Jon & Dany, true identities ***UPDATING***

[Ygrain]

On 15. 9. 2017 at 1:37 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Well id disagree still. Though it mostly seems legit. There's still a window of chance. Unless Jamie actually saw them enter the room. Which the text doesn't state. In fact it states  that he never saw her after, except for the hooded woman. So he's going on accounts from her hand maidens. Long shot sure, but still a chance they purposefully fooled him. Slim though. When constructing things though, i like to give all possible angles with in the narrative ive laid out. As such, my narrative cant account for theories of Lyanna being in Winterfell and such and hard to give mention to such ideas that depend on their own drawn out thesis.

Well, so be it, but I can't see any legit reason for Ashara to be in Rhaella's bedroom at a night hour, so secretly that no-one would know about it, and that Rhaella would let Ashara be raped without uttering any louder sound that could be heard outside.

On 15. 9. 2017 at 1:37 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

I think it's Rhaegar as Dany see's herself as Rhaegar even, but that's where the evidence takes me. 

Yes i know Ned thinks that to him self. He also says that he and Howland pulled the tower down to make the cairns. With what though? Have you ever tried demolition? Even if they had sledge hammers that would be hard. He get lucky and there was wild fire there? See all of that depends on coming up with scenarios not stated in the text either. All i can do is go off the text.

Why wildfire? Even stone structures have wooden infrastructure which can be put to torch, which then weakens the masonry. There would also be at least seven horses to pull, if any ropes could be found. Add to it that the structure

On 15. 9. 2017 at 1:37 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

I cant spend all my time looking for off handed comments George says at interviews that are semi-canon and not actually canon untill he puts it in the books. Meaning he can change it at any time or lie. Elio and Linda have brought this up before. I link is still nice and helpful, but hardly gold either. 

I'd step very carefully here. Accusing someone of lying is highly disrespectful, especially an author on a site dedicated to his work, when he himself stated"I'm no liar". Also, why would he lie when he can say just "keep reading". (Not to mention that if you need the author to lie so that a theory would be valid, it says a lot about the weight of the theory.)

As for changing things, that can indeed happen - originally, there was supposed to be about a year between the HH tourney and Lyanna's disappearance, but the world book seems to have condensed that time period. However, this is, more or less, a detail. Basic premises cannot be changed without seriously affecting what has already been written, because that would make the already existing clues a lie, and that's what GRRm said he wouldn't do.

On 15. 9. 2017 at 1:37 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

That whole last bit falls apart with the fact that Aegon was born before Harrenhal. After Harrenhal, Rhaegar runs off to kidnap Lyanna. There is literally next to no time for Rhaegar to go all the way back to Dragonstone then come all the way back to the Riverlands. Especially since Aegon was born in 281, and the Tourney happened in the Last Month or two of 281. Elia that close to birthing wouldnt have made the trip to Harrenhal and back to Dragonstone. Why even risk that on you wife and child? Aegon had to have been born before the Tourney. Which sets up Rhaegars motivations with Lyanna, and IMO Ashara before Lyanna. Any child born from Harrenhal would be born in sept of 282 at the latest. 

As I said above, the whole timing seems to have shifted somewhat, but Aegon was definitely not born pre-HH, or else he wouldn't be about a year or so old at the Sack. Not sure why GRRM had Elia travel while pregnant, or if he took such things into account, but given that Aegon's birth nearly killed her, she wouldn't be able to attend the tourney at all.

On 15. 9. 2017 at 2:21 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

To be clear, Dany and Jon's parentage and how it effects the stories end, i think may have only a small part to do with it. 

So far i ultimately think that the Others are seeking to break the curse against them to become human again. I think the Others were born of the Night's King and the Corpse Queen who may both be dead. The Others need to warg a human, to mate with a live woman, possibly of a specific bloodline. Through this his spirit with be bound to a mortal human form again. Which i think he gave his seed and soul to her, and got trapped in these Other bodies. 

So Jon and Dany's abilities may be all he needs of them. The whole prince that was promised bit is a lie, to get the die rolling. Which is why we the readers and the in world characters are so confused and can find meaning in almost any of it. Neither Jon or Dany is the prophesied prince. If any one is, it'll be their baby. 

Jon dies, is reanimated like the army of the Dead and Cold Hands, (By who? Who's controlling him with access to his memories?), then uses his body to mate with Dany. Allowing who ever is warging Jon, to put his seed and spirit into Dany and her child. Who will be "Never Born"

That's an interesting take. Too little is known about the Others, but there is a curious parallel between the pale woman and Melisandre, in appearance and in what they wanted from men. Melisandre wanted the seed to produce shadow babies; the pale woman might have produced "white shadows".

Add to it

Spoiler

Euron's non-human female consort with pale flame in her hands, and things might get really interesting.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

14 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Well, so be it, but I can't see any legit reason for Ashara to be in Rhaella's bedroom at a night hour, so secretly that no-one would know about it, and that Rhaella would let Ashara be raped without uttering any louder sound that could be heard outside.

Why wildfire? Even stone structures have wooden infrastructure which can be put to torch, which then weakens the masonry. There would also be at least seven horses to pull, if any ropes could be found. Add to it that the structure

I'd step very carefully here. Accusing someone of lying is highly disrespectful, especially an author on a site dedicated to his work, when he himself stated"I'm no liar". Also, why would he lie when he can say just "keep reading". (Not to mention that if you need the author to lie so that a theory would be valid, it says a lot about the weight of the theory.)

As for changing things, that can indeed happen - originally, there was supposed to be about a year between the HH tourney and Lyanna's disappearance, but the world book seems to have condensed that time period. However, this is, more or less, a detail. Basic premises cannot be changed without seriously affecting what has already been written, because that would make the already existing clues a lie, and that's what GRRm said he wouldn't do.

As I said above, the whole timing seems to have shifted somewhat, but Aegon was definitely not born pre-HH, or else he wouldn't be about a year or so old at the Sack. Not sure why GRRM had Elia travel while pregnant, or if he took such things into account, but given that Aegon's birth nearly killed her, she wouldn't be able to attend the tourney at all.

That's an interesting take. Too little is known about the Others, but there is a curious parallel between the pale woman and Melisandre, in appearance and in what they wanted from men. Melisandre wanted the seed to produce shadow babies; the pale woman might have produced "white shadows".

Add to it

  Hide contents

Euron's non-human female consort with pale flame in her hands, and things might get really interesting.

 

Well she wouldn't, it's be about Aery's reasons. As TWOIAF states he used to sleep with Rhaella's ladies in waiting all the time. Only supposedly staying faithful since before Viserys. That's assuming he did stay faithful. That would be the idea behind how and why that scenario could happen.

Just easiest way to pull it down. And 7 horses? Ropes? and 2 men? That better be a small shoddy tower still. And yes they definitely can have wooden beams in them, but not likely needed on a round brick tower other than for the roof. Could be wrong though.

Step carefully?? Really??? Why??????? To suggest some one has the option to lie if they chose is no thing. I never called him a liar and even if i did, the forum community gonna have a melt down and burn me at the stake? Please. I mean, good to know that he prides him self on not lying. Given that though, im sure if he said one thing off hand at an interview that he later changes and puts in the books, he wouldn't call that lying but just changing his mind. Again, untill it's in the book, it's not canon and he can do or say what he wants. 

And no, i dont need an author to lie, and him saying that would change very little about my theory lol 

Some one else had worked out the incident about Arthur and the laughing Knight having to do with Elia's birthing and that issue of her being bed ridden. Ill have to look and see if i cant find it.

Yea Mel and her shadow baby is what really kinda tipped me off when looking for a motive for the Others, other than revenge.

[Ygrain]

58 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well she wouldn't, it's be about Aery's reasons. As TWOIAF states he used to sleep with Rhaella's ladies in waiting all the time. Only supposedly staying faithful since before Viserys. That's assuming he did stay faithful. That would be the idea behind how and why that scenario could happen.

Well, the text states that every time Aerys gave a man to the flames, he visited Rhaella. No other woman is mentioned as a victim of his lust. And Ashara wasn't even Rhaella's lady in waiting, she was Elia's, and if Aerys summoned her, why would he send her to his wife's bedroom, and how come that the KG, whom he kept around him all the time, would have no idea? If you want to keep it as a 0,000000000001% percent chance because we are not told explicitely that it wasn't Ashara, fine, but this is stretching the limits far too much for my liking.

58 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Just easiest way to pull it down. And 7 horses? Ropes? and 2 men? That better be a small shoddy tower still. And yes they definitely can have wooden beams in them, but not likely needed on a round brick tower other than for the roof. Could be wrong though.

It was a watchtower, not a fortress that was supposed to withstand siege, so the walls didn't need to be built very strong, and with lighter structures, most of the interior can be wood - ceilings, staircases... 

Plus, even with regular castles, fire can cause collapse of the building; with today's ruins, you see mostly the shell of the outer walls, no higher than the first floor and not in all places, with lots of loose rubble around and inside. Ned didn't need to raze the tower to the ground completely, after all, the rubble was all he needed.

58 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Step carefully?? Really??? Why??????? To suggest some one has the option to lie if they chose is no thing. I never called him a liar and even if i did, the forum community gonna have a melt down and burn me at the stake? Please. I mean, good to know that he prides him self on not lying. Given that though, im sure if he said one thing off hand at an interview that he later changes and puts in the books, he wouldn't call that lying but just changing his mind. Again, untill it's in the book, it's not canon and he can do or say what he wants. 

Er... if you suggest that someone might take the option to say a lie, you are effectively calling him a liar, because only liars have that option. And I don't see what changing his mind has to do with this - at the point when he was asked, he gave true information. That's why the SSMs are semi-canon - true information but as of yet, unconfirmed in the books, but in no way a lie.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Well, the text states that every time Aerys gave a man to the flames, he visited Rhaella. No other woman is mentioned as a victim of his lust. And Ashara wasn't even Rhaella's lady in waiting, she was Elia's, and if Aerys summoned her, why would he send her to his wife's bedroom, and how come that the KG, whom he kept around him all the time, would have no idea? If you want to keep it as a 0,000000000001% percent chance because we are not told explicitely that it wasn't Ashara, fine, but this is stretching the limits far too much for my liking.

It was a watchtower, not a fortress that was supposed to withstand siege, so the walls didn't need to be built very strong, and with lighter structures, most of the interior can be wood - ceilings, staircases... 

Plus, even with regular castles, fire can cause collapse of the building; with today's ruins, you see mostly the shell of the outer walls, no higher than the first floor and not in all places, with lots of loose rubble around and inside. Ned didn't need to raze the tower to the ground completely, after all, the rubble was all he needed.

Er... if you suggest that someone might take the option to say a lie, you are effectively calling him a liar, because only liars have that option. And I don't see what changing his mind has to do with this - at the point when he was asked, he gave true information. That's why the SSMs are semi-canon - true information but as of yet, unconfirmed in the books, but in no way a lie.

