purple-eyes

Robert rebellion was based on a lie, by whom?

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Lots of people believed Rhaegar kidnaped and raped Lyanna, yet the truth was that R and L were in deep love and they married happily and secretly. It was a honeymoon, not a crime. 

So obviously there was a lie, but made by whom? 

1.  Little finger. He seems to know something when he talked with Sansa before statue of Lyanna. He loved Cat and felt jealous towards Brandon. He was badly injured by Brandon too. So when a teenager (15?), badly-injured Little finger stayed in a litter on his way back to fingers, he somehow saw Lyanna and Rhaegar ran off together like two lovebirds. Then later he somehow informed Brandon that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. Then Brandon believed and got angry and ran to KL. 

2. Robert. Since Rhaegar bravely annulled his marriage to make himself single again to marry Lyanna, Lyanna decided to send a letter to Robert her future-husband to break up and tell him she chose Rhaegar over him. Yet Robert was angry and insulted so he sent a message to Brandon that Lyanna was kidnapped. Rest is the same. 

3. Rhaegar and Lyanna. Lyanna loved Rhaegar and wanted to elope, but she is still a honorable Stark. She did not want people to say house Stark broke their holy betroth because their defiant daughter ran off with crown prince. She did not want Robert to make trouble with House Stark either. she and Rhaegar planned this "kidnapping on swordpoint", so that she would look like an innocent victim. Rhaegar would take all the blame yet Lyanna and Stark's honor is still intact. Then her companion of course will tell Brandon and everybody she was "kidnapped". Rest is the same. 

What is your opinion? 

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It wasn't a lie. In a clan-based society, the girl's consent doesn't matter. Her family decides who she gets to sleep with. So, while not rape by modern standards, it was by medieval. OK, it wasn't as Rhaegar actually married her. But nobody knows that. 

And of course, it wasn't Rhaegar and Lyanna eloping that started the war, it was Aerys killing Ned Stark's father and older brother and demanding that Jon Arryn hand over Ned as well. 

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1 hour ago, Loge said:

It wasn't a lie. In a clan-based society, the girl's consent doesn't matter. Her family decides who she gets to sleep with. So, while not rape by modern standards, it was by medieval. OK, it wasn't as Rhaegar actually married her. But nobody knows that. 

And of course, it wasn't Rhaegar and Lyanna eloping that started the war, it was Aerys killing Ned Stark's father and older brother and demanding that Jon Arryn hand over Ned as well. 

This. It doesn't matter if they were 'secretly married', secret marriages have absolutely no meaning in feudal law (due to the fact that, you know, no-one knows they're married), but hey, D & D had the HEARTWARMING MUSIC OF SIGNIFICANCE™ so I guess that means we're supposed to think it would have somehow meant something.

D & D clearly want us to think Robert's Rebellion was a lie, not exactly sure why, but they want us to think that. However, the sheer fact they kept it secret led to Rickard and Brandon Stark's deaths, along with Aerys 'the Mad King' demanding the heads of Ned Stark and Bobby B, Jon Arryn's foster kids.

And this demonstration of unadulterated insanity and tyranny was not a lie. But hey, D & D want you to think that it was, so just... roll with it. They'll probably spend the first half of Season Eight clubbing you over the head with it, because of how SUBTLE™ and NUANCED™ their writing style is.

Edited by Beardy the Wildling

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Well, Rhaegar probably kept the marriage secret because he couldn't afford to alienate the Dornish more than he already had. He would have annoiunced it after the war was won. And the whole marriage isn't something D&D made up. The whole L+R=J thing hasn't been revealed in the books yet but they were probably married there, too. The presence of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy makes no sense if they weren't. They were there to protect the king.

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18 minutes ago, Loge said:

Well, Rhaegar probably kept the marriage secret because he couldn't afford to alienate the Dornish more than he already had. He would have annoiunced it after the war was won. And the whole marriage isn't something D&D made up. The whole L+R=J thing hasn't been revealed in the books yet but they were probably married there, too. The presence of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy makes no sense if they weren't. They were there to protect the king.

