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will sam hate jon now


snow is the man

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  • 4 weeks later...

Samwell might get angry because he cares about Gilly and by extension, Gilly's baby.  I'm sure Samwell will grow to like Mance's baby in time.  The more important question is, what will Mance Rayder do when he finds out that Jon tricked him and his baby is actually in Oldtown.

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By the time they come back around again Stannis will have burnt Shireen so there will be a realised logic in the plan. But sending away Gilly's child will be the least of concerns Sam and co will have about Jon's behaviour. They won't so much hate him as fear him.

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On 9/11/2017 at 8:02 AM, snow is the man said:

For taking gilly's baby away. I am curious about how they will play this. Will he understand what jon did and forgive it or be angry with jon

Help me out and tell me who they is.

There is a very good possibility that Marwyn has commissioned the Cinnamon Wind and taken off to find Daenerys.

Aboard the ship is Gilly who is involved in the switch of her baby whose father is Craster and Mance’s babe who was birthed by Dalla. Plus Maester Aemon’s Targ's pickled body is on that ship. If Sam ever gets to speak with Gilly again she best be telling him the truth else they will find themselves on one of the many American talk shows --- Maury comes to mind.

 

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34 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Help me out and tell me who they is.

There is a very good possibility that Marwyn has commissioned the Cinnamon Wind and taken off to find Daenerys with Gilly & Mance’s babe and Aemon’s pickled body.

 

 

That's like a Time Warp for someone like Gilly.  From life in the frozen north, boat trip to Braavos, dock at Oldtown, and then to travel to the far east to Slaver's Bay.  Talk about culture shock.

Samwell will be furious if Craster's son gets barbecued by Mellisandre.  Some of the blame will be directed at Jon.  There is a very good chance that the red woman will burn Craster's boy, thinking he was the son of the king beyond the wall.  Chalk this up as another one of Jon's poor decisions.  Who will be left to tell Mellisandre that the baby she now has is not the son of Mance. 

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14 minutes ago, Intel XEON said:

That's like a Time Warp for someone like Gilly.  From life in the frozen north, boat trip to Braavos, dock at Oldtown, and then to travel to the far east to Slaver's Bay.  Talk about culture shock.

Samwell will be furious if Craster's son gets barbecued by Mellisandre.  Some of the blame will be directed at Jon.  There is a very good chance that the red woman will burn Craster's boy, thinking he was the son of the king beyond the wall.  Chalk this up as another one of Jon's poor decisions.  Who will be left to tell Mellisandre that the baby she now has is not the son of Mance. 

I asked @snow is the man to help me out and tell me who "they" is.

Sam left Gilly on a ship with the intention of returning to said ship. Marwyn may have commandeered said ship. Therefore Gilly, Mance's child and Aemon's pickled body may be in route to Slaver's Bay.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Intel XEON said:

Chalk this up as another one of Jon's poor decisions.  Who will be left to tell Mellisandre that the baby she now has is not the son of Mance. 

Val knows and the text heavily implies Mel herself already knows.

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I don't think Sam would ever hate Jon. He might get upset or angry at him but I don't think he would ever stay angry at Jon for long. Long grudges necessary for hate aren't in Sam's character. Besides, it's not like Jon switched Monster with Mance's son to be cruel - it was to protect them. As others have pointed out, it is likely Mel already knows about the baby swap, and even if she doesn't, Val and Jon himself know. I think Monster will be fine... for now, anyway. 

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9 hours ago, Intel XEON said:

That's like a Time Warp for someone like Gilly.  From life in the frozen north, boat trip to Braavos, dock at Oldtown, and then to travel to the far east to Slaver's Bay.  Talk about culture shock.

Samwell will be furious if Craster's son gets barbecued by Mellisandre.  Some of the blame will be directed at Jon.  There is a very good chance that the red woman will burn Craster's boy, thinking he was the son of the king beyond the wall.  Chalk this up as another one of Jon's poor decisions.  Who will be left to tell Mellisandre that the baby she now has is not the son of Mance. 

What if Craster has Stark blood?? Will Mels spell wotk anyway?? 

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10 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Craster is a Stark.  His son's blood may have magic. 

There's an old topic post here about that.  Craster's children had great value to the white walkers.  I support this idea of Craster being a Stark.  What prize will Mellie get for burning Craster's son?  An ice dragon?

I found the original discussion, right here =>

 

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On 11/09/2017 at 1:02 PM, snow is the man said:

For taking gilly's baby away. I am curious about how they will play this. Will he understand what jon did and forgive it or be angry with jon

 

On 03/10/2017 at 8:03 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

Samwell might get angry because he cares about Gilly and by extension, Gilly's baby.  I'm sure Samwell will grow to like Mance's baby in time.  The more important question is, what will Mance Rayder do when he finds out that Jon tricked him and his baby is actually in Oldtown.

