Tyrion1991

(Spoilers) - The War makes no sense

655 posts in this topic

10 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

This. 100%. This is absolutely unavoidable and any attempt to do otherwise is justified only by the inability or laziness of the writers to describe Cersei placed in a different situation…

One might think that Lena Headey (or her impresario) is henceforth the showrunner…

How many people do you think work and live in the Red Keep day in and day out who could be considered innocent people? 

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3 hours ago, MrJay said:

So. I'm waiting on my steak to finish, and I am bored. So I am gonna go ahead and do a quick and dirty draft of how I would have done this conflict. The goal being to not interrupt suspension of disbelief, and still have roundabout the same results.

Begins: Dany lands on Dragonstone. Immediately begins preparing for a land invasion. Her advisers all coax her to it, but she doesn't want that. No civilian casualties if possible, starving them out will be the last resort. Someone suggests she just use dragon's to burn the Red Keep. She doesn't want to burn it down so she fights it. Varys suggests the tunnels.

Sir Twenty of House Goodmen heads into the tunnels. But Cersei (shockingly) is very wary of that place now. You see a "little bird" scamper and that is your first clue. Next thing you know Sir Twenty is ambushed in the darkness, and the Mountain is there as well. Cersei smiles as she hears the echoes of her enemies screams from another place in the castle.

 

So Dany is furious now. Enter Olenna. BE A DRAGON! Dany hops on Drogon and takes her kids to the Red Keep. She begins burning it, but it's rather strong so while it is damaged, it's still strong. Cersei's forces scramble and make a meager defense, but eventually Dany leaves since arrows can still kill her. She is on a high now and excited for her first real strike.

However, Cersei employs the Scorpion for next time. She dislikes some little upjump harlot coming to her home like that. This was much too close for comfort.

Meanwhile, Euron is now on deck. He cracks jokes about cocks and points out how the Red Keep looks like booty now. He says he can help. When Cersei asks about his fleet he informs her that only a fool captain would bring his entire fleet past an enemy with ships and dragons. No. They are close, and they can help.

Dany decides to split her forces (cause her advisers are not very good at war). She will take the Rock with her go to trick, though she is wary this time. She goes with her Unsullied to provide some air support. Olenna and co have left earlier already.

Enter the Euron: He allows Dany's unsullied to go unmolested. No way he is messing with dragons. However, his fleet is now hot on Yara's trail and it's now a sea chase. Unfortunately, Euron's ships are just plain better. Yara flexes her captain skills and eeks out all the speed she can, but her fleet is being overtaken. She decides to turn and fight. Enter badass sea battle scene.

Euron brings Cersei her prisoners. More cock jokes.

Dany Takes the Rock: It was easy, as she expected. Unfortunately, Jaime and Lord Tarly are not exactly restless commanders. With Jaime's impatience, and Tarly's wizdom, a plan was hatched to strike Highgarden while they were still organizing. The Reach forces arrive under a banner of loyalty, then quickly cut down defenders. Tarly mislikes this, but Jaime explains it was what his dad would have done.

Dany returns to Dragonstone to find that Highgarden is gone, The sandsnakes and Yara are captured, and she has some weird visitor guy. She is enraged and immediately goes off to attack the Red Keep once more. Cersei's Scorpion strikes Drogon and quickly ends the attack.

Dany returns wet, irate, and with a hurt pride. So when she meets Jon, she is in no mood to hear anything besides the sound of his cold knees bending. (This explains her desire to have him kneel to such an extent).

(Everything happens as normal)

Dany and Jon bond a bit and he is asking for help. She cannot. She is planning an attack on King's Landing, she has Unsullied already holding the Rock, and one of her dragon's is recovering. She is in no position to help fight another war.

As this goes on...scouts report that the Highgarden army is on the move. Dany unleashes the Dothraki as normal as well as her other two dragon's. The loot train is hauling ass as fast as the men can manage because no one feels comfortable in the open anymore. Then the attack happens, minus the scorpion. Jaime falls into the water..

Jaime emerges from water without any damned armor. Cause Bronn helped him remove it all before he drowned. Nuff said.

 

And that's all I got for now. Gonna go eat.