All right, R + L = J is almost certainly true, as even GRRM is hamfisted in its foreshadowing. But why is there a need for Jon to be legitimate? Unlike the show, the books don't make Jon out to be the perfect action hero mary sue protagonist bailed out by five Deus ex Machinas a season.

Edited by Beardy the Wildling

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Well, there's the prince that was promised prophecy. We don't know if that's Jon or Dany, but bastard that was promised doesn't sound so great... If Jon is legitimate he also is the rightful (Targaryen) king. Maybe that's important for the rest of the story. Hard to tell the implications at this point. But there is circumstantial evidence for it in the books and the whole GRRM doesn't do this and doesn't do that isn't really a valid argument. He writes Fantasy, after all. He just does it better than most writers.

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No specific person made up the lie. If anyone is to blame, it's Rhaegar and/or Lyanna. They ran away, even though he was married and she betrothed, and from what we know they told no one but the Kingsguards.

This is a deeply irresponsible behaviour and let to a massive catastrophe in the form of a civil war and the deaths of not only themselves, but also their family members and thousands upon thousands of soldiers, civilians, knights and lords. Rhaegars idiocy is unbelievable. How is it possible that a man loved by everyone (except Robert) causes all this and then doesn't even try to stop it by telling the truth?

And Lyanna. I almost can't believe she chose lust and love before her family. Her fiancé? Sure - she didn't chose him, but still we have no indication that she hated him ("Love is sweet, dear Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature" is all we've read her say about Robert, and that does not seem hateful). Although she must have heard of her father's and brother's deaths, and that her other brother and fiancé were marching to war, and that her lover and husband was going to do his best to kill Robert and route Ned's army, and even if he didn't intend on killing him ...marching on someone with 35 000 men means there's a high probability that he dies.
 

Lyanna Stark chose lust and love above her own family's lives. Is that what is meant by "willful"? She also knew that Robert loved her, and that he had no reason to suspect she ran off willingly. Likely Robert wouldn't have believed the raven scroll saying she loved Rhaegar and was going to marry him, but isn't one failed raven worth the shot at stopping a massive war where her family tries to kill his family and vice versa?

Also ... Rickard tried to marry Lyanna off for southron ambitions. The lord of Storm's End and the liege lord of all the Stormlands is a dear, dear price ... but he would have been even happier having his grandkid sit the Iron Throne. Surely both he and Brandon would accept it - Ned definitely would.

There's still the problem with Aerys though, and since the war wasn't based on a lie but on murder and conspiracy to commit murder, it's likely it would have happened anyway - the rebels simply had no choice. But Lyanna did, and there is not a single evidence suggesting she tried to stop the disastrous upcoming events.

 

I'm not bashing Rhaegar as much because I have no hope in him being a good man. Lyanna's actions bothers me though.

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35 minutes ago, Loge said:

Well, there's the prince that was promised prophecy. We don't know if that's Jon or Dany, but bastard that was promised doesn't sound so great... If Jon is legitimate he also is the rightful (Targaryen) king. Maybe that's important for the rest of the story. Hard to tell the implications at this point. But there is circumstantial evidence for it in the books and the whole GRRM doesn't do this and doesn't do that isn't really a valid argument. He writes Fantasy, after all. He just does it better than most writers.

So making Jon a mary sue super-secret heir to the Iron Throne and the best action hero who ever action heroed is somehow 'better than most writers'. Seems you're easily impressed.

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4 hours ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

This. It doesn't matter if they were 'secretly married', secret marriages have absolutely no meaning in feudal law (due to the fact that, you know, no-one knows they're married), but hey, D & D had the HEARTWARMING MUSIC OF SIGNIFICANCE™ so I guess that means we're supposed to think it would have somehow meant something.

D & D clearly want us to think Robert's Rebellion was a lie, not exactly sure why, but they want us to think that. However, the sheer fact they kept it secret led to Rickard and Brandon Stark's deaths, along with Aerys 'the Mad King' demanding the heads of Ned Stark and Bobby B, Jon Arryn's foster kids.

And this demonstration of unadulterated insanity and tyranny was not a lie. But hey, D & D want you to think that it was, so just... roll with it. They'll probably spend the first half of Season Eight clubbing you over the head with it, because of how SUBTLE™ and NUANCED™ their writing style is.