 

Ok. Firstly, the text is pov chapters. Everytime. That literally means information we are told can be inaccurate. How could any one get in and out of rooms in K.L. with out no one noticing? Ummm, the secret passages?? And why would Ashara have been mentioned before. As you said, she was lady in waiting to Elia Martel. Elia Martel who was brought to K.L. meaning Aery's would've just found out about the dame that is Ashara Dayne. Supposedly you say Martin says she was never at K.L., yea well cool. I've never seen that, and still waiting to......All under this "hypothetical" scenario i put out there as an "unlikely" second scenario to how Dany could be Targ and Dayne and it not be Rhaegar. Something you seem to wanna just stay stuck in. Idk why. 

And i dont know if you understand the durability of simply round structures as opposed to square ones or weight dispersion or even much probably about how castles or building work, but simply put, a small round tower would be plenty strong enough by it's design. Go throw a stone at a flat wall and see how well that works, let alone a round one. Maybe it was mostly wood though for some reason and was simply burned, but that's the only likely way i can see based on the text at hand. Unless we assume something not explicitly said in the text...... but i think the forum world would come unhinged lol Im all for it though really hahah There are way's a tall tower can be brought down, but it would require more than 2 men and 7 horses i should think. Unless they built a catapult. Youd have to impact it hard and high, or dig out part of the base and land around it to force a collapse. 

And yes, those are square buildings with flat walls and other just outs that would require wood support and roof to support all that design. So soon as a part of that castle gave, it'd be enough to tear down other adjoined parts while still leaving other parts still up. 

Again, you can call it what you want and people can ruffle chicken feathers all they want. Doesn't change the fact that GRRM is beholden to nothing he says and only what he writes. 

[LynnS]

On the subject of lying...

If Lyanna disappears one day and nobody can account for her disappearance while Brandon shows up at KL demanding to see Rhaegar who is also awol, does this mean she was kidnapped by Rhaegar?  Robert is the first character to actually make that accusation and believes it until the day he dies. Does this make it true?  Isn't it also possible that Robert was wrong and jumped to a conclusion.  Does that mean he's lying or that Martin lied if it turns out that Lyanna wasn't kidnapped by Rhaegar, only that Robert thought she was kidnapped or that Robert himself is the basis for the accusation and all the stories in-world that follow.  Is Robert the sharpest knife in the drawer? 

As for Brandon showing up at KL when Lyanna appears to have gone missing:

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - The Queensguard

He did not wish to be conspicuous, so when he was finished with his supper he changed out of his court clothes, trading the white cloak of the Queensguard for a hooded brown traveler's cloak such as any common man might wear. He kept his sword and dagger. This could still be some trap. He had little trust in Hizdahr and less in Reznak mo Reznak. The perfumed seneschal could well be part of this, trying to lure him into a secret meeting so he could sweep up him and Skahaz both and charge them with conspiring against the king. If the Shavepate speaks treason, he will leave me no choice but to arrest him. Hizdahr is my queen's consort, however little I may like it. My duty is to him, not Skahaz.

 

Selmy has seen this kind of tactic in use before.  Just substitute a few names and we know what happened to Brandon and who was behind it.  Brandon was a gallant fool and Rhaegar knew better.

So if Robert hears that Lyanna is missing and that Brandon has been arrested after calling out Rhaegar who is also missing; does that mean Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna because Robert comes to that conclusion?

So if someone questions these events; does that mean they are calling Martin a liar or that Martin has lied to the reader?  No it doesn't.  There is no disrespect to the author who has challenged his readers to engage with the text in exactly that manner.

We need to tread lightly when discussion of the text becomes about the character of forum members. That's the point when it becomes personal and you are losing the argument.

 

[Ygrain]

4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Ok. Firstly, the text is pov chapters. Everytime. That literally means information we are told can be inaccurate. How could any one get in and out of rooms in K.L. with out no one noticing? Ummm, the secret passages?? And why would Ashara have been mentioned before. As you said, she was lady in waiting to Elia Martel. Elia Martel who was brought to K.L. meaning Aery's would've just found out about the dame that is Ashara Dayne. Supposedly you say Martin says she was never at K.L., yea well cool. I've never seen that, and still waiting to......All under this "hypothetical" scenario i put out there as an "unlikely" second scenario to how Dany could be Targ and Dayne and it not be Rhaegar. Something you seem to wanna just stay stuck in. Idk why. 

Of course the information can be inaccurate but there is only as far as youcan go doubting the information - for example, should we doubt the parentage of the Stark children because we receive the info through PoVs and because Cat doesn't state explicitely that she never had an affair with anyone? I hope not.

Now, the problem of Ashara in Rhaella's bedroom: it is certainly possible to smuggle a person from one room to another in the Red Keep, but the problem is, why the hell would anyone do it? If Aerys wanted to have sex with Ashara secretly, then why not have her brought into his own room, or  some empty room? His wife's bedroom doesn't qualify as far as secrecy, or privacy, is concerned, and where the hell is Rhaella meanwhile? And how did Rhaella get savaged if she was not the one raped, and if Ashara was raped, who treated her and why didn't the information leak in some way? It would be huge for Barristan, or Lewyn Martell, not to mention Rhaegar and Elia, to find out what Aerys did.

With some mental effort, I am sure that some kind of - rather complicated - explanation could be found that would cover all the gaps and explain all the inconsistencies with the information we have, but the problem is that nothing in the books indicates an existence of such an explanation, and that is why I completely reject the idea.

4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And i dont know if you understand the durability of simply round structures as opposed to square ones or weight dispersion or even much probably about how castles or building work, but simply put, a small round tower would be plenty strong enough by it's design. Go throw a stone at a flat wall and see how well that works, let alone a round one. Maybe it was mostly wood though for some reason and was simply burned, but that's the only likely way i can see based on the text at hand. Unless we assume something not explicitly said in the text...... but i think the forum world would come unhinged lol Im all for it though really hahah There are way's a tall tower can be brought down, but it would require more than 2 men and 7 horses i should think. Unless they built a catapult. Youd have to impact it hard and high, or dig out part of the base and land around it to force a collapse. 

You're forgetting one thing: Ned didn't need to break in, he could apply force from within. And he didn't need to demolish it all at once; all you need is cracks in the walls and some leverage, and go from top to the bottom (and not necessarily to the very bottom, he didn't need to level it completely). 

4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Doesn't change the fact that GRRM is beholden to nothing he says and only what he writes. 

People don't need to be Ned Stark to feel bound by their word and therefore weigh carefully what they say.

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

snip

May I point out that the matter didn't concern the information in the books but GRRM's answer to a reader's question? Most answers GRRM provides are not phrased as a character's PoV.

[AlaskanSandman]

7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Of course the information can be inaccurate but there is only as far as youcan go doubting the information - for example, should we doubt the parentage of the Stark children because we receive the info through PoVs and because Cat doesn't state explicitely that she never had an affair with anyone? I hope not.

Now, the problem of Ashara in Rhaella's bedroom: it is certainly possible to smuggle a person from one room to another in the Red Keep, but the problem is, why the hell would anyone do it? If Aerys wanted to have sex with Ashara secretly, then why not have her brought into his own room, or  some empty room? His wife's bedroom doesn't qualify as far as secrecy, or privacy, is concerned, and where the hell is Rhaella meanwhile? And how did Rhaella get savaged if she was not the one raped, and if Ashara was raped, who treated her and why didn't the information leak in some way? It would be huge for Barristan, or Lewyn Martell, not to mention Rhaegar and Elia, to find out what Aerys did.

With some mental effort, I am sure that some kind of - rather complicated - explanation could be found that would cover all the gaps and explain all the inconsistencies with the information we have, but the problem is that nothing in the books indicates an existence of such an explanation, and that is why I completely reject the idea.

You're forgetting one thing: Ned didn't need to break in, he could apply force from within. And he didn't need to demolish it all at once; all you need is cracks in the walls and some leverage, and go from top to the bottom (and not necessarily to the very bottom, he didn't need to level it completely). 

People don't need to be Ned Stark to feel bound by their word and therefore weigh carefully what they say.

May I point out that the matter didn't concern the information in the books but GRRM's answer to a reader's question? Most answers GRRM provides are not phrased as a character's PoV.

Give me a lil time. 

Ill paint every one a very detailed picture using just quotes from the book into my own narrative.

PTWP-born of the lines of Aerys and Rhaella?

Rhaella+Bonifer Hasty= Rhaegar

9 failed births till Viserys

Rhaegars motives. Rhaeny, Aegon,.............Visenya.  Rhaegar was expecting a daughter. So we'll pretend Dany's real name is Visenya.

Ashara as original plan.

Lyanna as interference and new plan.

Rhaegar disappointed at having a son, Jon. When expecting a daughter to full fill the prophecy. (So possibly Rhaegar) who couldve popped over to Starfall or Ashara couldve been at Tower.

Ill set up the possible rape scenario (for Aerys as father. This also full fills top prophecy about Aerys and Rhaella. Jon born of Rhaegar and Rhaella's line. Dany (Visenya) born of Aery's line.) Jon and Dany meant to come together even more so.

[Ygrain]

As a scenario, not impossible. However, as something that should stem from the information in the text, severely lacking evidence (e.g. Rhaella having sex with Bonnifer) and contradicting the stated - correct me if I am wrong but your scenario would require the prophecy to be phrased as from their lineS, which then wouldn't lead to the marriage of the two. Plus, Rhaegar was already dead by the time Jon was born, so he couldn't try and rectify his mistake with Ashara.

[AlaskanSandman]

7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

As a scenario, not impossible. However, as something that should stem from the information in the text, severely lacking evidence (e.g. Rhaella having sex with Bonnifer) and contradicting the stated - correct me if I am wrong but your scenario would require the prophecy to be phrased as from their lineS, which then wouldn't lead to the marriage of the two. Plus, Rhaegar was already dead by the time Jon was born, so he couldn't try and rectify his mistake with Ashara.

R+L=J?   Where is that clearly stated in the books? It never say's Lyanna loved Rhaegar or even liked him. She liked a song he sang, so what. Im a musician, i wish it was that easy. All the books ever say is that Rhaegar kidnapped her and raped her. In fact there is still many people who debate against R+L=J. 

Well firstly this is Barristan recounting it and could have worded it wrong. Play the grape vine game and see how the stories changed as it goes around the circle and get's back to you.

Secondly, yes still possibly would, as Rhaegar may be the only one to believe the Prince that was promised needed 3 heads. Melisandre, Aemon and no one else seems to hint to that. 

And yes, Rhaegar probably died before Jon's birth. I mean, GRRM said Jon was born around the Sack of K.L. but thatd still be a month stretch before Sack of K.L.  So no, probably not Rhaegar rectifying Jon being a boy. Still doesn't change the fact that Rhaegar was expecting a girl.

Rhaegar may have just hooked up with Ashara at K.L. or while down in Dorne at Tower of Joy to make good on original plan to have her mother the third child. 

Rhaegar needs 3 children to full fill the prophecy of the PWTP as he see's it. 

