Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
FylkirKarl

Are the Royce's closet Old God worshippesr?

23 posts in this topic

Do the Royce's still worship the Old Gods, but in secret unlike the Blackwoods who openly accept the Old Gods? They're use of ancient First Men bronze armor inscribed with runes and they're dedication to the Nights Watch which is uncommon in the South show that at least, they remember their roots and honor them. I've always liked the idea of southern houses still worshipping the Old Gods and this is one of the reasons I really like the Blackwoods. They're whole attitude screams Old God worshipper from their sigil to their armor to how they act to how the youngest son of Lord Royce willingly went to the Nights Watch, something only Northern houses seem to do anymore. What do you think?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PS: Are the First Men of Crackclaw Point Old God worshippers? They're dominantly First Men who the Andals failed to conquer who are still loyal to House Targaryen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's no evidence of them being Old Gods worshippers.

Also, Waymar Royce is hardly the only non-Northern noble in the watch. Look at the list of Current Rangers—there actually seem to be more Crownlands houses there (Rosby, Thorne, Follard, Rykker…) than Northern, and there are also families from everywhere from the Iron Islands to the Reach.

Meanwhile, the Royces were one of the major kingdoms of the Vale, and united the houses in defense against the Andals—but once they lost, they immediately bent the knee to the Arryns, and have been their most faithful allies ever since. They also seem to intermarry happily with other families from Arryn to Frey to Targaryen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But there is evidence to suggest that they hold their old roots a little too closely for one of the most Andal regions in Westeros. I'm also not saying that Waymar was the only non-Northern noble in the watch either, the Northerners and First Men houses tend to hold the Nights Watch in more esteem than Andal and Southern ones, but most of the houses you've named from either the Iron Islands, Reach or Crownlands happen to most likely be forced prisoners from either the Greyjoy Rebellion or Roberts Rebellion, not voluntary like Waymar or Jon. Your last point has no point as I'm not saying their not loyal banners to the Arryns nor are they biased against marriage to other families, I'm stating that it would be interesting and there is some evidence to suggest that they might hold to the Old Gods instead of the Seven.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, falcotron said:

There's no evidence of them being Old Gods worshippers.

Also, Waymar Royce is hardly the only non-Northern noble in the watch. Look at the list of Current Rangers—there actually seem to be more Crownlands houses there (Rosby, Thorne, Follard, Rykker…) than Northern, and there are also families from everywhere from the Iron Islands to the Reach.

Meanwhile, the Royces were one of the major kingdoms of the Vale, and united the houses in defense against the Andals—but once they lost, they immediately bent the knee to the Arryns, and have been their most faithful allies ever since. They also seem to intermarry happily with other families from Arryn to Frey to Targaryen.

The guys from the Crownlands were sent to the wall after Roberts Rebellion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Daemon Blackfyre IV said:

The guys from the Crownlands were sent to the wall after Roberts Rebellion

As was the Iron Islanders most likely. I'm talking about willingly going to the wall of their own volition. That seems to be a trait of only First Men houses like Mallister, Royce, Stark, Mormont etc Falcotron.

Edited by FylkirKarl

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, FylkirKarl said:

I'm also not saying that Waymar was the only non-Northern noble in the watch either, the Northerners and First Men houses tend to hold the Nights Watch in more esteem than Andal and Southern ones, but most of the houses you've named from either the Iron Islands, Reach or Crownlands happen to most likely be forced prisoners from either the Greyjoy Rebellion or Roberts Rebellion, not voluntary like Waymar or Jon.

Sure, some of them are prisoners, and some of them aren't. Surely old Wythers who's been there longer than anyone can remember wasn't sent there for Robert's Rebellion, and we know that Denys Mallister volunteered while Aerys was king, and there are plenty of other examples. All you have is a single Royce in the Watch; that doesn't show any more special dedication than the Mallisters.

18 minutes ago, FylkirKarl said:

Your last point has no point as I'm not saying their not loyal banners to the Arryns nor are they biased against marriage to other families, I'm stating that it would be interesting and there is some evidence to suggest that they might hold to the Old Gods instead of the Seven.

