Will the Lords care if Aegon is fake?

[Tyrion1991]

JonCon seemed concerned that unless Aegon married Dany his legitimacy would be in question. However, Iam not sure. The Lords didn't seem to care that Tommen was a Lannister incest child. The Targaryens are despised because of the Mad King; JC seems to expect goodwill from him being a Targ. But Mace Tyrell dismisses Dany as being as mad as her father.

I think it's more likely the Lords won't care about his dubious parentage. They will see a powerful Lord who can get rid of Cersei and cut Dany out of the succession.

The only person who will care is Dany herself. She could, probably, live with a relative claiming the throne. But she will destroy a Targ pretender. Worst insult imaginable.

Basically if people wouldn't support Dany for being a Targaryen then why would they care if Aegon is fake? Its weird, GRRM seems to hint at this being important but I can't understand why given how mercenary and fickle the Lords of Westeros are.

[elder brother jonothor dar]

"In a room sit three great men, a king, a priest, and a rich manwith his gold. Between them stands a sellsword, a little man of common birth and no great mind. Each of the great ones bids him slay the other two. 'Do it,' says the king, 'for I am your lawful ruler.' 'Do it,' says the priest, 'for I command you in the names of the gods.' 'Do it,' says the rich man, 'and all this gold shall be yours.' So tell me—who lives and who dies?" Tyrion 1 clash

"Why shouldn't we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead!" He pointed at Robb with the blade. "There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to, m'lords," he thundered. "The King in the North!" Cat 11 GoT

This is 15 years after the north helped put the Baratheons on the throne, now they are disputing their legitimacy to rule the north (Roberts heir is not even the questioned its irrelevant)

"Isn't that a sweet story, my lady?" Renly asked. "I was camped at Horn Hill when Lord Tarly received his letter, and I must say, it took my breath away." He smiled at his brother. "I had never suspected you were so clever, Stannis. Were it only true, you would indeed be Robert's heir." Cat 3 clash 

Renly apparently does not give a fuck about Joff being legitimate, Stannis obviously does; but Renly rebells anyway.

So Tyrell back Renly knowing he is not legitimate, but Stannis would probably have stayed loyal had Joff been Roberts true born heir.  Renly was setting a dangerous precedent for those who followed him, no doubt he would have used the doubt over his nephew's claim to good effect had he secured the throne for himself.

I could give more examples Blackfyre rebellion is a good case study, without Daemon being the "legitimate" heir would it have got off the ground, or would it have remained a lot of southern lords grumbling about the Dornish.

If Egg was not elected king in a great council would other have joined the Baratheons in rebellion?

[Aegon VII]

If he has an army worthy of a targ, they'll respect him as a targ. It's all appearances at this point. Same thing with dany, but she got the dragons so she's been certified for a minute now

[Tyrion1991]

16 minutes ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

"In a room sit three great men, a king, a priest, and a rich manwith his gold. Between them stands a sellsword, a little man of common birth and no great mind. Each of the great ones bids him slay the other two. 'Do it,' says the king, 'for I am your lawful ruler.' 'Do it,' says the priest, 'for I command you in the names of the gods.' 'Do it,' says the rich man, 'and all this gold shall be yours.' So tell me—who lives and who dies?" Tyrion 1 clash

"Why shouldn't we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead!" He pointed at Robb with the blade. "There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to, m'lords," he thundered. "The King in the North!" Cat 11 GoT

This is 15 years after the north helped put the Baratheons on the throne, now they are disputing their legitimacy to rule the north (Roberts heir is not even the questioned its irrelevant)

"Isn't that a sweet story, my lady?" Renly asked. "I was camped at Horn Hill when Lord Tarly received his letter, and I must say, it took my breath away." He smiled at his brother. "I had never suspected you were so clever, Stannis. Were it only true, you would indeed be Robert's heir." Cat 3 clash 

Renly apparently does not give a fuck about Joff being legitimate, Stannis obviously does; but Renly rebells anyway.

So Tyrell back Renly knowing he is not legitimate, but Stannis would probably have stayed loyal had Joff been Roberts true born heir.  Renly was setting a dangerous precedent for those who followed him, no doubt he would have used the doubt over his nephew's claim to good effect had he secured the throne for himself.

I could give more examples Blackfyre rebellion is a good case study, without Daemon being the "legitimate" heir would it have got off the ground, or would it have remained a lot of southern lords grumbling about the Dornish.

If Egg was not elected king in a great council would other have joined the Baratheons in rebellion?