Ashara wouldn't, she would believe she only needed one child to full fill this prophecy. A child to wield Dawn. House Dayne, who has Dawn, may well be aware of the prophecy too as it does come from Asshai, not just Valyria. Only one person can wield Dawn.

House Dayne is in Dorne, where women inherit equal to men also. So dont tell me a girl cant wield Dawn when clearly the text implies just as much haha  

I will finish up my theory with quotes to illustrate my point on all things though and present both options for Dany's father and let people decide for them selves based on the text

[Ygrain]

5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

R+L=J?   Where is that clearly stated in the books? It never say's Lyanna loved Rhaegar or even liked him. She liked a song he sang, so what. Im a musician, i wish it was that easy. All the books ever say is that Rhaegar kidnapped her and raped her. In fact there is still many people who debate against R+L=J. 

Huh? Right at the beginning of AGOT, Dany's PoV states that Rhaegar died for the woman he loved, and in ADWD you have it spelled black on white that Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna. 

5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well firstly this is Barristan recounting it and could have worded it wrong. Play the grape vine game and see how the stories changed as it goes around the circle and get's back to you.

What exactly are you referring to here?

5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And yes, Rhaegar probably died before Jon's birth. I mean, GRRM said Jon was born around the Sack of K.L. but thatd still be a month stretch before Sack of K.L.

No, he didn't. What he said was that Jon was born 8-9 months before Daenerys or thereabouts. Dany was born 9 months after the Sack, which means Jon was born at around the Sack or somewhat later.

5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 So no, probably not Rhaegar rectifying Jon being a boy. Still doesn't change the fact that Rhaegar was expecting a girl.

Well... we don't know that for sure. We know he thought he needed one more child but if he intended to re-create the original trio, he should have named his daughter Visenya, not Rhaenys. What if he figured out that he was wrong about Aegon being PTWP, just like he had been wrong about himself being PTWP, and pursued the affair with Lyanna to start from scratch?

5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Rhaegar may have just hooked up with Ashara at K.L. or while down in Dorne at Tower of Joy to make good on original plan to have her mother the third child. 

Nothing against it in the text, nor in favour.

5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Ashara wouldn't, she would believe she only needed one child to full fill this prophecy. A child to wield Dawn. House Dayne, who has Dawn, may well be aware of the prophecy too as it does come from Asshai, not just Valyria. Only one person can wield Dawn.

House Dayne is in Dorne, where women inherit equal to men also. So dont tell me a girl cant wield Dawn when clearly the text implies just as much haha  

Oh, I certainly don't intend to - "woman is important, too!" says Arya right in her first chapter, and she is damn right.

[TheSeason]

On ‎9‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 6:21 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

I stopped reading what you had to say when you asked me why not Ashara Dayne. Like, i literally stopped there. 

Normally i read everything a person takes the time to write me, whether i agree with it or not. Whether i choose to respond can be dependent on a few things.

Ashara Dayne, and why she WAS chose, its literally part of my theory. It's literally the basis of my theory, how the meeting of Lyanna through the manipulations of Howland interfered with his plan with her, and the subsequent events that followed based on my theory. Not trying to be rude but when half of what your trying to counter me with seems based on not understanding or having read my post completely, it leaves me very little to logically retort with. Other than a long thesis of a response to re-explain my original post. 

I apologize if my post is hard for you to follow or understand though. Maybe im not getting my ideas across right. Time is precious some times and i must keep things short and condensed where i may. 

Edit- Other than that i fully enjoy discussing with you and have no issues with you disagreeing with me and expressing your ideas and thoughts

I will try to get to all your points on point tomorrow when i get off work, you can read if you choose. Forgive my shortness, it's late my time and must get to bed. 

Once again, not trying to shut you down and be rude and i apologize 

Ah, okay. If you'd finished the paragraph you would've seen the context I was asking those questions in (you appear to be addressing differing motives at different times, to me, so although I understand what you're saying Rhaegar's overall motive is--make the promised prince trio with the right woman/women with "magical" dna or family history to address certain prophecies and requirements for each promised person of that trio--but I don't understand what you think Rhaegar's thought processes are at Harrenhal. I debated the inclusion of Ashara at all, because I feared it might be confusing, but added her in because you say he already had a willing and eager partner to make prophecy babies with, so I don't understand why they haven't been actively trying to achieve their goal or why Lyanna became more important to attend to than Ashara at this time. 

I noticed on other threads you have a tendency to edit your OPs often, and I first read this post days before my initial response, so maybe I've missed or forgotten something crucial about your argument. I'm going back to give your OP another read, in all fairness. 

I really appreciate and accept your apology. I also apologize if I've frustrated you with my questions or if it seems I'm too focused on minutiae instead of your overall argument. The reason I've been trying to address Aegon's birth in relation to Harrenhal is because I think it's integral to supporting your theory, but I've never seen anyone argue that Aegon was born prior to Harrenhal (he was also still considered a babe at breast upon his death, but with my understanding of the nature of the False Spring, your argument means he could be up to six months older than I think he was when he died, which is pretty startling; six months, I say, to give Elia enough time to recuperate from her deathbed, because that's the only way I see her traveling to Harrenhal for a tourney after Aegon's birth...). I will try to address the broader strokes of your theory. I had refrained, from thinking Aegon's birth was a significant point, as well as not wanting to repeat other posters' responses. 

Sometimes it's difficult to determine exactly what you're arguing because of the off-the-cuff way you make your arguments, adding in different options as new ideas come to you, and the lack of structured evidence, which is what I'm more accustomed to. 

Anyway, I will try to engage further, and offer a cyber toast to buried hatchets.  

So.... I've given your OP a second read, now, and I'll try to address the broader strokes of it. 

Rhaella and Child Mortality: 

Rhaella successfully carried a lot of children to term. They suffered high infant mortality rate, which was normal, or might have been targeted by others (say, the "maester conspiracy") who did not want the Targaryens to recover (the accusations of poisoning). Rhaella had few stillbirths or miscarriages, so I think you've really skewed her "success rate" in live births and therefore underestimate the likelihood she could give birth to a healthy Dany (note that Dany, like Viserys, was hidden away from contact with any others who might have been party to murdering Targaryen children, like the maesters, which is the reason Aerys, at least, thinks Viserys survived his infancy, so a repeat with Dany could be possible). 

 

Aerys's Rape of X after Chelsted's Death: 

Text evidence tells us that it was definitely Rhaella that Aerys raped that night, no one else, so you have to find another rape by Aerys at that time whose victim might have been "obfuscated" in some way to prove your theory. I'm also not certain why you are arguing that Aerys raped Ashara Dayne at all. Do you mean to argue that Aerys is Dany's father or that Rhaegar is? This argument seems to go against what your main claims (Rhaegar is Dany's father, Ashara is her mother).

ETA: As the thread moved ahead, I see you're trying to add this in as a "back-up plan" to have Ashara as Dany's mother and Aerys as her father. It still doesn't make much sense to me. Especially with this random new detail that Rhaegar is a bastard born of Bonnifer Hasty which means your primary argument that Rhaegar is Dany's father doesn't hold any water whatsoever, because Rhaegar would not himself be born of Aerys and Rhaella's line (singular "line" meaning of a union between them) that could father the Prince that Was Promised by any woman (Elia, Lyanna, and Ashara are not descended of Aerys II to make this work. Nor is Serra, who is Young Griff's mother), so this is a huge problem that can only be rectified in part by Aerys raping Ashara Dayne instead of Rhaella on the night Dany was conceived (which doesn't in itself hold any water, because of reasons I've stated or stated by other posters, such as @Ygrain above.). Neither Aerys nor Rhaegar (who was dead the night Dany was conceived, and therefore never knew he'd have a little sister) had access to Ashara Dayne at this conception. Aerys clearly rapes Rhaella (in her own bedchamber, with his Kingsguard standing guard outside the door to hear her cries so clearly Jaime identified her voice--he had to, in order to argue that he was foresworn to protect Queen Rhaella as well, and for Darry to answer "Not from him."--and Rhaella's handmaids were surprised afterward to mark how Rhaella had been savaged; why would Ashara Dayne be in Rhaella's chambers? Why would Aerys rape her in his wife and queen's bedchamber? Where was Rhaella during this event? How did the Kingsguard mistake Ashara for Rhaella? Why would Rhaella's servants attend to Ashara's bath, who is herself a handmaiden to Elia Martell? Do you have any evidence that Aerys broke his vow of fidelity following Viserys's birth, especially since in his madness he linked the deaths of his children to his infidelity to his royal wife, the foremother of the promised prince? Aerys was very torn up about the deaths of his children in their infancy, and became obsessed with keeping Viserys alive, so there should be some evidence that he was willing to take the risk of angering the gods if he thought it would result in the death of his children.) 

 

Rhaella and Viserys's Flight to Dragonstone: 

Just because Rhaella wore a hooded cloak on the morning she left the Red Keep does not mean that Jaime could not see her face to identify her. She was also traveling in a royal wheelhouse, I think. Furthermore, her handmaidens had been gossiping about the results of Aerys's rape the night before (bruises, bite marks, etc.) giving further evidence that this was indeed Dany's conception. 

Also, just because they left the Red Keep in the morning does not mean they boarded a ship or left harbor in the morning, or if they did, that the journey did not last into the night. Winter had returned with a vengeance by this time, so stormy seas could have been a nuisance on their journey, just as the winds harried Stannis's journey from Dragonstone to King's Landing for the Battle of the Blackwater, delaying his arrival for days, and giving Garlan Tyrell's van time to march up the rose road and cross the river to attack his forces during the battle. 

I don't see any true conflict in the "morning departure" from the Red Keep and the "midnight flight" to Dragonstone. Was there something else in the text that made you think this conflicted description of the flight was significant?

 

Rhaegar's Access to Ashara Dayne: 

I don't understand your claim that Rhaegar had a willing and eager partner to make prophecy babies with Ashara Dayne, refrained from trying to conceive whilst he had ample access to her (at Dragonstone, at the tourney, at Dragonstone again) as your claim requires that there was quite some time between Aegon's birth (prior to the tourney) and Rhaegar's separation from Ashara at the new year (to abduct Lyanna). What are you saying he was thinking? Why would he spurn and "dishonor" her at all, when that means she might not be willing to "fulfill her obligation" to make prophecy babies with him at a later date? I don't understand what you think Rhaegar was thinking at Harrenhal (hence my questions in my last post). 

Furthermore, I disagree with your assessment that Ashara Dayne remained with or traveled alongside or to Elia Martell. We have some text evidence that they were separated following Harrenhal, possibly due to a pregnancy (I have doubts Ashara was pregnant at all, but think it's possible she conceived a child with Brandon or Ned at Harrenhal, and that child, if she survives, could be Allyria Dayne, if she were of the right age, but nowhere do I see evidence that she is Dany's mother, and not Rhaella Targaryen--you seem to think Ashara is more important than Rhaella, for prophecy's sake, about whom the prophecy was made, requiring she marry her brother despite disliking/hating him and "loving" Bonnifer Hasty, but I think it's just the opposite: the promised prince was to be born of Aerys II and Rhaella's line, and as Dany and Rhaegar's mother, with Rhaegar being father to Jon Snow and "father" to Aegon "Young Griff," she is forebear to them all, both directly and indirectly; if she was only incidentally important as Rhaegar's mother, the Ghost should have been clearer that their son would father the promised prince, all three parties to the prophecy. Why do you think Ashara is more significant than she is--as a "cloak and shield" for Jon Snow, one candidate for his mother?).  

