saravs

Casterly Rock Why?

30 posts in this topic

I was rewatching the old episodes and in one of them Tywin and Cersei are talking about how they need the help of the Tyrell's as there has been no gold being produced for several years from Casterly Rock. With that being the case way back then, why did Tyrion feel the need to attack a place that had nothing but sentimental value? Its no longer the seat of the lannister's power if they do not produce any gold from there. I am sure the Iron Bank also knew that there was no gold to be had from that place.

The Casterly rock attack made no sense. 
Thanks,

saravs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It was one of Tyrions plans to delay Daenerys attacks on Kings Landing in an attempt to save his family (Jamie).

The attack did make absolutely no sense, it was a worthless keep with no noteworthy loot and no Lannisters in it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A couple reasons I beleive. 

1. Tyrion secretly helping his family. 

2. Losing your "home base" is seen as a serious loss. 

But what I want to know is how caster ly rock fell to Aegon when they could have turtled like Dorne? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tyrion didn't know that Casterly Rock's mines had run dry.  Even Cersei didn't know before Tywin told her in Season 4.  Although it seems like Olenna did figure it out at some point, so why wouldn't she mention that in the war council "there's no point the mines have run dry" or something like that.  It seemed to be a pretty well kept secret.  Also taking an opponent's home base is a sound strategic move.  Robb's move to raid the Westerlands put Tywin at a massive strategic disadvantage in the Wo5Ks, and may have even won the war if not for Edmure's stupidity. 

Edited by Eddard the Builder

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In retrospective, the attack was indeed useless. A bunch of unnamed soldiers died and Grey Worm survived without a scratch, then appeared in front of King's Landing. The entire plot could have been scraped and frankly nobody would have cared.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know. The narration is strange. I would put  the "defeat of Dany because she occupied an undefended CR" in the same basket as "the rebellion was based on a lie". A lot of half-truth. I mean taking CR makes sense - if the Lannisters have moved the forces out. It's a cheap conquest of one of the strongest castles in Westeros. Plus Lannisport would be a significant gain. 

In my mind it makes sense but only in a completly reverted narrative with Lannisport in the picture. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

I don't know. The narration is strange. I would put  the "defeat of Dany because she occupied an undefended CR" in the same basket as "the rebellion was based on a lie". A lot of half-truth. I mean taking CR makes sense - if the Lannisters have moved the forces out. It's a cheap conquest of one of the strongest castles in Westeros. Plus Lannisport would be a significant gain. 

In my mind it makes sense but only in a completly reverted narrative with Lannisport in the picture. 

Lannisport wasn't even mentioned in the show since...season 1? It might have been scraped alltogether by D&D.

Pretty bizzare considering it's the 3rd largest city in Westeros, after KL and Oldtown.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Tyrek Lannister said:

In retrospective, the attack was indeed useless. A bunch of unnamed soldiers died and Grey Worm survived without a scratch, then appeared in front of King's Landing. The entire plot could have been scraped and frankly nobody would have cared.

Maybe they just wanted the Unsullied out of the picture for the "battle of the loot train"; they wanted to show Dothrakis + dragons…

Edited by Nowy Tends

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tyrion's plan was, on paper, great. However, he didn't count several things. First of them was of course that the mines have dried. That alone is a huge hit for Lannisters, but the ancestral seat still remains an important thing (We know how Robb was treated after Winterfell was sacked). Second was Euron. And that was why the plan backfired.

I believe Tyrion was more concerned with PR than efficiency. We have seen glimpse of what Tyrion was speaking in Tarlys (although that was not developed properly). He wanted to stop Cersei from gaining more allies but ultimately he failed. I wouldn't only blame Tyriion for that. I believe Olenna should have done something with Tarlys. If we suppose that one of numerous Margaery's cousins survived KL, she could have offered the girl to Randyll and unite the Houses through a girl and Dickon, ensuring the loyalty of her bannermen. That is also why the pace of this season was so off. It didn't allow some storylines to properly breathe. There were no intelligent solutions to any of the problems. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But didn't Tyrion want Casterly Rock for himself and Tywin refused? Some say that Tyrion only wanted to delay Dany's plans and give Lannisters more time with the attack. Tyrion must have been unaware of the state of Casterly Rock's financial situation. However, Tywin said earlier that Tyrion would get something more suitable for him instead of Casterly Rock. Was Tywin planning to give him something more valuable after all?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Risto said:

Tyrion's plan was, on paper, great. However, he didn't count several things. First of them was of course that the mines have dried. That alone is a huge hit for Lannisters, but the ancestral seat still remains an important thing (We know how Robb was treated after Winterfell was sacked). Second was Euron. And that was why the plan backfired.