That wasn't the case in feudal England. Edward the Fourth had a secret marriage to Elizabeth Woodville, which had huge historical consequences (this was probably an influence on Robb's marriage and downfall, seeing as it was in the Wars of the Roses. Also, if you've read the Princess and the Queen, he pissed off the real life "Kingmaker"). http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/berkshire/hi/people_and_places/history/newsid_9228000/9228953.stm

Obviously someone knows they're married- the septon, who recorded it with the Citadel (I guess a Westerosi marriage doesn't require witnesses? I can't recall any being mentioned in book or show).

In any case, you could say Robert's rebellion was caused by a lie- as in Brandon demanded combat because he thought Lyanna was abducted, which caused his and Rickard's deaths, which caused the demand for Ned and Robert's head, which caused Jon Arryn's rebellion (as I've always thought it should be called). But it wasn't really based on a lie.

Edited by mankytoes

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2 hours ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

So making Jon a mary sue super-secret heir to the Iron Throne and the best action hero who ever action heroed is somehow 'better than most writers'. Seems you're easily impressed.

Is Jon really a Mary-Sue? Wouldn't a true Mary Sue not need to be rescued so many times. The TV show paints Jon as a good man who has his eyes on the right mission but who is reckless, prone to anger and so desperate to be the hero and lead from the front he puts himself in situations where he always needs to be saved generally by women. I would think a real Mary sue would be shown as competent. Jon is just the luckiest man in the world. 

Although some times I think him being so lucky is part of the point. In that world, or even in our world, you don't go from being a bastard junior night watch recruit to putting yourself in position to becoming King consort of Westeros by marrying the Dragon Queen without an insane amount of luck and good fortune.

Edited by jcmontea

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11 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

Lots of people believed Rhaegar kidnaped and raped Lyanna, yet the truth was that R and L were in deep love and they married happily and secretly. It was a honeymoon, not a crime. 

So obviously there was a lie, but made by whom? 

1.  Little finger. He seems to know something when he talked with Sansa before statue of Lyanna. He loved Cat and felt jealous towards Brandon. He was badly injured by Brandon too. So when a teenager (15?), badly-injured Little finger stayed in a litter on his way back to fingers, he somehow saw Lyanna and Rhaegar ran off together like two lovebirds. Then later he somehow informed Brandon that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. Then Brandon believed and got angry and ran to KL. 

2. Robert. Since Rhaegar bravely annulled his marriage to make himself single again to marry Lyanna, Lyanna decided to send a letter to Robert her future-husband to break up and tell him she chose Rhaegar over him. Yet Robert was angry and insulted so he sent a message to Brandon that Lyanna was kidnapped. Rest is the same. 

3. Rhaegar and Lyanna. Lyanna loved Rhaegar and wanted to elope, but she is still a honorable Stark. She did not want people to say house Stark broke their holy betroth because their defiant daughter ran off with crown prince. She did not want Robert to make trouble with House Stark either. she and Rhaegar planned this "kidnapping on swordpoint", so that she would look like an innocent victim. Rhaegar would take all the blame yet Lyanna and Stark's honor is still intact. Then her companion of course will tell Brandon and everybody she was "kidnapped". Rest is the same. 

What is your opinion? 

The lie will be shown to have been orchestrated by Tywin Lannister who didn't waste his time twidling his thumbs at Casterly Rock but worked to take down the King who dared slight him and take away his heir. 

Thats my current tin foil theory.

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1 hour ago, jcmontea said:

Is Jon really a Mary-Sue? Wouldn't a true Mary Sue not need to be rescued so many times. The TV show paints Jon as a good man who has his eyes on the right mission but who is reckless, prone to anger and so desperate to be the hero and lead from the front he puts himself in situations where he always needs to be saved generally by women. I would think a real Mary sue would be shown as competent. Jon is just the luckiest man in the world. 

Although some times I think him being so lucky is part of the point. In that world, or even in our world, you don't go from being a bastard junior night watch recruit to putting yourself in position to becoming King consort of Westeros by marrying the Dragon Queen without an insane amount of luck and good fortune.

