Count Winter

The Night's King masterplan

34 posts in this topic

Did the NK lure Jon and his companions to the north on purpose, just to get his dragon? Did he let the 'fellowship' wait on that rock because he was really waiting for Dany and her dragons? Was this his plan from the beginning? Or did he have another plan to cross the wall?

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After watching episode 7 when he uses Viserion to break down the wall, I got the impression that it was indeed a trap all a long. The fact that he had three (!) ice-javelins for three dragons, and that his lieutenants knew exactly when to pull them out solidifies it for me.
It would in hindsight clear up some of the stranger and more convenient things that went down in episode 6 as well (like the scouting party of wights being where they were, why 1 and only 1 survived after the WW died, why he had brought the boat-chains from Hardhome all the way here, etc.)

Edited by MinscS2

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22 hours ago, Count Winter said:

Did the NK lure Jon and his companions to the north on purpose, just to get his dragon? Did he let the 'fellowship' wait on that rock because he was really waiting for Dany and her dragons? Was this his plan from the beginning? Or did he have another plan to cross the wall?

Yes, as Minsc said, it SHOULD have been a trap.  I would love there to be some clarification on this going forward, like they left it for Season 8 as a twist that we will find out more about the Night King and his plan and they will reveal that Beyond the Wall was a trap the entire time.  Because it's the only thing that makes any sense of some of the happenings in Episode 6 Beyond the Wall.

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I don't know if it was a trap or not. I think the theory is very plausible just not sure that is the only interpretation or the simplest in the spirit of Ocam's Razor.

But can we appreciate for a second how much Bran messes things up. 

He messed up by entering the vision last year when he should not have in getting most of his friends killed.

Then he messed up big time this year by sounding the alarm bells about the Night King marching on Eastwatch without ever stoping to think what happens if he gets there. Can he even cross the wall and if so how? 

Bran so far is the text book example of giving someone way more power than they have the maturity or wisdom to be able to handle. 

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I can't get my head wrapped around this one, because it was Tyrion's stupid idea to get one wight for Cersei that made them do the trip beyond the wall anyway. NK however had himself equipped for the encounter already. It was actually Bran alerting everyone to act hastily. Bran messing it all up explains things best.

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7 minutes ago, Deminelle said:

I can't get my head wrapped around this one, because it was Tyrion's stupid idea to get one wight for Cersei that made them do the trip beyond the wall anyway. NK however had himself equipped for the encounter already. It was actually Bran alerting everyone to act hastily. Bran messing it all up explains things best.

Thats another possibility. The Night King might not have done something to cause them to head North but he knew they were coming North and what that could mean and was ready.

Edited by jcmontea

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I've been musing on what could be the storyline purpose of Sam dragging Gilly and her baby around for the past seasons.  I wonder if the NK is angry that the baby "Little Sam?" was supposed to be tribute (all of Castor's infant boys). Now that the tributes have ended he's the last one - and he's still alive. 

Could the NK be stopped by offering him Little Sam?

Otherwise what is the purpose  of the Gilly character on the show?

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24 minutes ago, Queen of the Cavern said:

I've been musing on what could be the storyline purpose of Sam dragging Gilly and her baby around for the past seasons.  I wonder if the NK is angry that the baby "Little Sam?" was supposed to be tribute (all of Castor's infant boys). Now that the tributes have ended he's the last one - and he's still alive. 

Could the NK be stopped by offering him Little Sam?

Otherwise what is the purpose  of the Gilly character on the show?

Sam learned that he could kill a wight with dragon glass when he was protecting Gilly and the baby. Sam decided to become a maester and not stay with Nightwatch. Gilly/they found out about Rhaegar's marriage. Not sure if there's more purpose needed. I don't get the feeling that little Sam would be important otherwise.

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On 9/13/2017 at 0:38 PM, Count Winter said:

Did the NK lure Jon and his companions to the north on purpose, just to get his dragon? Did he let the 'fellowship' wait on that rock because he was really waiting for Dany and her dragons? Was this his plan from the beginning? Or did he have another plan to cross the wall?

Bad writing. I know I know. I am a broken record and I hate it too. Think on this.

Scenario 1: Night King set them up to get the dragon

 So He has the ability to be aware of dragons being birthed across the sea. Okay, plausible. A magical 6'th sense. But he also knew that the rider of said dragons would survive, and come to Westeros. Then after that, He knew that there would be some suicide mission sent to the North and that they would beg her for help. Then he knew she would come. 

See how ridiculous that all is. He'd have to be psychic in some way which means that he will not be able to be beaten by anyone besides Bran. They would have top pull some time travel psychic battle nonsense.

 

Scenario 2: Night king had no clue and was just winging it.

This guy created a massive army with no where to go. They can't swim. They can't even get near the wall. He would have just been sitting there for thousands of years and waiting for the ice to melt.

