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Tyrion1991

(Spoilers) - The War makes no sense

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Near as I can tell, Cersei has pulled off an impossible victory. She has convinced the Lords of Westeros to side with her and accept a Lannister Queen. Admitted her incestuous relationship with Jamie. Has managed to get people to forgive and forget her murdering the High Septon and huge numbers of the Nobility. To forget about her public walk of shame. Yet when all was said and done, Dany needed Cersei to agree to help her. Which makes very clear that the Lannister faction was not only still relevant but powerful enough to matter. Basically everything has gone her way.

 

In particular I didn't like that Danys only victory has no lasting consequences. You would be forgiven for thinking most of the Lannister army was destroyed and all of its grain which was explicitly mentioned as being vital to continue the war. They mentioned that the Lords were only following her because they (stupidly) believed a big ballista could kill a dragon and forgot she had three of them. So you would expect food riots, the army to starve and all the other nastiness. Especially since what Cersei has done should make her an extremely unpopular Queen. Instead, nothing comes of this battle. Cersei simply gets the plot gift of a big stack of cash to buy the Golden Company. Plus, she loses Casterly Rock and this is somehow depicted as a victory. Really the psychological blow of losing Casterly Rock would destroy House Lannister. I would shouldn't Kings Landing starve during winter if all the grain was destroyed?

 

Also the actions of the Iron Bank do not make sense. They are risking Dany destroying the city of Braavos and seem to be opposing her because she freed the slaves; which contradicts the citys lore directly. Braavos opposes slavery. 

The show does keep telling us that Danys dragons and Dothraki are a threat. But nothing ever comes of this. People do not abandon Cersei because of this. The victories Dany gets don't hurt Cersei in any significant or real way. Dany does not take any territory apart from one castle which she abandons. 

 

Plus, the entire plot has hinged upon people randomly being unwilling to just kill Cersei. Examples being Arya abandoning her quest to kill Cersei and Dany being talked out of burning down the Red Keep. Yet in both cases the showrunners wax lyrical about how evil it would be to do this, which is laughable considering how evil Cersei is and that none of these would involve taking innocent lives. If Tolkein had given Frodo a good dragon he would not have depicted it as dodgy to burn down Barad Dur. 

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Near as I can tell, Cersei has pulled off an impossible victory. She has convinced the Lords of Westeros to side with her and accept a Lannister Queen. Admitted her incestuous relationship with Jamie. Has managed to get people to forgive and forget her murdering the High Septon and huge numbers of the Nobility. To forget about her public walk of shame. Yet when all was said and done, Dany needed Cersei to agree to help her. Which makes very clear that the Lannister faction was not only still relevant but powerful enough to matter. Basically everything has gone her way.

 

In particular I didn't like that Danys only victory has no lasting consequences. You would be forgiven for thinking most of the Lannister army was destroyed and all of its grain which was explicitly mentioned as being vital to continue the war. They mentioned that the Lords were only following her because they (stupidly) believed a big ballista could kill a dragon and forgot she had three of them. So you would expect food riots, the army to starve and all the other nastiness. Especially since what Cersei has done should make her an extremely unpopular Queen. Instead, nothing comes of this battle. Cersei simply gets the plot gift of a big stack of cash to buy the Golden Company. Plus, she loses Casterly Rock and this is somehow depicted as a victory. Really the psychological blow of losing Casterly Rock would destroy House Lannister. I would shouldn't Kings Landing starve during winter if all the grain was destroyed?

 

Also the actions of the Iron Bank do not make sense. They are risking Dany destroying the city of Braavos and seem to be opposing her because she freed the slaves; which contradicts the citys lore directly. Braavos opposes slavery. 

The show does keep telling us that Danys dragons and Dothraki are a threat. But nothing ever comes of this. People do not abandon Cersei because of this. The victories Dany gets don't hurt Cersei in any significant or real way. Dany does not take any territory apart from one castle which she abandons. 

 

Plus, the entire plot has hinged upon people randomly being unwilling to just kill Cersei. Examples being Arya abandoning her quest to kill Cersei and Dany being talked out of burning down the Red Keep. Yet in both cases the showrunners wax lyrical about how evil it would be to do this, which is laughable considering how evil Cersei is and that none of these would involve taking innocent lives. If Tolkein had given Frodo a good dragon he would not have depicted it as dodgy to burn down Barad Dur. 

