Jon & Dany, true identities ***UPDATING***

[AlaskanSandman]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Just some main points:

A PoV being an unreliable narrator doesn't  automatically make every bit of information unreliable. It means that the information must be compared to other PoVs, and especially, what is being said must be compared with people's actions and/or inner monologue, if available. Whatever the Woods' Witch's prophecy was, it is a reasonable assumption that Aegon actually paid some thought to what he was doing and why, and since he had the source of the prophecy right at hand, the information could be discussed in quite some detail. And since under these circumstances he believed it was imperative that Aerys and Rhaella marry and procreate, the prophecy apparently was not vague or ambiguous in this respect, and thus Barristan's account of the phrasing is verified.

Also, comparing the information and characters' actions is what rules out the explicitely stated options of Ashara, Wylla and FMD as Jon's mother: they don't fit with what we know about Ned, and what he thinks about Lyanna, blue roses, Rhaegar and the KG at ToJ doesn't fit with the rape scenario. 

And that's also how we can trace when GRRM is up to something: bits of information create patterns which either fit, or contradict, but there is always a trail of breadcrumbs that can be followed, we are never left in a vacuum of "possible but never stated in any way".

Every thing you said is opinion and i have seen no info that backs your opinion. 

Again. Let me put it like this. Do explain to me how the prophecy can be full filled by Dany or Jon but not a child of theirs?

And what is it about Ned that we apparently know that i havn't stated. About Ned being honorable?????? Cause hooking up with Ashara or any one behind Cat's back ins't honorable and that's exactly what Eddard say's he did. You can come up with stories about him doing it before, but he clearly say's he cheated on her. So yea, write me a theory about how thats true. Oh Ned would lie about when he slept with some one to make him self look worse? Where's the logic in that? If i hear Brandon as an option i may never come back to this forum again. So either Eddard cheated with Wylla or Ashara on Cat. Cause that's the only other option based on the text. Cause Jon was born to early in the year for Eddard to have fathered him. And that's literally the only father the book presents other than making some logical leaps for Rhaegar. 

Yet if Rhaegar is the father of Jon and that's the child that Eddard got from the Tower of Joy, then what's up with Ashara's baby that Eddard is accused of stealing? The one we dont hear anything else about till the 5th book when unreliable Barristan claims the child had been still born.I have sat and listened to every one and their thoughts, yet no one can give me a clear explanation around these facts in the book. 

So what bread crumbs and out come are you alluding to?

Doubt me? Seriously go back and look. Look at all the quotes ive already structured. Im not done yet, but i've already posted enough that should squash Brandon, and Eddard has said enough along with the other facts to squash the rest. Every thing else is just wishful thinking.

Only these options exist.

Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna

Dany is the Child of Aerys and Rhaella

Dany is the child of Aerys and Ashara

Dany is the child of Rhaegar and Ashara. 

Literally only possibilities there is. 

Non-existent possibilities. 

Wylla, Ashara, or Fisherman's daughter and Eddard= either Dany or Jon

Ashara and Brandon= Dany or Jon

Arguing for either of those is clearly ignoring the clues and going with wishful thinking IMO

[maudisdottir]

You're not making any sense. I 100% agree with what Ygrain says but your reply is baffling.

[AlaskanSandman]

52 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

You're not making any sense. I 100% agree with what Ygrain says but your reply is baffling.

What part confuses you? The part about Eddard and his honor and the implausibility of him fathering anyone other than his known kids? Or all the facts laid out after like the conflict in Neds lie? Or the non sense you guys are saying about the prophecy? Or Barristan as a reliable narrator? Or how Brandon died to soon to father any one? 

[maudisdottir]

For starters you accused me and then Ygrain of claiming that Jon and Dany's kid can't be TPTWP (or can be, still not following your point) when I never said anything remotely like that.

Youre also arguing that because Barristan may be vague about certain memories we should totally disregard everything he says. That's ridiculous. Barristan is a POV character so can we dismiss every single thing he says or witnesses? That's not the book I'm reading.

And it was Aegon V and Jaeherys II who arranged for Aerys and Rhaella to be married against their will - or is Barristan making that up too?

Just so we're clear, I believe Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon, Aerys + Rhaella = Dany, and Ashara + Brandon = stillborn baby or possibly Allyria Dayne. Ashara never had the slightest interest in Ned romantically, only as a dance partner and all round nice guy.

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, maudisdottir said:

For starters you accused me and then Ygrain of claiming that Jon and Dany's kid can't be TPTWP (or can be, still not following your point) when I never said anything remotely like that.