 

One more thing. This is just off the top of my head and I know it's not great. The point is to "fix" the story and make it all make sense like these are real people who are actually trying not to die vs following silly plot points. Feel free to tear it apart. It only makes me a better writer.

So your fix was to have Daenerys lose her cool and go burn the red keep and  kill a whole bunch of innoncent people because she got mad she lost twenty men? 

In contrast to how the show was written where even after losing all her westerosi allies and badly wanting to strike back and burn the red keep she is easily talked out of giving up her values and burning down a castle with all the innocent people who work in it? 

That is a huge change in who the character is.

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2 hours ago, jcmontea said:

How many people do you think work and live in the Red Keep day in and day out who could be considered innocent people? 

Define "innocent people". Anyway the dragons burning the Red Keep would kill less people than would a siege and would have a major psychologic impact.

When you attack a continent with 3 dragons and 100K dothrakis warriors casualties of war are inevitable.

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15 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

Define "innocent people". Anyway the dragons burning the Red Keep would kill less people than would a siege and would have a major psychologic impact.

When you attack a continent with 3 dragons and 100K dothrakis warriors casualties of war are inevitable.

Innocent would be non combatents. I would imagine a castle as big as the red king would have a very high number. 

Not sure if it would kill less people than a siege. Especially if they do a siege and they succed in getting the lords of westeros to switch sides which is what Tyrion says is needed in episode 2. But i do agree it would have a psychologic impact and would be the quickest way to kill cersei and end the war. 

My own view is that I can understand why dany as a character would not go this route. But i think they should have spent more time debating it to bring the audience along instead of just communicating the decision and that was that. 

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I am just going to point this out but Dany trying to fight a war without killing anyone but those who are explicitly soldiers is the main reason she was unable to do anything. Those who serve in the Red Keep are just as much her enemy as Cersie is. It is the only way she should see things until she actually sits the throne. 

If they actively continue to serve Cersie then they are throwing in their lot with Cersie. These are not innocent bystanders. So if they must be put to the sword then they must be put to the sword. She is a conqueror and she must do what a conqueror must. Everyone, even Eddard, would have did what needed to be done. 

Dany could have invaded the Keep through the tunnels while She and her dragons assualt the keep from the air. 

The fact that Varys does not bring up the tunnels is entirely because the writers did not want to use the same trick twi---i mean thrice. 

 

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5 hours ago, jcmontea said:

So your fix was to have Daenerys lose her cool and go burn the red keep and  kill a whole bunch of innoncent people because she got mad she lost twenty men? 

In contrast to how the show was written where even after losing all her westerosi allies and badly wanting to strike back and burn the red keep she is easily talked out of giving up her values and burning down a castle with all the innocent people who work in it? 

That is a huge change in who the character is.

Editing cause I swore not to get into a debate regarding Daeny ever again. I will talk if her regarding the overall story, but I will not discuss her character, or her as an individual. Just her in a "meta" type deal where I criticize the writers. No more. I refuse to deal with her fans anymore. 

So we can discuss the entire post, anotuer part, or whatever. But I'm not focusing on Daeny alone. 

Edited by MrJay

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1 hour ago, The Golden Wolf said:

I am just going to point this out but Dany trying to fight a war without killing anyone but those who are explicitly soldiers is the main reason she was unable to do anything. Those who serve in the Red Keep are just as much her enemy as Cersie is.

Exactly. Those people accept to serve a self-proclaimed queen, crowned by some creepy mad maester, who destroyed the seat of the "official" religion and burned alive hundreds of people including the reignant Queen and her family…

Imagine Robb Stark (not exactly a war criminal) in Dany's position (in Dragonstone, with dragons and a huge army): how long would have he hesitated before attacking?

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3 hours ago, MrJay said:

Editing cause I swore not to get into a debate regarding Daeny ever again. I will talk if her regarding the overall story, but I will not discuss her character, or her as an individual. Just her in a "meta" type deal where I criticize the writers. No more. I refuse to deal with her fans anymore. 

So we can discuss the entire post, anotuer part, or whatever. But I'm not focusing on Daeny alone. 