 

 

 

They did a very poor job of explaining the strategic context behind the war. A piss poor job. 

As best as I could tell the logic is the following: 

episode 1: Cersei just controls the Westerlands and two regions under direct crown control the Stormlands and at best the Riverlands. Why haven't those regions and lords abandoned her? The only real explanation given is fear of Cersei and xenophobia towards Daenerys and fear that she is some crazy anti aristocratic revolutionary

episode 2: Cersei uses xenophobia and fear about how Daenerys treats the high born to effectively take back the Reach when the Tyrell banner man defect (they mention everyone will follow Tarley). Then with the Enron ambush Dorne is taken off the map as they are left leaderless. 

Episode 3: Cersei consolidates control of the Reach by taking out Highgarden but loses Casterly Rock and potentially the Westerlands if the unsullied can solidify their beachhead which given the current pieces on the board they can't 

Episode 4: Daenerys destroys the Lannister army not in the Riverlands/ Stormlands and effectively takes back the Reach and makes control of the Westerlands possible. The path to victory is now open as they can strangle King's Langing. However, this would take a while since they don't want to risk burning the city. 

Episode 5: Daenerys does not want to abandon the position she achieved with her most recent victory and is unwilling to go north without an armistice that freezes the conflict in the South. This is problematic since if the army of the dead is truly marching on eastwatch as Bran suggests, they don't have time to resolve the South before the war in the North starts. 

Episode 6: Daenerys recognizes that the North is more important than the South 

Episode 7: Daenerys abandons her position in the South thinking she had an armistance in place and that with Cersei's armies heading north Cersei would be unable to reassert control of the Reach and the Westerlands 

of course, not sure that makes an incredible amount of sense but that is what they give us. We basically have to believe that:

- lords and financial institutions see Dany as ushering in both the communist revolution and importing massive amounts of foreign immigrants and they hate that enough that they are willing to get bbq'ed like Tarly 

- most lords and houses don't matter for some reason 

i found it very frustrating as my expectation was Cersei's reign was going to collapse this season. 

 

 

 

Edited by jcmontea

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As they say in the professional wrestling biz, every strong babyface needs an even stronger heel.  The show needed Cersei this season far more than the plot did.  I know the Night King is built up and very strong, but with no speaking lines he's just not that versatile in how he can impact the story.  Cersei was needed as a good counterpoint to everything Dany and Jon were trying to accomplish. But this is an invention of the TV show as we know GRRM likes gray characters, but season 7 seemed to promote black and white characters the most. The dividing line between good and evil is more prevalent than ever and that's exactly what GRRM didn't want of this story.

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15 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Plus, the entire plot has hinged upon people randomly being unwilling to just kill Cersei. Examples being Arya abandoning her quest to kill Cersei and Dany being talked out of burning down the Red Keep. Yet in both cases the showrunners wax lyrical about how evil it would be to do this, which is laughable considering how evil Cersei is and that none of these would involve taking innocent lives. If Tolkein had given Frodo a good dragon he would not have depicted it as dodgy to burn down Barad Dur.

 

Arya's goals are like Ghost's: Waiting like a good dog in Winterfell until master Jon comes back from his human friends and feeds and pets them. No need to follow Jon around.

And how can you expect showrunners to even understand the principles of Westeros politics after Dorne ?

Principles like:

- Dragonstone controls the sea access to King's Landing ( the point why Stannis went there in the first place). But who gives a fuck about an island with 3 dragons that are perfect for scouting the area and burning ships anyway. It's not like KL is in a bay and you may need time to get with a fleet out of a bay.

- House Tyrell is intermarried within the Reach with Hightower and Redwyne. Unlike Lannister they have powerful marriage alliances. Nitpicking here would be mentioning the Redwyne fleet but since now all nitpicking is evil and nerdy, let's not talk about it. But how about Olenna fleeing to the Anchor ? Sounds like a plan. No ? It's not like castles have to be sieged or something and can hold out for years.

