(Spoilers) - The War makes no sense

[jcmontea]

53 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

In bad-to-moderate writing, yes, and as I said, it's fine to consider bad writing entertaining; I only get frustrated when people treat it as revolutionary stuff, and thus treat the writers of the stuff as flawless Gods who can't be wrong or apathetic about a thing (hence my hostility/egging of Megarova, but my more slightly charged disagreeing tone with you).

I get my standards from Elanor Roosevelt's famous hierarchy of intellect:

"Ordinary people talk about people, somewhat intelligent people talk about politics, truly intelligent people talk about ideas."

And in my opinion, the best justification for inconsistencies and contrivances is satisfying these talking points in some way. So let's take a look at A Song of Ice and Fire for how each demographic can take something away from, say, the Frey Pies and escalating tensions in Bolton-run Winterfell.

Ordinary person: WHOOOOA, Wyman Manderly's a badass, getting revenge for the Starks and doing something as crazy as baking them into pies! Shit's going down and Wyman Manderly's throat is slit by Hosteen Frey for making a sick burn about that dumb dead Big Walder! I'm not gonna ask questions about how he managed to bake the missing Freys into pies, even if it would be very difficult to get away with it logistically.

Somewhat intelligent person: One can see Roose Bolton and Ramsay Bolton clearly struggling to keep order. There's been random deaths throughout Winterfell of their men, Umbers both ostensibly on their side and not on their side, Manderlys and Dustins who hate them but who they have to honour as guests as nominal allies, and Freys who are reliable allies but a walking 'fuck me' sign in the eyes of the northerners. Roose Bolton clearly wants to send the Manderlys and the Umbers out to fight Stannis so they can keep the Freys, the one the Boltons are most in bed with, close and safe, while sending potential traitors off to die. However, Wyman pissing the Freys off leading to a violent outburst forces Roose's hand; he now has to send the Freys out to make it seem like he's on the side of order and sending out the violent ones. This is an interesting look into how realpolitik functions in a hornet's nest of tensions, desperation, and cabin fever. While it's a bit stupid that Wyman Manderly could ever pull this insanity off without someone noticing, the point is that the Boltons are having to play a delicate political game here, and that's rather interesting to follow.

Intelligent person: Wyman Manderly's actions, while understandable and likely supported by many people, is ultimately destructive. Nothing was earned from him making the Frey Pies other than a statement, the reactions to which mean nothing to a man with a slashed throat. It's just more depravity; no different from the depravity of the Red Wedding. It could possibly show how the depravity of man is infectious; we respond like with like to a point where 'justice' is just the atrocities of the people we're conditioned to like. Or - * insert other general ideas on the human condition, not just analytical realpolitik*. As moronic as it is that no-one would have noticed the Frey Pies being made, this is somewhat trivialised by the possibility of themes here; when is revenge justified and when is it not? Can it achieve anything? What can people like Hosteen Frey, people with genuine attachments to the truly vile, expect to be treated like, and why is it acceptable for the majority of humanity to forget Hosteen's own? There are many questions brought up by this, perhaps enough that I'll overlook the stupid logistical issues.

GRRM has been quite adept at writing something that has a little bit of everything for every sort of audience, depending on what I'd say isn't truly the intellect of the readers, but how willing a reader is to actively digest the medium they're enjoying rather than just passively indulging in a story with their brain doing the bare minimum. Hence, while I can't just bloody ignore the contrivances to make scenes like that happen, I understand that the talking points brought up by it are at least somewhat valuable on multiple levels.

So while I accept your position of 'I liked it because it was full of spectacle, satisfying revenge, torture porn etc', and I prefer it to propping up D & D as good writers, you've got to accept that it is the bare minimum required of any storyteller. It's the thing that any writing, not necessarily literature, does. Thus, it can't be called good writing, and arguably not worth the contrivances required for certain parts of it to occur. D & D's writing is... serviceable, for getting the ordinary crowd to talk, and most of the time the contrivances lead to the talking points in a way that you can't fully blame them for wanting to ignore them, I just don't see any broader, larger talking points in the 'somewhat intelligent' and 'intelligent' categories.

Cersei's S6 plot has the following:

Ordinary person: Whoa, Cersei's in a tough sitch that she's brought on herself. But she's got the Zombie Mountain and Qyburn, she just needs to figure something out! And hey, she's worked something out, a trial by combat! Awwww, we don't get to see an awesome fight because the High Sparrow's a sneaky bastard! He's manipulated Cersei's dumb kid into stopping trial by combat! Can't you see that that'd fuck your mother over, kid? Anyway, we totally hate Tommen and the Tyrells for putting Cersei in this situation now, but Qyburn's got a confirmation. Some rumour's been confirmed, oooh, I'm hyped! Ehhhhh... I hate all this boring sitting in a room and talking shit, when is that gonna be over- oh, it's Cersei's trial! But Cersei's not coming! Oh, gay guy got cut, now I'm sad, but oh wait, the High Sparrow knows something's up, and sends Lancel to get her. But Lancel... uh... tries to be a hero 'cause he found a bomb by following a kid and there's an epic crawl and it's so close ut sorry, you're all blown up, and Cersei wins! Then she gets revenge on that evil fugly shame woman, while dumb kid walks out the window! YEAH! KILL YOURSELF KID, YOU WERE DUMB! And now Cersei's queen, fuck yeah, finally a badass is in charge. It doesn't matter if lots of stuff didn't make sense, 'cause FUCK YAS, QUEEN!

Somewhat intelligent person: Um... is it implying if you're reviled, slut-shamed, and have no claim to the throne, all you need to do is kill all the other claimants to the throne (or otherwise drive them to suicide) to become a well-liked leader? Because that very rarely works out in reality, it's why we have full-circle revolutions. Oh well, maybe they could discuss this next season. (inb4 Season 7 has Cersei as well-liked) I guess there's something in here about religion and politics, and how we should keep it out, but... maybe making us side with a person who blew up a bunch of people to prove that point isn't a good way to do it? Oh well, the contrivances were bad, but it's at least... trying to say something political? I think?

Intelligent person: Is the theme that trying to be a shrewd person who works via diplomacy, like Margaery, fails compared to more psychotic measures? Perhaps it shows that one shouldn't provoke an accused person to their breaking point, even if they legitimately did commit the crimes they're accused of? Those are both awful ideas. Or is it that people like Lancel, nobodies, could become heroes in a more fortunate world? Nah, D & D likely didn't think of that, silly me. Well, maybe it's a message to show that terrorism always trumps diplomacy? Or that feudalism is nothing more than might makes right, with mere lip service to familial succession?Once again, a nice thought, but probably not something  D & D intended. I mean, I guess it showed us that mutilating gays is wrong, that's something D & D likely intended, but we kinda knew that already. There's a few things that don't add up, and not enough substance to justify the contrivances.

I dunno, maybe these themes are enough to justify the contrivances even to a 'good writing' phase, but honestly, I can't think of a decent, honestly thought-provoking moment in the later seasons of GoT that would justify the contrivances that have to occur to make them happen and still make the piece count as good writing. It's merely writing to appeal to the ordinary man, the ones entertained by Love Island and the Only Way is Essex, while occasionally sprinkling in stuff for the smarter people that take an interest in politics. Meanwhile, D & D seem to actively hold people who view fiction as a vehicle for discussing raw ideas that could influence our society and how we view morality in contempt; hence 'themes are for Eight-grade book reports'.

