twist : the White Walkers just want to board some ships and sail home to Asshai. They tried in Hardhome, they tried in Eastwatch and now they march on White Harbor ..... 

 

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"there must be aways the Night King" ending - someone (Jon?) will not defeat, but SUCCEED the NK (and sacrifice his humanity) in order to restore balance.

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Twist: Bran steals Viserion away from the Night King and after the Night King is defeated decides he would prefer to live the rest of his life as a dragon. 

Edited by jcmontea

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Doesn't the prophecy say Daenerys is to be betrayed a final time by someone who loves her?

That would now include Jon, Jorah and Tyrion, with Tyrion the most likely candidate surely given (a) the look during boatsex and (b) the unexplained offscreen resolution of the conversation between Cersei and Tyrion?

I would say at this point Dany's death is (even) more certain than Jon's.  The underlying theme of Season 7 seemed to be "she is too good for this world and will break herself in trying to break the wheel", whereas Jon is the terminator and just keeps surviving.

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1 hour ago, Aemon Targaryen said:

Doesn't the prophecy say Daenerys is to be betrayed a final time by someone who loves her?

That would now include Jon, Jorah and Tyrion, with Tyrion the most likely candidate surely given (a) the look during boatsex and (b) the unexplained offscreen resolution of the conversation between Cersei and Tyrion?

I would say at this point Dany's death is (even) more certain than Jon's.  The underlying theme of Season 7 seemed to be "she is too good for this world and will break herself in trying to break the wheel", whereas Jon is the terminator and just keeps surviving.

It was "Betrayal for Love", not betrayal by someone who loves her. In the books, anyways.

However, I'm not sure they kept that in on the show.

But if they did, yeah, Tyrion is by far the likeliest candidate for the betrayal for love (of his family). Most likely either love of his brother, or love of his unborn niece/nephew.

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21 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

It was "Betrayal for Love", not betrayal by someone who loves her. In the books, anyways.

However, I'm not sure they kept that in on the show.

But if they did, yeah, Tyrion is by far the likeliest candidate for the betrayal for love (of his family). Most likely either love of his brother, or love of his unborn niece/nephew.

I think you are right (and that was also how it was put in the show).

Which means Tyrion's comment to Cersei in S7Ep7 that "I love my family" may have also been significant.

My issue is I don't really see Tyrion's motivations or the nature of that betrayal.

1.  Tyrion has doubts about Daenerys but she hasn't done anything really bad yet, still hasn't burnt down KL and has every chance of being further 'moderated' by Jon and Tyrion.

2.  Tyrion knows Cersei is the most evil woman alive and said as much in the same episode.

That leaves the issue of Dany's heir.

Given D&D, we should look to the obvious.  Tyrion, conscious of what would happen if Dany dies, decides to cut a deal with Cersei that if Dany dies in the war against the dead, then Tyrion would support Cersei's child as true ruler of Westeros.

But why would Tyrion be stupid enough to believe this?  (Although why was Tyrion stupid enough to conceive of and implement the wight hunt and treating with Cersei in the first place? And why does show Tyrion apparently believe Cersei's change of heart in the show?)

But, even if he was that stupid to promise Cersei something (for nothing), why would he stick to that promise if circumstances changed and Dany became pregnant?  Also, he knows Jon would make a much better ruler of Westeros anyhow if Daenerys died, and he is still friendly with Jon and helped him throughout the season.

That would only make sense if Cersei had some massive hold over Tyrion, something he really wanted (a Shae) ... but I can't think there is anything like that?

As far as Jorah, his character arc is done and he will never betray her.

As far as Jon, Jon would simply never betray her unless, perhaps, they unintentionally become enemies after the aunt-nephew reveal or, perhaps, some silly 'Jon must kill her to save the world' thing happens.  But it wouldn't be a true betrayal and would be unlikely.

So it just doesn't make any sense.

Though I can't see how a Tyrion betrayal would really work, it may make an interesting way for the AJT thing to come out .... and would be GRRM ironic symmetry (TM) - i.e. all of Cersei's accusations about Tyrion betraying his family would become true, except that it would be by betraying Jon and Dany?

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Twist: the Night King gets his outer layer frozen off, revealing a regular human who just wanted to get warm 

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2 hours ago, Aemon Targaryen said:

Doesn't the prophecy say Daenerys is to be betrayed a final time by someone who loves her?

This prophecy has never been mentioned in the show, only the books, so I wouldn't expect it to play a major part in the coming season.