- Ignoring house Higtower:  The faith and it's connections to Hightower. Anyone ? The citadel and Hightower. But wait there is more. Jorah Mormont was married to a Hightower. Why would we have any scene between a Hightower and Jorah ? Not mentioning the tower of joy and the Hightower there.  And on top if that the show makes a big issue about the power of Cercei because she has the biggest city in the 7K. Guess who has the second biggest. All speak after me: Hightower. And who studies prophecies in his tower ? Yeah, who gives a fuck about plot anyway. Let's complain about those nerdy fans complaining about supersonic ravens.

- Ignoring the possibility to be cut off and overexpanding an army. No, Jaime can do this. It is even more funny if you realize that Dany only had to block or burn the bridges over the Blackwater. I mean rivers are still a thing is Westeros warfare ? The Twins were a thing and the Trident was a thing.

- Ignoring any logical move from any army at all. Like the Dorne army positioning itself within the dornish marches. In the books House Martell has two armys there, one at each pass. Forget the books. It can't be that hard to receive a raven and then make a logical position between the own territory and King's Landing. Mindblowing and sick military move to position a dornish army against the location from where the enemy comes. This army could have intercepted the Lannister army on its way back to KL. If you understand that Horn Hill (House Tarly) is in striking distance from the dornish march army from day 1 on, then this Tarly plot gets even more ridiculous. The great general Tarly left his own seat wide open for a dornish Invasion. What a genius. Give this man a medal. I understand Dany there: why would you want an idiot of that proportion as your ally ?

 

-> So this Tarlys plan did not only need for Highgarden to fall fast, it also needed no Tyrell alliances in the Reach, no Dorne in the war, no Dany burning bridges, no reaction from Dany, the knowledge of all positions of Dany's armys, no reaction from anyone, no fleeing from Olenna and on top of this a fleet that can ignore the strategic position of Dragonstone and a fleet that can destroy Dany's fleet to prevent her from landing troops anywhere.  And it failed because Dany decided to use one Dragon. Guess nobody told Dany that she had to loose.

So question: The gold is in KL. But wouldn't the Iron bank have to ship it out home ? I know crazy thought but even then Dany could have reacted against the Iron Bank for plundering in the Reach. I guess not all the loot transfered to Bravoos were gold coins with the face of Cercei on it. I know it is hard to inspect ships coming out of KL when you have a dragon and a base.

 

And I could rant an hour more. But let's nitpick about some stupid raven while ignoring complete seasons we had before this. FUN.

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1 hour ago, jcmontea said:

I found it very frustrating as my expectation was Cersei's reign was going to collapse this season. 

Aye, same. At the end of season 6 when we saw Daenerys army compared to Cerseis, it looked like Cerseis reign would collapse on itself within 2 episodes, tops.

I hate it when people blame the writing when something strange happens, since usually there's at least a glimmer of logic behind what's happening, and/or it can be explained somehow, but...I can't really find any logic in how Cersei managed to stay on the throne for more than a whole season / a whole year so far, other than "the writing demanded that she does, so we have a human villain left in the last season."
Euron teleporting around with his fleet, somehow finding and taking out key elements (the Martells, the Greyjoys) and Tyrion essentially betraying Daenerys by giving her shitty advice most of the season so she won't kill members of his family, the family he previously hated (except for Jamie) are all examples of how logic is thrown out the window so Cersei can sit on the throne for a little while longer so the show can keep us in "suspense".
By this stage, the common people should hate her and rebel against her, there should be food riots and religious riots and most of the westerosi lords and houses should despise her and refuse to take up arms against her enemies, possibly even join Daenerys cause against her, but nope, Cersei just sits comfortably on her throne, everyone in Kings Landing are content, all the while she's being remarkably omnipotent about everything that's happening in Westeros. 

I guess I'm a bit partial as well. Imo Cersei was an intriguing villain I could relate somewhat to...until the blew up the Sept and everyone in it. 
After that she became a cliche chaotic evil bad guy who intimidates and kills everyone who oppose her, without anyone seemingly caring one bit.
She doesn't even play the game anymore, she essentially just a crazy bloodthirsty tyrant at this stage.

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It would have been very easy to let Cercei flee with all the values left in KL to Casterly Rock and have Dany to deal with ALL the problems in KL. She would need 2 seasons just to solve all the issues with KL, th Faith, her Dothraki who wants to plunder and loot and so on.

