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FoyeTwenty Boston

Movie vs Final Season

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After watching the abrupt and uneven pacing of a shortened season 7, I'm starting to think a 3 part movie, with a real Hollywood budget might be the only way to satisfyingly conclude the story in a 6 episode run time. They would have to do it Lord of the Rings style and shoot all three movies at once I think, to not lock up actors for all that time. I really don't see why HBO wouldn't want to go this route, other than D&D just wanting out asap. It would easily  be the biggest movie HBO have ever done, plus would strech out the storytelling for at least another 3 years. 

What does everyone else feel about it? I would just really love a huge budget to do the conclusion justice 

 

Edited by FoyeTwenty Boston

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I want to first say that for those who have noticed me, I'm sorry for being so salty. I really am. Having said that... 

 

I think this show is ruined. You can't make a story like this into a movie. You'd have to set everything up, and leave perhaps the final few days to do a full movie right. 

 

They are apparently making the last seasons episodes longer. Which is good. 6 short movies basically. But even that isn't enough. The story is already beyond repair imo, and only a full length season or 2 will afford enough time to bring about a decent resolution. 

3 movies or 6 episodes just will not cut it. Perhaps if they made 2 more 12 episode seasons it may work, but not after they already butchered the story so much.

 

D&D clearly want to move on. Which is sad. It reeks of them rising on the back if a good story and Martin's work, to only abandon it after its served its purpose. Asoiaf deserved better. 

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23 hours ago, FoyeTwenty Boston said:

After watching the abrupt and uneven pacing of a shortened season 7, I'm starting to think a 3 part movie, with a real Hollywood budget might be the only way to satisfyingly conclude the story in a 6 episode run time. They would have to do it Lord of the Rings style and shoot all three movies at once I think, to not lock up actors for all that time. I really don't see why HBO wouldn't want to go this route, other than D&D just wanting out asap. It would easily  be the biggest movie HBO have ever done, plus would strech out the storytelling for at least another 3 years. 

What does everyone else feel about it? I would just really love a huge budget to do the conclusion justice 

 

HBO has both the budget and the will to do hundreds of GoT-episodes.

It's D&D who are tired of this project and wants to move on to different projects.
It's their fault we only got 7 episodes in season 7 and will (probably) only get 6 episodes in season 8. They want to wrap this up asap.
If they are unwilling to do more than 6 episodes, you can bet that they're even more unwilling to do 3 movies, even if HBO said "We'll pay you anything!"

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In season 8, they will make each of the six episodes feature film length, so we're going to basically get SIX movies. I don't expect that it will solve everything, but I think it will be better than getting a 3 part movie. 

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8 minutes ago, 4 Eyed Crow said:

In season 8, they will make each of the six episodes feature film length, so we're going to basically get SIX movies. I don't expect that it will solve everything, but I think it will be better than getting a 3 part movie. 

Well, the episodes being feature length doesn't mean that every episode will be as long as a typical movie. 
It just means that they will be longer than usual, so instead of 50-60 min per episode we might get 70-80 min per episode, maybe one episode will be 90 min long if we're really lucky. The average movie 2015 was about 120-125 min long, and as much as I'd absolutely love for the episodes of season 8 to be this long, it simply sounds too good to be true. The show needs it and the audience want's it, but I doubt D&D are up to the task. I hope I'm wrong though. :)

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While I think it would be cool, I don't see D&D doing it. They seem to want to get out of this. HBO wanted 10 seasons but they said no to that (obviously HBO would have it keep going as long as it made them money and it's certainly making them money now...).

I would guess that each episode is around 90 minutes next season and the final MAY be 2 hours long, but I kinda doubt that. Even so, it's not as long as a movie.

I don't think this show will have a "satisfying conclusion" though. One, because that will be very subjective on what satisfying is but two, D&D have had to write the ending to a story that's been 20+ years in the making and GRRM hasn't been able to do it yet. Now sure, they know what the exact ending is supposed to be but the journey of how to get there is what is suffering. So hopefully the ending makes up for the uneven pacing of the show and some of its .... more interesting .... scenes let's say.

But I think D&D are running into the same exact problem as GRRM as far as the ending (and why he hasn't finished the books yet) how do you get to that ending that you want so bad, but make the characters organically do it? It's a very VERY tough thing to do.

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At this point what is the difference between 3 movies and 6 episodes? 

Season 7 if anything felt like a movie when it came to its production value and its pacing. I personally like the season even though I had some issues with it but I am familiar with all the criticism and the budget not being big enough was something I hardly heard if at all. 

Not sure there is a difference when we talk about TV vs movies when GoT already has the budget it has. 

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2 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

HBO has both the budget and the will to do hundreds of GoT-episodes.

It's D&D who are tired of this project and wants to move on to different projects.
It's their fault we only got 7 episodes in season 7 and will (probably) only get 6 episodes in season 8. They want to wrap this up asap.
If they are unwilling to do more than 6 episodes, you can bet that they're even more unwilling to do 3 movies, even if HBO said "We'll pay you anything!"