Of course, it's fine to only appeal to ordinary folks most of the time. I just don't think they should be hailed as good writers worthy of having emmys thrown at them. The actors? Sure, throw them all the emmys, the actors on GoT tend to be on-point (with the exception of Sand Sneks), but D & D deserve no accolades for their writing. It's just serviceable stuff to make ordinary folk talk about their fictional people like they would a celebrity or a footballer.

Thats fair as far as it goes. A good argument well layed out. I do think Game of Thrones does have some very interesting themes and ideas. I wrote several posts over the last two days detailing some of them. Of course, those are ideas that really come from the novels but they are present in the show and the writers should be given some credit for incorporating them.

There is thematic depth there. Of all the critics who cover the show, Alyssa Rosenberg of the Washington Post does the best job of detailing themes in her reviews. Additionally, Screen Prism has a series of videos that explore each of the themes and symbols represented by the different families. Its a good TV show.

But of course it does not compare to  the bredth and depth of a novel. The show certainly will prioritize getting through the plot and ensuring it gets to where it needs to go sometimes at the expense of theme. To craft something like the brilliance of the northern plot from ADWD is beyond the scope of the show and really the medium unless you wanted to dedicate a whole season just to that.

But I give it the benefit of the doubt because I think the medium itself is somewat limited, given the economy of the medium it does a pretty good jon in my view and being able to enjoy these characters i love on a visual/ audio medium is very enjoyable to me. And perhaps most importantly, I am getting an ending. At this point I just want to know what happens to these characters.

Regarding the ideas of the King’s Landing plot, I think there where some interesting ones but nothing orginal or groundbreaking or anything that hadn’t not been covered else where. Obviously you had the idea of the danger of hubris as represented by the High Sparrow himself. You had an exploration of true human evil and how situations can sometimes bring it out. Cersei as Olenna calls her was the worst and they cornered her and... well they paid the price. But also Cersei paid the price for being willing to go their through the death of her son. Additionally the idea that is recurrent in both the books and shows that sometimes their are forces at work beyond you. No matter how good or skilled you are events can overwhelm you as what happened to margery who was one of the best at what she did yet still met a horrible fate. Life is not a morality play. 

 

[Beardy the Wildling]

7 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Thats fair as far as it goes. A good argument well layed out. I do think Game of Thrones does have some very interesting themes and ideas. I wrote several posts over the last two days detailing some of them. Of course, those are ideas that really come from the novels but they are present in the show and the writers should be given some credit for incorporating them.

There is thematic depth there. Of all the critics who cover the show, Alyssa Rosenberg of the Washington Post does the best job of detailing themes in her reviews. Additionally, Screen Prism has a series of videos that explore each of the themes and symbols represented by the different families. Its a good TV show.

But of course it does not compare to  the bredth and depth of a novel. The show certainly will prioritize getting through the plot and ensuring it gets to where it needs to go sometimes at the expense of theme. To craft something like the brilliance of the northern plot from ADWD is beyond the scope of the show and really the medium unless you wanted to dedicate a whole season just to that.

But I give it the benefit of the doubt because I think the medium itself is somewat limited, given the economy of the medium it does a pretty good jon in my view and being able to enjoy these characters i love on a visual/ audio medium is very enjoyable to me. And perhaps most importantly, I am getting an ending. At this point I just want to know what happens to these characters.

Regarding the ideas of the King’s Landing plot, I think there where some interesting ones but nothing orginal or groundbreaking or anything that hadn’t not been covered else where. Obviously you had the idea of the danger of hubris as represented by the High Sparrow himself. You had an exploration of true human evil and how situations can sometimes bring it out. Cersei as Olenna calls her was the worst and they cornered her and... well they paid the price. But also Cersei paid the price for being willing to go their through the death of her son. Additionally the idea that is recurrent in both the books and shows that sometimes their are forces at work beyond you. No matter how good or skilled you are events can overwhelm you as what happened to margery who was one of the best at what she did yet still met a horrible fate. Life is not a morality play. 

 

Yeah, I suppose there are ideas brought up by the S6 Cersei plot, just nothing groundbreaking. As I said, I actually rather liked the core plot, it flowed from beginning to end. It's the side stuff that felt superfluous, though you have a good point about Marg possibly being there as a 'tried so hard, and got so far, in the end, it didn't even matter' sort of thing. Once again, not a groundbreaking idea, but I can see why someone would consider it enough to justify the amount of screentime that was devoted to the doomed High Grandpa and Maggy scenes.

My main gripe are the people that consider D & D to be flawless and invent complex justifications for the shit that they obviously didn't think about; I'm in the same camp with regards to Preston Jacobs and his invention of complex justification for what in many cases are just mistakes by GRRM. While I deem GRRM more worthy of critical acclaim than D & D, I never rule out bad writing as a possible cause for inconsistency on his part.

If you can enjoy the bare-bones surface level character drama and don't want to spend your entertainment time thinking about politics and ideas, all well and good. Just don't act like you're watching the world's most faithfully-adapted Charles Bukowski book when you're doing it, you know?

[falcotron]

42 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

My main gripe are the people that consider D & D to be flawless and invent complex justifications for the shit that they obviously didn't think about

In most of these cases, there's a dead-simple explanation: D&D thought things through, decided that the only easy way for their plot and/or character arcs to work is if someone acts a bit stupid or out-of-character, and just had the stupid or out-of-character thing happen off-screen.

When that happens, most viewers have no problem with it, and don't even notice is. But the hardcore fandom seems unable to accept it. Half of the fans invent an explanation that sort of works with the characters but only by completely misinterpreting everything we saw, because they want to believe the show is deeper than it is. The other half invent an explanation that actually makes no sense at all, just because so they can criticize it for not making sense. Both groups are being stupid. The casual viewers are usually right.

[Beardy the Wildling]

10 minutes ago, falcotron said:

In most of these cases, there's a dead-simple explanation: D&D thought things through, decided that the only easy way for their plot and/or character arcs to work is if someone acts a bit stupid or out-of-character, and just had the stupid or out-of-character thing happen off-screen.

When that happens, most viewers have no problem with it, and don't even notice is. But the hardcore fandom seems unable to accept it. Half of the fans invent an explanation that sort of works with the characters but only by completely misinterpreting everything we saw, because they want to believe the show is deeper than it is. The other half invent an explanation that actually makes no sense at all, just because so they can criticize it for not making sense. Both groups are being stupid. The casual viewers are usually right.

Stories are supposed to be thought about, at least in the literary sense, to some degree. It was how humanity relayed information and ideas once upon a time, why even in non-literate societies oral tradition continues for generations and generations. It's a troubling time when the correct thing to do regarding a story is to simply not think about it, but I have to admit you hit home pretty squarely. While I get pretty energised ranting and raving, the most correct response seems to be to assume that TV writers assume their work has no literary merit and that viewers won't think about it but still buy their merch when it comes out.

[falcotron]

39 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

Stories are supposed to be thought about, at least in the literary sense, to some degree. It was how humanity relayed information and ideas once upon a time, why even in non-literate societies oral tradition continues for generations and generations. It's a troubling time when the correct thing to do regarding a story is to simply not think about it, but I have to admit you hit home pretty squarely. While I get pretty energised ranting and raving, the most correct response seems to be to assume that TV writers assume their work has no literary merit and that viewers won't think about it but still buy their merch when it comes out.

I think you're missing the point. Or, more likely, I didn't make the point very well. Either that, or you're really overstating the case.