Which pens up another plot hole. If he could never pass the wall (you know, since it exists to keep them out and has worked since being built) why was he ever a threat? Why the need to gather soldiers, convince cersei, go on a suicide mission or even care? This was a non issue. 

 

- Problem: The dead are coming!

- Solution: Magical wall keeps them out.

The problem was solved before it ever began. Either way you slice it, it's really stupid. All they had to do was give the guy that Horn and have him blow it. Then in a future battle, have him kill a dragon. But nah, can't have that. D&D wanna take their money and run before we notice how bad they are at this.

 

Edit: One more solution. Bran could have unintentionally nullified the magic of the wall. It would have been cool to see them expect the wall to hold (remember, no one knows that Bran's contact with the NK had magic nullifying effects) , then freak out when the dead just climb it like roaches. Then Jon and crew would go into panic mode, and of course the dragon's would be called in.

Edited by MrJay

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35 minutes ago, MrJay said:

Bad writing. I know I know. I am a broken record and I hate it too. Think on this.

Scenario 1: Night King set them up to get the dragon

 So He has the ability to be aware of dragons being birthed across the sea. Okay, plausible. A magical 6'th sense. But he also knew that the rider of said dragons would survive, and come to Westeros. Then after that, He knew that there would be some suicide mission sent to the North and that they would beg her for help. Then he knew she would come. 

See how ridiculous that all is. He'd have to be psychic in some way which means that he will not be able to be beaten by anyone besides Bran. They would have top pull some time travel psychic battle nonsense.

 

Scenario 2: Night king had no clue and was just winging it.

This guy created a massive army with no where to go. They can't swim. They can't even get near the wall. He would have just been sitting there for thousands of years and waiting for the ice to melt.

Which pens up another plot hole. If he could never pass the wall (you know, since it exists to keep them out and has worked since being built) why was he ever a threat? Why the need to gather soldiers, convince cersei, go on a suicide mission or even care? This was a non issue. 

 

- Problem: The dead are coming!

- Solution: Magical wall keeps them out.

The problem was solved before it ever began. Either way you slice it, it's really stupid. All they had to do was give the guy that Horn and have him blow it. Then in a future battle, have him kill a dragon. But nah, can't have that. D&D wanna take their money and run before we notice how bad they are at this.

 

Edit: One more solution. Bran could have unintentionally nullified the magic of the wall. It would have been cool to see them expect the wall to hold (remember, no one knows that Bran's contact with the NK had magic nullifying effects) , then freak out when the dead just climb it like roaches. Then Jon and crew would go into panic mode, and of course the dragon's would be called in.

Isn't that last suggestion the same thing? Basically the Night King has no way around the wall and is able to get through because Bran messes up in some way. In your edit scenario he just would have messed up in some other way. 

I think we have to assume he would have made his way past one way or another even without the dragon and not think to hard about it given what Benjen tells Bran in season 6:

"one way or another, he will find his way to the world of men. When he does, you will be there waiting for him. And you will be ready"

hopefully in addition to creeping out his sisters Bran was actually getting ready

Edited by jcmontea

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6 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Isn't that last suggestion the same thing? Basically the Night King has no way around the wall and is able to get through because Bran messes up in some way. In your edit scenario he just would have messed up in some other way. 

Yeah, it is. It was just basically an idea being fleshed out after 40 seconds of typing. It went from "He gets a dragon somehow later" into "Oh, here is how it could work out."

In the long run, this doesn't matter. But for now it feels kinda frustrating since they had a perfectly good explanation and they went out of their way to do what they did. It's like seeing someone buy a car and then seeing them try to deliver a pizza, but instead of driving they steal a bike, grab onto the back of a bus, run cheat and steal in order to make the delivery, and only wind up causing issues. I am left feeling like "Why? Why would you do that when you had a perfectly good way to accomplish this right there. Why did you even buy the car? Did you forget you had it?" And then the more you think of how much trouble they went through to avoid using that perfectly fine car, and the repercussions of their actions taken that day, you begin to realize this guy isn't the brightest and you not only consider firing him but now wonder if he has some kind of mental illness like short term amnesia or something.

The Bran idea would also work because it would finally give the Southern realms a reason to fear the dead. If they know their wall's magic is depleted, now the dead become a real threat. These guys really went out of their way to make this story worse just so they could get an "ice dragon" sooner. And if that is all they wanted, they should have just finished copying the Wrath Cinematic and have the NK do it ala Lich King style. Not like we are following logic and in universe rules anymore. Go ham.

That's basically what that scene has me feeling/thinking right now. 

Edited by MrJay

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They should have pointed out more clearly for the viewers that Bran is making huge mistakes. The suspense would come from us watchers knowing about the danger but not the main characters like Jon, who believes that Bran is on the right.

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5 hours ago, MrJay said:

Yeah, it is. It was just basically an idea being fleshed out after 40 seconds of typing. It went from "He gets a dragon somehow later" into "Oh, here is how it could work out."