Why would the same family become loyal bannermen to the Arryns and intermarry with them and other Andals, while also secretly keeping their old gods and only pretending to follow the Faith? It's not exactly easy to keep your religion from your wife and her father who's also your liege but still pass it on to your children.

And why would anyone keep it secret anyway? There are a few houses in the south that openly worship the Old Gods, and they don't seem to face any consequences for doing so. The Blackwoods are a respected and powerful house, and they're good enough for Targaryen Kings to marry.

Also, if there's some evidence to suggest they might hold to the Old Gods, what is it? Do we see Yohn or Waymar talk about the Old Gods, or take an oath in front of a tree? Does Runestone have a weirwood the way Raventree Hall does?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, FylkirKarl said:

As was the Iron Islanders most likely. I'm talking about willingly going to the wall of their own volition. That seems to be a trait of only First Men houses like Mallister, Royce, Stark, Mormont etc Falcotron.

But the fact that a family predates the Andal invasion is not evidence that they worship the Old Gods. Most of the major houses are originally First Men houses, and most of them now worship the Seven—including your example, the Mallisters, along with everyone from the Tullys to the Lannisters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Sure, some of them are prisoners, and some of them aren't. Surely old Wythers who's been there longer than anyone can remember wasn't sent there for Robert's Rebellion, and we know that Denys Mallister volunteered while Aerys was king, and there are plenty of other examples. All you have is a single Royce in the Watch; that doesn't show any more special dedication than the Mallisters.

Why would the same family become loyal bannermen to the Arryns and intermarry with them and other Andals, while also secretly keeping their old gods and only pretending to follow the Faith? It's not exactly easy to keep your religion from your wife and her father who's also your liege but still pass it on to your children.

And why would anyone keep it secret anyway? There are a few houses in the south that openly worship the Old Gods, and they don't seem to face any consequences for doing so. The Blackwoods are a respected and powerful house, and they're good enough for Targaryen Kings to marry.

Also, if there's some evidence to suggest they might hold to the Old Gods, what is it? Do we see Yohn or Waymar talk about the Old Gods, or take an oath in front of a tree? Does Runestone have a weirwood the way Raventree Hall does?

Again, I'm not saying that it's only First Men but the First Men houses tend to be more leaned toward volunteering for the Nights Watch, and the Mallisters are also a First Men house. So are the Marsh's and Tollet's. It's not a lie that the Northern/First Men houses are the predominant people to be in the Night's Watch, Northerners even more so, to deny it is to deny the fact that the Night's Watch is a First Men invention and is used by them the most, just like the Kingsguard being a Andal/Targaryen invention and being used predominantly by them.

Why would the Blackwoods intermarry with Bracken, Tully, Targaryen and such despite being Old God worshippers? Why would Catelyn Tully marry two Starks, notorious Old God worshippers? Because despite religion playing a large part in our medieval history, it's not as much in this one with the Old God's being help in the same respect as the Seven as they are both Westerosi. If you marry into Blackwood or Royce, you become part of that family and your like to not start blabbering secrets and it very well could be an open secret with the First Men of the Vale.

The reason to keep it a secret is because the Vale is the only kingdom the Andals conquered, everywhere else they married into with the exception of the Ironborn and North who kept their culture. If the Royce's came out as worshippers, they would lose a lot of respect as despite being an old and honored house, the First Men/Old Gods are still looked down upon, even the Blackwoods, in the South with Cersei's views being there enough along with the snide comments of them worshipping trees.

We don't know if Runestone has a weirwood or at least from what I've looked it doesn't, but absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence. It's no lie that House Royce keeps a sigil that has runes from the First Men, that they keep armor with runes from the First Men, and that they are the closest to the Northmen you will get in the South with their Lord being akin to Jon Umber.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, falcotron said:

But the fact that a family predates the Andal invasion is not evidence that they worship the Old Gods. Most of the major houses are originally First Men houses, and most of them now worship the Seven—including your example, the Mallisters, along with everyone from the Tullys to the Lannisters.