If you kill the rich man you can take his gold anyway. Thus he has nothing to offer you. The lord or priest is a question of secular or divine power. However a priest is merely a man who acts in the name of god, he is not a god himself and does not speak for them. So void of other context you follow your lawful king as the law is absolute and he is a divinely anointed King. 

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

JonCon seemed concerned that unless Aegon married Dany his legitimacy would be in question. However, Iam not sure. The Lords didn't seem to care that Tommen was a Lannister incest child. The Targaryens are despised because of the Mad King; JC seems to expect goodwill from him being a Targ. But Mace Tyrell dismisses Dany as being as mad as her father.

I think it's more likely the Lords won't care about his dubious parentage. They will see a powerful Lord who can get rid of Cersei and cut Dany out of the succession.

The only person who will care is Dany herself. She could, probably, live with a relative claiming the throne. But she will destroy a Targ pretender. Worst insult imaginable.

Basically if people wouldn't support Dany for being a Targaryen then why would they care if Aegon is fake? Its weird, GRRM seems to hint at this being important but I can't understand why given how mercenary and fickle the Lords of Westeros are.

The would assume "Aegon" to be fake from the get go. Only the word from someone like JonCon will be able to convince the high lords that Aegon is really the dead baby. Though the lords might not care how legitimate Faegon is, they wouldn't want to put some base born orphan from Lys on the throne either. The knight's word and an army would help his claim. 

But I think bloodlines matter little at this point. The kingdom is broke, has no proper ruler, and is facing winter (and famine). When Aegon comes claiming to be a ghost from a more prosperous past, people would welcome him. We know that Cersei's reign is not going to end well. Her ignorance of the Iron Bank, arming religious fanatics, relying on unfit creeps like Qyuburn is going to take a heavy toll on everything. This is the sort of chaos Varys hopes to bring Aegon into. He will show up like a cool glass of water on drought ridden land, and lords will welcome him to bring back stability. 

In Dany's vision she sees a mummer's dragon amidst a cheering crowd. So people probably accept him. But him not being a real Targ will matter in the long run. Mainly, Dany has three dragons. The kingdom will never be safe with those dragons out there. When the winter comes, the kingdom will need the dragons too. And we know that no fake can control the dragons. 

 

[Dragonsbone]

I am not so sure, they will act differently if Aegon was real, and they would know or he could prove it. I think the Lords of Westeros are pretty happy that they don't have to deal with lunatics like Maegor, Aegon IV and Aerys  II anymore. The "Targaryen random game of madness", is not something that the Lords of Westeros are happily looking forward to.  The random folk on the other hand...well that is a different story.

[Lord Varys]

They will want to believe that he is real. And thus they will believe that he is real.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Some will, some won't. Some will buy the story, and some will assume that he is a feigned boy. What's the old adage? "Where you stand depends on where you sit." 

I think it will get really interesting if the good folk of Westeros begin to suspect the Golden Company's support. At this point, I don't see any reason for folks in Westeros to suspect that Aegon is the Blackfyre for any other reason. If they do begin to suspect that Aegon is the Blackfyre, he could have trouble. There are a handful of men in Westeros who will remember fighting against Maelys and the Golden Company, and there are many more who must have lost fathers, uncles, and grandfathers fighting the Blackfyres in the Stepstones. But unless word gets out from Team Aegon that he is the Blackfyre, I don't see why they would suspect it. Even if (when) Aegon is given the sword Blackfyre, the sword was wielded by Aegon the Conqueror long before it was given to Daemon Blackfyre. 

As for Daenerys, I suspect that it will play out at first as Tyrion suggested, Aegon will find himself hard pressed, and she will bale him out. He might resent that though, and even more so if Aegon falls for Arianne's womanly wiles. Then Daenerys will know three treasons, one for blood, one for gold, and one for love, and the Second Dance of Dragons will truly begin. Through that process, Daenerys might learn of Aegon's true identity, assuming he is the Blackfyre, or she might merely accuse him of it as their brief alliance collapses. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

If he's everything Varys said he's cracked up to be they won't care to question it. Plus Varys will be working overtime on putting out positive PR for (f)Aegon.If he wins all his battles and makes the right political moves people will claim he's Jaehaerys the Wise come again. Then when Daenerys comes with her dragon's and armies things will get interesting. We'll see just how much the people care about their lost prince then.

[White Ravens]

Those that stand to gain power by joining him won't care while everyone else will think that it is extremely important.

[elder brother jonothor dar]

2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

If you kill the rich man you can take his gold anyway. Thus he has nothing to offer you. The lord or priest is a question of secular or divine power. However a priest is merely a man who acts in the name of god, he is not a god himself and does not speak for them. So void of other context you follow your lawful king as the law is absolute and he is a divinely anointed King. 