Actually, no, a Mary Sue can be rescued multiple times, the only true factor a Mary Sue needs to have is next to no flaws, or only superficial, easily-glossed over flaws (or real flaws that the universe never punishes him for), such obvious goodness that anyone who opposes him is obviously EVHUL or misguided, and the story's universe's rules to basically bend over backwards for him.

For example, getting stabbed by his brothers in the show is not, like it is in the books, a consequence of him priorotising personal vengeance and desires over the Night's Watch, but instead just 'We're xenophobic, lol, let's stab Jon for caring about human rights'. Then Jon, who's too good for this sinful earth, dies, but is GLORIOUSLY RESURRECTED by Melisandre. Already breaking one of the cardinal rules there by having him come back as a messianic figure.

But hey, he could come back as a fire wight, slowly losing more of himself like Beric in the books, right? WRONG. He instead mulls over coming back from actual fucking death for an episode then pursues REAL MAN™ vengeance against Ramsay Snow. Oh wait, he uses his authority as Lord Commander to kill his killers, then says his death frees him from his oath, meaning he tactically and conveniently used his Night's Watch vows loophole only after he killed his killers; this could be explored as maybe, a morally grey, antiheroic action.

Nope! He's still treated as the goodest good that ever gooded by Dolorous Edd, who he's thrown the responsibility of Lord Commander on without a vote. Because he's a mary sue, people just accept his word as law when they're not EVHUL. He selfishly claims he's going to 'get warm', then receives a letter from Ramsay making him want to take Winterfell to save Sansa.

Later, when the Battle of the Bastards comes up, he's accepted by the only obviously sympathetic Northern lord (or lady) on-screen, while Glover is depicted as a massive twat for having a problem with him. Given that no-one should know that Jon's an actual back-from-dead guy, why aren't people bringing up that Jon's a bastard Night's Watch deserter, you know, the crime Ned Stark was seen beheading someone out of duty over? Well, because that would make Jon seem selfish for saying 'fuck the Watch' in their time of need, wouldn't it?

He has a way smaller army, he marches against the superior force with 'the army he has', and predictably gets crushed. But don't worry! Deus ex Vale Army pops up just in the nick of time. Jon has, at this point, led a suicidal charge and fucked over most of his Northman and wildling army, just to be saved by the knights of the Vale brought in by the Trueborn Lady of Winterfell, Sansa. And when they win the battle and reclaim Winterfell, does anyone call him out on his foolhardy insanity?

No! They commend him for his valiant nature, Wolken treats him with the authority he should be treating Sansa pre-emptively, and he's declared King in the North for the valiant deed of... fucking over his loyal armies by charging them at a superior army and getting his ass saved by his sister.

Now fast forward to this season. Jon again fucks up by leading the moronic wight hunt, is deus ex machina'd twice, once by Dany, and, because he moronically chose to stay on the ground and keep fighting, again by Uncle Benjen, costs Daenerys a fucking dragon and indirectly makes the wall fall, and how is he rewarded? Sex with Daenerys, and a 'heartwarming' reveal that his parents WUR TOTES IN LOVE and he's the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne and thus is going to be the bestest king that ever kinged by the end of the story.

Jon in the show is a brainless action hero whose universe bends over backwards just to make him be exulted even when time after time, he makes stupid decisions that the writers have made him do. He's treated like a hero for, as far as the people working with him know, deserting the Night's Watch, leading suicidal charge after suicidal charge, handing an undead army a fucking dragon, and usurping his trueborn sibling's role as ruler of Winterfell.

He is most certainly a mary sue.

Edited by Beardy the Wildling

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14 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

Actually, no, a Mary Sue can be rescued multiple times, the only true factor a Mary Sue needs to have is next to no flaws, or only superficial, easily-glossed over flaws (or real flaws that the universe never punishes him for), such obvious goodness that anyone who opposes him is obviously EVHUL or misguided, and the story's universe's rules to basically bend over backwards for him.