I'm not using the fact that they are First Men and predate the Andals so that means they worship the Old Gods. I'm using the fact that they're entire existence lends the idea that they are First Men > Andal despite being Andalized. Knighthood matters little when they use First Men armor, they use First Men names, their sigil has First Men runes, their keep has a First Men name, and that they still act like the First Men which we can gather from how the Northerners, Mountain Clans, and Wildlings act.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just saying I like this thread, and this is an interesting discussion. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, FylkirKarl said:

Again, I'm not saying that it's only First Men but the First Men houses tend to be more leaned toward volunteering for the Nights Watch, and the Mallisters are also a First Men house. So are the Marsh's and Tollet's. It's not a lie that the Northern/First Men houses are the predominant people to be in the Night's Watch, Northerners even more so, to deny it is to deny the fact that the Night's Watch is a First Men invention and is used by them the most, just like the Kingsguard being a Andal/Targaryen invention and being used predominantly by them.

I'm not at all denying that the Watch is a First Men tradition.

I'm denying that there's any correlation between First Men families that keep that tradition and First Men families that keep the Old Gods. There are First Men families all over Westeros, and outside the North, except for a very small handful of exceptions, they follow the Seven.

The Mallisters are a perfect example of that. If the Mallisters follow the Seven but still send sons to Watch because they're First Men, then how is the Royces sending sons to the Watch evidence that they follow the Old Gods? 

1 hour ago, FylkirKarl said:

Why would the Blackwoods intermarry with Bracken, Tully, Targaryen and such despite being Old God worshippers? Why would Catelyn Tully marry two Starks, notorious Old God worshippers?

But Cat doesn't keep her worship of the Seven a secret, and Betha Blackwood didn't keep her worship of the Old Gods a secret. And the families they married into didn't keep their religions secret. And it seems rare that anyone converts upon marrying.

You're suggesting that any woman who marries into Royce would have to be brought in on the secret and convinced to keep it even from her brother and her septon, to raise her children to secretly worship the Old Gods while pretending to worship the Seven even though she's a Seven worshipper herself. I can imagine many women doing this, but every single one for thousands of years? Especially when many of them were daughters and sisters of proud Andal conqueror kings?

1 hour ago, FylkirKarl said:

We don't know if Runestone has a weirwood or at least from what I've looked it doesn't, but absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence.

Sure, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, but it is absence of evidence. You're trying to argue that something is secretly true in the books even though we're told otherwise, and you need evidence for that. Otherwise it's not a theory, it's just "Wouldn't it be cool if…?" If I suggested that maybe an albino son of Garth Greenhand was the ancestor of all Valyrians, you'd ask me for some evidence, wouldn't you? 

1 hour ago, FylkirKarl said:

It's no lie that House Royce keeps a sigil that has runes from the First Men, that they keep armor with runes from the First Men

It's no lie that House Lannister's sigil goes back to the First Men hero Lann the Clever, that multiple Stormlands houses have the symbol of the sea god on their sigils, etc. So what?

Again, most of the major houses descend from First Men. If that's evidence that the Royces worship the Old Gods, it's evidence that all of them do.

1 hour ago, FylkirKarl said:

and that they are the closest to the Northmen you will get in the South with their Lord being akin to Jon Umber.

Where is it said that they're the closest to Northmen you will get in the South?

And the only place I remember Yohn Royce being compared to Jon Umber was something about how Sandor Clegane is bigger and taller than even Royce, maybe as big as the Greatjon, or something like that. I assume you have a better quote than that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, falcotron said:

I'm not at all denying that the Watch is a First Men tradition.

I'm denying that there's any correlation between First Men families that keep that tradition and First Men families that keep the Old Gods. There are First Men families all over Westeros, and outside the North, except for a very small handful of exceptions, they follow the Seven.

The Mallisters are a perfect example of that. If the Mallisters follow the Seven but still send sons to Watch because they're First Men, then how is the Royces sending sons to the Watch evidence that they follow the Old Gods? 

But Cat doesn't keep her worship of the Seven a secret, and Betha Blackwood didn't keep her worship of the Old Gods a secret. And the families they married into didn't keep their religions secret. And it seems rare that anyone converts upon marrying.