So, while Rhaegar might have had some access to Ashara Dayne during his sojourn in Dorne, he could not have fathered either of her prospective children according to your argument (the child thought conceived at Harrenhal is both too soon and unimportant to the narrative, with confusion as to whether that child was male or female, who sired it, and even lacking a name for that baby, which serves only to shield Jon Snow's parents; if Ashara gave birth closer to Ned's arrival and her suicide, however, whilst Rhaegar could have fathered that child, that child cannot be Dany, who was born nine months after the Sack and conceived after Rhaegar's--her supposed father--death at the Trident; furthermore, all evidence suggest Ashara had committed suicide by the time Dany was actually born. What evidence do you have that she "faked" her death?). 

 

Rhaegar's Death, Ashara's Suicide, and Relation of Jon and Dany's Births: 

I'm not going to belabor the point, but Ashara's suicide near the time Ned arrived from the Tower of Joy, was eight or nine months prior to Dany's birth. The relationship between Jon and Dany's birth dates doesn't alter Dany's birth timing in any way, but Jon Snow's, meaning he was born during the Sack of King's Landing or up to a month afterward. Dany is always born nine months after the Sack in this relationship (a conception is not immediate upon ejaculation and can happen days later, and pregnancy can go overdue, lasting up to nine and a half months, so Dany being conceived a week prior to Rhaella's flight and after Rhaegar's death and born nine months after the Sack is well within the time frame for Rhaella and Aerys to be her parents; there's no evidence suggesting it was Ashara in that room, so you'd need to find evidence of Aerys raping her near the same time as he raped Rhaella, because all text evidence supports that Aerys raped his wife, Rhaella conceived, Rhaella brought a child to term, and that she died in childbed nine months after the Sack). 

This also means that Rhaegar can't be Dany's father, nor that Ashara can be her mother, even according to your own argument that Ashara (somehow, because it cannot be with the aid of the men who died at the Tower of Joy) traveled from Starfall (where Ned returned Dawn to her) to Dragonstone (where she gave birth at approximately the same time as Rhaella--the only way I see that happening is if the stress of the storm and the destruction of the Targaryen fleet induced labor, as both children were already due around that time anyway). Rhaegar would have been dead two weeks before the Sack (a week prior to Dany's conception), and departed King's Landing a month before the Sack (a pregnancy going overdue a full month, at least, is quite a stretch). It also requires Ashara Dayne to think that "faking" her death (how?) and fleeing to Dragonstone was a good idea, when the Daynes are known to display the same features as the Targaryens, and she could merely lie about who the father of her child was and keep the baby safe at Starfall (same as Ned merely lied about Jon Snow rather than associate him with Targaryens). Because there is no evidence that she ever had sex with either Rhaegar or Aerys, it seems strange for her to willingly associate her baby with the Targaryen bloodline, thereby endangering a child that could simply "pass" as a Dayne (which she was, at least on one side) for the rest of her life. 

 

Dany as Rhaegar/Ashara: 

I won't belabor the point of why Dany might view herself as or look up to Rhaegar, because I think I made a strong case that it is in no way out of the ordinary... but I'm not certain why you have determined that Dany is seeing from Ashara Dayne's perspective in the House of the Undying. Dany is standing where Rhaegar is staring off, thinking, which permits the author to point her out as the other head of the dragon alongside "Aegon"/"Young Griff" so that when Rhaegar (and Martin) tells us that "There must be one more. The dragon has three heads." we know to look for one more character who might fulfill the requirements (Jon Snow) as the promised prince. 

Was Dany placed in the perspective of anyone else in the HotU when viewing these visions? If so, why would Ashara Dayne be unique in this capacity as a "window" to these visions? If not, why do you single this vision/Ashara Dayne out as having so internal significance as to who Rhaegar was talking to or what that means? 

Also, if Dany were to be standing outside the window when Viserys stares off to fight the battle of the Trident in his mind in the quote I gave before, would she not mistake him as possibly looking at her, just the same as she mistakes Rhaegar as looking at or speaking to her in the HotU vision of Aegon's birth? This is the same sort of scenario you read into the vision, for example. 

Quote

"(Viserys) pushed back a curtain and stared off into the night, and Dany knew he was fighting the battle of the Trident once again."

 

 

Quote

Secondly, yes still possibly would, as Rhaegar may be the only one to believe the Prince that was promised needed 3 heads. Melisandre, Aemon and no one else seems to hint to that. 

 

As he lays dying, Aemon explicitly concludes "I should be with her, showing her the way. The dragon has three heads, but I am too old and frail to be one of them!"

 

Anyway, while I'm not buying the broader strokes of your argument, as it requires too many convoluted stretches, to many "if, thens" and "maybes" to work,  and requires re-writing a well established timeline for very little payoff, I'm curious about some of your ideas about the Others and what evidence you have to support your claims, so that's what interested me in your topic in the first place. I was not clear about that upfront, so maybe it felt to you that I was just picking on you or pushing my own theories, but I would not do that, and respect that this is your topic and appreciate you sharing and discussing your ideas and interpretations of the text. 

 

ETA: I see you've edited your original post again, changing a great deal of your argument. I haven't read it yet, so I'm just responding to your previous arguments here. Just to be clear so there's no confusion. I started this comment a couple days ago, prior to your edits, and do not have the time to go back and check on them yet. 

 

[Ygrain]

4 hours ago, TheSeason said:

Rhaegar (who was dead the night Dany was conceived

Just a little correction here: the rape took place before Rhaegar's departure for the Trident, because Darry, who was also killed at the Trident, is guarding the door along with Jaime.

[AlaskanSandman]

7 hours ago, TheSeason said:

Ah, okay. If you'd finished the paragraph you would've seen the context I was asking those questions in (you appear to be addressing differing motives at different times, to me, so although I understand what you're saying Rhaegar's overall motive is--make the promised prince trio with the right woman/women with "magical" dna or family history to address certain prophecies and requirements for each promised person of that trio--but I don't understand what you think Rhaegar's thought processes are at Harrenhal. I debated the inclusion of Ashara at all, because I feared it might be confusing, but added her in because you say he already had a willing and eager partner to make prophecy babies with, so I don't understand why they haven't been actively trying to achieve their goal or why Lyanna became more important to attend to than Ashara at this time. 

I noticed on other threads you have a tendency to edit your OPs often, and I first read this post days before my initial response, so maybe I've missed or forgotten something crucial about your argument. I'm going back to give your OP another read, in all fairness. 

I really appreciate and accept your apology. I also apologize if I've frustrated you with my questions or if it seems I'm too focused on minutiae instead of your overall argument. The reason I've been trying to address Aegon's birth in relation to Harrenhal is because I think it's integral to supporting your theory, but I've never seen anyone argue that Aegon was born prior to Harrenhal (he was also still considered a babe at breast upon his death, but with my understanding of the nature of the False Spring, your argument means he could be up to six months older than I think he was when he died, which is pretty startling; six months, I say, to give Elia enough time to recuperate from her deathbed, because that's the only way I see her traveling to Harrenhal for a tourney after Aegon's birth...). I will try to address the broader strokes of your theory. I had refrained, from thinking Aegon's birth was a significant point, as well as not wanting to repeat other posters' responses. 

Sometimes it's difficult to determine exactly what you're arguing because of the off-the-cuff way you make your arguments, adding in different options as new ideas come to you, and the lack of structured evidence, which is what I'm more accustomed to. 

Anyway, I will try to engage further, and offer a cyber toast to buried hatchets.  

So.... I've given your OP a second read, now, and I'll try to address the broader strokes of it. 

Rhaella and Child Mortality: 

Rhaella successfully carried a lot of children to term. They suffered high infant mortality rate, which was normal, or might have been targeted by others (say, the "maester conspiracy") who did not want the Targaryens to recover (the accusations of poisoning). Rhaella had few stillbirths or miscarriages, so I think you've really skewed her "success rate" in live births and therefore underestimate the likelihood she could give birth to a healthy Dany (note that Dany, like Viserys, was hidden away from contact with any others who might have been party to murdering Targaryen children, like the maesters, which is the reason Aerys, at least, thinks Viserys survived his infancy, so a repeat with Dany could be possible). 

 

Aerys's Rape of X after Chelsted's Death: 

Text evidence tells us that it was definitely Rhaella that Aerys raped that night, no one else, so you have to find another rape by Aerys at that time whose victim might have been "obfuscated" in some way to prove your theory. I'm also not certain why you are arguing that Aerys raped Ashara Dayne at all. Do you mean to argue that Aerys is Dany's father or that Rhaegar is? This argument seems to go against what your main claims (Rhaegar is Dany's father, Ashara is her mother).

ETA: As the thread moved ahead, I see you're trying to add this in as a "back-up plan" to have Ashara as Dany's mother and Aerys as her father. It still doesn't make much sense to me. Especially with this random new detail that Rhaegar is a bastard born of Bonnifer Hasty which means your primary argument that Rhaegar is Dany's father doesn't hold any water whatsoever, because Rhaegar would not himself be born of Aerys and Rhaella's line (singular "line" meaning of a union between them) that could father the Prince that Was Promised by any woman (Elia, Lyanna, and Ashara are not descended of Aerys II to make this work. Nor is Serra, who is Young Griff's mother), so this is a huge problem that can only be rectified in part by Aerys raping Ashara Dayne instead of Rhaella on the night Dany was conceived (which doesn't in itself hold any water, because of reasons I've stated or stated by other posters, such as @Ygrain above.). Neither Aerys nor Rhaegar (who was dead the night Dany was conceived, and therefore never knew he'd have a little sister) had access to Ashara Dayne at this conception. Aerys clearly rapes Rhaella (in her own bedchamber, with his Kingsguard standing guard outside the door to hear her cries so clearly Jaime identified her voice--he had to, in order to argue that he was foresworn to protect Queen Rhaella as well, and for Darry to answer "Not from him."--and Rhaella's handmaids were surprised afterward to mark how Rhaella had been savaged; why would Ashara Dayne be in Rhaella's chambers? Why would Aerys rape her in his wife and queen's bedchamber? Where was Rhaella during this event? How did the Kingsguard mistake Ashara for Rhaella? Why would Rhaella's servants attend to Ashara's bath, who is herself a handmaiden to Elia Martell? Do you have any evidence that Aerys broke his vow of fidelity following Viserys's birth, especially since in his madness he linked the deaths of his children to his infidelity to his royal wife, the foremother of the promised prince? Aerys was very torn up about the deaths of his children in their infancy, and became obsessed with keeping Viserys alive, so there should be some evidence that he was willing to take the risk of angering the gods if he thought it would result in the death of his children.) 