It's not that you're not supposed to think about the story. It's that you're supposed to think about the things the author considers important. (And yes, I realize the irony in saying this about a series that was, in part, inspired by GRRM reading LotR and thinking about what Aragorn's tax policy was…)

The big issue is with characters' internal conflicts and motivations. You are supposed to pay attention to these for Cersei, because she's a character, but you're not supposed to for Vargo Hoat, because he's just a plot device. And if background characters do stupid or out-of-character or randomly lucky things, nobody notices or cares as long as it's off-screen or off-page.

But there are a lot of characters that are real characters in the novels, but not on the show. And for non-characters who appeared in the first four-ish seasons, where much of their dialogue is lifted straight from the books where they are characters, that can get pretty misleading even if you've never read the novels. (And D&D didn't do themselves any favors by hastily converting the Sand Snakes into real characters without giving themselves time to write them as such…) 

But I don't think most casual viewers have a problem identifying which people they're supposed to think about and which ones they aren't. They know, say, Yohn Royce is there for Sansa's story, not for a Yohn Royce story. It's only the hardcore fans who think otherwise. Then, even though they have no problem accepting that they're not supposed to think about Vargo Hoat, they don't realize that they're not supposed to think about Royce. And they respond by trying to headcanon Royce into being a real character. If they succeed, they end up with a perfect show in their heads that's almost, but not quite, entirely unlike GoT. If they fail, they complain that GoT is badly written. But they're both wrong, and the casual fans have it right.

Obviously, even within the range of stuff you are supposed to think about, D&D do sometimes screw up. And more often than GRRM does. But it's really not endemic to the show. Nor is it endemic to modern storytelling in general. That's an overreaction, and I think it's most commonly caused by watching the show for the wrong things.

 

[Megorova]

On 21.09.2017 at 7:52 PM, Beardy the Wildling said:

Even the Vikings had artists, architects, smiths and other professions than 'ship builders and reavers'. No society is just a 'people of hats'. This is a gross oversimplification of how societies work. Hell, in Viking society, women's battle was on the birthing bed, and dying in chilbirth got women into Valhalla, not their works of war. Women could also be renowned as prophets and seers, and the Ironborn have their equivalent in the Drowned Men (hell, if Aeron's in the show, and you're willing to assume an offscreen formation of the 'black guard', then the Drowned Men exist in the show universe). What about them? Are they all talented shipwrights, even though they only build with driftwood?

The fact you're now relying on making D & D's worldbuilding worse by making the Ironborn a monotonous horde of never-resting ship-builders and reavers is kind of sad, honestly. Just take jcmontea's explanation, it was surprisingly plausible: Euron didn't build 1000 ships, he just built a lesser, but still large amount. Because D & D have been ham-fistedly making Euron an obvious analogue to Donald Trump.

C'mon man, even I'm trying to help you out here.

Ironborn ARE a monotonous horde of never-resting ship-builders and reavers. Or more like they are never-resting sailors/marines/fishermen/pirates/raiders, and when needed they build and repair their boats and ships. And it's needed often, because their islands are located in stormy and rocky region. So even when their vessels are moored in ports and docks, they are still occasionally getting damaged by hostile natural environment.

Even Drowned Men mostly live at the sea, and take active part in raids.

"The ironborn are a seafaring people, and some do not like to be far from the sea. The Drowned Priests of the ironborn likewise seldom stray far from the sea."

And why do you think that they only build with driftwood? Just because they make their "holy weapons" out of driftwood? Which doesn't mean that they also build ships out of driftwood. 

"Drowned men are priests of the Drowned God in the Iron Islands".

"His priests are the Drowned Men, who are clothed and armed by the sea itself."

"Traditionally, they arm and clothe themselves only with what the sea washes ashore."

"The drowned men wear roughspun robes of mottled green, grey, and blue, the colors of the Drowned God. They carry driftwood cudgels to show their devotion in battle, and skins of saltwater to perform ritual anointment as well as to sate their thirst .

"Priests of the Drowned God bless new ships, speaking invocations and pouring sea water over prows."

"In the A Song of Ice and Fire novels, the Drowned Men carry cudgels of driftwood. They are forbidden from shedding the blood of other ironborn, but this restriction is taken quite literally: they are still permitted to bludgeon enemies to death with driftwood clubs. It is also quite praiseworthy to drown an offending ironborn, as a sacrifice to the Drowned God." <- That's funny

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Drowned_Men

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Drowned_men

 

And I will help you by giving links to info:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Ironborn

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Iron_Islands

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Ironborn

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Iron_Islands

Or read spoiler in my previous post, I copypasted there info about ironborn way of life, culture, and occupations.

 

"The Iron Islands are small and rocky, swept by fierce storm winds, with poor soil and hardly any natural resources. The few poor crop fields that are present have their rocky soil plowed by thralls, men captured in raids and forced into servitude, as they usually cannot afford draft animals. While located at roughly the same latitude as the Eyrie in the Vale or the Twins in the Riverlands, the harsh storm winds that howl through the islands make them fairly cold. It is no wonder that in this precarious position, the inhabitants came to rely on the bounty of the sea, and ultimately raiding the mainland."

Thralls are captives imprisoned during raids. Ironborn use them to do nearly all work that isn't related to sealife. They catch fish, they make nets, they work as blacksmiths and shipwrights. But even their houses are mostly build by their thralls. Thralls work in fields and mines, thralls serve in hoseholds of ironborn lords.

 

And artists, ironborn? Really?  

"Illiteracy is common among the ironborn, perhaps because they believe physical force is enough to obtain what they want, and do not bother to produce anything of their own, as the motto of House Greyjoy implies. When Theon arrives at Moat Cailin, he urges the ironborn to read the message from Ramsay, although he is almost certain that none of them can read. Rodrik Harlaw (Balon's brother-in-law) is known as "the Reader" for his passion for books, which is regarded by most ironborn as somewhat strange, as they consider reading to be an unmanly habit (though Rodrik is actually a strong warrior, he just thinks history books are interesting)."

They do have singers/musicians/composers, as Theon said:

"War was an ironman's proper trade. The Drowned God had made them to reave and rape, to carve out kingdoms and write their names in fire and blood and song."

There's even book about their legends and the preachings of the Drowned men, that is called "Songs the Drowned Men Sing". Though the book itself was compiled by maester in Citadel, and not by ironborn. Also their songs are created by sailors and fishers. They don't have such professions as bards. They use thralls to serve, and they don't bother to produce anything themselves. Art included. They even think, that the person that likes to read, is a weirdo (Rodrick Harlaw), so they wouldn't bother themselves with creation of art.

 

Furthermore, prior starting debates with me, whether it was possible or impossible for Euron to build 1,000 ships in a span of 6 months, you shoul have done at least a bit of research about who ironborn are, how they live, and what they do.

 

Nearly all of them are experiences shipwrights. Which will become obvious to you, if you will bother with reading info about them, provided in this Wikia.

People that currently populate Iron Islands already have experience of building 1,200 ships and boats, even before Euron's coronation.

Their Islands are called Iron Islands because they have rich iron ore. Their mine on Harlaw island is one of the richest iron mines in Westeros. They also have lead and tin mines. Lordsport of Pyke is the largest town of Iron Islands, is known for its forges and metalworkers, who produce excellent swords, axes, ringmail, and plate. They also have there timber and wattle keep. <- All this info is from ASOIAF Wikia.