Lol. Ok.

but the point stands. If your going to rewrite the war you can’t fundamentally change the characters or destory their arcs. The war unfolds the way it does in part because characters make character driven decisions. That has to be reflected in whatever rewrite otherwise its pure bs. And that is also why its a false distinction. You can’t discuss just the war on a strategic level without discussing the characters because its the characters making those decisions and different characters would make different decisions.

Edited by jcmontea

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5 hours ago, The Golden Wolf said:

I am just going to point this out but Dany trying to fight a war without killing anyone but those who are explicitly soldiers is the main reason she was unable to do anything. Those who serve in the Red Keep are just as much her enemy as Cersie is. It is the only way she should see things until she actually sits the throne. 

If they actively continue to serve Cersie then they are throwing in their lot with Cersie. These are not innocent bystanders. So if they must be put to the sword then they must be put to the sword. She is a conqueror and she must do what a conqueror must. Everyone, even Eddard, would have did what needed to be done. 

Dany could have invaded the Keep through the tunnels while She and her dragons assualt the keep from the air. 

The fact that Varys does not bring up the tunnels is entirely because the writers did not want to use the same trick twi---i mean thrice. 

 

That is how you see it. But thats just not the character. Thats how you would prosecute the war.

also the idea that she didn’t do anything is not true. Absent the white walkers the war was going to be over. They were set up to establish their seige in 7x05. Cersei’s top comanders were ready to throw in the towel. 

3 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

Exactly. Those people accept to serve a self-proclaimed queen, crowned by some creepy mad maester, who destroyed the seat of the "official" religion and burned alive hundreds of people including the reignant Queen and her family…

Imagine Robb Stark (not exactly a war criminal) in Dany's position (in Dragonstone, with dragons and a huge army): how long would have he hesitated before attacking?

Margarey was not regnant queen. She was the consort queen. 

For all we know Robb would have gone the siege route as well. He seemend to bend over backwards in season 2 to be good and noble. 

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12 hours ago, MrJay said:

Serious question. Everyone here knows that the Red keep has a huge network of secret tunnels leading all over the place, and Varys has an intimate knowledge of a lot (but not all) of them?

Is it just me? Did I imagine this? I'm being serious here. Maybe I just got some things crossed in my head and there really are no tunnels leading in and out of King's Landing and into the Red Keep.

Actually there's not that many of them. And they are not as secret as you think. All those Birds are comming to Qyburn thru those tunnels. Probably Cersei is guarding those tunnels <- that's how she knew about Jaime's and Tyrion's meeting, and also knew that Bronn lead there Jaime without his consent <- with means that at that moment one of Birds was spying after them, in that tunnel. And when Bronn left, that Bird immediately run to Qyburn, and reported what was seen and heard. Thus when Jaime went to see Cersei, Qyburn was there with her, and he already told her everything. That's how she knew what Jaime wants to tell her.

Probably tunnels that lead into the city are gurded by City Watch. And tunnels that are elsewhere are gurded by Birds. When that Bird saw Jaime and Bronn in the tunnel, he/she just spyed after them. But if there were an invading troops, he/she would've run and reported about it. So while those invaders were still looking for a way out of tunnels, Cersei would've just used wildfire against them, and roasted them all.

Furthermore about invasion from sea side - one small boat was able to unseenely pass thru, though even the three of them were caught by guards in the end. So mass invasion with big fleet, is out of the question - impossible. Cersei would just use wildfire and catapultes against them.

12 hours ago, MrJay said:

This and the rest that follows makes no sense to me. I was throwing a bone and explaining how this convoluted mess could work, and now you are shooting those down too? What I was doing there is latching on to even the most flimsy of excuses for this bad plot, and even those you cannot accept, and yet you defend stuff like Daeny not being able to burn the Red Keep.

Obviously that she can burn it. But Tyrion is convinsing her not to. That's not a bad writing done by D&D, the reason for that is that Tyrion still doesn't want Jaime or Cersei to die. He wants to be accepted, and aknowleged by them. But if they will die, he won't have a family anymore, and he will never be forgiven by them. He still can't let go his family. Thus he's always discouraging Dany from any real action, and from using her dragons.

Tyrion is the greatest obstacle between Dany and Iron Throne.