I bet if GoT didn't have such a meteoric rise (with most praise going to them) then they wouldn't be so eager to end a contract and start a new deal with their newfound fame.

 

But I think D&D are running into the same exact problem as GRRM as far as the ending (and why he hasn't finished the books yet) how do you get to that ending that you want so bad, but make the characters organically do it? It's a very VERY tough thing to do.

 

You may be right, but I have a different opinion. I think GRRM just made too many characters. As is, I totally see this story having a decent end (counting books 1-3). But I think he was pressured into extending the story. Hence why books 4-5 seem to be making new characters and new plot threads. It's only difficult (for me) to write a story when I am forced to change it midway through.

Now with all these named characters and threads, the story is HUGE. I would quit if it were my tale. No way I could handle all of that. 

Edited by MrJay

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49 minutes ago, MrJay said:

I bet if GoT didn't have such a meteoric rise (with most praise going to them) then they wouldn't be so eager to end a contract and start a new deal with their newfound fame.

 

 

You may be right, but I have a different opinion. I think GRRM just made too many characters. As is, I totally see this story having a decent end (counting books 1-3). But I think he was pressured into extending the story. Hence why books 4-5 seem to be making new characters and new plot threads. It's only difficult (for me) to write a story when I am forced to change it midway through.

Now with all these named characters and threads, the story is HUGE. I would quit if it were my tale. No way I could handle all of that. 

I don't think he was pressured by outside forces. I think what happened is that he had a very clever trick that he played in the first three books. He succesfully hid who the main characters were for a time and that allowed him to kill off other chracters and create the impression that no one was safe and of unpredictibility. 

However, in order to sustain that he needed to introduce a whole new set of characters in the second act or else it would be clear who the main characters were and that feeling of unpredictibility and anyone can die would be gone. 

Unfortunatley for him its clear regardless now who the main characters are no matter how many new chracters he introduces. 

Edited by jcmontea

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As others have mentioned, I think it is clear that D&D are tiring of GoT and are eager to move on. Hence the rushed, plot hole-filled, patchy storytelling of late. It is certainly hard to imagine how every character in this vast story can get a satisfactory resolution in 8 hours (that's taking them at their word about each episode being 90 min). If they had a full ten-episode season this year with another full season next year, then they might have been able to do it. Sadly, I think the remaining short time will mainly focus on the big sequences and set pieces with the dragons and White Walkers - we've said goodbye to the days of small human moments between characters that really make this story so great. :( 

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2 hours ago, MrJay said:

I bet if GoT didn't have such a meteoric rise (with most praise going to them) then they wouldn't be so eager to end a contract and start a new deal with their newfound fame.

 

 

You may be right, but I have a different opinion. I think GRRM just made too many characters. As is, I totally see this story having a decent end (counting books 1-3). But I think he was pressured into extending the story. Hence why books 4-5 seem to be making new characters and new plot threads. It's only difficult (for me) to write a story when I am forced to change it midway through.

Now with all these named characters and threads, the story is HUGE. I would quit if it were my tale. No way I could handle all of that. 

I think you're right, I think the too many character aspect is a big problem. It's hard to keep them all straight. I think things definitely spiraled a little outta control because he is long winded (is that the right word for writing? Long worded?). I don't think he was forced to do more, I think his own writing style expanded things out a bit more than he expected.

 

1 hour ago, jcmontea said:

I don't think he was pressured by outside forces. I think what happened is that he had a very clever trick that he played in the first three books. He succesfully hid who the main characters were for a time and that allowed him to kill off other chracters and create the impression that no one was safe and of unpredictibility. 

However, in order to sustain that he needed to introduce a whole new set of characters in the second act or else it would be clear who the main characters were and that feeling of unpredictibility and anyone can die would be gone. 

Unfortunatley for him its clear regardless now who the main characters are no matter how many new chracters he introduces. 

Those are some very good points. While we can now look back and go, Obviously Jon and Danny are main characters, it wasn't so obvious after the first three books. But you're right, you can only do so much with making the main characters feel unsafe. He screwed up a few times (obviously this is just my opinion) with having Danny put in dangerous situations and plot armor seeing her out of it. We will see what he does with Jon but, we can assume that he will come back and it will kinda be the same problem, in my eyes at least.

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2 hours ago, jcmontea said:

I don't think he was pressured by outside forces. I think what happened is that he had a very clever trick that he played in the first three books. He succesfully hid who the main characters were for a time and that allowed him to kill off other chracters and create the impression that no one was safe and of unpredictibility. 

However, in order to sustain that he needed to introduce a whole new set of characters in the second act or else it would be clear who the main characters were and that feeling of unpredictibility and anyone can die would be gone. 

Unfortunatley for him its clear regardless now who the main characters are no matter how many new chracters he introduces. 

This is a good point.  I'd also note that GRRM's own self-described writing style is the reason for what happened.  He said there's two types of writers- architects who plan and gardeners who drop a seed and water it.  He's a gardener.  He felt compelled to introduce new characters and locations so as not to leave loose threads- like you have this big thing about Dorne in ASOS with Oberyn and instead of letting that be the end, GRRM felt the need to go to Dorne and see how they reacted to Oberyn.  Similar with the Iron Islands.  