They wouldn't even need to sail elsewhere to build new shipyards, or to get supplies. They already have on site, everything what is needed to build 1,000 ships, even without leaving Iron Islands archipellago. And if they will have a deficite in anything, they will just have to go on a raid.

Furthermore, in the last book of ASOIAF, that's exactly what Euron did, after his coronation. He sent his people on a raid to Shield Islands, seized them, and advanced by Manderly river to attack unguarded Reach. After that battle he took 38 ships off their fleet.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Taking_of_the_Shields

"Euron admits he does not intend to hold the Shields. Attacking them opened the Mander to their raiding ships."

Book-Euron raided westcoast of Westeros to seize more ships for his fleet. So it wouldn't be problematic for GOT-Euron to raid the coast for gathering supplies, needed to complete his fleet.

He has people (1,5 million workers), all needed resources (or can get them thru raids), experience, motivation and dedication of his people (which is also very important), and 6 months of time.

 

If you will further continue this argument about possibility/imposibility of Euron's accomplishment, I ask you to at least provide some verificational/informative sources of your statements, because reasons "I think that that is so and so, just because I think so" doesn't cut it.

[jcmontea]

4 hours ago, falcotron said:

I think you're missing the point. Or, more likely, I didn't make the point very well. Either that, or you're really overstating the case.

It's not that you're not supposed to think about the story. It's that you're supposed to think about the things the author considers important. (And yes, I realize the irony in saying this about a series that was, in part, inspired by GRRM reading LotR and thinking about what Aragorn's tax policy was…)

The big issue is with characters' internal conflicts and motivations. You are supposed to pay attention to these for Cersei, because she's a character, but you're not supposed to for Vargo Hoat, because he's just a plot device. And if background characters do stupid or out-of-character or randomly lucky things, nobody notices or cares as long as it's off-screen or off-page.

But there are a lot of characters that are real characters in the novels, but not on the show. And for non-characters who appeared in the first four-ish seasons, where much of their dialogue is lifted straight from the books where they are characters, that can get pretty misleading even if you've never read the novels. (And D&D didn't do themselves any favors by hastily converting the Sand Snakes into real characters without giving themselves time to write them as such…) 

But I don't think most casual viewers have a problem identifying which people they're supposed to think about and which ones they aren't. They know, say, Yohn Royce is there for Sansa's story, not for a Yohn Royce story. It's only the hardcore fans who think otherwise. Then, even though they have no problem accepting that they're not supposed to think about Vargo Hoat, they don't realize that they're not supposed to think about Royce. And they respond by trying to headcanon Royce into being a real character. If they succeed, they end up with a perfect show in their heads that's almost, but not quite, entirely unlike GoT. If they fail, they complain that GoT is badly written. But they're both wrong, and the casual fans have it right.

Obviously, even within the range of stuff you are supposed to think about, D&D do sometimes screw up. And more often than GRRM does. But it's really not endemic to the show. Nor is it endemic to modern storytelling in general. That's an overreaction, and I think it's most commonly caused by watching the show for the wrong things.

 

Agreed

[Megorova]

On 21.09.2017 at 11:57 PM, jcmontea said:

again. your assuming they didn't like Joffrey. But as the show showed in season 3 when they cheered him and Margery when they walked out of the Sept not sure that assumption holds. 

They liked Margaery. Because from the moment she arrived to KL, she pretended that she cares about smallfolk. And when it was announced about her engagement with Joffrey, and when Joffrey to impress Margaery also pretended that he cares about his people (he also did something for inhabitants of KL, though I don't remember what exactly), they started to like him by extension from their love towards Margaery.

On 22.09.2017 at 0:04 AM, darmody said:

If that's true, why did Tywin retreat to Casterly Rock after Aerys wouldn't marry Cersei to his son and appointed Jaime to the Kingsguard?

Why did Tywin sit out the rebellion until it was clear Robert's side would win, then sack King's Landing only to turn the throne over to Robert?

Because their relationship was deteriorating more and more, with each passing year, since Tywin's marriage with Johanna Lannister. Read Tywin's and Aerys' pages in this Wikia, they give a good summary about their relationship in books, and they also nicely explain why Tywin did what he did, and why he gave Iron Throne to Robert (even though it was his son who slayed the King, it was his troops that sacked KL).

On 22.09.2017 at 0:14 AM, darmody said:

Food isn't a problem for King's Landing this season, I suppose, though winter has arrived and a dragon burned much of the supply being brought in from Highgarden.

Nearly all carts/wagons allready passed city gates. Jaime and Bronn were in the tail of troops procession. By the point when Dany arrived, Jaime already received back message from Red Keep, that gold safely arrived to Cersei.

On 22.09.2017 at 0:18 AM, Beardy the Wildling said:

because the real reason for the wight hunt and UnViserion happening is obviously for the spectacle-ridden falling of the wall

And what will you be saying if the same thing will happen in the book? What if GRRM will break The Wall, in the same manner it happened in GOT, even though reading a scene in a book is not a spectacle? If the book will follow the same path, it will mean that D&D made NK to break The Wall, in this manner not for the sake of spectacle.  

On 22.09.2017 at 0:34 AM, SirArthur said:

Because the show only uses 3 assets ?

No. The same info was also in books. Majority of their ships are of those 3 kinds, though they also have others. Though mostly it's special ships like Yara's (because her ship is a flagship of her small personal fleet (30 or something longships)).

The following are my assumptions:

Ironborn build ships typical for their fleet, people of Arbour build different kind of ships. KL's Royal fleet, Great Master's fleet, Iron Bank fleet, etc.

All of them build their ships in their local shipyards, from their local materials, or use their regular suppliers.

Thus what kind of ships they can build/usually build is determined by their needs; and limited by sizes, conditions, resources, available manpower of their shipyards, and skills of their shipwrights.

Ironborn has several basic needs for which they use certain types of ships:

1. mass fishing (with big nets in open sea, additionally they need large storage space for captured fish) - longships with 60 oars,

2. smaller longships for fast close range raiding (or transportation of small number of people) - longships with 20 oars,

3. basic longships of Iron Fleet (for long distance travels, for mass raids, for transportation of troops or big/heavy cargo) - longships with 100+ oars.

Considering that in Iron Islands they don't have lots of fertile soils, also they mostly live of sea and not of land, they don't grow much produce, they don't even have many domestic animals (they even have to use separate islands for sheep grazing) <- based on all of that, seems that their main food is fish and other seafood. And to feed 1,5 million people they need lots and lots of fish. So it's likely that only boat fishing near shores, wouldn't be enough to supply their entire population with food, thus they need to use longships, for mass fishing in open sea. So it seems logical that to feed entire population, they use bigger 60 oars longships, while for small individual raids they use smaller longships with 20 oars.

On 22.09.2017 at 0:34 AM, SirArthur said:

Because ships weren't build for a large time under industrial conditions there are no two ships that are the same. Even the blueprinted classes like the french 74 ended in different states. And before that there weren't even blueprints.   

Nevertheless there's still were certain standards. No way around it. With blueprints, or not.

Ironborn have limited resources, available to them on their islands, so they are supplying themselves mostly with goods stolen in raids. The only thing that they do have enough is iron, fish, rocks, and salt. They already exhausted their forests on Harlaw island, during  the dynasty of House Hoare, and it's their second largest island. So probably when they build their ships they use whatever materials available. They build from different kinds of wood. They use different materials to make their sails. Probably lots of boards and fabric they steal while raiding other naval populations. So their ships are build from mismatched materials.