Do you remember that promo video, where Dany comes to Iron Throne, and then she sees Tyrion sitting there? Maybe it's a foreshadowing of Dany's death, and that Tyrion will be Regent of little King/Queen, child of Dany and Jon.

But maybe that scene is a foreshadowing that Tyrion will prevent Dany from ever reaching Iron Throne.

12 hours ago, MrJay said:

Please do not get me started on Euron's magic fleet. That is an entirely separate point of absurdity right there.

How you gonna have a huge fleet of ships at the mouth of a port and you miss another huge fleet of ships not once but twice? And on top of that you have dragons that can easily be used as scouts. This magic fleet can sail undetected anywhere, and are faster than modern day vessels apparently.

Euron's fleet arrived to King's Landing days before Dany arrived to Westeros. So he didn't had to pass thru her entire fleet. She wasn't at Dragonstone yet, when he went to Cersei.

Next time when he passed by Dragonstone, nearly all ships from Dany's fleet were already away - sailing to Dorne to fetch there Dornish troops, and transporting Unsullied to Casterly Rock.

Dragonstone is located exactly in the middle of Blackwater Bay, to upper and lower coasts of King's Landing, there's exactly 54 miles on both sides. That's 47 nautical miles, or 9,4 hours of sail time. That's a window of 18,8 hours. It takes nearly nine and half hours to sail from Dragonstone to either coast on sides of it.

We can calculate range of view on sea. Let's take for example one of Columbus' ships, Santa Maria (it's bigger than Euron's ship Silence), depth 3.2 m (10 ft), mainmast is 15.9 m (52 ft). Combined height is 19.1 m, or 62 ft. Thus distance to the horizon is 9.6 miles.

http://www.ringbell.co.uk/info/hdist.htm <- Distance to the Horizon Calculator.

Combined distance that needs to be covered is 108 miles, thus to have a view thru Blackwater Bay, Dany will have to place at least 10 of the biggest ships from her fleet, to guard entry to the Bay 24/7. And even then there's still will be a window of nearly two hours of time, for Euron's ships to slip between those guarding ships.

So to really prevent any ships from passing by, Dany will have to put in the Bay, 100 of her ships. Only then they will be able to see on time approaching ships, and prevent them from getting by. She can't waste so many resources on only one of her problems.

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9 minutes ago, Megorova said:

, the reason for that is that Tyrion still doesn't want Jaime or Cersei to die. He wants to be accepted, and aknowleged by them. But if they will die, he won't have a family anymore, and he will never be forgiven by them. He still can't let go his family. Thus he's always discouraging Dany from any real action, and from using her dragons.

Are you serious? Yesterday, in this very thread, you wrote "Tyrion isn't as smart, as he thinks he is. He's a drunkard, and a debauchee, and he hates his family."

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/148565-spoilers-the-war-makes-no-sense/&do=findComment&comment=8053583

 

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13 hours ago, jcmontea said:

How many people do you think work and live in the Red Keep day in and day out who could be considered innocent people? 

Here?

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/gbbysl9gvyru6dk6rkhd.jpg

I think 1000+ people, and several more thousands of soldiers living in barracks, between outer gates of Red Keep, and second row of gates and towers. There's also horse stables located above those barracs, in that first inner yard behind outer gates.

So how many people, aside from soldiers live in that castle?

50+ people that tend to horses;

50+ people that take care of the gardens and terraces;

100+ people working in kitchens (because there's way more than one kitchen in Red Keep);

500+ (maids that tend to various dames and ladys-in-waiting, chambermaids that clean in the castle, servants, cupbearers, pages, etc.);

several hundreds of royalty and noble courtians, that live in Red Keep together with their entire families, and their own servants. 

When Ned went to be King's Hand, he brought with him his family and servants, 50+ people. When Tywin was living there with Jaime and Cersei, prior Jaime joined Kingsguard, they also lived there with whole entorage. There's many nobles that live in the castle 24/7, with their family members, advisors, ladys-in-waiting, etc.