If it becomes an issue, then technically Dany has been betrayed "for love" (not by someone who loves her) at least twice in the show already:

1) Doreah betrayed her for Xaro in season 2. The show didn't go into great detail why Doreah chose to betray Dany, but we can assume that she fell in love with him at some point after Dany told her to extract info from him. They are sleeping together (actually sleeping, not having sex) when she learns of her betrayal.
2) Tyrion also technically betrayed Daenerys in season 7. He intentionally gave her bad military advice and delayed her conquest in order to try and find a way to get his family (or at the very least, Jamie) out of the war alive. It was also Tyrions monumentally stupid idea for them to go north of the wall and capture a wight, which ended up with Viserions death. Tyrion knows Cersei better than this, did he really think that she would care and/or side with them? 
 

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1 minute ago, MinscS2 said:

This prophecy has never been mentioned in the show, only the books, so I wouldn't expect it to play a major part in the coming season.

If it becomes an issue, then technically Dany has been betrayed "for love" (not by someone who loves her) at least twice in the show already:

1) Doreah betrayed her for Xaro in season 2. The show didn't go into great detail why Doreah chose to betray Dany, but we can assume that she fell in love with him at some point after Dany told her to extract info from him. They are sleeping together (actually sleeping, not having sex) when she learns of her betrayal.
2) Tyrion also technically betrayed Daenerys in season 7. He intentionally gave her bad military advice and delayed her conquest in order to try and find a way to get his family (or at the very least, Jamie) out of the war alive. It was also Tyrions monumentally stupid idea for them to go north of the wall and capture a wight, which ended up with Viserions death. Tyrion knows Cersei better than this, did he really think that she would care and/or side with them? 
 

Agreed. 

When I first watched the Dragon and the Wolf I almost spilled my wine King Robert style and told my wife "he betrayed her!!!" when Tyrion told Cersei that he is the only reason they are still alive and that Daenerys wanted to serve her Fire and Blood. Hell, Tyrion betrayed 90% of the audience who wanted to see Cersei get served Fire and Blood. 

Good point about Doreah. 

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11 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

 When I first watched the Dragon and the Wolf I almost spilled my wine King Robert style and told my wife "he betrayed her!!!" when Tyrion told Cersei that he is the only reason they are still alive and that Daenerys wanted to serve her Fire and Blood. 

Aye. Jamie and Cersei were/are enemies to Daenerys. She wanted to take them out quickly, but Tyrion convinced her (read: manipulated) her not to. Making sure the enemies your queen wants dead survives due your own ulterior motives is a textbook example of betrayal.

Edit - Note: I'm not saying that Tyrion is a traitorous asshole who should be burned alive by Drogon, nor what he actually did was wrong (although this is debatable) in the context of the story, but he did betray her. He's her hand, but he put his own interests before hers.

Edited by MinscS2

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4 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Aye. Jamie and Cersei were/are enemies to Daenerys. She wanted to take them out quickly, but Tyrion convinced her (read: manipulated) her not to. Making sure the enemies your queen wants dead survives due your own ulterior motives is a textbook example of betrayal.

Edit - Note: I'm not saying that Tyrion is a traitorous asshole who should be burned alive by Drogon, nor what he actually did was wrong (although this is debatable) in the context of the story, but he did betray her. He's her hand, but he put his own interests before hers.

I hope they don't let this thread drop. This coming to a head could be a very powerful moment in Season 8. 

By naming Tyrion Hand, she effectively completed a big part of his arc. She gave him genuine respect not because of his sigil - which was a negative in her eyes - but because of who he was as a person and because of what she viewed to be his administrative strengths and courage in challenging her. For someone who never received any acceptance from his family other than Jaime, she gave him acceptance and effectively made him part of her family of "bastards, criples and broken things." I don't even think she made one joke or comment about him being a dwarf other than her comment in Beyond the Wall about Jon being too little for her which was clearly not directed at him and she quickly felt bad about saying it. 

In return he decided to manipulate her for his own ends. Even if Daenerys does not find out or truly connect the dots other then what she has said in anger, we need a scene where Tryion talks to Jaime about that after he recognizes he got played like a fool by Cersei and he processes how he has gravely jeopardized them. 

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2 hours ago, Aemon Targaryen said:

I think you are right (and that was also how it was put in the show).

Which means Tyrion's comment to Cersei in S7Ep7 that "I love my family" may have also been significant.

My issue is I don't really see Tyrion's motivations or the nature of that betrayal.

1.  Tyrion has doubts about Daenerys but she hasn't done anything really bad yet, still hasn't burnt down KL and has every chance of being further 'moderated' by Jon and Tyrion.

2.  Tyrion knows Cersei is the most evil woman alive and said as much in the same episode.

That leaves the issue of Dany's heir.

