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Jon & Dany, true identities ***UPDATING***


AlaskanSandman

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20 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

So this falls into the category of "ignoring what the text says". If something doesn't fit with your theory, it's either misinterpretation or an unreliable narrator. You're arguing that TPTWP didn't need to be from the line of both Aerys and Rhaella - based on what? What is in the books that makes you think the prophesy was misinterpreted?

I suspect that there isn't anything, but in order for a particular theory to work it needs to be true. That's not evidence and it's not much fun to discuss either, IMO.

Further more, please explain to me how Jon can full fill the prophecy as set down by the woods witch, but a child of Jon and Dany couldn't.

Do explain to me the difference? 

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10 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

Yea i was just curious if any one had any thoughts there. I mostly just link gold, silver hair both to the Empire of the dawn. The two houses merely having it as a throw back to their familial connection back in the dawn days

When Jon Arryn is standing at death's doorstep in a drug-induced, poisoned induced fever; he isn't talking about Robert's sperm count. He may have been investigating Robert's bastards (and who put him up to that, I wonder) but he isn't talking about the blue-eyed bastards in his fevered state. He's talking about the Stark kids and Jon, who is Robert's stark kid by Lyanna.

Lysa gets it wrong thinking that this is about her son; but we are only talking about one of Robert's bastards  Notice that when Jon Arryn grabs Lysa's arm; he repeats that gesture again with Luwin and Bran; when he tells Bran that he must be strong.

   

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25 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Further more, please explain to me how Jon can full fill the prophecy as set down by the woods witch, but a child of Jon and Dany couldn't.

Do explain to me the difference? 

I don't know what that has to do with anything I was saying, but so long as either Jon or Dany was from the line of Aerys and Rhaella (and they both are) then a child of Jon and Dany can certainly be TPTWP.

As for the "unreliable narrator" argument you've been using (along with "misinterpretation") - yes, George has admitted it, in some instances, and also that he has made continuity errors. But not everything in the books can be misdirection. Of course I don't believe that Jon is Ned's son, just because that's the accepted story in-universe. There are enough clues in the text to lead to R+L=J. I also don't believe Ned and Ashara were an item, even though the Dayne family seem to think they were. But again, there are clues that lead to another potential suitor for Ashara, the one who "dishonoured" her and whose death may have contributed to the grief that drove her to suicide.

Again, evidence isn't "well, it's not impossible". I need to see something in George's words.

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43 minutes ago, LynnS said:

When Jon Arryn is standing at death's doorstep in a drug-induced, poisoned induced fever; he isn't talking about Robert's sperm count. He may have been investigating Robert's bastards (and who put him up to that, I wonder) but he isn't talking about the blue-eyed bastards in his fevered state. He's talking about the Stark kids and Jon, who is Robert's stark kid by Lyanna.

Lysa gets it wrong thinking that this is about her son; but we are only talking about one of Robert's bastards  Notice that when Jon Arryn grabs Lysa's arm; he repeats that gesture again with Luwin and Bran; when he tells Bran that he must be strong.

   

Hmm, not sure what your implying here exactly. 

Brandon i've proven in my Op couldn't have fathered Jon or Dany. He simply died too soon. 

Eddard couldn't have fathered Jon as he was dealing with Gulltown then traveling North to rally his army, and couldn't have fathered Dany as that would involve him not being honorable and breaking his vows to Caitlynn, some thing i dont believe he ever did. These two though are definitely my opinion though based on how i perceive the characters and the events. Though Dany being the child of Eddard and Ashara, Ice and Fire would work on many levels and i do think Ashara is Dany's mother likely. I just dont think Eddard ever cheated on Caitlyn. I think Eddard fell in love with Ashara at Harrenhal, but then the war happened. Brandon was murdered, Eddard got caught up in the war, had to marry Caitlynn to win the war, then when he finally saw Ashara again to give her Arthurs sword and possibly make good on a promise to see her again, has to break the newd to Ashara of his marriage. Ashara has to break the news of her baby by a Targaryen to Eddard. Who then makes her give up her kid to protect her daughter from Roberts wrath, as Eddard is also having to help his sister with the same issue. Ashara may have gone into hiding as Quiathe or died. Dany went into protection but that got sabotaged by some one possibly. 

The only question i have is which Targaryen got Ashara Dayne with child. Hence why i present both options there as i can find nothing in the text yet to settle this issue as i feel i have with the other possibilities. 