Dany has to win the war fast because attrition will destroy her and Cercei needs attrition to preserve her remaining troops. The entire plot almost writes itself.

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37 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Aye, same. At the end of season 6 when we saw Daenerys army compared to Cerseis, it looked like Cerseis reign would collapse on itself within 2 episodes, tops.

I hate it when people blame the writing when something strange happens, since usually there's at least a glimmer of logic behind what's happening, and/or it can be explained somehow, but...I can't really find any logic in how Cersei managed to stay on the throne for more than a whole season / a whole year so far, other than "the writing demanded that she does, so we have a human villain left in the last season."
Euron teleporting around with his fleet, somehow finding and taking out key elements (the Martells, the Greyjoys) and Tyrion essentially betraying Daenerys by giving her shitty advice most of the season so she won't kill members of his family, the family he previously hated (except for Jamie) are all examples of how logic is thrown out the window so Cersei can sit on the throne for a little while longer so the show can keep us in "suspense".
By this stage, the common people should hate her and rebel against her, there should be food riots and religious riots and most of the westerosi lords and houses should despise her and refuse to take up arms against her enemies, possibly even join Daenerys cause against her, but nope, Cersei just sits comfortably on her throne, everyone in Kings Landing are content, all the while she's being remarkably omnipotent about everything that's happening in Westeros. 

I guess I'm a bit partial as well. Imo Cersei was an intriguing villain I could relate somewhat to...until the blew up the Sept and everyone in it. 
After that she became a cliche chaotic evil bad guy who intimidates and kills everyone who oppose her, without anyone seemingly caring one bit.
She doesn't even play the game anymore, she essentially just a crazy bloodthirsty tyrant at this stage.

Agreed. I do think that is how it will end. With literally everyone having turned on Cersei. Or at least it needs to. How can anyone support this latest betryal of the living.

i do think the idea of people reacting negatively to Dany is an interesting one given the Dothraki, her father and how she is def. not pro nobility. Hell, i think if we hadn't had Dany's point of view, she has all the trapings of an antagonist. 

But, the way it went down this year you could def see the hands of the writers woking to keep Cersei around versus it feeling like a natural ourgrowth of the story. Almost like a video game where the computer gets much more difficult to keep the game competitive. 

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3 hours ago, jcmontea said:

They did a very poor job of explaining the strategic context behind the war. A piss poor job. 

As best as I could tell the logic is the following: 

episode 1: Cersei just controls the Westerlands and two regions under direct crown control the Stormlands and at best the Riverlands. Why haven't those regions and lords abandoned her? The only real explanation given is fear of Cersei and xenophobia towards Daenerys and fear that she is some crazy anti aristocratic revolutionary

episode 2: Cersei uses xenophobia and fear about how Daenerys treats the high born to effectively take back the Reach when the Tyrell banner man defect (they mention everyone will follow Tarley). Then with the Enron ambush Dorne is taken off the map as they are left leaderless. 

Episode 3: Cersei consolidates control of the Reach by taking out Highgarden but loses Casterly Rock and potentially the Westerlands if the unsullied can solidify their beachhead which given the current pieces on the board they can't 

Episode 4: Daenerys destroys the Lannister army not in the Riverlands/ Stormlands and effectively takes back the Reach and makes control of the Westerlands possible. The path to victory is now open as they can strangle King's Langing. However, this would take a while since they don't want to risk burning the city. 

Episode 5: Daenerys does not want to abandon the position she achieved with her most recent victory and is unwilling to go north without an armistice that freezes the conflict in the South. This is problematic since if the army of the dead is truly marching on eastwatch as Bran suggests, they don't have time to resolve the South before the war in the North starts. 

Episode 6: Daenerys recognizes that the North is more important than the South 

Episode 7: Daenerys abandons her position in the South thinking she had an armistance in place and that with Cersei's armies heading north Cersei would be unable to reassert control of the Reach and the Westerlands 

of course, not sure that makes an incredible amount of sense but that is what they give us. We basically have to believe that:

- lords and financial institutions see Dany as ushering in both the communist revolution and importing massive amounts of foreign immigrants and they hate that enough that they are willing to get bbq'ed like Tarly 

- most lords and houses don't matter for some reason 

i found it very frustrating as my expectation was Cersei's reign was going to collapse this season. 

