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Sir Hedge of Hog

A Knife in the heart

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Since Jon has a convenient scar around his heart, do u think he will have dragon glass put in it, so he can become the night king, or to aid him in fighting the night king?

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The scar itself is "irrelevant", since the dragon glass would have to cut trough living tissue and into his heart regardless of the scar is there or not. It doesn't exactly make the process easier nor less painful.

It could be a case of foreshadowing, but I don't think it is. I'm not a follower of the "There must always be a lichking nightking"-theory myself.
Besides, all the Children of the Forest are dead at this point (at least that's what we're lead to believe), and their magic with them, so who would turn Jon into the new Nightking? The actual Nightking? Seems implausible. :P

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No, I don't. I wouldn't bet money on it, but I don't think he will. 

There are several arguments that can be made for why he (and a lot of other main characters) will survive; The original outline, GRRM's inspiration from the War of the Roses, and the alleged LotR-ending all point to his survival.
In addition, why go trough all the hassle of making him end up as the true heir to the kingdom if he's gonna die 1 season later?
Why have him killed and resurrected in the first place if he's gonna end up dead anyway? Why not skip his first death altogether? 

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8 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

No, I don't. I wouldn't bet money on it, but I don't think he will. 

There are several arguments that can be made for why he (and a lot of other main characters) will survive; The original outline, GRRM's inspiration from the War of the Roses, and the alleged LotR-ending all point to his survival.
In addition, why go trough all the hassle of making him end up as the true heir to the kingdom if he's gonna die 1 season later?
Why have him killed and resurrected in the first place if he's gonna end up dead anyway? Why not skip his first death altogether? 

I am of the opposite belief. I think Jon will die in the end.

To me, because he has died once, is enough to suggest he will die again. I know the show hasn't played much on the effects death has had on Jon, but it seems senseless to me that he can just go about living a normal life. I don't think the idea that a man that has been brought back to life ends up sitting on the Iron Throne is a route GRRM intended to go down. For me, it seems more likely Jon, having died once, will be prepared, at some point, to make the ultimate sacrifice and die again, probably to save the realm, Daenerys and their child/children. The fact the show has set it up so much for Jon to be the 'heir to the Iron Throne', suggests to me his failure to ever actually sit the Iron Throne, despite probably being the one to save the realm from the Others and the Army of the Dead and having created his own heir with Dany, could be part of the 'bittersweet ending' we are meant to be expecting.

Just my thoughts, though.

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I won't say you're wrong. :)
If he ends up dying I expect him to sacrifice himself in order to protect someone, most likely Daenerys and their child.

While I do believe he will survive, Jon is higher on my deathwatch-list than Daenerys (assuming she get's pregnant that is.)

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1 hour ago, MinscS2 said:

I won't say you're wrong. :)
If he ends up dying I expect him to sacrifice himself in order to protect someone, most likely Daenerys and their child.

While I do believe he will survive, Jon is higher on my deathwatch-list than Daenerys (assuming she get's pregnant that is.)

I agree with the pregnancy being the key piece regarding Dany's chances of surving or not. As the main female character I think she will realize her arc and have a moment where she feels at home. 

If she gets pregnant she is safe, since she will feel at home when her kid is born and it would be tragic if she died before and I don't think there is enough time for her to have a kid before the war is won. She could conceivably die in childbirth although that would be lame it would be after the war regardless. 

If she is not pregnant, than she could easily feel at home the moment she accepts Jon as her nephew and than could die at any point afterwards. So all bets are really off in that scenario in terms of timing.

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2 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

why go trough all the hassle of making him end up as the true heir to the kingdom if he's gonna die 1 season later?

Maybe the point of reveiling his parentage, wasn't to put him on Iron Throne, but to make him a prince that was promised, a hero that will save 7K from NK. He's Targaryen, he's the last dragon, a prince that was promissed, new Azor Ahai, and as nearly all greatest heroes, he will die in the end.

Quote

Why have him killed and resurrected in the first place if he's gonna end up dead anyway? Why not skip his first death altogether? 

His death was a legal excuse to get him out of Night's Watch, without making him an oathbreaker.

15 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

I agree with the pregnancy being the key piece regarding Dany's chances of surving or not.

Her pregnancy may not save her.

There are theories that both Jon and Dany will die. Jon will sacrifise himself to defeat NK, and Dany will die during childbirth. And Tyrion will be Regent of 7K and little King's/Queen's Hand.

Years ago George Martin said that there will be 5 major characters that will be alive near the end - Arya, Bran, Jon, Dany, Tyrion. But first of all that was many many years ago, at that point of time GRRM also planned love triangle between JonXAryaXTyrion. Also even if they will be still alive near the end, doesn't mean that they will survive in Big Battle, they may die in the very end of it. Additionally GRRM may end his book one way, and GOT may end differently.

So Dany's pregnancy is not a plot armor.