 

Rhaella and Viserys's Flight to Dragonstone: 

Just because Rhaella wore a hooded cloak on the morning she left the Red Keep does not mean that Jaime could not see her face to identify her. She was also traveling in a royal wheelhouse, I think. Furthermore, her handmaidens had been gossiping about the results of Aerys's rape the night before (bruises, bite marks, etc.) giving further evidence that this was indeed Dany's conception. 

Also, just because they left the Red Keep in the morning does not mean they boarded a ship or left harbor in the morning, or if they did, that the journey did not last into the night. Winter had returned with a vengeance by this time, so stormy seas could have been a nuisance on their journey, just as the winds harried Stannis's journey from Dragonstone to King's Landing for the Battle of the Blackwater, delaying his arrival for days, and giving Garlan Tyrell's van time to march up the rose road and cross the river to attack his forces during the battle. 

I don't see any true conflict in the "morning departure" from the Red Keep and the "midnight flight" to Dragonstone. Was there something else in the text that made you think this conflicted description of the flight was significant?

 

Rhaegar's Access to Ashara Dayne: 

I don't understand your claim that Rhaegar had a willing and eager partner to make prophecy babies with Ashara Dayne, refrained from trying to conceive whilst he had ample access to her (at Dragonstone, at the tourney, at Dragonstone again) as your claim requires that there was quite some time between Aegon's birth (prior to the tourney) and Rhaegar's separation from Ashara at the new year (to abduct Lyanna). What are you saying he was thinking? Why would he spurn and "dishonor" her at all, when that means she might not be willing to "fulfill her obligation" to make prophecy babies with him at a later date? I don't understand what you think Rhaegar was thinking at Harrenhal (hence my questions in my last post). 

Furthermore, I disagree with your assessment that Ashara Dayne remained with or traveled alongside or to Elia Martell. We have some text evidence that they were separated following Harrenhal, possibly due to a pregnancy (I have doubts Ashara was pregnant at all, but think it's possible she conceived a child with Brandon or Ned at Harrenhal, and that child, if she survives, could be Allyria Dayne, if she were of the right age, but nowhere do I see evidence that she is Dany's mother, and not Rhaella Targaryen--you seem to think Ashara is more important than Rhaella, for prophecy's sake, about whom the prophecy was made, requiring she marry her brother despite disliking/hating him and "loving" Bonnifer Hasty, but I think it's just the opposite: the promised prince was to be born of Aerys II and Rhaella's line, and as Dany and Rhaegar's mother, with Rhaegar being father to Jon Snow and "father" to Aegon "Young Griff," she is forebear to them all, both directly and indirectly; if she was only incidentally important as Rhaegar's mother, the Ghost should have been clearer that their son would father the promised prince, all three parties to the prophecy. Why do you think Ashara is more significant than she is--as a "cloak and shield" for Jon Snow, one candidate for his mother?).  

So, while Rhaegar might have had some access to Ashara Dayne during his sojourn in Dorne, he could not have fathered either of her prospective children according to your argument (the child thought conceived at Harrenhal is both too soon and unimportant to the narrative, with confusion as to whether that child was male or female, who sired it, and even lacking a name for that baby, which serves only to shield Jon Snow's parents; if Ashara gave birth closer to Ned's arrival and her suicide, however, whilst Rhaegar could have fathered that child, that child cannot be Dany, who was born nine months after the Sack and conceived after Rhaegar's--her supposed father--death at the Trident; furthermore, all evidence suggest Ashara had committed suicide by the time Dany was actually born. What evidence do you have that she "faked" her death?). 

 

Rhaegar's Death, Ashara's Suicide, and Relation of Jon and Dany's Births: 

I'm not going to belabor the point, but Ashara's suicide near the time Ned arrived from the Tower of Joy, was eight or nine months prior to Dany's birth. The relationship between Jon and Dany's birth dates doesn't alter Dany's birth timing in any way, but Jon Snow's, meaning he was born during the Sack of King's Landing or up to a month afterward. Dany is always born nine months after the Sack in this relationship (a conception is not immediate upon ejaculation and can happen days later, and pregnancy can go overdue, lasting up to nine and a half months, so Dany being conceived a week prior to Rhaella's flight and after Rhaegar's death and born nine months after the Sack is well within the time frame for Rhaella and Aerys to be her parents; there's no evidence suggesting it was Ashara in that room, so you'd need to find evidence of Aerys raping her near the same time as he raped Rhaella, because all text evidence supports that Aerys raped his wife, Rhaella conceived, Rhaella brought a child to term, and that she died in childbed nine months after the Sack). 

This also means that Rhaegar can't be Dany's father, nor that Ashara can be her mother, even according to your own argument that Ashara (somehow, because it cannot be with the aid of the men who died at the Tower of Joy) traveled from Starfall (where Ned returned Dawn to her) to Dragonstone (where she gave birth at approximately the same time as Rhaella--the only way I see that happening is if the stress of the storm and the destruction of the Targaryen fleet induced labor, as both children were already due around that time anyway). Rhaegar would have been dead two weeks before the Sack (a week prior to Dany's conception), and departed King's Landing a month before the Sack (a pregnancy going overdue a full month, at least, is quite a stretch). It also requires Ashara Dayne to think that "faking" her death (how?) and fleeing to Dragonstone was a good idea, when the Daynes are known to display the same features as the Targaryens, and she could merely lie about who the father of her child was and keep the baby safe at Starfall (same as Ned merely lied about Jon Snow rather than associate him with Targaryens). Because there is no evidence that she ever had sex with either Rhaegar or Aerys, it seems strange for her to willingly associate her baby with the Targaryen bloodline, thereby endangering a child that could simply "pass" as a Dayne (which she was, at least on one side) for the rest of her life. 

 

Dany as Rhaegar/Ashara: 

I won't belabor the point of why Dany might view herself as or look up to Rhaegar, because I think I made a strong case that it is in no way out of the ordinary... but I'm not certain why you have determined that Dany is seeing from Ashara Dayne's perspective in the House of the Undying. Dany is standing where Rhaegar is staring off, thinking, which permits the author to point her out as the other head of the dragon alongside "Aegon"/"Young Griff" so that when Rhaegar (and Martin) tells us that "There must be one more. The dragon has three heads." we know to look for one more character who might fulfill the requirements (Jon Snow) as the promised prince. 

Was Dany placed in the perspective of anyone else in the HotU when viewing these visions? If so, why would Ashara Dayne be unique in this capacity as a "window" to these visions? If not, why do you single this vision/Ashara Dayne out as having so internal significance as to who Rhaegar was talking to or what that means? 

Also, if Dany were to be standing outside the window when Viserys stares off to fight the battle of the Trident in his mind in the quote I gave before, would she not mistake him as possibly looking at her, just the same as she mistakes Rhaegar as looking at or speaking to her in the HotU vision of Aegon's birth? This is the same sort of scenario you read into the vision, for example. 

 

 

 

As he lays dying, Aemon explicitly concludes "I should be with her, showing her the way. The dragon has three heads, but I am too old and frail to be one of them!"

 

Anyway, while I'm not buying the broader strokes of your argument, as it requires too many convoluted stretches, to many "if, thens" and "maybes" to work,  and requires re-writing a well established timeline for very little payoff, I'm curious about some of your ideas about the Others and what evidence you have to support your claims, so that's what interested me in your topic in the first place. I was not clear about that upfront, so maybe it felt to you that I was just picking on you or pushing my own theories, but I would not do that, and respect that this is your topic and appreciate you sharing and discussing your ideas and interpretations of the text. 

 

ETA: I see you've edited your original post again, changing a great deal of your argument. I haven't read it yet, so I'm just responding to your previous arguments here. Just to be clear so there's no confusion. I started this comment a couple days ago, prior to your edits, and do not have the time to go back and check on them yet. 

 

Again, apologies

Yes i do tend to, and i apologize, im not big on writing essays and try to keep it short and brief. Though i never edit what i said and redact anything, all im ever doing when i go in to edit is to fix a typo, or simply add more information to the body to help support what im saying. Such as quotes that im doing right now to illustrate my point using nothing but quotes.

That being said, some of the points you mention are valid points given my lack of reinforcing my theory. So im trying to make it as thorough as possible for every one with complete textual backing of the story, reinforcement of certain passages repeated, and exact phrasing of certain lines. Take the PWTP prophecy.

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys IV

Ser Barristan went on. "I saw your father and your mother wed as well. Forgive me, but there was no fondness there, and the realm paid dearly for that, my queen."

"Why did they wed if they did not love each other?"

"Your grandsire commanded it. A woods witch had told him that the prince was promised would be born of their line."

"A woods witch?" Dany was astonished.

"She came to court with Jenny of Oldstones. A stunted thing, grotesque to look upon. A dwarf, most people said, though dear to Lady Jenny, who always claimed that she was one of the children of the forest."

 

Barristan never say's "The Prince that was promised would be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella" All he does IMO is simply give a vague account of what was said. With no clear explanation of how it would work. We just assume the PTWP would be born from Aerys and Rhaella's direct line together, because Jaehaerys did. And so wed them. To which they have Rhaegar, who isnt the PTWP. If it's Jon, then it's born of the line of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Sure we can say that it could also alternatively mean simply their family line would produce it, but then, did anyone ever really think the PTWP wouldn't be born a Targaryen? We simply dont really know. 

 

Aerys+Ashara         Rhaella+Bonifer

    Dany            +           Jon

                     PTWP

I think is equally as logical as an alternative to still full fill it. The proof for such a scenario im structuring. Everything you say about that moment comes from Jamie. I can dissect that 8 ways from sunday and will once i get my quotes in place. Everything could've been staged, or even happen slightly different. Either way. Ill present all the evidence from the Text to show that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna and that Dany is the child of Ashara Dayne and either Rhaegar or Aerys. From there, people can decide for them selves, or offer further evidence to support either or. 

 

I've already shown how Brandon isn't the parent of any one, that's literally a dead topic IMO. Any child by him would be a year younger than Robb, at the oldest. So that totally rules out Dany or Jon. And Allyria? That just makes no sense at all. Specially given what Edric says about Ashara and Eddard falling in love at Harrenhal. 

 

Literally Jon and Dany are both Targs and thus, had to be hidden. This is big though and there is lots of clues that may or may not be tied. 

Lemon Trees and a Red Door may be a part of her parentage clues too. Dorne, all that. Some of that i have covered in another thread, but with out discussion of parentage. Just her later years after Dragonstone. 

 

Ultimately though, all these characters, Rhaegar, Lyanna, Ashara, Aemon, Jaehaerys, etc. They may have been trying to full fill this prophecy, and they all have obviously understood it differently. Neither of them so far being right. Unless you wanna argue Dany and Jon but then they both represent him in different ways, so maybe Jon is the Last Hero and Dany is TPTWP, but then Jon should get to wield Dawn etc. It all falls apart at the end of the day with that prophecy, and i dont think the prophecy is actually what they think it is. I cover that in my thread on Magic with my crack pot Ending Idea.