 

 

 

 

Theyre more afraid of Cersei than the woman with three dragons?

 

Its a bit difficult to believe such a universally negative opinion of dany would exist when most people in the other continent call her Mhysa and all but worship her as Goddess. In fact for the Lord of Light people; they do. Especially the common people. But even the Lords I find impossible to understand. The Mad King was nowhere near as bad Cersei. None of the targ Kings were as bad. Plus they are making sweeping assumptions about her bringing the Dothraki over. They should know she banned slavery.

I know i cant understand why the Westerlands, Riverlands and Stormlands haven't betrayed this maniac who has no claim to the throne and is going to get them all killed fighting dragons. Really, this is the perfect chance to get rid of Cersei and betray her. I mean she murdered Kevin Lannister. She murdered dozens of Lords across Westeros. She hanged the smallfolk in droves for petty offences. People didn't KNOW Joffrey was an evil incest child. But everybody knows what Cersei has done, what she is and they even saw the trial. 

 

I don't think there was any consequence to Danny's victory. They talk about moving this enormous Lannister army north so presumably most of it was intact.

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4 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Theyre more afraid of Cersei than the woman with three dragons?

 

Its a bit difficult to believe such a universally negative opinion of dany would exist when most people in the other continent call her Mhysa and all but worship her as Goddess. In fact for the Lord of Light people; they do. Especially the common people. But even the Lords I find impossible to understand. The Mad King was nowhere near as bad Cersei. None of the targ Kings were as bad. Plus they are making sweeping assumptions about her bringing the Dothraki over. They should know she banned slavery.

I know i cant understand why the Westerlands, Riverlands and Stormlands haven't betrayed this maniac who has no claim to the throne and is going to get them all killed fighting dragons. Really, this is the perfect chance to get rid of Cersei and betray her. I mean she murdered Kevin Lannister. She murdered dozens of Lords across Westeros. She hanged the smallfolk in droves for petty offences. People didn't KNOW Joffrey was an evil incest child. But everybody knows what Cersei has done, what she is and they even saw the trial. 

 

I don't think there was any consequence to Danny's victory. They talk about moving this enormous Lannister army north so presumably most of it was intact.

I agree. Given the points of view the audience is exposed to over 7 seasons, its hard to see why people would choose Cersei. I get the whole better the devil u know idea but still.

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28 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Theyre more afraid of Cersei than the woman with three dragons?

 

Its a bit difficult to believe such a universally negative opinion of dany would exist when most people in the other continent call her Mhysa and all but worship her as Goddess. In fact for the Lord of Light people; they do. Especially the common people. But even the Lords I find impossible to understand. The Mad King was nowhere near as bad Cersei. None of the targ Kings were as bad. Plus they are making sweeping assumptions about her bringing the Dothraki over. They should know she banned slavery.

I know i cant understand why the Westerlands, Riverlands and Stormlands haven't betrayed this maniac who has no claim to the throne and is going to get them all killed fighting dragons. Really, this is the perfect chance to get rid of Cersei and betray her. I mean she murdered Kevin Lannister. She murdered dozens of Lords across Westeros. She hanged the smallfolk in droves for petty offences. People didn't KNOW Joffrey was an evil incest child. But everybody knows what Cersei has done, what she is and they even saw the trial. 

 

I don't think there was any consequence to Danny's victory. They talk about moving this enormous Lannister army north so presumably most of it was intact.

I think the show is sort of caught between a rock and a hard place with this season being a pre-cursor to the final season.  Because of that, there is a bit of a holding pattern taking place and the show-runners absolutely need Cersei to stick around as a powerful villain and antagonist at least until the final few episodes, if not the final episode of the series.  That's because the Night King does not talk or emote and can't really be an interesting villain all by himself (maybe there will be a further twist in Season 8 to make him more interesting).

So yeah...basically this season because of those constraints, you had Dany and Cersei exchanging meaningless victories in an ill-defined war that mainly functioned as a way to write off Dorne, Highgarden, Tarly, and other side characters and their houses who weren't as important as the major ones.  