Edited by Megorova

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1 minute ago, Megorova said:

Maybe the point of reveiling his parentage, wasn't to put him on Iron Throne, but to make him a prince that was promised, a hero that will save 7K from NK. He's Targaryen, he's the last dragon, a prince that was promissed, new Azor Ahai, and as nearly all greatest heroes, he will die in the end.

His death was a legal excuse to get him out of Night's Watch, without making him an oathbreaker.

Maybe... Targaryens truly seize to exist. Jon dies after defeating NK, Dany may yet live to be an old woman but never having children. Maybe the dragons and all magic eventually die, too. Kingdoms will continue battling and settling like they have until today.

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jon dieing is not bittersweet...but tragic...but that is the way I think it will go in the end. dany will survive as she is gonna get pregnant

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12 minutes ago, Deminelle said:

Targaryens truly seize to exist. Jon dies after defeating NK, Dany may yet live to be an old woman but never having children.

Not sure how it will go in the book, but in GOT Dany will give birth to Jon's child. I'm 100% sure of that. Also by the end of book 5, Dany became fertile again, so most likely in the books she also will have a baby. Which doesn't mean that she herself will live long after that.

10 minutes ago, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

jon dieing is not bittersweet...but tragic.

It may be tragic for me and you, but who knows what 'bittersweet' means in George's definition.

Maybe for him bittersweet is that both Jon and Dany saved everyone, sacrificed everything, but in the end they both died, and were unable to live as a family and raise their child, but their child became ruler of Seven Kingdoms.

Edited by Megorova

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Speaking of something through the heart, curious what your thoughts are regarding Daenerys. 

I think there is foreshadowing for Daenerys to sit the iron throne:

s6e10: Dario tells her she will get that crown she wants and he just hopes it makes her happy. 

S5e6: Jorah and Tyrion talk about the world when she wins the throne

But there was certainly foreshadowing for her dying with an arrow through the heart this year: 

Tyrion in s7e6, Jorah in s7e7, Tyrion in s7e3

Then there is foreshadowing that can cut both ways:

Dany e7e6 “we will talk about the succession when I wear the crown."

At first glance I thought one of these is clearly false foreshadowing.

But one way they could both be accurate foreshadowing is if the arrow through the heart is not an actual arrow but a symbolic one. 

So she ends up sitting the throne but with a heavy heart in some way. That could mean Jon either dying or greatly disapointing her in some way. 

 

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13 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

But there was certainly foreshadowing for her dying with an arrow through the heart this year: 

Tyrion in s7e6, Jorah in s7e7, Tyrion in s7e3

Love's arrow? They already took down one of her dragons.

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Well, I think there may be an asassination attempt on Dany, which would stir things up a bit, and there has been talk of Beric reviving someone a la lady stoneheart. People are asking what is his purpose. However, she will get pregnant and I think it might be twins or triplets and so she is safe until they are born. Jon could disappoint her, but I cant see him leaving his children to be brought up as bastards. There is talk of marriage. 

The words of beric and jon make me think 'We are the shield of men and perhaps that is enough' - maybe he has to become this shield (jon) metaphorically and so has to leave the mortal world behind.

This would link into the ending of the LotR, a book I adored, but was really struck by the ending.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Maybe the point of reveiling his parentage, wasn't to put him on Iron Throne, but to make him a prince that was promised, a hero that will save 7K from NK. He's Targaryen, he's the last dragon, a prince that was promissed, new Azor Ahai, and as nearly all greatest heroes, he will die in the end.
Maybe, it's plausible. He's not the last dragon however (Dany is younger than Jon, but not by much).
I do believe that Jon will survive, but I wouldn't bet money on it.

His death was a legal excuse to get him out of Night's Watch, without making him an oathbreaker.
Fair enough. Seems a abit convoluted, but it's something I can work with.

Her pregnancy may not save her.
No it's by no means a guarantee. It might very well be the very thing that kills her in the end if she dies in childbirth (would be a very lame way for her to go though.)
Her getting pregnant would however most likely buy her 9 more months, since I can't see GRRM or D&D killing of a pregnant Dany.

There are theories that both Jon and Dany will die. Jon will sacrifise himself to defeat NK, and Dany will die during childbirth. And Tyrion will be Regent of 7K and little King's/Queen's Hand.
I've read these. Most of them came after the leaked S8 scripts which where confirmed as fake.

Years ago George Martin said that there will be 5 major characters that will be alive near the end - Arya, Bran, Jon, Dany, Tyrion. But first of all that was many many years ago, at that point of time GRRM also planned love triangle between JonXAryaXTyrion. Also even if they will be still alive near the end, doesn't mean that they will survive in Big Battle, they may die in the very end of it. Additionally GRRM may end his book one way, and GOT may end differently.
Technically he said that they would "survive", not "be alive until the final showdown". 20 years is a long time however so yeah, things may very well have changed.

 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

It may be tragic for me and you, but who knows what 'bittersweet' means in George's definition.

Maybe for him bittersweet is that both Jon and Dany saved everyone, sacrificed everything, but in the end they both died, and were unable to live as a family and raise their child, but their child became ruler of Seven Kingdoms.