Easily 1000+ people.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1qjbi3/how_many_people_populate_a_medival_castle_and_how/

"You would have blacksmiths maintaining armour, horseshoes and weapons, stable masters caring for the horses, bowyers and fletchers making bows and arrows, cooks and maids, carpenters maintining the wooden parts of the castle (including ramparts often built on top of the walls in case of a siege), siege engineers maintaining and manning any siege engines fitted to the castle, seamstresses and tailors to maintain clothes and uniforms, peasants to maintain fields and animals, quartermasters to take care of the stock of food and water (in hotter areas the latter was extremely important). Then comes soldiers - bowmen or crossbowmen, spearmen and cavalry, the nobleman (or his representative) and his retuny and often the families of all of the above."

"Krak des Chevaliers, one of the largest castles in the Holy Land, had a garrison of about 2000 men."

http://www.islamiclandmarks.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Krak-des-Chevalier-castle-overhead-view.jpg

Red Keep is two-four times larger than this castle. So if this castle hosted 2000 soldiers, then it's more than likely that in Red Keep can live 1000+ civilians, and 2000+ soldiers and knights.

1 hour ago, Nowy Tends said:

Are you serious? Yesterday, in this very thread, you wrote "Tyrion isn't as smart, as he thinks he is. He's a drunkard, and a debauchee, and he hates his family."

Yes, I'm serious. People are complicated. Human psychology is complicated. Relationships between family members are complicated. Tyrion can hate Cersei and Tywin, for never accepting him, and simultaneously trying to please them, and earn their respect and gratitude, to be accepted as their equal.

One doesn't contradict the other. Shades of grey.

10 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Not sure if it would kill less people than a siege

I think that in siege will die way lesser people. Because women, children, and civillian men won't take active part in defenses. They will be just living within city walls, nearly as usual as always.

If the city walls will be breached by invading warriors, then they will attack only enemie soldiers, they won't kill women, children, and civillians. They won't break into houses of average people. They will go straight to Red Keep, and fight against guards and soldiers present there.

But in case if KL will be attacked by dragons. They will burn everyone. Furthermore fires that they will start, will burn entire city. Because if Red Keep will be set on fire, other structures near it, will also catch on fire. And all houses in KL are standing close to each other, so the fire will spread from house to house. And in the beginning of attack people will be too scared by dragons, to go and extinguish flames, that took over first houses. And when mass panic will subdue enough for people to start thinking clearly, it will be already too late. Entire city will be burning, and fire will spread everywhere. The panica will start, people will run towards various gates, crushing each other. Smoke everywhere, narrow streets, no clear air to breathe within city walls. Because of fire and smoke, ways out will be blocked. Or people in state of panic, and because of limited by smoke visibility, will be lost on their way out. The city will turn into a trap, and into a mass grave.

Thus in case with dragon attack, Dany will kill 1 million people.

Some will be burned directly by dragons, but the rest will die in mass panic, in fires, or suffocate with smoke. The resulting chaos will kill way more people, than will be burned directly by dragons.

7 hours ago, The Golden Wolf said:

Everyone, even Eddard, would have did what needed to be done. 

5 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

Imagine Robb Stark (not exactly a war criminal) in Dany's position (in Dragonstone, with dragons and a huge army): how long would have he hesitated before attacking?

Jon was raised by Ned, together with Robb.

And it was Jon who persuaded Dany not to attack King's Landing with her dragons, after fiasco at Highgarden. He was the one who convinced her to attack only Lannisters soldiers.

So you both are wrong about what Ned or Robb would have done in the same situation.

Edited by Megorova

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On 10/9/2017 at 10:23 PM, jcmontea said:

Dude. 

You literally said this:

“On the castle issue, I vote with MrJay. In fact, I'd go a bit further. I don't think the show is even true to its own logic. Do you remember the scene from "The Wolf and the Lion" (Season 1,5) where Robert talks to Cersei about the dangers of a Viserys-led invasion? He says the Westerosi leaders would hole up in their castles.”
 
you said that the show is not true to its own logic because they had Cersei give up a castle after hearing Robert talk in season 1 about how staying in castles would not work. How does that make sense?
 
...

Let’s say that Lord Reasonable is threatened by enemy forces. He decides not to stay in his castle. In Robert’s terms, he won’t “hole up” there. You appear to be saying that because he makes this decision, it absolutely follows that he must give up his castle. This is a false dichotomy. One does not have to choose between a sort of “stay in your shell” strategy and taking some kind of offensive action, even pretty aggressive action. 