Youre also arguing that because Barristan may be vague about certain memories we should totally disregard everything he says. That's ridiculous. Barristan is a POV character so can we dismiss every single thing he says or witnesses? That's not the book I'm reading.

And it was Aegon V and Jaeherys II who arranged for Aerys and Rhaella to be married against their will - or is Barristan making that up too?

Just so we're clear, I believe Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon, Aerys + Rhaella = Dany, and Ashara + Brandon = stillborn baby or possibly Allyria Dayne. Ashara never had the slightest interest in Ned romantically, only as a dance partner and all round nice guy.

What she said.

I might add a GRRM quote about Brandon dying before he had sons, which leaves open a possibility of a daughter (or perhaps even a posthumous son).

[AlaskanSandman]

6 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

For starters you accused me and then Ygrain of claiming that Jon and Dany's kid can't be TPTWP (or can be, still not following your point) when I never said anything remotely like that.

Youre also arguing that because Barristan may be vague about certain memories we should totally disregard everything he says. That's ridiculous. Barristan is a POV character so can we dismiss every single thing he says or witnesses? That's not the book I'm reading.

And it was Aegon V and Jaeherys II who arranged for Aerys and Rhaella to be married against their will - or is Barristan making that up too?

Just so we're clear, I believe Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon, Aerys + Rhaella = Dany, and Ashara + Brandon = stillborn baby or possibly Allyria Dayne. Ashara never had the slightest interest in Ned romantically, only as a dance partner and all round nice guy.

Well yes, that's the whole point of the PTWP section. To imply a misinterpretation by Aegon and Jaeherys, and imply a possible verbatim slip on Barristans part. All the while trying to argue that no matter how you wanna read the prophecy, it can be full filled by either means. Which is my argument again, that they possibly misinterpreted it. That is all. To split hairs with me over line or lines changes nothing is my point and or you must believe the outcome can not be achieved by said method i proposed. Not even a big part of my theory but simply an anecdote of information regarding the in world characters actions and possible motives. Its up to the readers of the post to decide the importance of all the information and quotes at hand. I just think it would be poor of me to not include everything into this post that pertains to the given subject. 

As such there is a lot of information and i hope i have reorganized the OP to be easier to go through. Im still not done and much to do, but the structure i hope will help.

For the record i enjoy debating with you guys

[AlaskanSandman]

Ok, technically the whole line lines thing came in when i spoke of the quote but accidentally used lines instead of line. Which i simply went on to argue from multiple angles. The main one being that it changes nothing. The other being it could have been a verbatim slip on his part as it was on mine.

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well yes, that's the whole point of the PTWP section. To imply a misinterpretation by Aegon and Jaeherys, and imply a possible verbatim slip on Barristans part. All the while trying to argue that no matter how you wanna read the prophecy, it can be full filled by either means. Which is my argument again, that they possibly misinterpreted it. That is all. To split hairs with me over line or lines changes nothing is my point and or you must believe the outcome can not be achieved by said method i proposed. Not even a big part of my theory but simply an anecdote of information regarding the in world characters actions and possible motives. Its up to the readers of the post to decide the importance of all the information and quotes at hand. I just think it would be poor of me to not include everything into this post that pertains to the given subject. 

As such there is a lot of information and i hope i have reorganized the OP to be easier to go through. Im still not done and much to do, but the structure i hope will help.

For the record i enjoy debating with you guys

Well, misinterpretations and slips are certainly possible but when a character's report is supported by other character's actions, I don't think the possibility of one goes beyond mere technicality just for the sake of covering all the possibilities. Jon and Dany are from the line of Aerys and Rhaella, anyway, so why include a possibility if it doesn't change a thing and requires actions which are in no way supported by the text?

[WSmith84]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it Jaehaerys who arranged the marriage between his children, with Aegon actually being against it (but still permitting it)?

[AlaskanSandman]

9 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Well, misinterpretations and slips are certainly possible but when a character's report is supported by other character's actions, I don't think the possibility of one goes beyond mere technicality just for the sake of covering all the possibilities. Jon and Dany are from the line of Aerys and Rhaella, anyway, so why include a possibility if it doesn't change a thing and requires actions which are in no way supported by the text?

Because it's the set up that even Dany asks about. The reader wonders about. So i included with the info, so people can decide on their own who full fills it. It's part of the story though and i feel i should be included. TPTWP is what drove Rhaegar and should fairly be included.