You're suggesting that any woman who marries into Royce would have to be brought in on the secret and convinced to keep it even from her brother and her septon, to raise her children to secretly worship the Old Gods while pretending to worship the Seven even though she's a Seven worshipper herself. I can imagine many women doing this, but every single one for thousands of years? Especially when many of them were daughters and sisters of proud Andal conqueror kings?

I'm just correlating this with them still having First Men traditions of family members volunteering for the Watch, I'm not saying that if you are a First Men volunteering for the NW you are an auto Old God worshipper, I'm not denying that.

Like I said, it very well could be an open secret among the First Men of the Vale or they very well could be one of the public Old God worshipping houses in the South because we're not told if they follow the Seven or the Old Gods, just that they have knighthoods.

33 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Sure, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, but it is absence of evidence. You're trying to argue that something is secretly true in the books even though we're told otherwise, and you need evidence for that. Otherwise it's not a theory, it's just "Wouldn't it be cool if…?" If I suggested that maybe an albino son of Garth Greenhand was the ancestor of all Valyrians, you'd ask me for some evidence, wouldn't you? 

One's a tinfoily example and the other is wondering if a First Men house of the Vale who still uses First Men armor and a First Men castle with a First Men sigil with First Men beliefs and a First Men attitude might still worship the Old Gods of the First Men.

33 minutes ago, falcotron said:

It's no lie that House Lannister's sigil goes back to the First Men hero Lann the Clever, that multiple Stormlands houses have the symbol of the sea god on their sigils, etc. So what?

Lann the Clever of House Lannister is most likely an Andal as the Andals are more fair haired than the First Men with the First Men usually having dark hair and eyes versus the lighter colored Andals. But like the post above, it doesn't stop at just the sigil that they use. They use rune-inscribed bronze armor, the only other people in Westeros that use bronze armor that we know of might be the Mountain tribes and House Thenn. House Royce is different also by the fact that we haven't heard of their faith, and this post is all really hopeful speculation like you said before, but most of the houses of the Stormlands that have sea god sigils and such have usually declared already. An example might be House Dondarrion who has the Storm God I believe and Beric was sworn to the Seven and later R'hllor.

33 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Again, most of the major houses descend from First Men. If that's evidence that the Royces worship the Old Gods, it's evidence that all of them do.

Where is it said that they're the closest to Northmen you will get in the South?

And the only place I remember Yohn Royce being compared to Jon Umber was something about how Sandor Clegane is bigger and taller than even Royce, maybe as big as the Greatjon, or something like that. I assume you have a better quote than that.

You keep using the argument that I've already consented to. Most of the First Men houses of the South, Tarly, Dayne, Crakehall, Mallister, etc believe in the Seven, but House Royce has at the least, kept their First Men traditions first and foremost over every other First Men house in the South besides the Blackwoods. It's not said that they are the closest to the Northmen in the South but by might own observation, you tell me which house in the Southern Kingdoms is most similar to the Northmen? Royce? Blackwood? Who? They have the attitude that most Northerners have, they have the same respect for the NW, they keep to their traditions despite being Andalized, and they value honour/loyalty/duty which is a thing shared by the North and Vale. I'll admit the comparison I made between Jon Umber and Yohn Royce is really just my observation of them being First Men to the bone, but I'll concede that observation if I can as it has no purpose in the debate we're having.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Something that has no bearing on proving the point either way but is fun to bring in...

There was once a forum member who suggested that Coldhands was the result of attempted wighting on a NW brother who had sworn his vows in front of a heart tree...aka one who follows the Old Gods. If this idea is correct (which can't be proven at this point) then Waymar Royce at least is not a closet OG follower, as he was wighted just fine. 

I would think of House Royce follows the Old Gods in general, they would do so openly. The only thing that remotely indicates which religion they might follow is that both Robar and Waymar are knights, and that's an Andal and Faith of the Seven custom. That could be a case of their mother being of the Faith, while their father keeps the old ways. They do have a septon in the household, but then so did the Starks.