If I attempted to formalize your weak argument, I could try something like this: You claim that my assertion doesn’t make sense. You claim that I am proceeding in a way like the following: 

One must not do action A (simply holing up). It will not work.

Cersei does action B (abandoning castles). 

Therefore, Cersei is doing something that will not work; the show isn’t true to its own logic. 

On this basis, you claim that my statement does not make sense. But I have not made any argument like the one above, and you have not established the fact that I have made any argument like the one above.

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1 hour ago, Jabul said:

Let’s say that Lord Reasonable is threatened by enemy forces. He decides not to stay in his castle. In Robert’s terms, he won’t “hole up” there. You appear to be saying that because he makes this decision, it absolutely follows that he must give up his castle. This is a false dichotomy. One does not have to choose between a sort of “stay in your shell” strategy and taking some kind of offensive action, even pretty aggressive action. 

If I attempted to formalize your weak argument, I could try something like this: You claim that my assertion doesn’t make sense. You claim that I am proceeding in a way like the following: 

One must not do action A (simply holing up). It will not work.

Cersei does action B (abandoning castles). 

Therefore, Cersei is doing something that will not work; the show isn’t true to its own logic. 

On this basis, you claim that my statement does not make sense. But I have not made any argument like the one above, and you have not established the fact that I have made any argument like the one above.

Then how is Robert and Cersei’s conversation an example of the show not being true to its own logic?

Edited by jcmontea

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In Red Keep live more than 1000 people.

And main quarters where royalty live, Maegor's Holdfast, has no secret passages leading to it. Thus even if Dany's people will go thru those tunnels, they won't be able to get to Cersei. Because Maegor's Holdfast "is a castle-within-a-castle and is the strongest place in the Red Keep". "Maegor's Holdfast is the only building in the Red Keep that has no secret passages, as Maegor "wanted no rats in his own walls", except for one secret escape door that does not connect to any other passage in the Red Keep", "The holdfast lies behind walls twelve feet thick.".

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Red_Keep

"The Great Hall is the throne room of the king. The Hall itself is cavernous, and can sit 1,000 people."

"The Holdfast contains the Queen's Ballroom, a hall only half as big as the Small Hall in the Tower of the Hand. The Ballroom seats one hundred".

"The Tower of the Hand contains the chambers of the Hand of the King. Its Small Hall is a long room with a high-vaulted ceiling and bench space for two hundred".

"The Maidenvault is a long, slate-roofed building located behind the royal sept. Mace Tyrell's court stayed there during their visit to King's Landing."

"The tunnels are supposedly full of traps."

No way for Dany to get to Cersei without harming other people in Red Keep. And there's no way to get to Cersei even thru those secret tunnels <- probably this is the reason why Tyrion and Varys haven't proposed to Dany to get into Red Keep thru this way.

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2 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Then how is Robert and Cersei’s conversation an example of the show not being true to its own logic?

Good question. I believe that there are places where the show is not true to its own logic. However, discussion of these things would probably take us beyond the current issue, even beyond issues which are appropriate for this thread. Let’s say my statement applies only to the castle issue. (I also quoted King Robert as saying, “Only a fool would meet the Dothraki in an open field,” but there are ways we can get around that.) My exact statement was 

"On the castle issue, I vote with MrJay. In fact, I'd go a bit further. I don't think the show is even true to its own logic. (Underlining added.)" 

Thinking further, I see that there are ways to avoid the whole business. One possibility—It’s reasonable to believe that Cersei would follow the former king’s advice on strategy and tactics. She hated the man, but she knows he was a good warrior. Saying this is reasonable, however, doesn’t say that it’s inevitable. Perhaps Cersie forgot the whole conversation. Perhaps she doesn’t even want to think about her former husband concerning his opinions on military matters. Then we have to judge the Lannister queen’s actions as smart, stupid, or something in between. Show logic doesn’t enter into the matter.

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7 minutes ago, Megorova said:

In Red Keep live more than 1000 people.

