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Jon & Dany, true identities ***UPDATING***


AlaskanSandman

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9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Ahhh nice.

Still, best and only clue. The bulk of the evidence is built around Eddard being Jon's father. You have to do time calculations, logical leaps of reason, and deductions through the tales told and the discrepancies with in them. I obviously believe Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, just saying for everyone clinging to only things out right stated in the text, that even Rhaegar and Lyanna is not out right stated in the text. It's all in the little clues. Even you quote alone isn't enough to prove Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, you need all the other circumstantial evidence to make a case.

This is what i believe i have done. Through just quotes in the text, and quotes of Martin, shown that there is room to believe Dany is the child of Ashara Dayne by a Targ. Eddard only fathered his 5 kids and was honorable to Cat. 

No, now it's one of two clues, along with crying at Rhaegar's song. As well as other hints about Lyanna's character and wilful nature, we know that she had a mind of her own.

It seems that no matter what evidence is presented from the actual texts you disregard it as not significant, but your own theories are based on what's not in the books. It's just going around in circles because you still haven't shown any clues that Dany isn't the child of Aerys and Rhaella, born on Dragonstone nine moons or so after the Sack of KL.

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44 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

No, now it's one of two clues, along with crying at Rhaegar's song. As well as other hints about Lyanna's character and wilful nature, we know that she had a mind of her own.

It seems that no matter what evidence is presented from the actual texts you disregard it as not significant, but your own theories are based on what's not in the books. It's just going around in circles because you still haven't shown any clues that Dany isn't the child of Aerys and Rhaella, born on Dragonstone nine moons or so after the Sack of KL.

You are going in circles, thank you.

Those are still two circumstantial clues and nothing out right. This is silly. Now we wanna debate the clues on Lyanna? Way off topic.

And what evidence am i disregarding from the text?????? You dont agree, then move along. Im not here to convince you buddy. I can sleep at night if you never see it and never agree.

And do some math, Dany wasn't conceived a month before the sack of K.L. and born 9 moons later. That'd make her 10 months old at birth. It took Eddard 2 weeks to come down from the Trident, means it took Rhaegar at least 2 weeks to get up to the Trident. Aery's rape happened before Rhaegar left.

Information on her summer storm being terrible doesn't line up with autumn storms being more constant while Winter ones are the worst? Targarayen fleet was destroyed at anchorage yet, Darry's boat was ok? Storm so bad it wrecked Dragonstone but didn't hurt the fleet at K.L.? The same Dragonstone and Braavos that doesn't have Lemon Tree's or a Red Door (Stop, Matin has already brought fan's attention to this hinting that they're in the right direction), the fact that Dany speaks High Valyrian and Viserys cant even seem to speak bastard Valyrian, the fact that Dany's memories contradict what Viserys tells her. The fact that Visery's tale differs from Jamies.

There have been many clues laid out, some of which are covered under her later years, not covered here. Either way, again, im ok if you disagree though. 

You act like fact''s regarding Lyanna and Rhaegar were just so obvious, but it wasn't and i seriously doubt you figured it out with out seeing a forum talk about R+L=J.  Even the lead in post shows Elio and Linda unsure for awhile about Rhaegar and Lyanna. But sure, you must have been the only one here seeing those oh so obvious clues. Please, i dont buy it. I bet the original poster of that theory got a ration of argument's just like these. 

 The idea of Dany not being who she thinks she is does not start with me either. This is an old idea alottttt of people have. Whether you see it or not, im in no way reaching. 

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ARRRRGGGGGGGG

ok, i just wasted an hour trying to update the post just to have it get deleted. Will take me a min to redo.

That being said, as a side note, it just struck me that the Ser Willem Darry Dany remembers may actually be Illyrio or Varys. Though id guess Illyrio judging by his weight and stink. This is all evidence that helps figure Dany out, so i wanna include everything. 

The idea though is that Dany describes Darry's hands as soft. Yet he's the master at arms and the book is full of quotes illustrating how rough his hands should be. 

In fact the only hands described as soft are Maesters and Varys. Yet the putrid stink about Illyrio and Darry makes me suspect Illyrio. 

Ill include this all with notes and quotes. Along with everthing else that calls into question what Dany knows about her past

 

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Look I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue, rather than throwing a whole lot of stuff out there and seeing what sticks. I was just pointing out another quote you'd forgotten or ignored. I've seen these things argued a hundred times and no evidence has been enough to convince me.

And FWIW no, I had no idea about R+L=J and I had already seen the first two seasons of the show before I read the books. I knew something was up with Jon's mother but there was so much to absorb that I lost the thread somewhere around AFFC and found out about Jon's parents on this forum and on reddit. After multiple re-reads the clues are right there and I see it clearly, but I still needed it spelled out for me.