Just looked up House Royce in the wiki. Didn't know they had a runic crown. Cool stuff! Also Dolorous Edd's house is sworn to House Royce.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Reach is full of Fist Man families (they're actually the majority of the higher lords, by an overwhelming margin), and that is the 'home base' of the Faith of the Seven, so I'm inclined to be skeptical of questioning a House's religion based on their ancestry.  That said, I do think that the Royces have something going on, based on all the other factors.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll consent that there's very little to actually prove what faith the Royce's have other than the fact that they have a Septon in their household and with Andar/Robar/Waymar being Nights but in favor of it is what I've said previously. At the very least, they "remember" there roots/history which is what their house words are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎9‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 2:39 PM, falcotron said:

There's no evidence of them being Old Gods worshippers.

Also, Waymar Royce is hardly the only non-Northern noble in the watch. Look at the list of Current Rangers—there actually seem to be more Crownlands houses there (Rosby, Thorne, Follard, Rykker…) than Northern, and there are also families from everywhere from the Iron Islands to the Reach.

Meanwhile, the Royces were one of the major kingdoms of the Vale, and united the houses in defense against the Andals—but once they lost, they immediately bent the knee to the Arryns, and have been their most faithful allies ever since. They also seem to intermarry happily with other families from Arryn to Frey to Targaryen.

Thorne and Rykker was sent to the wall by Tywin .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i think there is a very clear assumption that the Royces and the Blackwoods are Old God worshippers.

Recall that the FIRST Sept ever built at Winterfell was for Catelyn, so it must be assumed that the various Royce and Blackwood women who married and came North either had no religion or were Old God worshipers. Now we can sort of guess that many if not all the Blackwoods have links to the old Gods and are skin changers, and we NOW know that they were originally a Northern House driven south because of their skin changing.

I have always assumed that the Royces, wearing their runes etc also are worshipers of the Old Gods - at least in part.

Moreover we know that the extension of the faith of the 7 to Northerners is quite recent, given that Ser Jeor's father and his sisters follow the Old Gods.

Indeed I have a vague theory that it was Ned's decision to allow a Sept at Winterfell that allowed the Other to rise again by weakening the power of the Old Gods.

Same for any Manderley, except that they are worshipers not exactly of the Old Gods but of one of the First men gods ie Garth Greenhand. This is of course critical to the story line.

There are dual elements as in most ancient European religions - Summer and Winter, Spring and fall, Life and death,night and day,and  of course ice and fire.

Now we see the representations of the ancient themes everywhere in GoT

Summer: Bran and his wolf,/Winter: Most of the Starks

Summer fertility or the King of Summer: Garth Greenhand (also we know the Manaderlys (who are knights of his order) and I think SAM

Jack Frost: aka Jon Snow or the King of Winter

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem is that there'd be no reason to keep their religion a secret. So no, I don't think they're secret old gods worshippers.

What you're looking at, I think, is synthesis and imitation. Conversion doesn't whipe out a previous religion. Parts of it stick. Easter eggs. Christmas trees. Synthesis of Christian and Pagan. Now, this synthesis doesn't have to be the same for every group  of converts; in  parts of South America & parts of Africa, pagan or voodoo deities have been subsumed into the Christian saints- catalogue. In the Baltic, rituals as fire jumping have. Etc etc. 

I'm guessing that the initial converts of the Royce region simply hung on to more rituals and aspects of the old religion / fm culture. This doesn't make the conversion any less sincere, but it does create more synthesis. Perhaps, throughout time, parts of this eroded as it might have been viewed backwards or unnecessary. Perhaps even later, parts of it might have been restored, as it clearly helps Royce PR branding to stress their reputation as an ancient house.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've always found the construction of the Eyrie rather curious.  The weirwood throne so suggestive of greenseers. The Bloody Gate where anyone seeking passage is asked 'who will pass' not unlike the Black Gate; which is also a Moon Door.  Robyn's refrain to let the 'bad' man fly; the test of a greenseer.  Bran is flying so high in his coma dream that he can see across continents.  

There is some memory of the old gods built right into the architecture that ties them to the black gate, greenseers and the Night's Watch. 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0