5 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

HBO has both the budget and the will to do hundreds of GoT-episodes.

It's D&D who are tired of this project and wants to move on to different projects.
It's their fault we only got 7 episodes in season 7 and will (probably) only get 6 episodes in season 8. They want to wrap this up asap.
If they are unwilling to do more than 6 episodes, you can bet that they're even more unwilling to do 3 movies, even if HBO said "We'll pay you anything!"

Yeah, I don't fault D & D for most of the issues this season had (personally I thought it was overall a very good season with some gaping plot holes that detracted from it but didn't ruin it), but this is one thing I can't get around.  Like it should have just been 2 final seasons with a full episode order- they would have had more time to flesh things out and make them make more sense had they done it that way.

And like I said, I don't fault D & D for a lot of this.  They signed up to create an adaptation from GRRM's books and were counting on him to finish the series by now.  They are fans of the books like all of us and are now stuck essentially writing fan-fiction.  They are in over their heads both creatively and especially economically (time-wise, they are expected to turn in scripts on a really short time-table once each season ends. )  

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On 9/12/2017 at 6:29 AM, MinscS2 said:

HBO has both the budget and the will to do hundreds of GoT-episodes.

It's D&D who are tired of this project and wants to move on to different projects.
It's their fault we only got 7 episodes in season 7 and will (probably) only get 6 episodes in season 8. They want to wrap this up asap.
If they are unwilling to do more than 6 episodes, you can bet that they're even more unwilling to do 3 movies, even if HBO said "We'll pay you anything!"

If I'm not mistaken, the original plan that D&D had was for seven seasons. HBO wanted more seasons, but they stuck with their original plan, doing only 3 extra episodes (if the original season 7 had 10 episodes). I don't blame them for sticking with their original outline.

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6 hours ago, Song of the Sea said:

As others have mentioned, I think it is clear that D&D are tiring of GoT and are eager to move on. Hence the rushed, plot hole-filled, patchy storytelling of late. It is certainly hard to imagine how every character in this vast story can get a satisfactory resolution in 8 hours (that's taking them at their word about each episode being 90 min). If they had a full ten-episode season this year with another full season next year, then they might have been able to do it. Sadly, I think the remaining short time will mainly focus on the big sequences and set pieces with the dragons and White Walkers - we've said goodbye to the days of small human moments between characters that really make this story so great. :( 

yes, the human moments are the things I was looking more forward to....i hope this is important next season since it is supposed to be the ending of the books.

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3 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

If I'm not mistaken, the original plan that D&D had was for seven seasons. HBO wanted more seasons, but they stuck with their original plan, doing only 3 extra episodes (if the original season 7 had 10 episodes). I don't blame them for sticking with their original outline.

Was that their original outline? 

I know they have been talking seven seasons since at least season 4. I recall interviews that year mentioning 7 seasons, that season 4 represented the most spread out everyone would be and it would all start contracting and that they wanted to follow breaking bad's example and not overstay their welcome but tell the story they intended to and not pad it. 

Edited by jcmontea

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2 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

yes, the human moments are the things I was looking more forward to....i hope this is important next season since it is supposed to be the ending of the books.

This is when you start feeling the absence of a woman in the writer's room. I feel like having that diversity in the writer's room adds a greater dimension of perspectives and a broader understanding of the audience's needs that three bros are not likely to capture. 

Edited by Song of the Sea

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Just now, Song of the Sea said:

This is when you start feeling the absence of a woman in the writer's room. I feel like having that diversity in the writer's room adds a greater dimension of perspectives and a broader understanding of the audience's needs that three bros are not likely to capture. 

yes I completely agree. The more writers the better, and it would be great if there were also women there. Unfortunately we only have two writers; occasionally another one. It's a pitty.

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2 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Was that their original outline? 

I know they have been talking seven seasons since at least season 4. I recall interviews that year mentioning 7 seasons, that season 4 represented the most spread out everyone would be and it would all start contracting and that they wanted to follow breaking bad's example and not overstay their welcome but tell the story they intended to and not pad it. 

I had heard Liam Cunningham say in an interview that they had originally planned for 7 seasons. I'll see if I can find that interview.

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4 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

yes I completely agree. The more writers the better, and it would be great if there were also women there. Unfortunately we only have two writers; occasionally another one. It's a pitty.

I agree with the sentiment, but not the statement. 

 

GRRM is one man and many women have said he writes women well. Meanwhile, D&D alone would result in 2x the writing power and yet they fall short. 

 

I'll take one exceptional writer over a have dozen smucks. And though I hate to be that guy, assuming men cannot write "human" moments is a tad sexist. Would you be happy if they hired Stephanie Meyer or El James? They are women. 

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15 hours ago, MrJay said:

GRRM is one man and many women have said he writes women well. Meanwhile, D&D alone would result in 2x the writing power and yet they fall short. 

The show runners do not have the time Martin has had to write the books. Having diverse writers can provide different perspectives that a single writer may not consider given the time constraints.

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