Given D&D, we should look to the obvious.  Tyrion, conscious of what would happen if Dany dies, decides to cut a deal with Cersei that if Dany dies in the war against the dead, then Tyrion would support Cersei's child as true ruler of Westeros.

But why would Tyrion be stupid enough to believe this?  (Although why was Tyrion stupid enough to conceive of and implement the wight hunt and treating with Cersei in the first place? And why does show Tyrion apparently believe Cersei's change of heart in the show?)

But, even if he was that stupid to promise Cersei something (for nothing), why would he stick to that promise if circumstances changed and Dany became pregnant?  Also, he knows Jon would make a much better ruler of Westeros anyhow if Daenerys died, and he is still friendly with Jon and helped him throughout the season.

That would only make sense if Cersei had some massive hold over Tyrion, something he really wanted (a Shae) ... but I can't think there is anything like that?

As far as Jorah, his character arc is done and he will never betray her.

As far as Jon, Jon would simply never betray her unless, perhaps, they unintentionally become enemies after the aunt-nephew reveal or, perhaps, some silly 'Jon must kill her to save the world' thing happens.  But it wouldn't be a true betrayal and would be unlikely.

So it just doesn't make any sense.

Though I can't see how a Tyrion betrayal would really work, it may make an interesting way for the AJT thing to come out .... and would be GRRM ironic symmetry (TM) - i.e. all of Cersei's accusations about Tyrion betraying his family would become true, except that it would be by betraying Jon and Dany?

Tyrion's betrayal is in him trying to save his relatives. To bring an end to things such that they're in a position where Daenerys is willing not to kill them, and is willing to accept them remaining around. It's a subtler and less blatant betrayal than outright turning around and stabbing Daenerys ... hmm. Possibly too subtle for Benioff and Weiss.

Cersei's hold over Tyrion is that he loves Jaime, and he loved Cersei's children - his niece and nephews - and that Cersei's pregnant. IIRC, Tyrion said that Cersei's one virtue/thing he liked about her is that she loves/loved her children.

 

But yeah, Jorah ... he's absurdly loyal to Daenerys, and the only possibility for someone else for him to love is Lyanna Mormont, who should hate him.

Jon ... even if the Aunt/Nephew reveal goes poorly, that's still not betraying her for love.

 

I don't believe AJT. I believe Tyrion really is Tywin's son.

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6 hours ago, GeorgeIAF said:

Tyrion being burned by Dany would be a major plot-twist.

 It would. 

I don't think it would happen. Even if she found out he had indeed been trying to save his family deliberately, most likely she would treat him how she treated Jorah and just exile him to Essos or just dismiss him without reinstating his formal titles and rights.

Hmm. That is actually kind of an interesting ending. Tyrion is either permanently exiled or forced to live as a commoner and that effectively is his punishment for killing Tywin and betraying Dany. A man who kills their father has to have some punishment. Once Jaime and Cersei are dead, the Lannister's are effectively wiped out and everything the mighty Tywin tried to build is completely destroyed and his house has followed in the path of House Rains and Castamere. 

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White walkers lose battle for winterfell. 

During battle NightKing breaks off with a group and head south or perhaps the whole battle is really a diversion to allow him to go south. 

He inflitrates King's Landing.

Dany, Jon and/ or Bran will then have to make the decision to burn down King's Landing and sacrifice a million people in order to keep the NightKing from creating an army of several million (million living plus millions of dead in the city) 

night king moves North and his final stand is a battle at the Trident per Dany's dream of fighting at the trident and burning dead men there

the core 5 survive, but is still bittersweat because they are racked by the horrible decision they had to make of sacrificing a city of a million people in order to save humanity. 

This is an interesting explanation of one way this can all go down. 

https://weirwoodleviathan.wordpress.com/2017/09/08/bran-them-all-the-fate-of-kings-landing/

Edited by jcmontea

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The Night King has come for the Child in Dany's womb. Bran wargs the night king and dies with him.

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On 9/13/2017 at 8:12 PM, Aemon Targaryen said:

That would only make sense if Cersei had some massive hold over Tyrion, something he really wanted (a Shae) ... but I can't think there is anything like that?

Maybe she knows where whores go.

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Not expecting this to happen, but I think it will be pretty cool if this is the twist:

Turns out, Cersei put in a slow-acting poison in the wine Tyrion drank during their meeting in 7x07. The cryptic look on Tyrion's face was because he was starting to feel the effects of the poison and wanted to tell Dany, but was caught off guard by boatsex. However, we won't be able to tell that he's been poisoned until 8x01. Then a few or all of season 8 episodes will follow Tyrion's deterioration. 

Edited by 4 Eyed Crow

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