We actually know what is considered "bittersweet" in GRRM's mind: The ending of LotR. He has stated numerous times that it's the same sort of bittersweet ending that Tolkien wrote for LotR that he wants to have in ASoIaF. 
I made a long post regarding how a LotR-ending would look like in ASoIaF here. TLDR: It's more sweet than bitter, and no main character actually dies. Many are however scarred for life and are prevented from having a truly happy ever after, nor will they be able to go back to the life they once lived.

Replies in bold. :)

48 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Speaking of something through the heart, curious what your thoughts are regarding Daenerys. 

I think there is foreshadowing for Daenerys to sit the iron throne:

s6e10: Dario tells her she will get that crown she wants and he just hopes it makes her happy. 

S5e6: Jorah and Tyrion talk about the world when she wins the throne

But there was certainly foreshadowing for her dying with an arrow through the heart this year: 

Tyrion in s7e6, Jorah in s7e7, Tyrion in s7e3

Then there is foreshadowing that can cut both ways:

Dany e7e6 “we will talk about the succession when I wear the crown."

At first glance I thought one of these is clearly false foreshadowing.

But one way they could both be accurate foreshadowing is if the arrow through the heart is not an actual arrow but a symbolic one. 

So she ends up sitting the throne but with a heavy heart in some way. That could mean Jon either dying or greatly disapointing her in some way. 

 

While this show loves to foreshadow things, not everything is foreshadowing.
Tyrion (and later Jorah) being worried about Daenerys safety is logical, especially for Tyrion who saw archers fire at her and a scorpion nearly downing Drogon at the loot train battle. In fact, I'd be more worried (and would almost consider it a continuity error) if Tyrion didn't bring up Daenerys safety (and by extension, successor) after the things he saw in episode 4.

The arrow trough the heart being a metaphor for heartache is a good catch though. While I do believe that Jon and Dany will survive, I can also see Jon dying in a final act of heroism. A heartbroken (and pregnant) Daenerys will end up on the throne she wanted for so long, but now when it's hers, she no longer actually wants it. We already see a shift in her priorities in S7E7. The throne was essentially hers for the taking if she really wanted, but she decided to ignore it for now and go north, not only to to help save the realm, but since this would increase the chances of survival for the man she loves. I wonder how much her love for Jon actually plays a part in her decision to go north by the time she did.

 

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58 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

No it's by no means a guarantee. It might very well be the very thing that kills her in the end if she dies in childbirth (would be a very lame way for her to go though.)

Joanna Lannister, Lyanna Stark, Rhaella Targaryen <- Dany's mother. All three died in childbirth. Dany may be a great hero, but she's still just a woman, thus she isn't protected from that sort of possibility, no matter how lame that is.

58 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

I made a long post regarding how a LotR-ending would look like in ASoIaF here.

I'll read that post, but for now I can't even imagine how ASOIAF can have an ending similar to Lord of Rings.

If Dany and Jon, are Arwen and Aragorn, then Tyrion is Frodo? :huh: Then Sam is probably Jaime <_< And Cersei is Gollum :blink:

Just kidding ^_^

Edited by Megorova

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Perhaps the metaphorical arrow in the heart for dany is something jon does to her - perhaps rejecting her after he finds out about his parentage 

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39 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Joanna Lannister, Lyanna Stark, Rhaella Targaryen <- Dany's mother. All three died in childbirth. Dany may be a great hero, but she's still just a woman, thus she isn't protected from that sort of possibility, no matter how lame that is.

I'll read that post, but for now I can't even imagine how ASOIAF can have an ending similar to Lord of Rings.

If Dany and Jon, are Arwen and Aragorn, then Tyrion is Frodo? :huh: Then Sam is probably Jaime <_< And Cersei is Gollum :blink:

Just kidding ^_^

Sam is Sam. Unless Sam is Faramir or Eomer.

Bran might be Frodo. But in that case, one of the Reeds might also be Sam.

Jaime is probably Boromir.

But most of the characters wouldn't map directly very well.

 

I think Daenerys probably won't die in childbirth ... at least, not for her first pregnancy with Jon. That's more tragic than anything else.

 

I don't think Jon dies in the end. He might get a quasi-Arthurian style ending, though.

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18 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

Sam is Sam. Unless Sam is Faramir or Eomer.

I meant that hobbit Sam is Jaime, not Sam Tarly.

Then it makes sense that Jaime (Sam) will help Tyrion (Frodo) to kill Cersei (Gollum).

Quote

I think Daenerys probably won't die in childbirth ... at least, not for her first pregnancy with Jon. That's more tragic than anything else.

Supposedly her first baby was ugly mutant, burnt and covered with scales. If that is thruth (though I doubt that), then it is likely that her second pregnancy may be even worse than first. Only this time she will be the one who will die, and her child will survive.

Quote

I don't think Jon dies in the end. He might get a quasi-Arthurian style ending, though.

I'm a foreigner, so you need to explain to me what that means - describe quasi-Arthurian ending possible for Jon. :huh:?

Edited by Megorova

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