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4 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

I don't know what that has to do with anything I was saying, but so long as either Jon or Dany was from the line of Aerys and Rhaella (and they both are) then a child of Jon and Dany can certainly be TPTWP.

As for the "unreliable narrator" argument you've been using (along with "misinterpretation") - yes, George has admitted it, in some instances, and also that he has made continuity errors. But not everything in the books can be misdirection. Of course I don't believe that Jon is Ned's son, just because that's the accepted story in-universe. There are enough clues in the text to lead to R+L=J. I also don't believe Ned and Ashara were an item, even though the Dayne family seem to think they were. But again, there are clues that lead to another potential suitor for Ashara, the one who "dishonoured" her and whose death may have contributed to the grief that drove her to suicide.

Again, evidence isn't "well, it's not impossible". I need to see something in George's words.

That's literally all the purpose of that passage is. To show that they misinterpreted it slightly and that it is still full filled and though the line(s) of Aerys and Rhaella. This is just some weird side tangent people are on that i dont understand. 

Im suggesting the PTWP is not Dany or Jon, but their child. That detail is covered further is my other threads though as this one ends with their time in hiding.......

As to the unreliable narrator bit was every bodies tangent on Line or lines (which literally changes nothinggggggg) and me simply arguing to argue that he still could've been misquoting and that Barristan is less that reliable for information on anything and proven by the text and the author that every one clings to so hard. 

Again with clinging to things. Well Jon being the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna is "not impossible" but as it's not clearly stated in the text i guess i should just rule that out. I dont get that logic, cause when you flip it, it looks ridiculous. The books literally only suggest Eddard and either the Fisher man's daughter, Wylla (which Eddard clearly say's it is so i guess we clearlyyyyyyy need to go by it), and Ashara Dayne. ( based on Jealous paranoid Cat and Cersei's hear say.). Well the Fisher man's daughter claims Eddard got her with child too so i guess Eddard has 3 babies momma's as clearlllyyyyyyyy stated by the text............

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24 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Hmm, not sure what your implying here exactly. 

Brandon i've proven in my Op couldn't have fathered Jon or Dany. He simply died too soon. 

Eddard couldn't have fathered Jon as he was dealing with Gulltown then traveling North to rally his army, and couldn't have fathered Dany as that would involve him not being honorable and breaking his vows to Caitlynn, some thing i dont believe he ever did. These two though are definitely my opinion though based on how i perceive the characters and the events. Though Dany being the child of Eddard and Ashara, Ice and Fire would work on many levels and i do think Ashara is Dany's mother likely. I just dont think Eddard ever cheated on Caitlyn. I think Eddard fell in love with Ashara at Harrenhal, but then the war happened. Brandon was murdered, Eddard got caught up in the war, had to marry Caitlynn to win the war, then when he finally saw Ashara again to give her Arthurs sword and possibly make good on a promise to see her again, has to break the new to Ashara of his marriage. Ashara has to break the news of her baby by a Targaryen to Eddard. Who then makes her give up her kid to protect her daughter from Roberts wrath, as Eddard is also having to help his sister with the same issure. Ashara may have gone into hiding as Quiathe or died. Dany went into protection but that got sabotaged by some one possibly. 

The only question i have is which Targaryen got Ashara Dayne with child. Hence why i present both options there as i can find nothing in the text yet to settle this issue as i feel i have with the other possibilities. 

It depends on the frame that is applied and the bias we're given right from the beginning in GoT.  If the assumption is that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna for the sake of prophecy is correct; then the timeline and backstory that is built around it is correct.  However, if Robert is Jon's father, then the assumptions about Rhaegar are not correct.  I think Jon Arryn's 'seed is strong' passage supports Robert as Jon's father.  But we are set-up with a bias right out of Robert's mouth that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna and that the seed is strong can only refer to blue-eyed black haired babies.  Why did Martin go to such trouble to exclude Robert immediately in the minds of readers?

Quote

When there is a single story, the frame story is used for other purposes – chiefly to position the reader's attitude toward the tale. One common one is to draw attention to the narrator's unreliability. By explicitly making the narrator a character within the frame story, the writer distances him or herself from the narrator; she or he may also characterize the narrator to cast doubt on the narrator's truthfulness. In P. G. Wodehouse's stories of Mr Mulliner, Mulliner is made a fisherman in order to cast doubt on the outrageous stories he tells. The movie Amadeus is framed as a story an old Antonio Salieri tells to a young priest, because the movie is based more on stories Salieri told about Mozart than on historical fact.

