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Sir Hedge of Hog

Jon and the North

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What do you think the reaction of the northern lords will be when they find out about his lineage. I don't think he will be KiTN for much longer, and this then throws the whole alliance into chaos. He wont want the iron throne and being 'unamed' will hurt him deep. How will they pull things together? The lords are bound to find out. Jon will feel obligated, but so distraught when he finds out about Ned not being his father, but also someone might reveal the secret to drive Jon and Dany apart.

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I don't think it will be a factor. I keep being brought back to the "6 episodes". That isn't enough time to do anything at all. 

In the books it will be good. Jon will have to come to grips with it, his love for Daeny, and the state of the North. It will be a major plot point and bring with it its own problems. 

 

In the show, it's merely an excuse to put him on the throne as a king without people thinking it's out of left field. 

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7 minutes ago, MrJay said:

I don't think it will be a factor. I keep being brought back to the "6 episodes". That isn't enough time to do anything at all. 

In the books it will be good. Jon will have to come to grips with it, his love for Daeny, and the state of the North. It will be a major plot point and bring with it its own problems. 

 

In the show, it's merely an excuse to put him on the throne as a king without people thinking it's out of left field. 

This. If you think the show will have interesting consequences, you haven't been paying attention.

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540 minutes are enough to pull a lord of the rings. The problem is they don't follow a narrative with one group and a mission. And even a Lord of the Rings only has 2 major battles and 2 minor battles. 

And I don't think they can pull of more than 2 large battles. And somehow Winterfell and King's Landing are already set for a final battle. If the battles will be minor or major I will not know. And with King's Landing in the picture there is simply not enough time for "a game of thrones" in the north.

 

Hopefully Jon resigns and the Bra(i)n in the North finally understands that he has a duty there. Or we get Sansa and the dwarf that was awesome once. I mean imagine Tyrion advising Sansa...

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2 hours ago, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

What do you think the reaction of the northern lords will be when they find out about his lineage. I don't think he will be KiTN for much longer, and this then throws the whole alliance into chaos. He wont want the iron throne and being 'unamed' will hurt him deep. How will they pull things together? The lords are bound to find out. Jon will feel obligated, but so distraught when he finds out about Ned not being his father, but also someone might reveal the secret to drive Jon and Dany apart.

If Jon is heir to the Iron Throne. Isn't he the heir to all the Kingdoms? The North would just be the start. He's a Stark child. Has there ever been a Stark descendent on the Iron Throne? I don't see why the North couldn't come around. 

Also Jon is no longer king anyway. According to HBO he's Warden of the North for Dany. 

Edited by King Jon Snow Stark

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I could've sworm we had one active topic about this very question already...

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Jon is still half Stark thru Lyanna. Plus after years of losses in battles and weddings, the Northern armies are decimated. When the Northern Lords get a look at the dragons and the Dothraki they'll know they could never beat them in battle in their current state and be happy to be on the same side. Dany's military strength alone should be more than enough to get them to understand Jon bending the knee.

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Jon isn't King in the North right now. He is the Warden in the North a position named by the Crown I believe. 

But I agree the northern lords won't have a big reaction it all and I think that for a few reasons. 

1) why would they announce it publicly until the war is over? By the time they announce it publicly there is a good chance Dany and Jon would have processed it and reached whatever agreement they reach 

2.) the show already laid the ground work for lords being sheep with Olena's dialogue. Sheep won't challenge Dragons. 

3.) probably not enough time to turn this into a subplot. 

4.) the lords in this show are not characters in any meaningful sense. They are just there to add some spice to whatever conflict is going on with the main characters so the real question is how will Sansa take the news. 

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Even if the Northern Lords wanted to get difficult ... the Wall has been breached, the dead are coming through, and Daenerys has an army of reinforcements to join them.

 

Besides, there's really only time for it to be an issue within the Stark family and with Daenerys.

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3 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Jon isn't King in the North right now. He is the Warden in the North a position named by the Crown I believe. 

But I agree the northern lords won't have a big reaction it all and I think that for a few reasons. 

1) why would they announce it publicly until the war is over? By the time they announce it publicly there is a good chance Dany and Jon would have processed it and reached whatever agreement they reach 

2.) the show already laid the ground work for lords being sheep with Olena's dialogue. Sheep won't challenge Dragons. 

3.) probably not enough time to turn this into a subplot. 

4.) the lords in this show are not characters in any meaningful sense. They are just there to add some spice to whatever conflict is going on with the main characters so the real question is how will Sansa take the news. 

Will Sansa have a problem if her brother marries the queen and ends up living in Kingslanding and Sansa ends up as warden?

Littlefinger pointed out the marriage possiblities. I don't see how it's against House Stark's interest to join their house officially to the ruling house. That was the plan in the beginning of the series now it's just Jon becoming a future consort instead is Sansa.

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The show will have the northerners dealing with other problems, such as WW, and won't pay attention to the whole Jon and KITN thing. It will be swept under the rug. At best we get a line of it explaining their upset-ness with it.

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3 hours ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Will Sansa have a problem if her brother marries the queen and ends up living in Kingslanding and Sansa ends up as warden?

Littlefinger pointed out the marriage possiblities. I don't see how it's against House Stark's interest to join their house officially to the ruling house. That was the plan in the beginning of the series now it's just Jon becoming a future consort instead is Sansa.

I don't think she will have a problem. Objectively speaking its the best thing for Sansa, House Stark and to put the country back together again. The north will be devastated in the fighting, they will need support from the rest of Westeros to rebuild. Not the best time to insist on independence. 