You have missed the point of the riddle, you believe that power resides with the King therefore you answered the King.

How would a sparrow have answer?

What makes you think the King will allow you to take the gold, the law is absolute and if he says the gold is his who are you to argue.

[Tyrion1991]

It's more the way JonCon and others frame this as if there are people who in the shadows would support a Targ restoration. Apart from the Martels there aren't too many that spring to mind. But this seems at odds with the actions of the Lords and Smallfolk. Everybody has pretty firmly nailed their colours to the mast and there's no suggestion that people think restoring the Targ line is a good idea. 

[Tyrion1991]

5 minutes ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

You have missed the point of the riddle, you believe that power resides with the King therefore you answered the King.

How would a sparrow have answer?

What makes you think the King will allow you to take the gold, the law is absolute and if he says the gold is his who are you to argue.

 

The riddle doesn't say I can't take the gold if I murder the merchant. He has nothing to offer me that I don't already own as I have him in my power. This is a flaw in the riddle. If I did this situation in a Pathfinder RPG I'd be eaten alive.

Power does rest in the King. Medieval society has a pretty clear hierarchy. A common priest is outranked by a king and is not equatable to God; nor can he claim to speak for God. He is a man who interprets holy texts. Even a Sparrow would not be able to make that analogy.

So the King has the greater moral legitimacy. It's also important that this is how most people with a medieval worldview would answer. So social expectation would weigh in on my decision. The riddle assumes that we are islands of reason and the opinions of others don't matter. It's why Jamie got so much bother for killing Aerys.

 

[elder brother jonothor dar]

5 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

It's more the way JonCon and others frame this as if there are people who in the shadows would support a Targ restoration. Apart from the Martels there aren't too many that spring to mind. But this seems at odds with the actions of the Lords and Smallfolk. Everybody has pretty firmly nailed their colours to the mast and there's no suggestion that people think restoring the Targ line is a good idea. 

Jon Con might be deluded, he has been living under a rock for a long time, at one point what he said might have been true - take Darry for example nailed on to support the Targs if they returned, but there is nothing left of Darry now.

No doubt there are still houses loyal to the Targs; but what it will come down to is what is in it for them risks/rewards for getting involved or otherwise.  In this instance legitimacy is less important (although can sway certain groups one way or the other) but legitimacy is vital for the continuation of your rule once you have taken power.

Take the 2nd Blackfyre rebellion had bittersteal lent his support to Daemon it might have gained enough support to get off the ground.  Legitimacy can increase or decrease your numbers and more importantly effects moral on the battlefield, those fighting for a just cause normally fight harder.

[elder brother jonothor dar]

47 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

The riddle doesn't say I can't take the gold if I murder the merchant. He has nothing to offer me that I don't already own as I have him in my power. This is a flaw in the riddle. If I did this situation in a Pathfinder RPG I'd be eaten alive.

Power does rest in the King. Medieval society has a pretty clear hierarchy. A common priest is outranked by a king and is not equatable to God; nor can he claim to speak for God. He is a man who interprets holy texts. Even a Sparrow would not be able to make that analogy.

So the King has the greater moral legitimacy. It's also important that this is how most people with a medieval worldview would answer. So social expectation would weigh in on my decision. The riddle assumes that we are islands of reason and the opinions of others don't matter. It's why Jamie got so much bother for killing Aerys.

 

A clever answer but you are still missing the point.

"When he was gone, Chella gave a snort and Shae wrinkled up her pretty face. “The rich man lives. Doesn’t he?” Tyrion sipped at his wine, thoughtful. “Perhaps. Or not. That would depend on the sellsword, it seems.” He set down his cup. “Come, let’s go upstairs.” Tyrion 1 Clash

The first person to choose in world chooses gold, I'm guessing Shae hasn't played pathfinder either.

[Wolf of The Wall]

45 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

The riddle doesn't say I can't take the gold if I murder the merchant. He has nothing to offer me that I don't already own as I have him in my power. This is a flaw in the riddle. If I did this situation in a Pathfinder RPG I'd be eaten alive.

Power does rest in the King. Medieval society has a pretty clear hierarchy. A common priest is outranked by a king and is not equatable to God; nor can he claim to speak for God. He is a man who interprets holy texts. Even a Sparrow would not be able to make that analogy.

So the King has the greater moral legitimacy. It's also important that this is how most people with a medieval worldview would answer. So social expectation would weigh in on my decision. The riddle assumes that we are islands of reason and the opinions of others don't matter. It's why Jamie got so much bother for killing Aerys.