For example, getting stabbed by his brothers in the show is not, like it is in the books, a consequence of him priorotising personal vengeance and desires over the Night's Watch, but instead just 'We're xenophobic, lol, let's stab Jon for caring about human rights'. Then Jon, who's too good for this sinful earth, dies, but is GLORIOUSLY RESURRECTED by Melisandre. Already breaking one of the cardinal rules there by having him come back as a messianic figure.

But hey, he could come back as a fire wight, slowly losing more of himself like Beric in the books, right? WRONG. He instead mulls over coming back from actual fucking death for an episode then pursues REAL MAN™ vengeance against Ramsay Snow. Oh wait, he uses his authority as Lord Commander to kill his killers, then says his death frees him from his oath, meaning he tactically and conveniently used his Night's Watch vows loophole only after he killed his killers; this could be explored as maybe, a morally grey, antiheroic action.

Nope! He's still treated as the goodest good that ever gooded by Dolorous Edd, who he's thrown the responsibility of Lord Commander on without a vote. Because he's a mary sue, people just accept his word as law when they're not EVHUL. He selfishly claims he's going to 'get warm', then receives a letter from Ramsay making him want to take Winterfell to save Sansa.

Later, when the Battle of the Bastards comes up, he's accepted by the only obviously sympathetic Northern lord (or lady) on-screen, while Glover is depicted as a massive twat for having a problem with him. Given that no-one should know that Jon's an actual back-from-dead guy, why aren't people bringing up that Jon's a bastard Night's Watch deserter, you know, the crime Ned Stark was seen beheading someone out of duty over? Well, because that would make Jon seem selfish for saying 'fuck the Watch' in their time of need, wouldn't it?

He has a way smaller army, he marches against the superior force with 'the army he has', and predictably gets crushed. But don't worry! Deus ex Vale Army pops up just in the nick of time. Jon has, at this point, led a suicidal charge and fucked over most of his Northman and wildling army, just to be saved by the knights of the Vale brought in by the Trueborn Lady of Winterfell, Sansa. And when they win the battle and reclaim Winterfell, does anyone call him out on his foolhardy insanity?

No! They commend him for his valiant nature, Wolken treats him with the authority he should be treating Sansa pre-emptively, and he's declared King in the North for the valiant deed of... fucking over his loyal armies by charging them at a superior army and getting his ass saved by his sister.

Now fast forward to this season. Jon again fucks up by leading the moronic wight hunt, is deus ex machina'd twice, once by Dany, and, because he moronically chose to stay on the ground and keep fighting, again by Uncle Benjen, costs Daenerys a fucking dragon and indirectly makes the wall fall, and how is he rewarded? Sex with Daenerys, and a 'heartwarming' reveal that his parents WUR TOTES IN LOVE and he's the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne and thus is going to be the bestest king that ever kinged by the end of the story.

Jon in the show is a brainless action hero whose universe bends over backwards just to make him be exulted even when time after time, he makes stupid decisions that the writers have made him do. He's treated like a hero for, as far as the people working with him know, deserting the Night's Watch, leading suicidal charge after suicidal charge, handing an undead army a fucking dragon, and usurping his trueborn sibling's role as ruler of Winterfell.

He is most certainly a mary sue.

I guess ifs a definitional thing. Based on my understanding of the term (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue) the character has to be perfect in order to truly be a Mary Sue. 

But semantics aside, I do agree with you that its a bit unsettling how Jon's rise in the show is driven by both crazy insane good fortune that is not a result of character traits or innate talent and straight up sexism. The only reason he is named King in the North instead of Sansa is because he is a man. He did not avenge the red wedding like that dumbass Glover said. Sansa and Arya avenged the Red Wedding. 

If he ends up rulling instead of Daenerys or he is Azor Ahai and she is Nissa Nissa and is sacrificed I will feel like my investment in this series was a total waste of time. If the main male character is going to end up ahead of the main female character it has to be because he is better not just because he is a man (his rightful claim) or because Destiny choose him. Up until now the only thing Jon Snow has been better than Daenerys at is using a sword. 

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12 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

I guess ifs a definitional thing. Based on my understanding of the term (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue) the character has to be perfect in order to truly be a Mary Sue. 