 

Jon and Dany simply are two magical people or two magical houses that need to come together to unite these house to produce the PTWP, who will be "Never Born".

 

So while i do think Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and Dany the child of either Aerys or Rhaegar, ultimately, it's not for the purposes people typically think.

 

Either way, ill put up all the evidence then we can all discuss it more thoroughly. I may have to start a new thread

 

Thank you for re-engaging

 

 

[AlaskanSandman]

14 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Huh? Right at the beginning of AGOT, Dany's PoV states that Rhaegar died for the woman he loved, and in ADWD you have it spelled black on white that Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna. 

What exactly are you referring to here?

No, he didn't. What he said was that Jon was born 8-9 months before Daenerys or thereabouts. Dany was born 9 months after the Sack, which means Jon was born at around the Sack or somewhat later.

Well... we don't know that for sure. We know he thought he needed one more child but if he intended to re-create the original trio, he should have named his daughter Visenya, not Rhaenys. What if he figured out that he was wrong about Aegon being PTWP, just like he had been wrong about himself being PTWP, and pursued the affair with Lyanna to start from scratch?

Nothing against it in the text, nor in favour.

Oh, I certainly don't intend to - "woman is important, too!" says Arya right in her first chapter, and she is damn right.

True, its also painted that Robert did too. Though it never say's Lyanna loved Rhaegar or even like him. Just that she like his song. Rhaegars love could've still theoretically been one way just like Roberts.

Pretty sure he also said Jon was born around the sack of K.L. Ill try to be sure to include that among the quoted text.

Why? Wasn't Rhaeny's the older of the two? And just going off the naming scheme so far. It could be wrong too as Martin can do what he wants. But just one of many small clues im trying to include to fully paint this picture, or the true picture, even if im wrong. 

True true, but again, R+L=J is pretty vague too. Heck, the book really only says that the options are Eddard and either Wylla, Ashara, or the Fisher Man's duaghter. The clues are there for R+L, but the idea is never actually out right said, and alot of people still argue against it haha but you guy's are all definitely right and i need to work harder to flush this all out more thoroughly

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Just a little correction here: the rape took place before Rhaegar's departure for the Trident, because Darry, who was also killed at the Trident, is guarding the door along with Jaime.

Exactly. These are all tiny clues I need to be mindful of in helping to construct my theory.

I must say though, how do we know Jamie didn't take second shift? That who ever was in the room wasn't already in there when he took his watch. Combined with the secret passages of Maegor's that Vary's the mummer knows about and is in the castle at that time, also used by Illyrio, Arya, Little Finger?, Jamie, and Tyrion at least. 

Same can be said of the circumstances to which Jamie supposedly heard of Rhaella being bruised by her maidens. Was Jamie in the room with them? Did he hear specifically Rhaella's name used? Or simply come half way on "..she was bruised with bite marks all over, it was horrible oh my etc" Then just make the assumption on his own given he was standing out side the royal rooms. Easy deduction to make. Maybe the girls were paid to talk specifically to where Jamie could hear them. 

What a luck, that this same guy, also happens to witness her leave so he can also vouch for Rhaella leaving K.L. in the morning. What luck. This woman hooded and cloaked that no, Jamie actually say's he doesnt see. Jamie say's that he never saw Rhaella again after that until the morning she left, but that she had been cloaked and hooded and unable to see her face. Yet, he had her the maidens talking. 

So, some one could've made Jamie think all of this. Maybe a certain mummer known for using those secret passages and employing disguises. A certain mummer present at K.L. who later supposedly also tries to save the other Targaryen children. Some one who tried to prevent the Sack of K.L. and Tywin being let into the castle. Maybe not. First i need to collect all the proper evidence i speak of that i know of, and hopefully some one else can throw out some other quotes, or notice something in the quotes to help back up or change the picture.

[AlaskanSandman]

A Feast for Crows - Jaime II

The sight had filled him with disquiet, reminding him of Aerys Targaryen and the way a burning would arouse him. A king has no secrets from his Kingsguard. Relations between Aerys and his queen had been strained during the last years of his reign. They slept apart and did their best to avoid each other during the waking hours. But whenever Aerys gave a man to the flames, Queen Rhaella would have a visitor in the night. The day he burned his mace-and-dagger Hand, Jaime and Jon Darry had stood at guard outside her bedchamber whilst the king took his pleasure. "You're hurting me," they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. "You're hurting me." In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted's screaming. "We are sworn to protect her as well," Jaime had finally been driven to say. "We are," Darry allowed, "but not from him."

Jaime had only seen Rhaella once after that, the morning of the day she left for Dragonstone. The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon's High Hill to the waiting ship, but he heard her maids whispering after she was gone. They said the queen looked as if some beast had savaged her, clawing at her thighs and chewing on her breasts. A crowned beast, Jaime knew.

[maudisdottir]

You're really not giving any evidence for your theories. You're working on the basis of:

• The books clearly state X;
• Nothing in the books says Y;
• I'm going with Y anyway based on my imagination.

George is entirely capable of misdirection, but he leaves clues. He doesn't tell us one thing, for five books, then pull a fast one on us by revealing something that has NO clues in five books, making all the previous clues redundant.

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Barristan never say's "The Prince that was promised would be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella" All he does IMO is simply give a vague account of what was said.

No he doesn't, he says "of their line". The full quote in context:

Quote

Ser Barristan went on. "I saw your father and mother wed as well. Forgive me, but there was no fondness there, and the realm paid dearly for that, my queen."

"Why did they wed if they did not love each other?"

"Your grandsire commanded it. A woods witch had told him that the prince who was promised would be born of their line."

That's not vague, that's precise. He didn't say "of their blood" or "their family" - TPTWP would be born of the line of Aerys & Rhaella, which is why their father commanded they get married. It's plainly there in the text.

[AlaskanSandman]

6 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

You're really not giving any evidence for your theories. You're working on the basis of:

• The books clearly state X;
• Nothing in the books says Y;
• I'm going with Y anyway based on my imagination.

George is entirely capable of misdirection, but he leaves clues. He doesn't tell us one thing, for five books, then pull a fast one on us by revealing something that has NO clues in five books, making all the previous clues redundant.

No he doesn't, he says "of their line". The full quote in context:

That's not vague, that's precise. He didn't say "of their blood" or "their family" - TPTWP would be born of the line of Aerys & Rhaella, which is why their father commanded they get married. It's plainly there in the text.

  Quote

The information about this tourney is problematic because some details in A Storm of Swords conflict. In response, George R. R. Martin suggested that the outlaw Simon Toyne was already dead by this time and the elderly Ser Barristan misremembered.[15]

 

FEBRUARY 12, 2001

SOME CONTINUITY ODDITIES

[Note: The first part of this entry is an excerpt from a mail in response to a note that there seems to be a continuity error in SoS, concerning the date of the death of the outlaw Simon Toyne and Rhaegar's defeat of him at the tourney at Storm's End, as reported by Ser Barristan early in the book and as recorded in The White Book.]

Ooops. Good catch...

As to this glitch... I think my defense in that the account in The White Book is correct. Ser Barristan is an old man, after all, recounting things that happened in his youth. You ought to see me and my friends sitting around at a con:

ME: Hey, remember Torcon 2, when Joe Haldeman found two naked girls in a bathtub of grape jello. Alice and Angela, wasn't it?

SOMEONE ELSE: It was lime jello, you idiot, and it was Big Mac, not Torcon. Three were three girls -- Betty, Veronica, and Lee.

JOE: Lime jello, two girls, it was Applesusan and Avedon, and it was Discon.

In other words, Ser Barristan is undoubtingly conflating events that happened at two or three different tourneys. Any way, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

 

 

 

So this pretty much makes my point clear about Barristan, peoples accounts being less than trust worthy always, and fans being a little too literal with what the books saying at all times. Barristan can't even keep track of Tourney, and he's a knight who knows only battle. You expect him to remember what exactly was said??

Literally there are two chapters that make this point clear that many people seem to be missing. One with Sam and one with Jon in which both chapters show the same scene but from different eyes. Sam's chapters shows him talking all this stuff and you get to see it, Jon, Jon just ignores him and thinks about other stuff. Every one see's and hears things differently, hence the problem with different POV's and the fun of it. 

[AlaskanSandman]

@Ygrain @maudisdottir @TheSeason

AGOT

*Lyanna & Rhaegar banging in a tower

*Eddard super honorable

*Eddard brings Jon home from the south

*Jon told he is definitely a Stark

*Robert killing Targ babies

*Eddard not ok with killing Targ babies

.........R+L=J.    Literally laid out in the first book. 

*Brandon died days before he was to wed cat. Cat wed's Eddard a year later, Rob born that same year= Brandon died to early to father Jon or Dany

*Eddard again super honorable

*Eddard not ok with killing Targ babies

*Eddard accused of Ashara's death by killing her brother and stealing her child. 

*Jon is the child Eddard got from Tower of Joy and child of R+L.

*Eddard's instant response is that he doesn't kill babies, then warns Cersei to get her children to safety, tipping his hand and getting him killed.

*Eddard took a child from Ashara that was not Jon.

Literally everything is laid out in the first books.

In fact, for 4 books, this is all we know about Ashara Dayne really other than rumors of her and Eddard. Which Jon and Dany are not the child of. 

The details of how everything happened is tricky for both kids exactly, but im working to try to get all the information together in a much more presentable and ordered manner. Ill line up everything the book says that i can and we can debate more in depth from there

[TheSeason]

On ‎9‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 0:56 AM, Ygrain said:

Just a little correction here: the rape took place before Rhaegar's departure for the Trident, because Darry, who was also killed at the Trident, is guarding the door along with Jaime.

Really? Lord Rossart served Aerys II as Hand for a fortnight, following Chelsted's burning (ETA: for "insulting" Aerys by quitting as Hand when he learned of the wildfire plot. It's clear this plot began in secret whilst Rhaegar was still in residence, but it makes more sense that Chelsted doesn't find out about until after Rhaegar's departure, else he should have approached the crown prince who was sort of "acting" as king, intending to set aside his father, instead of crazy Aerys who'd burn him alive for it--I mean, out of survival instinct alone, if not because it would be more efficient to have Rhaegar act, seize the throne, take control of his father and the wildfire cache, and negotiate with the rebels from his place as king, which might have ended the rebellion if he was willing to make peace. I guess I see this as sort of a "missed opportunity" event; had Jaime simply told Rhaegar what Aerys was planning before he left the city, I don't think Rhaegar would have left the city so long as his father had the authority to raze it to the ground on a whim, with all/half of their family and all of their subjects within.). This is a nice find, indicating a huge timeline conflict that I never really noticed before. 

ETA: forgot the most important quote, establishing timeline of Rossart's reign as Hand. Doy!

Quote

Tyrion I, Clash

Littlefinger laughed. "You're a braver man than me, Lannister. You do know the fate of our last two Hands?"

"Two? If you mean to frighten me, why not say four?"