The plan did not backfire in any way. The narrator backfires the plan. Mines can't be mined fast, ships that supply the army would go to the Reach at least if not a far greater distance and Ironborn raidings on ships in the Westerlands - is almost a given. (So the army should have enough supply for the short term).The plan makes not much sense because the army has no connection to the rest of the forces. They could easily be hold up by a well defended castle - like the Rock - and then get raided and killed by reinforcements. It happened to Jaime in Riverrun. 

Nothing makes any sense - the target makes no sense and the declaration of a backfire makes also no sense. Because it did not backfire. It would have backfired if the troops would still be in Casterly Rock. Riverrun all over again until a relief army mobs up the Unsullied. Almost to the letter. The army in the Rock could now take the Westerlands - instead they move to King's Landing. Which again - makes no sense. Dany's Dothraki are large enough and she did not build siege engines anyway. So she is also not in need of infantry.

This entire story has a smell of a really well thought through war and well thought reactions. However it is narrated so unbelievable bad .... 

 

The more I think about season 7 the more I feel there is something awesome and great in the background. Something that want's out. Unfortunately someone has put a "Last Airbender" narration in front of it. To the point where it lacks so much sense that you can almost smell the genious side of the Targaryen coin that was thrown. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are several reasons to attack Casterly Rock. One it is seen as the Lannister base of power and could significantly kill moral if it is lost. It's a strategically advantageous location as keep that is difficult to siege and it's a spot where with the right number of troops and a steady stream of supplies it could be a region where Dany could hold it for a long time without too much trouble, especially if the idea is that Lannister's would dedicate a tremendous amount of resources to reclaim it. It's like Storms End in Robert's Rebellion. The army of the Reach which was massive spent almost the entire war stuck trying to claim it and it tied up considerable Targaryen banners that could have been used elsewhere. Having the Westerlands, DragonStone, Reach, and Dorne strategically make Cersei's job a lot harder. Even if you grant Cersei Storms End, it's basically the Stormlands/Crownlands/Riverlands (the latter of which is a complete disaster) all locked on one side against the Westerlands and Reach to the West, DragonStone to the East, Dorne to the South. Then to the North the Northerners and the Vale pretty much create a box to attack Cersei. From there it would be very easy to take the Riverlands and cost the Lannisters all the forces it took too hold Riverrun. Now Cersei only has King's Landing and if you grant it Storms End to defend. Which means you are pretty much forcing Euron's Iron Fleet to defend King's Landing from Blackwater Bay, boxing them in even more (or Shipbreaker Bay, which could end up being more trouble than it's worth). Also the other advantage is the idea that you cut off the Lannister's from their gold supply. 

However, the only counter is what Jamie did. Flagarantly abandon Casterly Rock so there is no moral loss over ceding it. Use the Iron Fleet to trap a good portion of Dany's troops in a now useless area, go over to the Reach with your trump card in Tarly and whichever banners follow him, take that and have a huge resource of supplies and land. From there you have all of central Westeros and you trapped Dany in two strongholds on the other side of the continent where she would have to risk it. Also losing Dorne makes that more appealing because a southern assault is taken off the table. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, lancerman said:

keep that is difficult to siege 

Apparently not for 10 (or was it 20?) Good Men and a "most highborn plumber."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/13/2017 at 9:53 AM, saravs said:

I was rewatching the old episodes and in one of them Tywin and Cersei are talking about how they need the help of the Tyrell's as there has been no gold being produced for several years from Casterly Rock. With that being the case way back then, why did Tyrion feel the need to attack a place that had nothing but sentimental value? Its no longer the seat of the lannister's power if they do not produce any gold from there. I am sure the Iron Bank also knew that there was no gold to be had from that place.