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8 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

I don't think she will have a problem. Objectively speaking its the best thing for Sansa, House Stark and to put the country back together again. The north will be devastated in the fighting, they will need support from the rest of Westeros to rebuild. Not the best time to insist on independence. 

Exactly the man closest to the queen is her older brother.

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On 9/12/2017 at 1:58 AM, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

What do you think the reaction of the northern lords will be when they find out about his lineage. I don't think he will be KiTN for much longer, and this then throws the whole alliance into chaos. He wont want the iron throne and being 'unamed' will hurt him deep. How will they pull things together? The lords are bound to find out. Jon will feel obligated, but so distraught when he finds out about Ned not being his father, but also someone might reveal the secret to drive Jon and Dany apart.

I think there is a chance the Northern Lords never find out about his lineage and the news is kept to a very close circle of people. 

This quote from AdWD lends support to that idea:

Tyrion Lannister had claimed that most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it, but Jon was done with denials. He was who he was; Jon Snow, bastard and oathbreaker, motherless, friendless, and damned. For the rest of his life—however long that might be—he would be condemned to be an outsider, the silent man standing in the shadows who dares not speak his true name. Wherever he might go throughout the Seven Kingdoms, he would need to live a lie, lest every man’s hand be raised against him.

EDIT: also there is a political question to consider. What marriage would better unite the Kingdoms when the war is over, a marriage between two Dragons or a marriage between the Dragon and the Wolf. Politically speaking I don't see how coming out with the news that he is Rhaegar's son helps the situation unless he wanted to make his own independent play for the throne which I doubt he does.

EDIT 2: Him keeping this secret would also finalize the parallel with him and Ned and keep his arc to one of being about what he has earned because of who he decided to be versus who he was born to be. Which @Beardy the Wildling would appreciate.

Edited by jcmontea

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I think the main purpose of R+L=J going public in the novels will not be how Jon deals with it, or how the North deals with it, but how Dany deals with it. In the show, that's going to be stripped down to one Dany-Tyrion discussion and one Dany-Jon discussion, because we can't see hundreds of pages of Dany's inner thoughts.

So, D&D could decide to expand one of the more minor repercussions into something bigger. But I don't think they're going to. Beyond those two discussions, all it's there for is to either justify Jon sitting on the throne at the end, or make it more tragic that they lost their Aragorn when Jon dies at the end.*

---

* But not John Dies at the End. A GRRM/David Wong crossover should obviously be with the sequel, This Book Is Full of Spiders.

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11 hours ago, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

what do you think dany reaction is going to be? BOOOM!!!! she is known for her temper!

But there's no one for her to be angry with here. And Jon won't want the throne, so it'll be hard for her to take it out on him.

The bigger deal is that, once the initial shock wears off, she has to rethink everything she believes. Her entire quest has been driven by her belief that her birthright gives her the unshakeable right to take the throne, an unavoidable duty to take the throne, and also an inevitable destiny to take the throne. But now she realizes she doesn't have that birthright.

Fortunately, along the way, she's learned a lot, she just hasn't internalized it. Her right, duty, and ability to take Meereen all had nothing to do with any birthright, and the same is true for Westeros. And until she realizes that and works out why she really should be queen, she shouldn't be queen. The R+L=J reveal will force her to realize it. (Or, if she doesn't actually have good enough reason to take Westeros without her birthright, it'll force her to realize that. But I doubt that's the direction the show or the books are going.)

Of course she's worked through that, of course, circumstances might make it no longer relevant. She might discover that she's pregnant, marry Jon, and reign jointly with him. Or he might die. But it will have mattered a great deal to get her to that point. So, learning Jon's identity will still be one of the most important things in her character arc.

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5 hours ago, falcotron said:

Fortunately, along the way, she's learned a lot, she just hasn't internalized it. Her right, duty, and ability to take Meereen all had nothing to do with any birthright, and the same is true for Westeros. And until she realizes that and works out why she really should be queen, she shouldn't be queen. The R+L=J reveal will force her to realize it. (Or, if she doesn't actually have good enough reason to take Westeros without her birthright, it'll force her to realize that. But I doubt that's the direction the show or the books are going.)

Very good point.
As Missandei put it: "She's not our queen because she's the daughter of some king we never knew. She's the queen we chose."
Daenerys just has to realize this for herself: People don't and won't follow her because she's Aerys daughter, they will follow her because of what she does or doesn't do. I'd say the show is pushing this narrative though: Jon didn't end up following her because she's Aerys daughter or the "rightful queen" either - he follows her because he too started to believe in her after seeing what she was capable of and willing to do, and this time she was humbled by it.

In echo of Missandei's quote, Jon could very well say something similar: "I didn't bend the knee and made her my queen because she's the daughter of Aerys. I bent the knee and made her my queen because she deserves it and I believe in her." 

 

Edited by MinscS2

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13 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Very good point.
As Missandei put it: "She's not our queen because she's the daughter of some king we never knew. She's the queen we chose."
Daenerys just has to realize this for herself: People don't and won't follow her because she's Aerys daughter, they will follow her because of what she does or doesn't do. I'd say the show is pushing this narrative though: Jon didn't end up following her because she's Aerys daughter or the "rightful queen" either - he follows her because he too started to believe in her after seeing what she was capable of and willing to do, and this time she was humbled by it.

In echo of Missandei's quote, Jon could very well say something similar: "I didn't bend the knee and made her my queen because she's the daughter of Aerys. I bent the knee and made her my queen because she deserves it and I believe in her." 

 

That scene might be one of my all time favorite scenes in the entire show.

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So do u think both of them will survive the war of the dawn and the series?  What I am going to do with myself for two years I haven't got a clue! 

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