Another use is a form of procatalepsis, where the writer puts the readers' possible reactions to the story in the characters listening to it.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yea i was just curious if any one had any thoughts there. I mostly just link gold, silver hair both to the Empire of the dawn.

Just wait how it ends. I'm not sure if I actually found something or if the wiki is just super lazy and declares every hair silver that is not explicitly mentioned in the books as silver-something. GRRM definitly has silver-pale, silver-blond and silver-gold hair  as well as only silvery hair in his descriptions.

But we never get an eye witness to Aegon I. So either someone is super lazy somewhere or something is going on.

Aegon the Conqueror is mentioned in the wiki as "short-cut silver-gold hair". However Aegon V's father is only silver as well as Rhaegar although the book suggest Rhaegar to be silver-blond or silver-gold.

At this point I would not hold my hand in the fire for the wiki when it comes to Targaryen appearance description.

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5 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Just wait how it ends. I'm not sure if I actually found something or if the wiki is just super lazy and declares every hair silver that is not explicitly mentioned in the books as silver-something. GRRM definitly has silver-pale, silver-blond and silver-gold hair  as well as only silvery hair in his descriptions.

But we never get an eye witness to Aegon I. So either someone is super lazy somewhere or something is going on.

Aegon the Conqueror is mentioned in the wiki as "short-cut silver-gold hair". However Aegon V's father is only silver as well as Rhaegar although the book suggest Rhaegar to be silver-blond or silver-gold.

At this point I would not hold my hand in the fire for the wiki when it comes to Targaryen appearance description.

I seldom look to the wiki for anything. There's websites if you wanna pull quotes for anything from the books. it's pretty easy. 

The whole point of that was to illustrate that multiple Targs have hooked up with people who have  dark or brown hair that has played out differently among there children. Once even producing brown haired dragon riders. This all to the question of Jon's hair being brown and why.

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21 minutes ago, LynnS said:

It depends on the frame that is applied and the bias we're given right from the beginning in GoT.  If the assumption is that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna for the sake of prophecy is correct; then the timeline and backstory that is built around it is correct.  However, if Robert is Jon's father, then the assumptions about Rhaegar are not correct.  I think Jon Arryn's 'seed is strong' passage supports Robert as Jon's father.  But we are set-up with a bias right out of Robert's mouth that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna and that the seed is strong can only refer to blue-eyed black haired babies.  Why did Martin go to such trouble to exclude Robert immediately in the minds of readers?

 

 

Hmm, can't say i've ever heard Robert as a potential candidate. Interesting. Though i dont know why Eddard would hide his own kid from Robert. Even  if Robert was indifferent to his bastards

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3 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The whole point of that was to illustrate that multiple Targs have hooked up with people who have  dark or brown hair that has played out differently among there children. Once even producing brown haired dragon riders. This all to the question of Jon's hair being brown and why.

Well my argument started with Aegon V and the hair change as all black / silver-blond connections (including Drogo and vision Rhaego) afterwards ended with silver-blond as far as we know. Sadly I do not know the hair color of Elia. 

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7 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Hmm, can't say i've ever heard Robert as a potential candidate. Interesting. Though i dont know why Eddard would hide his own kid from Robert. Even  if Robert was indifferent to his bastards

Of course not.  He's taken off the list immediately.  I can think of plenty of reasons why Ned would hide Jon from Robert after Lyanna dies.  Chief among them is Cersei.   Jon must live to die another day. :D

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9 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Well my argument started with Aegon V and the hair change as all black / silver-blond connections (including Drogo and vision Rhaego) afterwards ended with silver-blond as far as we know. Sadly I do not know the hair color of Elia. 

Where are you going with your idea though? Does this connect to Dany and Jon or does this tie to other people? like other possible dragon seeds and such?

If so, as far as Elia idk. You may wanna look around the Martel line closely though.  Doran's mother being a lady in waiting to Rhaella, you know, the ones Aery's like to rape? Elia and Rhaegar obviously. Any possible tie or implication between Daenerys and Daemon Blackfyre. There is a good chance House Martell has dragon blood in their line given the Daenerys and Maron marriage at least. Plus the other two possibilities. I often wonder what was up with the love between Daenerys and Daemon, specially given the long amount of time between her marriage and when he rebelled. Making me wonder at any possibility they were able keep it going while she was married, at least up to a point. Closer to when he rebelled. Or if it really is just unrelated and people like to connect them to romanticize Daemon and his rebellion. 