Again, that's your opinion. Im not done yet, so when im done ill be able to cover everything more effectively.

Simply put though we have 4 accusations regarding Ashara and Eddard. Only 4.

Cat- Eddard and Ashara hooked up and had Jon

Cersei- Eddard killed Arthur and took Ashara's child, so she killed herself.

Edric-   Eddard broke Ashara's heart by fathering Jon on Wylla.

Barristan- Ashara killed herself over her still born child, and the man who dishonored her at Harrenhal. No mention or hate for Eddard. 

Ned- Claims he fathered Jon with Wylla after he was already married.

 

Literally Ned say's it's Wylla and Edric and Allyria confirm that Ashara killed her self over this.

Ned is blatantly lying as Jon was born around summer of 283Ac and Eddard wed Cat no later than march of 283AC. Jon is not Eddard through cheating on Cat with Wylla. So why make up the lie and why is House Dayne telling the same story?

and Who fathered this kid on Ashara?    Some one in the thread mentions Brandon and the child was still born. That's a fair thought. Only good one i've heard honestly. This is why though i want to include all textual evidence for people to decide for them selves. IMO the truth is in those accounts, specifically Cersei's and Eddard's response to her. The onlyyyyy time we see how Eddard might feel regarding any of this.

What does Ned think? 

The children. Saving the children. That is literally all Eddard is about.

It's clear from the text that Eddard liked Ashara. It's clear Eddard was not happy about having to marry Cat to win the war. It's clear that Ashara was heart broken at Eddard killing her brother, whether it was self defense or not. 

Did she have a living child or stillborn child and when did she have it is more the questions to be asking IMO. especially given the Eddard/Cersei conversation.

 

Edit- Lets not forget Edric is named for Eddard. So why? If Jon's not hers. What did he do for House Dayne? He hid her child after her death or disappearance. It seems to me the only possibility left. 

Edit- Oh, combine in the song Arya hears that may be about Ashara, and we now have the missing piece from the puzzle. The man who dishonored her at Harrenhal that she killed herself over the loss of was a prince.

The only princes are the princes's of Dorne, and Prince Rhaegar.

The only two who died are Prince Rhaegar and Prince Lewyn Martell (who is known to have a mistress)

Lewyn kinda old though so i doubt him, but hey, could be i guess. 

Most likely option for man who dishonored her at Harrenhal and potential father of her kid by these accounts alone is Rhaegar.

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, WSmith84 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it Jaehaerys who arranged the marriage between his children, with Aegon actually being against it (but still permitting it)?

True

[maudisdottir]

^Yes that is true, it was Jaeherys who believed the woods witch but Aegon didn't stop them, which he could have done as King. He allowed the wedding to go ahead, according to the World Book "washed his hands of it in frustration, letting the prince have his way".

And we don't know that Edric Dayne was named for Ned. Just because they're both nicknamed Ned doesn't mean the Daynes were honouring Eddard somehow. It's possible, but it doesn't say so in the text. That's just speculation that people now accept as canon.

[AlaskanSandman]

11 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

^Yes that is true, it was Jaeherys who believed the woods witch but Aegon didn't stop them, which he could have done as King. He allowed the wedding to go ahead, according to the World Book "washed his hands of it in frustration, letting the prince have his way".

And we don't know that Edric Dayne was named for Ned. Just because they're both nicknamed Ned doesn't mean the Daynes were honouring Eddard somehow. It's possible, but it doesn't say so in the text. That's just speculation that people now accept as canon.

True, based on similarities in the name combined with Edric's excitement at meeting Eddard at the Hands Tourney, though he never finds anything to say to him. Clearly House Dayne doesn't seem to harbor ill feelings and even seem to talk highly of Eddard as Edric was excited to meet the man who killed his uncle and supposedly broke Ashara's heart and cheated on her.

[maudisdottir]

^I saw a comment you made in the Dayne/Valyrian thread but I didn't want to take that thread off topic.

I've seen you state a couple of times that, apart from Lyanna crying when Rhaegar played the harp, there is nothing to indicate she loved him. However, Ned mentions that she was still clinging to the blue rose petals, which were dead and black (which would imply that she kept them for a long time) and only let them go as she died. I can't imagine she would treasure his crown of blue roses if she didn't love him.

[AlaskanSandman]

2 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

^I saw a comment you made in the Dayne/Valyrian thread but I didn't want to take that thread off topic.