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6 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

So yeah...basically this season because of those constraints, you had Dany and Cersei exchanging meaningless victories in an ill-defined war that mainly functioned as a way to write off Dorne, Highgarden, Tarly, and other side characters and their houses who weren't as important as the major ones.  

This feels a lot like the end of Star Wars Episode III. Everyone has to be put into their Episode IV start position even when Leia remembers the face of her mother 1 or 2 episodes later.

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4 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

I think the show is sort of caught between a rock and a hard place with this season being a pre-cursor to the final season.  Because of that, there is a bit of a holding pattern taking place and the show-runners absolutely need Cersei to stick around as a powerful villain and antagonist at least until the final few episodes, if not the final episode of the series.  That's because the Night King does not talk or emote and can't really be an interesting villain all by himself (maybe there will be a further twist in Season 8 to make him more interesting).

So yeah...basically this season because of those constraints, you had Dany and Cersei exchanging meaningless victories in an ill-defined war that mainly functioned as a way to write off Dorne, Highgarden, Tarly, and other side characters and their houses who weren't as important as the major ones.  

 

They're in an even harder place now. Because they can't just turn around and start having things go bad for Cersei. If the Lords have followed her up to this point and their opinion of Dany is so toxic; a total 180 on those things would appear jarring. They know Cersei is evil. Her not sending her army to fight the Dead really shouldn't be the straw that breaks the camels back or "shock, horror, the Queens evil.". Nor should they suddenly think Dany would be a nice Queen because shes gone North. Dany has done nice things like free all the slaves; this isn't surprising. 

Basically if the Lannister Lords and people of Westeros are following her now, then these are clearly some very stupid people and nothing is going to convince them of that. Dany refusing to fight the Undead is bad, but murdering Kevin Lannister doesn't make the Western Lords and army drop her?

 

 

 

 

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Also, why on earth does Tyrion not want to kill Cersei?

Lets completely leave to one side the book character for a minute. Cersei is horrifically evil and is going to destroy House Lannister. She has murdered his good Uncle Kevin. Revealed that she murdered Robert Baratheon. Revealed that she had an incestuous relationship with her brother. Is risking destroying the army and the Rock by trying to take on a woman with three dragons. If he wants to save House Lannister he does it by killing Cersei. He does the right thing by killing Cersei. Right now, House Lannister's infamy should be so horrific and monstrous that it will take centuries to recover from it. Which is forgetting all the stuff Tywin and Jamie did. 

But instead of coming to this natural conclusion Tyrion is obsessed with the notion that the best way to deal with this problem is with a peace that spares Cersei's life. Why? This only prolongs the war. Burn the Red Keep down. Kill Cersei. All those people Dany killed at Casterly Rock and at the Blackwater died because Tyrion is trying to spare two people and talking Dany out of destroying Cersei or the idiots who enable Cersei.

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13 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

They're in an even harder place now. Because they can't just turn around and start having things go bad for Cersei. If the Lords have followed her up to this point and their opinion of Dany is so toxic; a total 180 on those things would appear jarring. They know Cersei is evil. Her not sending her army to fight the Dead really shouldn't be the straw that breaks the camels back or "shock, horror, the Queens evil.". Nor should they suddenly think Dany would be a nice Queen because shes gone North. Dany has done nice things like free all the slaves; this isn't surprising. 

Basically if the Lannister Lords and people of Westeros are following her now, then these are clearly some very stupid people and nothing is going to convince them of that. Dany refusing to fight the Undead is bad, but murdering Kevin Lannister doesn't make the Western Lords and army drop her?

 

 

 

 

I think they're in a much easier place now in that the time constraints are done- with only 6 episodes left they can kill off anyone and there is no more holding pattern.  Things will go bad for Cersei...eventually.  Possibly even as soon as Episode 1 of next season.  She will probably be the final villain and get killed off later in the season but things should definitely take a turn for the worse before then for Cersei.  I could definitely see, for example, Euron and/or the Golden Company betraying Cersei.

My honest guess is that the White Walkers and Night King will be dealt with by Episode 4 or 5 of the last season, with one of the final episodes involving Dany and/or Jon with Jaime in tow marching on King's Landing to set up Jaime killing Cersei.  