But semantics aside, I do agree with you that its a bit unsettling how Jon's rise in the show is driven by both crazy insane good fortune that is not a result of character traits or innate talent and straight up sexism. The only reason he is named King in the North instead of Sansa is because he is a man. He did not avenge the red wedding like that dumbass Glover said. Sansa and Arya avenged the Red Wedding. 

If he ends up rulling instead of Daenerys or he is Azor Ahai and she is Nissa Nissa and is sacrificed I will feel like my investment in this series was a total waste of time. If the main male character is going to end up ahead of the main female character it has to be because he is better not just because he is a man (his rightful claim) or because Destiny choose him. Up until now the only thing Jon Snow has been better than Daenerys at is using a sword. 

I agree. As deadpanny as Emilia Clarke's acting is with Daenerys, we at least know she's done a fuck ton in terms of her leadership resume. Jon has nothing but failures on his.

Edited by Beardy the Wildling

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I think the whole purpose of the war was to get rid of Aerys.  This goes back to the atrocities at Duskendale where Aerys slaughtered everyone including children.  It's Ned's purpose as he tells Robert, he thought the war was to stop the killing children.  It's also Rhaegar's purpose in conspiring to replace Aerys at the Tourney of Harrenhall and it's also Varys purpose.  He claims to act for the good of the realm and for the children although it doesn't stop him for sacrificing anyone in service of his purpose, including children.

The lie is that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna.  Although not so much a lie as a misconception.  I think it is probably Robert himself who is the first to accuse Rhaegar and once an arrow is shot, you can't take it back.  Lyanna disappears on the way to Brandon's wedding and when she doesn't show up and Rhaegar is inexplicably absent as we find out when he goes to KL; I think Robert puts two and two together and comes up with the wrong math.  Rhaegar is likely taking steps to remove and hide Aegon since he is the all important PWIP and that's why he's awol.

Ned has likely hidden Lyanna with Howland Reed at Greywater Watch; a place that no raven can find and so we have no news of her whatsoever.  She doesn't come back into the picture until Ned leaves the Eyrie to call his banners.  He must go to Greywater Watch in person.  From there he goes to Winterfell.    

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Nice post, let me give a look at our suspects.

 

18 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

1. Little finger. He seems to know something when he talked with Sansa before statue of Lyanna. He loved Cat and felt jealous towards Brandon. He was badly injured by Brandon too. So when a teenager (15?), badly-injured Little finger stayed in a litter on his way back to fingers, he somehow saw Lyanna and Rhaegar ran off together like two lovebirds. Then later he somehow informed Brandon that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. Then Brandon believed and got angry and ran to KL. 

Possible, this is really possible, at least in the books.

 

18 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

2. Robert. Since Rhaegar bravely annulled his marriage to make himself single again to marry Lyanna, Lyanna decided to send a letter to Robert her future-husband to break up and tell him she chose Rhaegar over him. Yet Robert was angry and insulted so he sent a message to Brandon that Lyanna was kidnapped. Rest is the same. 

Very unlikely.

I don't think Lyanna needed to say anything to Robert, it's not as if they had a "relationship". Rickard promised Lyanna to Robert, but Robert would not "own" her until they married. The only person Lyanna needed to say something was her father.

 

Also, despite his twisted sense of honor, i don't believe Robert would do such a thing. If Robert wanted to do something, he would bring his discontent to Rickard Stark, the man who promised his own daughter to him, not Brandon Stark. Brandon was the heir to Winterfell, but it was Rickard who had the last word in anything regarding his family.

 

18 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

3. Rhaegar and Lyanna. Lyanna loved Rhaegar and wanted to elope, but she is still a honorable Stark. She did not want people to say house Stark broke their holy betroth because their defiant daughter ran off with crown prince. She did not want Robert to make trouble with House Stark either. she and Rhaegar planned this "kidnapping on swordpoint", so that she would look like an innocent victim. Rhaegar would take all the blame yet Lyanna and Stark's honor is still intact. Then her companion of course will tell Brandon and everybody she was "kidnapped". Rest is the same. 

What is your opinion? 