Thus to compensate for this structural flaw, they need to adhere to clearly defined standards while building specific type of ship. So when they are building 60 oars longships, for all of them they stick with the same length, width, tonnage, control system, exterior elements and interior filling <- that way all ships of the same kind will have same speed, same level of maneuverability, same capabilities, and will be operated identically as other ships of the same kind. That way crew of certain type of ship won't need to re-adapt, in case if their ship will be ruined, and they will have to switch to another. Also they will be able to arrive en masse to appointed destination. That's probably the key point, why they have to build ships of the same type, that are alike.

Otherwise, just imagine, what kind of circus it will be, if parts of their fleet will be arriving to place of intended raid, like loooooong stretched caravan, instead of consolidated armada.

[Megorova]

On 22.09.2017 at 2:05 AM, darmody said:

The flashback was clearly meant to show the original creation of White Walkers by the Children, and the guy they used ended up being the Night King. Their invention backfired

Yes to this part. But 'no' to what is next.

Quote

What possible purpose could there have been to creating White Walkers all over again 50 years ago? When the Children already knew how dangerous they are to Children, and they weren't actively at war with men anymore.

What if first original NK wasn't created by Children?

<- I got this idea based on info from the books (though no need to point to me that WW in books and show are totally different things, I know it myself).

There was no indication in legends, about first Long Night 8000 years ago, that Children had anything to do with creation of WW, or even that they had any sort of connection to WW. Also there was an old story about female White Walker that seduced Lord of Nights Watch and made him make human sacrifies, and both of them were offed by Lord of Winterfell.

What if WWs of first Long Night actually weren't humans? Or first NK was human, but he acquired thru some sort of dark magic his 'winter' abilities? What if he performed on himself the ritual, in which he has put piece of dragonglass in his own heart? Or someone else did this to him? <- either way Children had nothing to do with first NK and WW. Just a theory.

After first Long Night ended, eventually there was more and more humans, and they were harming nature, cutting down trees, and forcing Children to leave their settlments and go further away from humans. Then 50 years ago they had enough. Thus they created current NK. They didn't knew what he will be capable of.

Quote

And why was the ground un-winterfied?

http://i.imgur.com/ibG84Lp.png <- this is atlas of Planetos, as you can see there, The Land of Always Winter connects to upper part of Westeros, and to upper part of far east Essos. Connection to Essos is on the same line as The Neck and The Flint Cliffs in Westeros <- that is the southern border of The North. Which means that in The Land of Always Winter that is located above its connection to Essos, there are the same weather as in southern part of The North. And when it isn't winter in The North, there's no snow in there. Which means that it's possible that that scene with ritual happend in The Land of Always Winter, above connection to Essos. Or in Essos in Grey Waste, or Shadow Lands. And current NK forced Children to retreat nearly thru entire lenght of planet, until they reached The Wall, and then its magic stopped him.

On 22.09.2017 at 2:05 AM, darmody said:

I was under the impression the White Walker creation ceremony we're shown was at the same tree at which Bran studied under the Raven guy. Even if it wasn't, what were Children doing south of the Wall 50 years ago, and how did the Night King get to the other side of the Wall?

Raven's tree is way bigger. And the tree from ritual wasn't growing on a hill, and there was no cave undernear it. I was sure that it was totally different tree. Even though if that scene took place thousands years ago, and that tree could've grown over time to the size of Raven's tree from the present.

Either they were above Essos, and lower than The North in Westeros. Or who knows what is really there way up north? Maybe there's no winter. It may look unlikely, though no one ever went too far in there to know what is there. So anything's possible.

On 22.09.2017 at 2:05 AM, darmody said:

Nevermind all that. Why would the show trick us into believing we were being shown the original creation, when in fact we weren't? What would be the point? The showrunners are nasty people in your imagination. 

This is what was shown:

1. in some unknown location,

2. in unknown time,

3. Children performen some sort of ritual with dragonglass,

4. on unknown man,

5. and that man turned into Night's King that we know (saw him at Hardhome, when his army attacked wildlings in the present). 

 

Do you see the point? -> what was shown didn't indicated in any way whether that was original creation, or not original creation. The show didn't tricked us. And what people believed in, could fairly possibly have nothing to do with what actually happened. And of what happened we know a very limited info -> only those 5 elements.

P.S. Also it was shown that the Child who pierced the man in ritual, is Leaf from Raven's cave.

If that scene happened thousands years ago, and that guy was original first NK, and he was defeated and chased away 8000 years ago, and at least 15 years ago he came back to The Wall, then WHY did Leaf and other Children waited those 15+ years and didn't asked help from humans?

P.P.S. 3ER said to Bran that he was there for hundreds years, not thousands. Who was Raven before him? How did Children get him to join them?

So all this situation between Children, WWs, NK and 3ER seems fishy.

[falcotron]

5 minutes ago, Megorova said:

What if first original NK wasn't created by Children?

But we saw Leaf creating him from a bronze-age warrior type. Leaf explains that they were at war and their sacred trees were being cut down, which didn't happen 50 years ago. The Inside the Episode says that it confirms that Leaf is 8000 years old.

5 minutes ago, Megorova said:

After first Long Night ended, eventually there was more and more humans, and they were harming nature, cutting down trees, and forcing Children to leave their settlments and go further away from humans. Then 50 years ago they had enough. Thus they created current NK. They didn't knew what he will be capable of.

Even if they hadn't created the original one, the fact that they're 8000 years old, and can see through time anyway—and would presumably have had to either remember it or look at it through time in order to learn the magic so they could reproduce it—means they'd be pretty stupid not to know what he would be capable of.

5 minutes ago, Megorova said:

http://i.imgur.com/ibG84Lp.png <- this is atlas of Planetos,

That was invented by an anonymous fan on DeviantArt, who says everything beyond the official maps is his "own personal work". And it's not even accurate within the areas that aren't invented.

On the official maps, Mossovy is nowhere near that far north, and you can see there's just ocean above it, not an arctic continent coming down to the latitude of Winterfell.

Also, GRRM has repeatedly said that Essos and Westeros are not connected, only Westeros is connected to the far North, etc. See this SSM for one example.

You're trying way too hard to ignore what the show is explicitly telling us. Leaf and her group created the Night King 8000 years ago.

[jcmontea]

3 minutes ago, falcotron said:

But we saw Leaf creating him from a bronze-age warrior type. Leaf explains that they were at war and their sacred trees were being cut down, which didn't happen 50 years ago. The Inside the Episode says that it confirms that Leaf is 8000 years old.

Even if they hadn't created the original one, the fact that they're 8000 years old, and can see through time anyway—and would presumably have had to either remember it or look at it through time in order to learn the magic so they could reproduce it—means they'd be pretty stupid not to know what he would be capable of.

That was invented by an anonymous fan on DeviantArt, who says everything beyond the official maps is his "own personal work". And it's not even accurate within the areas that aren't invented.

On the official maps, Mossovy is nowhere near that far north, and you can see there's just ocean above it, not an arctic continent coming down to the latitude of Winterfell.

Also, GRRM has repeatedly said that Essos and Westeros are not connected, only Westeros is connected to the far North, etc. See this SSM for one example.

You're trying way too hard to ignore what the show is explicitly telling us. Leaf and her group created the Night King 8000 years ago.

 I think there is between a 0 and 1% chance that the Night King is not ancient. Not sure there is any evidence to suggest otherwise. 