The Casterly rock attack made no sense. 
Thanks,

saravs

"The Rock" may have had gold mines, but that's not the only thing that made it valuable. There's lotsa keeps scattered throughout the kingdoms that don't produce gold, either. There are plenty of other advantages to owning it:

 

  • It is supposed to be difficult to capture, though taking it was a cakewalk this season for plot reasons. So it's of great defensive value.
  • It commands Lannisport, one of the biggest cities in the seven kingdoms. 
  • It is the seat of power in the Westerlands, and I know you can't tell by watching the show but controlling kingdoms is actually strategically important if you want to rule Westeros. 
  • It is the ancestral home of House Lannister, and if you're at war with the Lannisters capturing it at least makes them look bad. Who wants to fight for a House that doesn't command its own house?
  • Harkening back to the point about it being defensively useful, if you don't take it the Lannistes can use it against you in the future. If you cut them off from it, they can't run and hide there. 

Tyrion's plan wasn't stupid if it's a given that they're not allowed to use foreign troops or dragons against the enemy's head, which rests in King's Landing. Or if his goal is to spare his brother and sister's lives.

But it is a bad plan in the sense that it requires splitting their army and moving part of it all the way to the other side of the continent. It also violates the basic strategic principle of winning with the least amount of effort possible. Though there were moral concerns trumping strategic concerns. Mad Queen concerns. Partially artificially manufactured and poorly explained concerns, in my opinion.  

I don't blame him for not anticipating Euron's magical teleportation machine (on loan from Littlefinger) and his precognitive powers for anticipating enemy movements. 

Edited by darmody

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, darmody said:

I don't blame him for not anticipating Euron's magical teleportation machine

Yeah, people tend to forget that Tyrion has been away from Westeros for a few years, and couldn't possibly know about the amazing strides made in transmat technology. When he left, you could only transmat a single person, and only if he was a kind of small person; now, an entire navy can go from one side of the continent to the other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/16/2017 at 8:40 AM, MrJay said:

A couple reasons I beleive. 

1. Tyrion secretly helping his family. 

2. Losing your "home base" is seen as a serious loss. 

But what I want to know is how caster ly rock fell to Aegon when they could have turtled like Dorne? 

dorne didn't hide in their cities. They abandoned them and fought a guerrila war. They knew staying in a city wouldn't work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Losing your home base is a big blow. And the original plan was to use the armies of dorne and the reach to lay siege to KL. They would have attacked casterly rock and thus deal with a bunch of the lannister forces and taken the lannisters home.  The unsullied had already been sent to casterly rock if I remember right before they lost dorne and the reach. And I don't think that tyrion knew that the mines were empty even olenna was suprised by it. Yes vary's should have known but that is a plot hole

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

DOTHRAKI ON AN OPEN FIELD NED!

 

Pardon me. Had a Bobby B moment.

 

Quote

dorne didn't hide in their cities. They abandoned them and fought a guerrila war. They knew staying in a city wouldn't work.

That's what I meant, so sorry for how I worded it. My point was that Casterly Rock is basically a castle on top of a mountain/cliff. When they described the battle I recall someone saying that they can bunker down and no amount of dragon spit is gonna melt "The Rock". So how did it fall the first time? Did their leaders just decide to face a dragon...on an open field ned!

Edited by MrJay

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, MrJay said:

That's what I meant, so sorry for how I worded it. My point was that Casterly Rock is basically a castle on top of a mountain/cliff. When they described the battle I recall someone saying that they can bunker down and no amount of dragon spit is gonna melt "The Rock". So how did it fall the first time? Did their leaders just decide to face a dragon...on an open field ned!

WoIaF says "Legends says that Visenya Targaryen, upon seeing it, thanked the gods that King Loren rode forth to face her brother Aegon on the Field of Fire, for if he had remained within the Rock, even dragonflame would not have daunted him.”

But in the novels, Casterly Rock isn't just a castle on top of a mountain, it's a castle carved out of the mountain. The halls and chambers are built by digging out areas around the mineshafts. Even the port is in a cave in the mountain. The only thing on top of the mountain is a small ring for that they use for surveying and scouting.

In the show, it's a pretty standard castle, and I don't think it would hold up to a serious dragon attack nearly as well as the one in the books.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/16/2017 at 8:40 AM, MrJay said:

A couple reasons I beleive. 

1. Tyrion secretly helping his family. 

2. Losing your "home base" is seen as a serious loss. 

But what I want to know is how caster ly rock fell to Aegon when they could have turtled like Dorne? 

They bent the knee after the Field of Fire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now