Sam realises, with some help from Aemon, what Jon did and why while they are on board the ship to Braavos.  He understands Jon did this seemingly cruel thing to protect Mance's son from being burned by Mel.  Sam doesn't seem the kind of guy who will be angry with Jon for saving an innocent child from being burned alive even if the switch understandably leaves Gilly distraught.  Similarly, Mance will be glad his son was saved from such a fate.  His son is now effectively a hostage, something that Jon required from all the wilding leaders who came through the Wall.  Mance won't like this but he'll have the sense to know Jon saved his son and that he was always going to be a hostage.

On 04/10/2017 at 1:52 AM, Intel XEON said:

That's like a Time Warp for someone like Gilly.  From life in the frozen north, boat trip to Braavos, dock at Oldtown, and then to travel to the far east to Slaver's Bay.  Talk about culture shock.

Samwell will be furious if Craster's son gets barbecued by Mellisandre.  Some of the blame will be directed at Jon.  There is a very good chance that the red woman will burn Craster's boy, thinking he was the son of the king beyond the wall.  Chalk this up as another one of Jon's poor decisions.  Who will be left to tell Mellisandre that the baby she now has is not the son of Mance. 

Mel knows what Jon has done.  Why would she burn Gilly's son?  She believes in the power of King's blood and her reputation rests on her ability to actually wield magical power (the shadow babies).  Burning an innocent child, failing in the process to achieve anything magical and leaving herself open to accusations of being a fraud and a childkiller seems a particularly dumb move and not one she will make.  The monster is safe from Mel.

On 04/10/2017 at 5:58 AM, chrisdaw said:

Val knows and the text heavily implies Mel herself already knows.

yep

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  • 1 month later...
On 10/5/2017 at 8:01 AM, the trees have eyes said:

 

Sam realises, with some help from Aemon, what Jon did and why while they are on board the ship to Braavos.  He understands Jon did this seemingly cruel thing to protect Mance's son from being burned by Mel.  Sam doesn't seem the kind of guy who will be angry with Jon for saving an innocent child from being burned alive even if the switch understandably leaves Gilly distraught.  Similarly, Mance will be glad his son was saved from such a fate.  His son is now effectively a hostage, something that Jon required from all the wilding leaders who came through the Wall.  Mance won't like this but he'll have the sense to know Jon saved his son and that he was always going to be a hostage.

Mel knows what Jon has done.  Why would she burn Gilly's son?  She believes in the power of King's blood and her reputation rests on her ability to actually wield magical power (the shadow babies).  Burning an innocent child, failing in the process to achieve anything magical and leaving herself open to accusations of being a fraud and a childkiller seems a particularly dumb move and not one she will make.  The monster is safe from Mel.

yep

Mel doesn't know about the baby switch.  

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On 04/10/2017 at 6:54 PM, Faera said:

I don't think Sam would ever hate Jon. He might get upset or angry at him but I don't think he would ever stay angry at Jon for long. Long grudges necessary for hate aren't in Sam's character. Besides, it's not like Jon switched Monster with Mance's son to be cruel - it was to protect them. As others have pointed out, it is likely Mel already knows about the baby swap, and even if she doesn't, Val and Jon himself know. I think Monster will be fine... for now, anyway. 

Agreed and for the most part i don't think it matters, if he did get angry what's he going to do? i don't think there would be anything he could do.

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I don't think Sam would ever hate Jon. He has an understanding of the difficult decisions Jon has had to make and has himself practiced deceptions in varying degrees in service to a good cause. (I'm referring to Sam's role in Jon's election and to keeping his knowledge of Bran's survival from Jon.)

But beyond this, I think there are signs that the babies may never have been swapped at all. ...  I stress "may" because I'm still somewhat of two minds on the matter ... I lean more toward not swapped, but wouldn't entirely rule out swapped.   

I laid out most of my reasoning in an old thread of mine, in the last few posts on page 9 ... 

I've come to think that Gilly can go against her own warning about naming infants and enter into her discussion with Sam of eventually naming the baby Aemon Battle-born because, though Sam thinks she's talking about the baby with them, she is talking about the baby at the wall ... and she has no expectation of actually having to name him. It's all speculation.

After her tearful conversation with Jon, where would Gilly have turned for advice on her dilemma, but to Val ? (All the more if Val is a "wise woman")

Val says Mel knows who "Monster" is, and I believe that's a truthful answer...."He's no kin to me." may also be completely truthful if, as may be, Val and Dalla are not blood sisters but sisters in an order or through their vocation - as in The Silent Sisters, e.g. - or like the various non-blood brotherhoods... even extending to Borroq calling Jon "Brother".

Mel knows that Mance didn't become a king based on his bloodline. Why would she think his son possessed king's blood? By contrast Robert's (and therefore Stannis') claim relied on his Targaryen ancestry ... and we know that Mel wanted to burn Edric for his king's blood.

 

 

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