[Beardy the Wildling]

At this point I think it's safe to say Megorova is the pro-show version of Preston Jacobs, lul.

That's not even a compliment or an insult (I occasionally like some of his theories), it's just a simple, easy way to describe such a pathology.

[SirArthur]

11 hours ago, Megorova said:

Otherwise, just imagine, what kind of circus it will be, if parts of their fleet will be arriving to place of intended raid, like loooooong stretched caravan, instead of consolidated armada.

Oh no. They can't regulate speed. 

[Megorova]

On 22.09.2017 at 3:17 AM, Jabul said:

Aegon had a full court? And Daenerys Targaryen is currently living in an empty castle? I honestly don't know what your point is here. Do you have one? We read in The World of Ice and Fire:

"Aegon made no reply. Instead he summoned his friends, bannermen, and principal allies to attend him on Dragonstone. Their numbers were small."

This was just before the invasion. We also read that the original invasion force was small. It is extremely likely that Dany has more support in Westeros than Aegon did. She most definitely has a larger army. What does it mean then to say "They had a full court there. People loyal to them"?

Dany is not alone, and Dany did risk riding her dragon into battle.

Targaryen family moved from Valyria, and build Dragonstone castle, 300 years before Aegon's conquest. They were dynasty of royalties, with long history of ruling, and they had courtiers. They didn't moved to Dragonstone island, with just king father, queen mother, and their children. They moved there together with their entire court - "ministers", government officials, advisors, bannermen, knights, freilins/ladys in waiting, servants, maids, soldiers, workers, etc. They had educated and experienced people in their government. They had government.

Also Aegon, in case of his death, had three more people who were able to succeed him - his two sisters, and bastard half-brother Baratheon.

But Dany has no court (retinue, noble entourage, royal suite), her court consists of Dothraki barbarians, eunuch soldiers, one dwarf, and one interpreter. She has no Kingdom, no government, no court/courtiers, no Small Council, no bannermen, no land, no nation (population of 7K is NOT Queen Dany's nation), no real subjects. Currently her Kingdom exists only in her imagination. It's her vision, not yet a reality. If she will die, for those of people close to her, it will be the end of everything. No more Kingdom.

Currently in her court there's only dwarf Tyrion and eunuch Varys. And others are not much of a courtiers - Missandei is just a translator/ interpreter (she isn't fitted to be a ruler, she doesn't have enough education, experience, or knowledge about how kingdom should be operated, how to manage it's economy, politics, etc.), Grey Worm is just a soldier (in case if Dany will die now, even the Dothraki horde won't serve him. Why should they?), furthermore he's castrated.

Varys and Grey Worm is out of the picture, as possible heirs.

Dany has no successor, and the problem isn't in the fact that she hasn't chosen him/her yet, the problem is that there's no one from who she can chose. There's no even a single candidat. If Dany will die, Tyrion as Queen's Hand, maybe can replace her. But would the Dothraki submit to foreign dwarf? Dany at least was khal's wife. Not to mention that to them, she is more like a goddess, than just a ruler. But if she will be gone, they won't worship Tyrion just because he was her Hand.

Once she did went into battle (against humans), and as result of it, her dragon was wounded, and she nearly crashed. She can't use the same tactics, that were used by Aegon and his family - the manner in which Aegon acquired Riverlands, and his sister got the Vale. People of those two kingdoms didn't attacked dragonrider when he/she got of the dragon. Because there was no point, there were two more other dragonriders. Even if they weren't there, at that precise moment, it doesn't matter, because if locals will kill him/her, then the other two will come with their dragons, and kill everyone. Imagine what will happen, if Dany will be killed in a battle, or during negotiation with people, that she wanted to get on her side. Without her guidance, those dragons are just a big flying lighters. They don't know politics, they don't know who is who, they won't be able to kill all people that plotted/planned Dany's death. They won't be looking for them to get their revenge, they will just randomly burn whoever will be present on site of Dany's death, and after that they will just fly back to live in Valyria.

No Dany = The End of Dream Kingdom.  

Quote

The best explanation is the one that I have offered: a very large plot hole. The show runners arranged for the dragon queen and her team to suffer massive unexplained brain damage in the off season. 

Lets wait and see whether book Dany will call out to lords of 7K, when she will arrive to Westeros. Then it will became obvious, whether this was a plot hole made by D&D, or it was originally intended by GRRM as Dany's actions.

[Megorova]

On 22.09.2017 at 8:10 AM, MinscS2 said:

If this was true, then all elves would start to get sick during the events of LotR.

Non of them, except Arwen, didn't gave away their life force to someone else. She shared her "life" with Frodo.

I'll try to explain with this example:

imagine that you and your friends have cars with full fuel tanks.

(you/driver is a soul, car is a body, gasoline is a life force).

fuel tank of your friend got drained by gasoline thieves.

so you gave sizable amount of fuel from your tank to your friend.

but unfortunately for you, shortly after that, the Middle-earth production of gasoline stopped, all gas stations shut down, mineral oil extraction stopped. no more fuel anywhere. (Only Undying Lands were protected from pollution).

so you can't get a refill.

your car is more powerful (because you're an elf), but it also uses much more fuel, than car of your lucky friend (because he's a hobbit), to whom you helped. and also your car uses fuel of much better quality and purity. so with your fuel, your friend's car will drive long after your own car will shut down.

 

Elves get their refills from nature. They are powerful creatures that live for thousands of years, and they can perform strong magic. Though there's a price for it - they are very closely tied with nature. So if nature is polluted by evil magic, and elves can't get a refill, then they use up all of their stored energy, and after that they die. Hobbits aren't very different from humans. They aren't as closely dependant on nature as elves, so even when world became polluted, hobbits haven't felt any difference. They don't get their energy from nature. Their bodies are autonomous energy producers. But when Frodo was wounded by that sword, his body lost all of its inner energy, and his 'engine' was shutting off. Arwen sealed damage, and refilled him with her own energy. After that his engine began working again, and self production of energy was restarted.

Other elves were going to sail away from Middle-earth, not because they weren't going to fight against orks, but because their energy levels were getting low. If they stayed behind like Arwen did, eventually all of them also would've used up all of their energy, shortly prior that became mortal, and then died. So they were going to sail to the Undying Lands, that are also blessed, free from evil.

[Jabul]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

1. Targaryen family moved from Valyria, and build Dragonstone castle, 300 years before Aegon's conquest. They were dynasty of royalties, with long history of ruling, and they had courtiers. They didn't moved to Dragonstone island, with just king father, queen mother, and their children. They moved there together with their entire court - "ministers", government officials, advisors, bannermen, knights, freilins/ladys in waiting, servants, maids, soldiers, workers, etc. They had educated and experienced people in their government. They had government.

Also Aegon, in case of his death, had three more people who were able to succeed him - his two sisters, and bastard half-brother Baratheon.

2. But Dany has no court (retinue, noble entourage, royal suite), her court consists of Dothraki barbarians, eunuch soldiers, one dwarf, and one interpreter. She has no Kingdom, no government, no court/courtiers, no Small Council, no bannermen, no land, no nation (population of 7K is NOT Queen Dany's nation), no real subjects. Currently her Kingdom exists only in her imagination. It's her vision, not yet a reality. If she will die, for those of people close to her, it will be the end of everything. No more Kingdom.