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12 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Of course not.  He's taken off the list immediately.  I can think of plenty of reasons why Ned would hide Jon from Robert after Lyanna dies.  Chief among them is Cersei.   Jon must live to die another day. :D

Maybe. Cersei and Robert did wed in 284. You may have an argument on your hands if you can find some text stuff to help set up the scenario

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2 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Why would Robert whisper Lyanna during his wedding night ?

Because he was drunk.  Why does Cersei think she has to kill Jon and that Catelyn should have done in instead of leaving it up to her? Because Cersei has seen "Ned's" bastard at Winterfell at the banquet.  What was Jon doing?  Getting drunk like his father, Robert.

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12 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Why would Robert whisper Lyanna during his wedding night ?

What she said v

6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Because he was drunk.  Why does Cersei think she has to kill Jon and that Catelyn should have done in instead of leaving it up to her? Because Cersei has seen "Ned's" bastard at Winterfell at the banquet.  What was Jon doing?  Getting drunk like his father, Robert.

and that's pretty funny, i like the link though. Drunk buggers

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Ok, so i've structured some of the quotes around the Tower of Joy and still have some more to do for the actual war, and some quotes from the comment section mentioned that help show some of what's happening will be included. Still much to do to show every thing and cover all debates brought up but im creeping closer. After i fully structure the narrative through quotes, ill go through and write in all the important notes elaborating what im trying to explain through the quotes. Ill try and do that part all at once to save any confusion to people popping in and out of the thread. 

That being said. Nothing of my theory or OP has been redacted or changed. Everything is simply growing to accommodate all arguments and points to construct the most thorough thread i can covering the subject. I appreciate any and all interested and still following :) and especially all those who have taken the time to comment with their opinions. Even if they all are against me hahaha :)

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41 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Because he was drunk.  Why does Cersei think she has to kill Jon and that Catelyn should have done in instead of leaving it up to her? Because Cersei has seen "Ned's" bastard at Winterfell at the banquet.  What was Jon doing?  Getting drunk like his father, Robert.

You know I never realized that. It would be incredible funny if everyone was suspecting Ned to rebel for Jon Snow, while Ned was thinking he was removing Joeffrey for Stannis.

Then Cersei wants to kill him because the Night's Watch could join forces with Stannis. "Perhaps he will even thank me, before the blade slides between his ribs."  

And I find it even more funny that the next one in the small council that speaks to Cersei is ... Aurane Waters, the guy who looks like Rhaegar.

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12 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

You know I never realized that. It would be incredible funny if everyone was suspecting Ned to rebel for Jon Snow, while Ned was thinking he was removing Joeffrey for Stannis.

Then Cersei wants to kill him because the Night's Watch could join forces with Stannis. "Perhaps he will even thank me, before the blade slides between his ribs."  

And I find it even more funny that the next one in the small council that speaks to Cersei is ... Aurane Waters, the guy who looks like Rhaegar.

Martin has said that he wanted to write a story such that his mother couldn't figure out what was going on.  He wants to surprise and delight his readers.  Well, I'm surprised. 

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Just some main points:

A PoV being an unreliable narrator doesn't  automatically make every bit of information unreliable. It means that the information must be compared to other PoVs, and especially, what is being said must be compared with people's actions and/or inner monologue, if available. Whatever the Woods' Witch's prophecy was, it is a reasonable assumption that Aegon actually paid some thought to what he was doing and why, and since he had the source of the prophecy right at hand, the information could be discussed in quite some detail. And since under these circumstances he believed it was imperative that Aerys and Rhaella marry and procreate, the prophecy apparently was not vague or ambiguous in this respect, and thus Barristan's account of the phrasing is verified.

Also, comparing the information and characters' actions is what rules out the explicitely stated options of Ashara, Wylla and FMD as Jon's mother: they don't fit with what we know about Ned, and what he thinks about Lyanna, blue roses, Rhaegar and the KG at ToJ doesn't fit with the rape scenario. 

And that's also how we can trace when GRRM is up to something: bits of information create patterns which either fit, or contradict, but there is always a trail of breadcrumbs that can be followed, we are never left in a vacuum of "possible but never stated in any way".

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