This is very unlikely as well. Those two had a reputation of being good people before they decided to hook up, it seems they allowed love(or prophecy?) to guide them, but this is all we know for now. Everything regarding how they planned(or not planned) their elopment is a mystery, we gonna have to wait on George for this one(i know, it hurts me to say this)

 

 

However, I would like to nominate another character, i believe the lies came from somewhere else, and since we are just theorizing, i think it's fine.

Bear in mind that i don't have anything to support any of this, it's pure speculation, but i always thought that something was wrong with this guy.

And by this guy, i mean...Ethan Glover.

I always thought it was very strange that Ethan Glover was the only one who survived while Aerys killed all the others(including Ethan's father), and the first name Catelyn mentioned when she remembered those who went with Brandon to King's Landing, was Ethan's. George clearly wanted this guy to be important in some form, otherwise, why allow him to live only for him to die at the Tower of Joy later?

My theory is this: I believe Ethan Glover was in love with Lyanna Stark, he was Brandon's squire, and would have been close with the Starks while he was at Winterfell.

They say Brandon heard about Lyanna's abduction, but from who? and who saw this? i think the person holding all these secrets is Ethan Glover. I don't know exactly how(obviously), but Ethan did know(saw?) that Lyanna run away with Rhaegar, and if Ethan loved her, he would have hated Rhaegar to death.

I believe Ethan was the one who told Brandon that Rhaegar kidnapped his sister, so Rhaegar would have to pay for stealing something Ethan wanted. And if Ethan told something like this to Brandon, it means he was not a honorable person, if anything, he was ready to do dishonorable things to get what he wanted. How he survived in King's Landing is a puzzle to me, but something tells me he made a deal with "someone" in King's Landing, and told them things they might have wanted to know, and that's probably how he was able to survive.

Another thing that i find curious is that he accompanied Ned to the Tower of Joy, did Ned ask Ethan to go with him? i don't think so, i believe Ethan wanted to go(by obvious reasons).

His later death at the Tower of Joy by the hands of the Kingsguards could be seen as justice if this is true.

What you think of my theory? again, i have nothing to support it, only my suspicions?

 

Edited by theMADdestScientist_

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Considering the event that actually started the rebellion was the burning of Rickard Stark and the strangling of Brandon Stark, I fail to see how it was based on a lie. 

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Tywin Lannister had a lot to gain. His daughter was not accepted as Rhaegar's wife but with Rhaegar gone she could marry another king. Tywin also had grudge against Targaryens for Jaime taking Kingsguard, when in fact Cersei talked Jaime into it. LF likely had something to do with things, too, I can imagine.

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On 9/8/2017 at 10:36 PM, purple-eyes said:

 

3. Rhaegar and Lyanna. Lyanna loved Rhaegar and wanted to elope, but she is still a honorable Stark. She did not want people to say house Stark broke their holy betroth because their defiant daughter ran off with crown prince. She did not want Robert to make trouble with House Stark either. she and Rhaegar planned this "kidnapping on swordpoint", so that she would look like an innocent victim. Rhaegar would take all the blame yet Lyanna and Stark's honor is still intact. Then her companion of course will tell Brandon and everybody she was "kidnapped". Rest is the same. 

What is your opinion? 

I always assumed that Lyanna disappeared without a word to anyone which is why people assumed she was kidnapped. Everyone assumed that had she run away voluntarily she would've mentioned it someone. Maybe Benjen knew but kept silent, we don't know yet why he joined the NW.

I don't think anybody was involved in spreading lies.

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1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

I always assumed that Lyanna disappeared without a word to anyone which is why people assumed she was kidnapped. Everyone assumed that had she run away voluntarily she would've mentioned it someone. Maybe Benjen knew but kept silent, we don't know yet why he joined the NW.

I don't think anybody was involved in spreading lies.

The problem is that if Lyanna simply disappeared mysteriously, how did people think it was Rhaegar kidnapped her? 

somebody must have seen R and L were together and also this person had to see something to decide it was a kidnapping not a voluntarily eloping. 

History book said that Rhaegar and his companions carried off Lyanna at the location of around 10 leagues outside Harrenhal. 

This sounds like an account from witness. 

 

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