 

This is a riddle. You aren't suppose to take it litterally. In a real world, in what case those three men would find themselves in that situation. Point of the riddle is power resides where men believe it resides. Let's say mercenary is a zelot and afraid of gods on superstition level. Then what do you think is going to happen.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

It's more the way JonCon and others frame this as if there are people who in the shadows would support a Targ restoration. Apart from the Martels there aren't too many that spring to mind. But this seems at odds with the actions of the Lords and Smallfolk. Everybody has pretty firmly nailed their colours to the mast and there's no suggestion that people think restoring the Targ line is a good idea. 

Most folks in Westeros don't seem to think there is a realistic Targaryen option. Everyone knows Viserys is dead. There are lots of rumors about Daenerys and a three-headed dragon or three dragons off in Slaver's Bay, but only the players seem at all interested in the truth of the rumors. Until the end of Dance, nobody suspected Aegon was alive. But anybody who dislikes Cersei and Tommen could back either or both of the Targaryens. 

[falcotron]

6 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

But she will destroy a Targ pretender. Worst insult imaginable.

Minor nitpick: That's not what pretender means.

A pretender is someone who maintains a claim to a throne (or other title or honor) that he doesn't hold.

An impostor is someone who maintains a fraudulent claim, whether by inventing a lineage or by impersonating someone who has a valid lineage.

So, Dany is a Targaryen pretender. So is Aegon, even if he's real. If he's false, he's a pretender and an impostor. Stannis is a Baratheon pretender. Tommen is not a pretender, but he is an impostor.

Stannis is also technically an antiking until both definitions of the term—he claims Tommen's throne under the same rules and pedigree as Tommen, and he's a rival king supported by religious hierarchy (assuming Melisandre does represent the red priests). You normally don't use either sense of that term for a hereditary monarchy, but I think Stannis would appreciate it.

[Wolf's Bane]

7 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

JonCon seemed concerned that unless Aegon married Dany his legitimacy would be in question. However, Iam not sure. The Lords didn't seem to care that Tommen was a Lannister incest child. The Targaryens are despised because of the Mad King; JC seems to expect goodwill from him being a Targ. But Mace Tyrell dismisses Dany as being as mad as her father.

I think it's more likely the Lords won't care about his dubious parentage. They will see a powerful Lord who can get rid of Cersei and cut Dany out of the succession.

The only person who will care is Dany herself. She could, probably, live with a relative claiming the throne. But she will destroy a Targ pretender. Worst insult imaginable.

Basically if people wouldn't support Dany for being a Targaryen then why would they care if Aegon is fake? Its weird, GRRM seems to hint at this being important but I can't understand why given how mercenary and fickle the Lords of Westeros are.

You're making a lot of assumptions that are, in my opinion, incorrect.  The Targaryens are not widely despised.  Only Robert despised the Targaryens.  I would bet most people would call for the return of Targaryen rule if they could. 

The lords will absolutely care whether Aegon is fake or not.  That's the whole basis for his claim.  His identity.  Their world functions on a system where power is inherited.  So if he's just a pretty Tyroshi, yeah, they would care.  They would not support him.  Why do you think Doran Martell wants more information.  Because he wants to know if Aegon is the real deal or a lying poser. 

The people would support Dany because she is a Targaryen.  Add her dragons, which proves who she is, and more than half of the nobles will automatically support her. 

[Lord Varys]

Guys, you have to keep in mind that nobody really hates the Targaryens. They all love them, and those people who opposed mad Aerys are all dead and gone (aside from the Lannister cripple). The Targaryens are the rightful royal dynasty and they embody and symbolize a glorious and prosperous past, the golden age where there was no continuous civil war and no misrule and rampant corruption. It is not Tywin Lannister - or not only Tywin Lannister - it is Aerys II and his golden Targaryen name that stands for that.

People will want to believe that Rhaegar's golden boy never died and now came back to save them. That is a great story, something they did not hope for in their wildest dreams. And now it happened. Nobody is going to doubt this story - and even if they did, Aegon looks the part, unlike Cersei's children. That's all people need to know to believe it.

Most of the people in Westeros are not cynics. They believe in songs, stories, rumors, legends, and other nonsensical things. If you tell them at a boy looking like a Targaryen is a Targaryen they will believe it.

Now, once Dany arrives things might get more complicated but even a half-wit or lackwit Targaryen pretender could topple kings of the format of Tommen and Stannis. Nobody likes them and scarcely anyone thinks they have a good claim. Rhaegar's son does.