"Four?" Littlefinger raised an eyebrow. "Did the Hands before Lord Arryn meet some dire end in the Tower? I'm afraid I was too young to pay them much mind."

"Aerys Targaryen's last Hand was killed during the Sack of King's Landing, though I doubt he'd had time to settle into the Tower. He was only Hand for a fortnight. The one before him was burned to death. And before them came two others who died landless and penniless in exile, and counted themselves lucky. I believe my lord father was the last Hand to depart King's Landing with his name, properties, and parts all intact."

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Rossart

Quote

Tyrion V, Clash

Tyrion smiled up at him. "When you tell me to dress warmly, I dress warmly. When you tell me to be careful, well . . ." He gave a shrug. "I've seen enough. Perhaps you would be so good as to escort me back up to my litter?"

"It would be my great, hmmm, pleasure, my lord." Hallyne lifted the lamp and led the way back to the stairs. "It was good of you to visit us. A great honor, hmmm. It has been too long since the King's Hand graced us with his presence. Not since Lord Rossart, and he was of our order. That was back in King Aerys's day. King Aerys took a great interest in our work."

King Aerys used you to roast the flesh off his enemies. His brother Jaime had told him a few stories of the Mad King and his pet pyromancers. "Joffrey will be interested as well, I have no doubt." Which is why I'd best keep him well away from you.

 

Tyrion XI, Clash

"No, no," Hallyne squeaked, "the sums are accurate, I swear. We have been, hmmm, most fortunate, my lord Hand. Another cache of Lord Rossart's was found, more than three hundred jars. Under the Dragonpit! Some whores have been using the ruins to entertain their patrons, and one of them fell through a patch of rotted floor into a cellar. When he felt the jars, he mistook them for wine. He was so drunk he broke the seal and drank some."

"There was a prince who tried that once," said Tyrion dryly. "I haven't seen any dragons rising over the city, so it would seem it didn't work this time either." The Dragonpit atop the hill of Rhaenys had been abandoned for a century and a half. He supposed it was as good a place as any to store wildfire, and better than most, but it would have been nice if the late Lord Rossart had told someone. "Three hundred jars, you say? That still does not account for these totals. You are several thousand jars ahead of the best estimate you gave me when last we met."

"Yes, yes, that's so." Hallyne mopped at his pale brow with the sleeve of his black-and-scarlet robe. "We have been working very hard, my lord Hand, hmmm."

 

Jaime II, Storm

A moon's turn later, a royal raven arrived at Casterly Rock to inform him that he had been chosen for the Kingsguard. He was commanded to present himself to the king during the great tourney at Harrenhal to say his vows and don his cloak.

Jaime's investiture freed him from Lysa Tully. Elsewise, nothing went as planned. His father had never been more furious. He could not object openly—Cersei had judged that correctly—but he resigned the Handship on some thin pretext and returned to Casterly Rock, taking his daughter with him. Instead of being together, Cersei and Jaime just changed places, and he found himself alone at court, guarding a mad king while four lesser men took their turns dancing on knives in his father's ill-fitting shoes. So swiftly did the Hands rise and fall that Jaime remembered their heraldry better than their faces. The horn-of-plenty Hand and the dancing griffins Hand had both been exiled, the mace-and-dagger Hand dipped in wildfire and burned alive. Lord Rossart had been the last. His sigil had been a burning torch; an unfortunate choice, given the fate of his predecessor, but the alchemist had been elevated largely because he shared the king's passion for fire. I ought to have drowned Rossart instead of gutting him.

Brienne was still awaiting his answer. Jaime said, "You are not old enough to have known Aerys Targaryen . . ."

 

Jaime II, Storm

But when he closed his eyes, it was Aerys Targaryen he saw, pacing alone in his throne room, picking at his scabbed and bleeding hands. The fool was always cutting himself on the blades and barbs of the Iron Throne. Jaime had slipped in through the king's door, clad in his golden armor, sword in hand. The golden armor, not the white, but no one ever remembers that. Would that I had taken off that damned cloak as well.

When Aerys saw the blood on his blade, he demanded to know if it was Lord Tywin's. "I want him dead, the traitor. I want his head, you'll bring me his head, or you'll burn with all the rest. All the traitors. Rossart says they are inside the walls! He's gone to make them a warm welcome. Whose blood? Whose?"

"Rossart's," answered Jaime.

 

Jaime V, Storm

He floated in heat, in memory. "After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him." Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? "He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins' men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. He saw traitors everywhere, and Varys was always there to point out any he might have missed. So His Grace commanded his alchemists to place caches of wildfire all over King's Landing. Beneath Baelor's Sept and the hovels of Flea Bottom, under stables and storehouses, at all seven gates, even in the cellars of the Red Keep itself.

"Everything was done in the utmost secrecy by a handful of master pyromancers. They did not even trust their own acolytes to help. The queen's eyes had been closed for years, and Rhaegar was busy marshaling an army. But Aerys's new mace-and-dagger Hand was not utterly stupid, and with Rossart, Belis, and Garigus coming and going night and day, he became suspicious. Chelsted, that was his name, Lord Chelsted." It had come back to him suddenly, with the telling. "I'd thought the man craven, but the day he confronted Aerys he found some courage somewhere. He did all he could to dissuade him. He reasoned, he jested, he threatened, and finally he begged. When that failed he took off his chain of office and flung it down on the floor. Aerys burnt him alive for that, and hung his chain about the neck of Rossart, his favorite pyromancer. The man who had cooked Lord Rickard Stark in his own armor. And all the time, I stood by the foot of the Iron Throne in my white plate, still as a corpse, guarding my liege and all his sweet secrets.

"My Sworn Brothers were all away, you see, but Aerys liked to keep me close. I was my father's son, so he did not trust me. He wanted me where Varys could watch me, day and night. So I heard it all." He remembered how Rossart's eyes would shine when he unrolled his maps to show where the substance must be placed. Garigus and Belis were the same. "Rhaegar met Robert on the Trident, and you know what happened there. When the word reached court, Aerys packed the queen off to Dragonstone with Prince Viserys. Princess Elia would have gone as well, but he forbade it. Somehow he had gotten it in his head that Prince Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident, but he thought he could keep Dorne loyal so long as he kept Elia and Aegon by his side. The traitors want my city, I heard him tell Rossart, but I'll give them naught but ashes. Let Robert be king over charred bones and cooked meat. The Targaryens never bury their dead, they burn them. Aerys meant to have the greatest funeral pyre of them all. Though if truth be told, I do not believe he truly expected to die. Like Aerion Brightfire before him, Aerys thought the fire would transform him . . . that he would rise again, reborn as a dragon, and turn all his enemies to ash.

***

"Ned Stark was racing south with Robert's van, but my father's forces reached the city first. Pycelle convinced the king that his Warden of the West had come to defend him, so he opened the gates. The one time he should have heeded Varys, and he ignored him. My father had held back from the war, brooding on all the wrongs Aerys had done him and determined that House Lannister should be on the winning side. The Trident decided him.

"It fell to me to hold the Red Keep, but I knew we were lost. I sent to Aerys asking his leave to make terms. My man came back with a royal command. 'Bring me your father's head, if you are no traitor.' Aerys would have no yielding. Lord Rossart was with him, my messenger said. I knew what that meant.

"When I came on Rossart, he was dressed as a common man-at-arms, hurrying to a postern gate. I slew him first. Then I slew Aerys, before he could find someone else to carry his message to the pyromancers. Days later, I hunted down the others and slew them as well. Belis offered me gold, and Garigus wept for mercy. Well, a sword's more merciful than fire, but I don't think Garigus much appreciated the kindness I showed him."

 

Epilogue, Dance

Ser Kevan wished that he could share his certainty. He had known Jon Connington, slightly—a proud youth, the most headstrong of the gaggle of young lordlings who had gathered around Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, competing for his royal favor. Arrogant, but able and energetic. That, and his skill at arms, was why Mad King Aerys had named him Hand. Old Lord Merryweather's inaction had allowed the rebellion to take root and spread, and Aerys wanted someone young and vigorous to match Robert's own youth and vigor. "Too soon," Lord Tywin Lannister had declared when word of the king's choice had reached Casterly Rock. "Connington is too young, too bold, too eager for glory."

The Battle of the Bells had proved the truth of that. Ser Kevan had expected that afterward Aerys would have no choice but to summon Tywin once more … but the Mad King had turned to the Lords Chelsted and Rossart instead, and paid for it with life and crown. That was all so long ago, though. If this is indeed Jon Connington, he will be a different man. Older, harder, more seasoned … more dangerous. "Connington may have more than the Golden Company. It is said he has a Targaryen pretender."

"A feigned boy is what he has," said Randyll Tarly.

 

Jaime II, Storm

A new stepfather, most like. Jaime knew the look in his sister's eyes. He had seen it before, most recently on the night of Tommen's wedding, when she burned the Tower of the Hand. The green light of the wildfire had bathed the face of the watchers, so they looked like nothing so much as rotting corpses, a pack of gleeful ghouls, but some of the corpses were prettier than others. Even in the baleful glow, Cersei had been beautiful to look upon. She'd stood with one hand on her breast, her lips parted, her green eyes shining. She is crying, Jaime had realized, but whether it was from grief or ecstasy he could not have said.

The sight had filled him with disquiet, reminding him of Aerys Targaryen and the way a burning would arouse him. A king has no secrets from his Kingsguard. Relations between Aerys and his queen had been strained during the last years of his reign. They slept apart and did their best to avoid each other during the waking hours. But whenever Aerys gave a man to the flames, Queen Rhaella would have a visitor in the night. The day he burned his mace-and-dagger Hand, Jaime and Jon Darry had stood at guard outside her bedchamber whilst the king took his pleasure. "You're hurting me," they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. "You're hurting me." In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted's screaming. "We are sworn to protect her as well," Jaime had finally been driven to say. "We are," Darry allowed, "but not from him."

Jaime had only seen Rhaella once after that, the morning of the day she left for Dragonstone. The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon's High Hill to the waiting ship, but he heard her maids whispering after she was gone. They said the queen looked as if some beast had savaged her, clawing at her thighs and chewing on her breasts. A crowned beast, Jaime knew.

ETA: This sequence gives us: 

Tywin Lannister--Hand until Harrenhal Tourney/Jaime's investiture, whereupon he resigns upon a pretext and returns to Casterly Rock, returning only upon the Sack of King's Landing

Orton Merryweather--Hand from Harrenhal to Pre-Battle of the Bells (possibly Battle of Ashford and Robert's retreat northward), thereafter exiled

Jon Connington---Hand from Pre-Battle of the Bells to Battle of the Bells, thereafter exiled

*Rhaegar returns from south, urges father to appoint Tywin to Handship; Tywin does not answer; Kevan apparently does not know that Aerys applied to Tywin for aid during this period* (This also means, Rhaegar returned from the south in the early months of the war, sometime following the Battle of the Bells and Connington's exile, and spent the remainder of the war marshalling his army until the Battle of the Trident, with the long lull in between. It was Lyanna who was missing for a year, not Rhaegar; they spent only a few months together, it appears, from the "new year" following the False Spring to the Battle of the Bells, whereupon Hightower locates Rhaegar and gives him his father's command/request to return to King's Landing and put down the rebellion.)