And main quarters where royalty live, Maegor's Holdfast, has no secret passages leading to it. Thus even if Dany's people will go thru those tunnels, they won't be able to get to Cersei. Because Maegor's Holdfast "is a castle-within-a-castle and is the strongest place in the Red Keep". "Maegor's Holdfast is the only building in the Red Keep that has no secret passages, as Maegor "wanted no rats in his own walls", except for one secret escape door that does not connect to any other passage in the Red Keep", "The holdfast lies behind walls twelve feet thick.".

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Red_Keep

"The Great Hall is the throne room of the king. The Hall itself is cavernous, and can sit 1,000 people."

"The Holdfast contains the Queen's Ballroom, a hall only half as big as the Small Hall in the Tower of the Hand. The Ballroom seats one hundred".

"The Tower of the Hand contains the chambers of the Hand of the King. Its Small Hall is a long room with a high-vaulted ceiling and bench space for two hundred".

"The Maidenvault is a long, slate-roofed building located behind the royal sept. Mace Tyrell's court stayed there during their visit to King's Landing."

"The tunnels are supposedly full of traps."

No way for Dany to get to Cersei without harming other people in Red Keep. And there's no way to get to Cersei even thru those secret tunnels <- probably this is the reason why Tyrion and Varys haven't proposed to Dany to get into Red Keep thru this way.

I was thinking something in the thousands so this number does not surprise me. 

This is not something Daenerys would do as a first resort and would have to be really pissed and against the wall for her to do it. Which is exactly the situation she gets into before she thinks about it and then is immediately talked out of it.

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14 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

I was thinking something in the thousands so this number does not surprise me. 

This is not something Daenerys would do as a first resort and would have to be really pissed and against the wall for her to do it. Which is exactly the situation she gets into before she thinks about it and then is immediately talked out of it.

She probably would have done too, out of desperation, it if Jon hadn't been there to talk her out of it.
It's amazing what being told "don't do it" by the person you're having a crush on can do to your determination.
I also liked how the show figuratively showed that Jon's "ice" can easily soothe Dany's temper when she get's too fired up.

 

Edited by MinscS2

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19 minutes ago, Jabul said:

Good question. I believe that there are places where the show is not true to its own logic. However, discussion of these things would probably take us beyond the current issue, even beyond issues which are appropriate for this thread. Let’s say my statement applies only to the castle issue. (I also quoted King Robert as saying, “Only a fool would meet the Dothraki in an open field,” but there are ways we can get around that.) My exact statement was 

"On the castle issue, I vote with MrJay. In fact, I'd go a bit further. I don't think the show is even true to its own logic. (Underlining added.)" 

Thinking further, I see that there are ways to avoid the whole business. One possibility—It’s reasonable to believe that Cersei would follow the former king’s advice on strategy and tactics. She hated the man, but she knows he was a good warrior. Saying this is reasonable, however, doesn’t say that it’s inevitable. Perhaps Cersie forgot the whole conversation. Perhaps she doesn’t even want to think about her former husband concerning his opinions on military matters. Then we have to judge the Lannister queen’s actions as smart, stupid, or something in between. Show logic doesn’t enter into the matter.

Thats my point though. I think your misinterpreting Robert’s comments. Robert is saying if they stay in their castles they are done. They are f*ed either way. If they met the Dothraki in the field they would get slaughtered. If they hid behind their castles there people would get slaughtered and they would lose all legitimacy to rule. That was why he wanted to kill Dany in Season 1 because he didn’t think they could survive if they crossed.

It seems like Cersei remembers that comment if anything because she def. does not adopt a lets stay in our castles and wait it out approach. Of course, that was not a viable strategy for her since she needed to get her hands on gold so possible Robert’s comments did not even enter into her thinking.

 

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6 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

She probably would have done too, out of desperation, it if Jon hadn't been there to talk her out of it.
It's amazing what being told "don't do it" by the person you're having a crush on can do to your determination.
I also liked how the show figuratively showed that Jon's "ice" can easily soothe Dany when she get's all fired up.

 

Yea. Very possible Dany does it if Jon wasn’t there. Tyrion had lost all credibility by that point.  Although maybe Missandei could have said something. But for me the point is its not something she would do until backed into the corner which there she was. 

That is pretty funny that dynamic. They are totally written for each other. 

Edited by jcmontea

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