3. Currently in her court there's only dwarf Tyrion and eunuch Varys. And others are not much of a courtiers - Missandei is just a translator/ interpreter (she isn't fitted to be a ruler, she doesn't have enough education, experience, or knowledge about how kingdom should be operated, how to manage it's economy, politics, etc.), Grey Worm is just a soldier (in case if Dany will die now, even the Dothraki horde won't serve him. Why should they?), furthermore he's castrated.

Varys and Grey Worm is out of the picture, as possible heirs.

Dany has no successor, and the problem isn't in the fact that she hasn't chosen him/her yet, the problem is that there's no one from who she can chose. There's no even a single candidat. If Dany will die, Tyrion as Queen's Hand, maybe can replace her. But would the Dothraki submit to foreign dwarf? Dany at least was khal's wife. Not to mention that to them, she is more like a goddess, than just a ruler. But if she will be gone, they won't worship Tyrion just because he was her Hand.

4. Once she did went into battle (against humans), and as result of it, her dragon was wounded, and she nearly crashed. She can't use the same tactics, that were used by Aegon and his family - the manner in which Aegon acquired Riverlands, and his sister got the Vale. People of those two kingdoms didn't attacked dragonrider when he/she got of the dragon. Because there was no point, there were two more other dragonriders. Even if they weren't there, at that precise moment, it doesn't matter, because if locals will kill him/her, then the other two will come with their dragons, and kill everyone. Imagine what will happen, if Dany will be killed in a battle, or during negotiation with people, that she wanted to get on her side. Without her guidance, those dragons are just a big flying lighters. They don't know politics, they don't know who is who, they won't be able to kill all people that plotted/planned Dany's death. They won't be looking for them to get their revenge, they will just randomly burn whoever will be present on site of Dany's death, and after that they will just fly back to live in Valyria.

No Dany = The End of Dream Kingdom.  

5. Lets wait and see whether book Dany will call out to lords of 7K, when she will arrive to Westeros. Then it will became obvious, whether this was a plot hole made by D&D, or it was originally intended by GRRM as Dany's actions.

Basically, your post is an exercise in deck stacking. 

1.Daenerys was the ruler of Meereen. She is a Targaryen. She and her people have the experience of ruling. Why would the. people of the 7K, aristocrats or commoners, care that the dragon queen hasn't been on the island for 300 years, or that she has a deficit of ministers, ladies in waiting, etc.?

It is quite obvious that she does have educated people advising her. Tyrion is one example, Missandei is another. She gains the loyalty of Jon Snow. She forms an alliance with Dorne and with the Reach. Later, there are "problems" with the latter two kingdoms. The supposed "problems," however, are about as unconvincing as anything in Season 7. The entire leadership of Dorne comes to Dragonstone for no particular reason. Why wouldn't they leave at least one person at home to organize their forces for the coming war? Who was in charge? Perhaps Random Peasant 147? If so, then why can't Random Peasant 147 still keep running things after Euron's surprise attack?  Even more to the point, why don't the formerly intelligent Targaryen people try to communicate further with Dorne? The kingdom has suffered what--10 or 12 casualties maximum? And its is out of the war? Baloney. 

2. The main thing here is that the dragon queen clearly does have a government, even if it is not as large and long lasting as you seem to require. You provide no evidence that size and longevity of a government would be matters of importance for anyone in the Seven Kingdoms.

The so-called "queen" in KL has not received a pledge of fealty from anyone currently ruling any of the kingdoms. She has destroyed important institutions (not just, say, a single pope, but the papacy and the Vatican). To say that she has a Small Council is to stretch things beyond the breaking point. She is supposed to gain legitimacy from the fact her husband and sons were monarchs. However, she does not even call herself a Baratheon. Any reasonable person residing in the 7K would, at the very least, say that Borg Queen Brotherfucker has no more claim to the throne than does the young woman with the dragons. Also, it appears that the Borg queen will die without an heir. She claims to be pregnant. it's not certain that this is true. Even if true, it has only been stated in private. Essentially no one outside the Red Keep could presently use this info to decide between Dany & Cersei. 

3. This is where the deck stacking truly stands out. Varys is a eunuch. You don't mention the fact that he was a member of Robert's Small Council. You also don't mention Barristan Selmy. He gave Daenerys advice, and I don't see why we should think she simply forgot all of it. Furthermore, the Small Council previously noted that Dany was advised by two capable military men, Barristan Selmy and Jorah Mormont. The Mother of Dragons had the backing of one of the most respected knights of the Kingsguard. This fact was acknowledged at a time when one of the princes of Dorne was on the council. It is perfectly reasonable to think that it is a known fact in at least parts of the 7K. Even if not well known, it could and should be advertised by half-way-intelligent Targaryen forces. 

You want to switch back and forth between the book and the TV show, using such switches only to your advantage. For example, you want to label Missandei as just a translator. She was more than that in the books. In #5 (See below), however, you want to judge whether or not D&D are guilty of plot holes by seeing what GRRM does later in the books. 

Even in the show, Missandei is more than a translator/interpreter, and Grey Worm is more than a soldier. The two of them argue strongly against Tyrion's policy of reaching an accommodation with the slavers. The two of them turn out to be right in their judgement. 

4. There is no reason at all to presume that people in the Riverlands will be against Daenerys Targaryen. There is every reason for her to hope that she can rally the families of the victims of the Red Wedding to her side. Or, there would be every reason for this if the show runners would let the Targaryen forces act reasonably. As for the Vale, the leadership there now backs Jon, and Jon backs Daenerys. 

Dany shows poor judgement in her decision not to name an heir. However, this may not be a critical failing. As I noted earlier, it looks like we have another dragon rider in waiting. Actually, the fellow now known as Jon Snow won't be just an heir of Daenerys. He'll be number one in the line of succession. 

5. At best, this would mean that GRRM was as guilty of the plot hole as D&D were. The failure of a potential ruler and her advisers to communicate with the subjects of the realm is an absurd mistake. These people were smart for six seasons. Now they are idiots. This is poor writing, whether done by a novelist, a screen writer, or anybody else. 

[MinscS2]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Non of them, except Arwen, didn't gave away their life force to someone else. She shared her "life" with Frodo.

OK, now you're just making stuff up...

[jcmontea]

1 minute ago, MinscS2 said:

OK, now you're just making stuff up...

Now?

[Megorova]

On 23.09.2017 at 3:04 AM, Beardy the Wildling said:

Qyburn killing Pycelle so he... couldn't attend the trial where he'd die anyway,

They separated Pycelle and septa Unella, from everyone else, because Cersei was especially angered by them, she hated them more than her other enemies. Septa Unella for humiliating and torturing her. And Pycelle for daring to get between Cersei and her son. And she didn't treated her uncle Kevan in the same manner, even though he also was getting between Cersei and Tommen, because he is a family, so he was given a bit of condescention, for the sake of old times and shared blood.

She wanted all of her enemies dead, but for those two, before they will die, she wanted to cause them maximum amount of pain, fear and suffering. In case with those two, she wouldn't have been satisfied if they just died. Quick and easy death for them isn't what she wanted. Where's the satisfaction in that? 

And Cersei didn't gave any special treatment to Margaery, because she wanted to prove to herself, that Margaery isn't someone special. For some short amount of time, she managed to get into their family, and steal Cersei's son from her, but now - no more of that. That's a typical, post divorce behaviour, of a jealous mother in law, which thinks that there's no any woman good enough for her son. So Cersei just offed Margaery with everyone else, because for her, she was insignificant.