I've seen you state a couple of times that, apart from Lyanna crying when Rhaegar played the harp, there is nothing to indicate she loved him. However, Ned mentions that she was still clinging to the blue rose petals, which were dead and black (which would imply that she kept them for a long time) and only let them go as she died. I can't imagine she would treasure his crown of blue roses if she didn't love him.

 

Roses dont last that long cut. Your talking over a year away from when she got those.

It doesn't actually state that. It mention's blue roses blowing in the wind or something.

 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death

 

 

It's a vague fever dream Ned had but still doesn't state her clinging to the roses. Unless theres a quote im missing? The blue roses being mentioned though still can give the indication you speak of to some readers though. It's still a leap of logic though not clearly stated in the text. This is why im structuring the narrative through quotes, cause even i've miss quoted things before. Im all for leaps of logic though. That's what a detective would have to do or a historian. If we just go off people's word and the text then we'll be lost. Cause the text counters it self even at times, leaving you no choice but to choose which you believe to be more true. Sometimes there is text to help back the story, sometimes, not so much.

What im proposing about Ashara Dayne is not far fetched though, no more far fetched than Lyanna and Rhaegar. Only difference is that the Jon mystery is made much more aware to the reader (Lyanna and Rhaegar as parents is the reach), while Dany and Ashara are more subtle..

I think i've done alot to try to show this. Both by the actions of the time, the accusations made later, and the fact that the known actions of the time or knowledge of the person now contradicts facts told. Like Eddard and Wylla after he wed Cat. We knowwwww this cant be true. We know it. Its a lie. Either Eddard would have fathered Jon on her before he was wed or not at all with Wylla.

Im not done yet though and greatly apologize for that. This has proved bigger than originally planned, but seems necessary to cover everything needed and all points or arguments made. 

I just hope that people coming in after it's done will be able to find all the information needed to help them build their own opinion, even if it differs. The narrative through quotes though should hopefully be helpful as it's not my opinion at all and i try to include counter statements made to be fair to all angles.

In the end this thread will be less about just my own theory and hopefully more of an information board surrounding all facts. Some theories i think are eliminated by the Narrative of Quotes, but that was hopefully to be expected. Widdling us down to the true possible options. Which, for some will just be about Jon and the mystery stops there, for others, the hole goes deeper.

[AlaskanSandman]

If there are any quotes surrounding the war or anything pertaining to the time line in question, please let me know. Also, any other quotes or clues regarding Dany are welcome. 

Im still debating on including her "time" at Dragonstone up to present  in this thread as another hidden tab. This way all information is available on one thread, but also this way, i can keep the thread from being too daunting to read through as this is a lot of information and would stretch on through many post as other threads have. Id like to prevent that and just include a Table of Contents at the start to make going through it and or referencing it easier. I really do hope any one checking this thread out either finds it greatly helpful, insightful, and or at least organized as heck haha.

[maudisdottir]

Quote

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.

And this one wasn't a fever dream. Ned was wide awake and talking to Robert.

[AlaskanSandman]

20 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

And this one wasn't a fever dream. Ned was wide awake and talking to Robert.

Ahhh nice.

Still, best and only clue. The bulk of the evidence is built around Eddard being Jon's father. You have to do time calculations, logical leaps of reason, and deductions through the tales told and the discrepancies with in them. I obviously believe Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, just saying for everyone clinging to only things out right stated in the text, that even Rhaegar and Lyanna is not out right stated in the text. It's all in the little clues. Even you quote alone isn't enough to prove Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, you need all the other circumstantial evidence to make a case.

This is what i believe i have done. Through just quotes in the text, and quotes of Martin, shown that there is room to believe Dany is the child of Ashara Dayne by a Targ. Eddard only fathered his 5 kids and was honorable to Cat. 

[AlaskanSandman]

On 9/20/2017 at 6:53 AM, Ygrain said:

Well, misinterpretations and slips are certainly possible but when a character's report is supported by other character's actions, I don't think the possibility of one goes beyond mere technicality just for the sake of covering all the possibilities. Jon and Dany are from the line of Aerys and Rhaella, anyway, so why include a possibility if it doesn't change a thing and requires actions which are in no way supported by the text?

If you can find that quote from Martin about Ashara not being at K.L. during the sack i would still appreciate it and may help. If you can find it, it may lend to the idea of her being there, but having left, like Rhaella, right before the sack. 

[AlaskanSandman]

40 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

And this one wasn't a fever dream. Ned was wide awake and talking to Robert.

Ill include this under the Tower of Joy quotes, thank you