Chelsted--Hand from Battle of the Bells (aftermath) to His Burning by Wildfire upon Resignation

Rossart--Hand from Chelsted's Burning/Resignation to Sack of King's Landing

Yet we also have this from Jaime about Rhaella's rape the night Chelsted was burned, also from Jaime II:

Quote

The sight had filled him with disquiet, reminding him of Aerys Targaryen and the way a burning would arouse him. A king has no secrets from his Kingsguard. Relations between Aerys and his queen had been strained during the last years of his reign. They slept apart and did their best to avoid each other during the waking hours. But whenever Aerys gave a man to the flames, Queen Rhaella would have a visitor in the night. The day he burned his mace-and-dagger Hand, Jaime and Jon Darry had stood at guard outside her bedchamber whilst the king took his pleasure. "You're hurting me," they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. "You're hurting me." In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted's screaming. "We are sworn to protect her as well," Jaime had finally been driven to say. "We are," Darry allowed, "but not from him."

Jaime had only seen Rhaella once after that, the morning of the day she left for Dragonstone. The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon's High Hill to the waiting ship, but he heard her maids whispering after she was gone. They said the queen looked as if some beast had savaged her, clawing at her thighs and chewing on her breasts. A crowned beast, Jaime knew.

The only way to reconcile these two events is if Rhaegar and Darry left that night, which would be ludicrous, or early the next morning following Rhaella's rape... However, this does not jive with the date of Rhaegar and Darry's deaths, on the Trident, the event being two weeks after their departure from King's Landing. Of their departure we get only this (edited to expand quote, suggestive of "daytime" as their departure--also suggestive of Rhaegar as "acting" king during this period: Jaime calls Rhaegar "Your Grace!" but Joffrey/Tommen, who are also "crown prince" for a time are never called "Your Grace" during the period of another king's reign...): 

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Jaime I, Feast

The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. "Your Grace," Jaime had pleaded, "let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine."

Prince Rhaegar shook his head. "My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour."

Jaime's anger had risen up in his throat. "I am not a crutch. I am a knight of the Kingsguard."

"Then guard the king," Ser Jon Darry snapped at him. "When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey."

Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime's shoulder. "When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return."

Those were the last words Rhaegar Targaryen ever spoke to him. Outside the gates an army had assembled, whilst another descended on the Trident. So the Prince of Dragonstone mounted up and donned his tall black helm, and rode forth to his doom.

And we know Dany was born a full nine months after the Sack of King's Landing (which itself was a fortnight after Rhaegar's death on the Trident, with Rhaella fleeing with Viserys to Dragonstone a week after Rhaegar was killed as his army fled south to King's Landing for protection/to regroup). As I said in my post above, a pregnancy going overdue two weeks or a conception delayed a few days is in no way abnormal, but trying to weasel at least a full month into this timespan is extremely difficult. 

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Daenerys I, Game

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King's Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father's throat with a golden sword.

She had been born on Dragonstone nine moons after their flight, while a raging summer storm threatened to rip the island fastness apart. They said that storm was terrible. The Targaryen fleet was smashed while it lay at anchor, and huge stone blocks were ripped from the parapets and sent hurtling into the wild waters of the narrow sea. Her mother had died birthing her, and for that her brother Viserys had never forgiven her.

She did not remember Dragonstone either. They had run again, just before the Usurper's brother set sail with his new-built fleet. By then only Dragonstone itself, the ancient seat of their House, had remained of the Seven Kingdoms that had once been theirs. It would not remain for long. The garrison had been prepared to sell them to the Usurper, but one night Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men had broken into the nursery and stolen them both, along with her wet nurse, and set sail under cover of darkness for the safety of the Braavosian coast.

This information is corroborated by Stannis, who claims to have sailed in the next day, only to find that Willem Darry had taken Viserys and Dany across the Narrow Sea, "stealing" them from the soldiers who'd hoped to sell them to Robert to their deaths. It's been corroborated by others as well. This is an iconic storm with monumental political significance, so messing with or mussing up the date of this event would be very strange. 

I can only conclude there was some sort of mistake made by the author, because Jaime should have been guarding Rhaella's door alone that night, not alongside any of his sworn brothers, who should have been elsewhere... but that isn't possible, given that Jaime would have barged into the room, if it were solely him. The other option I can think of is that Jaime's confused Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, with his sworn brother, Jon Darry, in this memory... but that's also ludicrous crackpot, I admit. ETA: the very last crackpot reconciliation I can make is that they waited two weeks, in wartime, with Crown Prince Rhaegar off to battle the Usurper, to name Rossart as Hand of the King, but I really don't see any evidence of a gap between Chelsted and Rossart. Do you guys have any evidence of one?

Hmm... This is a cool catch, whatever it means (mistaken timeline by author or mistaken memory by Jaime). Do you have any quotes or insight that might reconcile this information and make sense of the timeline? Thanks!

[AlaskanSandman]

44 minutes ago, TheSeason said:

Really? Lord Rossart served Aerys II as Hand for a fortnight, following Chelsted's burning (ETA: for "insulting" Aerys by quitting as Hand when he learned of the wildfire plot. It's clear this plot began in secret whilst Rhaegar was still in residence, but it makes more sense that Chelsted doesn't find out about until after Rhaegar's departure, else he should have approached the crown prince who was sort of "acting" as king, intending to set aside his father, instead of crazy Aerys who'd burn him alive for it--I mean, out of survival instinct alone, if not because it would be more efficient to have Rhaegar act, seize the throne, take control of his father and the wildfire cache, and negotiate with the rebels from his place as king, which might have ended the rebellion if he was willing to make peace. I guess I see this as sort of a "missed opportunity" event; had Jaime simply told Rhaegar what Aerys was planning before he left the city, I don't think Rhaegar would have left the city so long as his father had the authority to raze it to the ground on a whim, with all/half of their family and all of their subjects within.). This is a nice find, indicating a huge timeline conflict that I never really noticed before. 

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Rossart

Yet we also have this from Jaime about Rhaella's rape the night Chelsted was burned, also from Jaime II:

The only way to reconcile these two events is if Rhaegar and Darry left that night, which would be ludicrous, or early the next morning following Rhaella's rape... However, this does not jive with the date of Rhaegar and Darry's deaths, on the Trident, the event being two weeks after their departure from King's Landing. Of their departure we get only this: 

And we know Dany was born a full nine months after the Sack of King's Landing (which itself was a fortnight after Rhaegar's death on the Trident, with Rhaella fleeing with Viserys to Dragonstone a week after Rhaegar was killed as his army fled south to King's Landing for protection/to regroup). As I said in my post above, a pregnancy going overdue two weeks or a conception delayed a few days is in no way abnormal, but trying to weasel at least a full month into this timespan is extremely difficult. 

This information is corroborated by Stannis, who claims to have sailed in the next day, only to find that Willem Darry had taken Viserys and Dany across the Narrow Sea, "stealing" them from the soldiers who'd hoped to sell them to Robert to their deaths. It's been corroborated by others as well. This is an iconic storm with monumental political significance, so messing with or mussing up the date of this event would be very strange. 

I can only conclude there was some sort of mistake made by the author, because Jaime should have been guarding Rhaella's door alone that night, not alongside any of his sworn brothers, who should have been elsewhere... but that isn't possible, given that Jaime would have barged into the room, if it were solely him. The other option I can think of is that Jaime's confused Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, with his sworn brother, Jon Darry, in this memory... but that's also ludicrous crackpot, I admit. 

Hmm... This is a cool catch, whatever it means (mistaken timeline by author or mistaken memory by Jaime). Do you have any quotes or insight that might reconcile this information and make sense of the timeline? Thanks!

Well lets keep this going

A Feast for Crows - Jaime I

And all for naught. They found only darkness, dust, and rats. And dragons, lurking down below. He remembered the sullen orange glow of the coals in the iron dragon's mouth. The brazier warmed a chamber at the bottom of a shaft where half a dozen tunnels met. On the floor he'd found a scuffed mosaic of the three-headed dragon of House Targaryen done in tiles of black and red. I know you, Kingslayer, the beast seemed to be saying. I have been here all the time, waiting for you to come to me. And it seemed to Jaime that he knew that voice, the iron tones that had once belonged to Rhaegar, Prince of Dragonstone.

The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. "Your Grace," Jaime had pleaded, "let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine."

Prince Rhaegar shook his head. "My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour."

 

Edit-

Jaime V, Storm

He floated in heat, in memory. "After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him." Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? "He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins' men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. He saw traitors everywhere, and Varys was always there to point out any he might have missed. So His Grace commanded his alchemists to place caches of wildfire all over King's Landing. Beneath Baelor's Sept and the hovels of Flea Bottom, under stables and storehouses, at all seven gates, even in the cellars of the Red Keep itself.

"Everything was done in the utmost secrecy by a handful of master pyromancers. They did not even trust their own acolytes to help. The queen's eyes had been closed for years, and Rhaegar was busy marshaling an army. But Aerys's new mace-and-dagger Hand was not utterly stupid, and with Rossart, Belis, and Garigus coming and going night and day, he became suspicious. Chelsted, that was his name, Lord Chelsted." It had come back to him suddenly, with the telling. "I'd thought the man craven, but the day he confronted Aerys he found some courage somewhere. He did all he could to dissuade him. He reasoned, he jested, he threatened, and finally he begged. When that failed he took off his chain of office and flung it down on the floor. Aerys burnt him alive for that, and hung his chain about the neck ofRossart, his favorite pyromancer. The man who had cooked Lord Rickard Stark in his own armor. And all the time, I stood by the foot of the Iron Throne in my white plate, still as a corpse, guarding my liege and all his sweet secrets.

"My Sworn Brothers were all away, you see, but Aerys liked to keep me close. I was my father's son, so he did not trust me. He wanted me where Varys could watch me, day and night. So I heard it all." He remembered how Rossart's eyes would shine when he unrolled his maps to show where the substance must be placed. Garigus and Belis were the same. "Rhaegar met Robert on the Trident, and you know what happened there. When the word reached court, Aerys packed the queen off to Dragonstone with Prince Viserys. Princess Elia would have gone as well, but he forbade it. Somehow he had gotten it in his head that Prince Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident, but he thought he could keep Dorne loyal so long as he kept Elia and Aegon by his side. The traitors want my city, I heard him tell Rossart, but I'll give them naught but ashes. Let Robert be king over charred bones and cooked meat. The Targaryens never bury their dead, they burn them. Aerys meant to have the greatest funeral pyre of them all. Though if truth be told, I do not believe he truly expected to die. Like Aerion Brightfire before him, Aerys thought the fire would transform him . . . that he would rise again, reborn as a dragon, and turn all his enemies to ash.

 

 

 

Wanted to save this and point this out about what im saying about the rape and Vary's possible involvement in deceiving Jamie, along with when Rhaella left.