On 23.09.2017 at 3:04 AM, Beardy the Wildling said:

Margaery was up to something, something that she hijacked even her father and grandmother on, despite the fact that with the Tyrell Army there, there was no readily evident reason for her to stick to the piety plan. Tommen and Margaery were apparently in awe of the High Sparrow enough to los their adjuectives.

Margaery wasn't in awe of High Sparrow. She only pretended that she's repenting. Same as Cersei before her, Margaery realised that Tommen won't/can't/isn't able to help her. He's a weakling, manipulated by others. So she realised that to get out of that situation, and to save her dear Loras, she needs to play-pretend, that she is humble, compliant, and devouted to the Faith of the Seven believer.

As for 'no readily evident reason' part - THEY STILL HAD HER BROTHER AS THEIR HOSTAGE. Is that reason not enough to stay cautious around High Sparrow and his fanatics?

She planned to free her brother, and only then to unleash upon Sparrows combined wrath of Tyrells army and Kingsguards. It was possible for her to finally make Tommen do something. She was the only person who was capable of turning Pussycat Tommen into Lion King Tommen. She was the only one for whom he was able to finally act like a man, and like a King.

Spoiler

S5E7:

"CERSEI: Starving yourself won't make things any better for her, my love.

TOMMEN: She’s in a prison cell and there’s nothing I can do. I am the king! The queen is in prison and there’s nothing I can do!

Tommen walks to the window. Cersei joins him.

CERSEI: No matter who you are, no matter how strong you are, sooner or later, you'll face circumstances beyond your control. Events you couldn't possibly have anticipated or prevented even if you had. You cannot blame yourself for fate. Your father, your brother, your grandfather-- I was Queen of the Seven Kingdoms and what could I do? Hold them as they left this world. Kissed their heads after they'd gone.

TOMMEN: I’ll call in the army. I’ll take back the sept and kill every last one of them. I’ll start a war if I have to.

CERSEI: You know as well as I do who the first casualty in that war would be.

TOMMEN: I love her. I love her. I can’t help her.

CERSEI: We must be strong for those we love. We cannot give in to despair.

TOMMEN: I will speak to the high sparrow. There must be something--

CERSEI: Let me speak to him on your behalf. The king cannot dirty sully himself negotiating with an unwashed fanatic."

 

The point of what Cersei was saying, was to convince Tommen to do nothing. At that time Cersei was very satisfied with how everything turned out, so she wasn't letting Tommen to spoil everything.

 

S6E2:

"TOMMEN: When the Faith Militant seized her and Margaery, what did I do? When they paraded her through the streets like a whore, what did I do?

JAIME: We all fail sometimes.

TOMMEN: The king is supposed to be the Protector of the Realm. If I can’t even protect my own wife or my own mother, what good am I?

~~~

TOMMEN: I know I should have come sooner. I wanted to. I was wrong.

CERSEI: It’s all right.

TOMMEN: No, it isn’t.

CERSEI turns to face TOMMEN.

TOMMEN: I should have executed all of them. I should have pulled down the sept onto the High Sparrow’s head before I let them do that to you, as you would have for me. You raised me to be strong...and I wasn’t. But I want to be. Help me."

He was getting there. With right motivation he was capable to eventually go against High Sparrow. Especially if his motivator was his dear Margaery.

But the thing is, is that as long as her brother wasn't safe, she was going to lie and mislead everyone, Tommen included.

The only exception was her grandmother, to whom she gave a hint about her real intentions. She passed to her a drawing of a rose, and the meaning of that message is the same as Tyrell's sigil and motto - "GROWING STRONG". Thru this message she let her grandmother to know, that she didn't gave up, and that she isn't brainless hypnotized religious fanatic. That she haven't forgotten about her family. And that she's pretending to be in cohorts with Sparrows, to be able to save her brother. She's doing this for the future of Tyrells, because they NEED Loras.

Spoiler

"MARGAERY: Listen to me. You need to stay strong.

LORAS: I can’t stay strong. I never was strong.

MARGAERY: You are strong. You are the future of our house, the future of our family.

LORAS: I don’t care about that.

MARGAERY: Shh. Have you -- have you told them that? That you don’t care?

LORAS: I just want it to stop. Help me.

MARGAERY: They want me to help you. They want me to help tear you down. That’s why he’s letting me see you, I know it is. And if either of us give in to what they want, then they win.

LORAS: Let them win. Just make it stop. Please.

LORAS begins sobbing. MARGAERY embraces him.

MARGAERY: All right."

She pretended that she gave up, to get out of there and when she will be free, to help Loras. Though when she met Tommen for the first time after their separation, it wasn't yet safe to act against Sparrows. So she pacified Tommen, convinced him that everything's fine. But also she made a bit of exploring to see where Tommen stands.

Spoiler

"TOMMEN: Have they hurt you? Have they mistreated you?

MARGAERY: No, Your Grace.

TOMMEN: I’ve missed you. More than you could know.

MARGAERY: We’ll be together again soon and everything will be better than it was before.

TOMMEN: Better how? Soon the- - walk of atonement. He says there’s no other way.

MARGAERY: Have you spoken to him at all, the High Sparrow?

TOMMEN: Yes, a few times. Have you?

MARGAERY: Yes, I have. He’s not quite what we thought he was, is he?

TOMMEN scrunches up his face. MARGAERY chuckles and turns away.

MARGAERY: You think I’m mad. I sound mad.

TOMMEN: No. No, you don’t. You- - you could never. You’re right, he’s not. He’s a lot more- -

MARGAERY: He is.

~~~

TOMMEN: What about Loras?

MARGAERY: I love my brother. I will always love my brother. His soul is pure and perfect. His sins don’t erase that purity, they only obscure it. He just needs to atone for them. We all do. Sooner or later, one way or another. The gods have a plan for us all."

And Margaery also had a plan. Though we will never know what it was. Probably getting Loras out, and then either forcing Tommen to kill all Sparrows, or getting for this task help of Tyrells' troops. Or she was going to get Loras, and together with him and their father, under escort of Tyrells' troops, to escape home to Highgarden. And be damn both Cersei and Tommen.

[Jabul]

On 9/23/2017 at 7:59 AM, falcotron said:

I think you're missing the point. Or, more likely, I didn't make the point very well. Either that, or you're really overstating the case.

It's not that you're not supposed to think about the story. It's that you're supposed to think about the things the author considers important...

The big issue is with characters' internal conflicts and motivations. You are supposed to pay attention to these for Cersei, because she's a character, but you're not supposed to for Vargo Hoat, because he's just a plot device. And if background characters do stupid or out-of-character or randomly lucky things, nobody notices or cares as long as it's off-screen or off-page.

...

But I don't think most casual viewers have a problem identifying which people they're supposed to think about and which ones they aren't. They know, say, Yohn Royce is there for Sansa's story, not for a Yohn Royce story. It's only the hardcore fans who think otherwise...t.

Obviously, even within the range of stuff you are supposed to think about, D&D do sometimes screw up. And more often than GRRM does. But it's really not endemic to the show. Nor is it endemic to modern storytelling in general. That's an overreaction, and I think it's most commonly caused by watching the show for the wrong things.

 

You raise some interesting issues. I'll just comment briefly.

I think it is too simple to classify characters as people you're supposed to think about and people you're not supposed to think about. Also, the entire essence of fiction is not just characterization. Other things are important. One very important matter in fantasy and science fiction is world building. I believe that discussion of these issues merits a separate thread. We have drifted from the main point of this one. 

Speaking of drifting from the main point, that matter merits a separate post.