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Cersei will win this war because they love Lena Heady's resting bitch face. 

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14 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

I think they're in a much easier place now in that the time constraints are done- with only 6 episodes left they can kill off anyone and there is no more holding pattern.  Things will go bad for Cersei...eventually.  Possibly even as soon as Episode 1 of next season.  She will probably be the final villain and get killed off later in the season but things should definitely take a turn for the worse before then for Cersei.  I could definitely see, for example, Euron and/or the Golden Company betraying Cersei.

My honest guess is that the White Walkers and Night King will be dealt with by Episode 4 or 5 of the last season, with one of the final episodes involving Dany and/or Jon with Jaime in tow marching on King's Landing to set up Jaime killing Cersei.  

I agree. I think the Dany situation and hostility towards her resolves itself after the battle with the white walkers. She will go from the foreign conqueror with a horde of barbarians to the savior of humanity with a westerosi born and raised husband who also is the rightful heir.

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1 hour ago, jcmontea said:

I agree. I think the Dany situation and hostility towards her resolves itself after the battle with the white walkers. She will go from the foreign conqueror with a horde of barbarians to the savior of humanity with a westerosi born and raised husband who also is the rightful heir.

And who should spread the glorious achievements of Dany the conqueror of winter ? Hot Pie ? And why should anyone care if nobody cares about the Night's Watch ? Not even the White Walker survivors can spread the horror of fighting against a dragon army. Unless of course she brings back loot and plunder.

 

From a story point nothing has changed. They even established that nobody believes Jon. The only reason for it to work is because the watcher wants it to work.

Edited by SirArthur

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55 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

And who should spread the glorious achievements of Dany the conqueror of winter ? Hot Pie ? And why should anyone care if nobody cares about the Night's Watch ? Not even the White Walker survivors can spread the horror of fighting against a dragon army. Unless of course she brings back loot and plunder.

 

From a story point nothing has changed. They even established that nobody believes Jon. The only reason for it to work is because the watcher wants it to work.

Your asking questions that can easily be written around if they wanted to take the story in that direction. Perhaps the most easy way to solve that problem is through the maesters.

sam said if the maesters said the threat is real the lords and ladies of the realm would listen. 

Maesters from Karhold and Last Hearth could send ravens to the citadel saying the army of the dead is through the wall and the citadel finally does something to alert the realm.

perhaps that, plus maester crester (or whatever the WF maester is called) plus reports of white harbor being destroyed is enough evidence for the maesters

Edited by jcmontea

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That is probably the difference between teleporting armies who fight for the glory of mankind and Lannister support forces for the north stuck in the mud between the Twins and Moat Cailin. Depends how it is resolved. Not even Rohan teleports to Gondor, they need to muster the forces first. And that right there is my suspension of disbelief. There is enough time left for a complete Lord of the Rings. I just do not believe in it. I believe in the coming of memes and SHOCK TM.

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On 11.09.2017 at 1:31 AM, Tyrion1991 said:

she loses Casterly Rock and this is somehow depicted as a victory. Really the psychological blow of losing Casterly Rock would destroy House Lannister. I would shouldn't Kings Landing starve during winter if all the grain was destroyed?

Cersei took everything out of Casterly Rock. Now it's just a building. Without any resources it's useless. So Dany haven't gained anything by ambushing CR. Instead she lost her fleet, and was cut off from her army. Cersei took away all resources from Westerlands and Reach. Gold, grain, and everything else, including people that are still loyal to Iron Throne. Now Cersei has money to repay crown's debt to Iron Bank, and to buy 20,000 sellswords from Golden Company, enough grain to sustain King's Landing thru long winter (soldiers weren't destroying grain, they were gathering crops, they took away food from Reach and transported it to King's Landing. Reach/Highgarden will starve during winter.). And what she lost was just a few dozens of expendable soldiers, and an empty building. Of course it was a victory.

Also Cersei and Jaime were living in King's Landing since 283 AC, for over 17 years, all their children were born there, so Casterly Rock is not their home anymore, wasn't their home for many years. WHAT PSYCHOLOGICAL BLOW? Are you SERIOUS?

Edited by Megorova

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