I did, however, pick up on my first read-through that the mystery of Ashara had to do with Brandon and not Ned, or at least not until towards the end. She may have had something to do with the TOJ (Wylla?) but I don't believe there were any baby swaps involving Dany, or Aerys raping Ashara. Nor do I think Ashara was helping out by breeding a spare PTWP with Rhaegar (just in case Lyanna's one turned out to be a dud).

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1 hour ago, maudisdottir said:

Look I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue, rather than throwing a whole lot of stuff out there and seeing what sticks. I was just pointing out another quote you'd forgotten or ignored. I've seen these things argued a hundred times and no evidence has been enough to convince me.

And FWIW no, I had no idea about R+L=J and I had already seen the first two seasons of the show before I read the books. I knew something was up with Jon's mother but there was so much to absorb that I lost the thread somewhere around AFFC and found out about Jon's parents on this forum and on reddit. After multiple re-reads the clues are right there and I see it clearly, but I still needed it spelled out for me.

I did, however, pick up on my first read-through that the mystery of Ashara had to do with Brandon and not Ned, or at least not until towards the end. She may have had something to do with the TOJ (Wylla?) but I don't believe there were any baby swaps involving Dany, or Aerys raping Ashara. Nor do I think Ashara was helping out by breeding a spare PTWP with Rhaegar (just in case Lyanna's one turned out to be a dud).

Hahah i read my other response and it sounded so snarky haha Im sorry, did not mean to come off that way. I think i was just frustrated with my posting acting up and erasing :/

Well Im trying to argue that Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna and that Dany is the child of either Rhaegar or Aerys. While not fully settled on which Targ did the deed. Hence why i try to present both options of Rhaegar or Aerys. The bit about Lyanna was just an argument made by me that the Rhaegar and Lyanna bit wasn't out right stated in the books either and that you have to connect the clues to come to it. Other wise, the book only clearly presents Eddard and the possible mothers by him. The Ashara point im trying to illustrate is no more reaching than Lyanna and Rhaegar as i feel the text clearly lays enough clues to show Dany is not who she thinks she is. That Ashara Dayne is her mother as shown by the clues im trying to lay out. 

The mystery of Jon i think is just made much more aware cause of his situation as the bastard of Winterfell. Dany's is much more subtle but still there. 

Yea that's about like me too. I watched the first two seasons, read the books, but lost all the clues in the over whelming amount of information. Had to see forums and theory videos and even then i had to do the math and research my self to verify what they were saying.

See, i see that alot. Alot of people seem to have gotten that impression and i dont blame them honestly. It's just, when i laid out the clues about Jon, it illuminated Brandon completely from the picture. Which i have actually shown in this thread but havnt added in my side notes to point it out yet. I tried and it erased everything i did. 

When i first read the books, the bit about Ashara and Dany jumped out at me right away but i couldn't place it or explain it. It wasn't until i broke down the dates and saw that Brandon couldn't father any one. And that up till book 5, all we knew about Ashara was that she killed her self and she had a child. Didn't even know male or female. It wasn't untill book 5 that Martin makes you question it with Barristan's thoughts about her child being a daughter that was still born. Pointing closer to Dany with the daughter bit, but away by accusing the child as being still born.

Eddard is too honorable to have cheated IMO. So thus his lie to Catelyn about fathering Jon on Wylla after they wed (Backed up by Edric's tale that Eddard broke Ashara's heart by fathering Jon on Wylla) is all a big lie. Both sides. Because we know that Eddard got Jon from Lyanna and Jon was born to soon after wedding Cat to have made Eddards lie true. Neither Ned's or Edric's tale mentions Ashara's child either. Why?? They're hiding it from the tale? Why? They're hiding it. They're trying to hide the fact that Ashara did have a child. Which makes me wonder where Barristan heard that it was still born. Ned's lie unnecessarily paints him as an undultress. Why??? Because Ned needed Cat to believe Jon was younger than Robb. 

I know it's alot to construct given the multiple stories we have. The dates help lock all of it in though. When Jon was being conceived, Ned was in the North raising his banners. When Dany was being conceived, Ned was riding to the trident then down to K.L. Aerys and Rhaegar were both in K.L. around that time. Yes Rhaella was there, but look at my opening quote from GRRM. Ashara may have been at K.L. at the time too. Making it very possible. As to the accounts of Dragonstone and all of that? Im putting all that information in this thread now too just to complete the whole picture. I show that not only are the clues in all the books, but they're all right there in the first book all along. 

 

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A quick shout out to a couple other threads i have found that bring up good points i have included. They also make their argument from different positions and wording. Im not a member of these boards so this is the best shout out i can do.

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