In the long run, this doesn't matter. But for now it feels kinda frustrating since they had a perfectly good explanation and they went out of their way to do what they did. It's like seeing someone buy a car and then seeing them try to deliver a pizza, but instead of driving they steal a bike, grab onto the back of a bus, run cheat and steal in order to make the delivery, and only wind up causing issues. I am left feeling like "Why? Why would you do that when you had a perfectly good way to accomplish this right there. Why did you even buy the car? Did you forget you had it?" And then the more you think of how much trouble they went through to avoid using that perfectly fine car, and the repercussions of their actions taken that day, you begin to realize this guy isn't the brightest and you not only consider firing him but now wonder if he has some kind of mental illness like short term amnesia or something.

The Bran idea would also work because it would finally give the Southern realms a reason to fear the dead. If they know their wall's magic is depleted, now the dead become a real threat. These guys really went out of their way to make this story worse just so they could get an "ice dragon" sooner. And if that is all they wanted, they should have just finished copying the Wrath Cinematic and have the NK do it ala Lich King style. Not like we are following logic and in universe rules anymore. Go ham.

That's basically what that scene has me feeling/thinking right now. 

Got it. Personally i am ok with the ice dragon. Even though I hated Viserion dying. The scene looked cool and it sets up an epic battle next year. 

My main problems with it where more: 

- i would like to know how the hell this guy was getting across the wall without it other than it was going to happen. If they retcon something in during season 8 maybe i will be ok. I assume someone has to ask did we allow this guy to get through the wall? What would have happened had we not gone? 

- they should have dedicated more time to explaining why they felt a high risk strategy to secure an armistace was both warranted, how it would have worked, why didn't they try to secure Yara's release as a condition etc. something so big required more than a 2 minute small council meeting scene. 

- i really wanted to see Cersei get served Fire and Blood and the damm armistace took it away from me 

- Tyrion was the worst 

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The NK is the Lord of Light?  He let the Hound see the arrow?  He revived Jon Snow?  He sent Meli to bring Jon to Dany?

That's the only way it was a trap, you have to believe all that if you believe if it was a trap.

Edited by Hoo

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9 hours ago, MrJay said:

Yeah, it is. It was just basically an idea being fleshed out after 40 seconds of typing. It went from "He gets a dragon somehow later" into "Oh, here is how it could work out."

In the long run, this doesn't matter. But for now it feels kinda frustrating since they had a perfectly good explanation and they went out of their way to do what they did. It's like seeing someone buy a car and then seeing them try to deliver a pizza, but instead of driving they steal a bike, grab onto the back of a bus, run cheat and steal in order to make the delivery, and only wind up causing issues. I am left feeling like "Why? Why would you do that when you had a perfectly good way to accomplish this right there. Why did you even buy the car? Did you forget you had it?" And then the more you think of how much trouble they went through to avoid using that perfectly fine car, and the repercussions of their actions taken that day, you begin to realize this guy isn't the brightest and you not only consider firing him but now wonder if he has some kind of mental illness like short term amnesia or something.

The Bran idea would also work because it would finally give the Southern realms a reason to fear the dead. If they know their wall's magic is depleted, now the dead become a real threat. These guys really went out of their way to make this story worse just so they could get an "ice dragon" sooner. And if that is all they wanted, they should have just finished copying the Wrath Cinematic and have the NK do it ala Lich King style. Not like we are following logic and in universe rules anymore. Go ham.

That's basically what that scene has me feeling/thinking right now. 

I mean, your points are well taken, but I think they ignore the visual nature of the medium of television.  You can call it "bad writing", but D & D know what they're doing as far as producing spectacle and working towards major visual moments.  I agree, Bran breaking the Wall's magic like he did with the cave by passing through makes more sense.  But there's no visual satisfaction in seeing that, there's no "oh shit" moment leading up to that.  And that is antithetical to how TV is produced and created.  D & D had this final moment of Viserion blowing down the Wall in their minds this entire season and they did what they could to lead up to it.  I think the entirety of Episode 6 Beyond the Wall was pretty much nonsense (and D & D got called out for that as they deserved), but they were banking on Episode 7's final scene making up for that.  I think they succeeded just based on viewing the reactions to that scene in particular and the season in general.

I think the same problems exist with what will probably be the book version of getting the Wall down with the magical horn.  That's just not visually stimulating and actually I could see that looking really silly if they had the Night King blowing some magical horn like that to get the Wall down.  Furthermore, while D & D usually have no problem introducing shit on a whim to try and get to an endpoint, I appreciated their restraint here in not just having this magical mcguffin Horn of Winter or Joramun just show up this season with little to no buildup in prior seasons.  

 

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On 9/13/2017 at 5:38 PM, kimim said:
7 minutes ago, DirewolfDave said:

1. Kill all humans

2.????????????

3.Profit

i think it stops at 1. he is a computer program run amok. 

he was created by the children to kill humans and thats what he is doing. just executing his program. 

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10 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

but D & D know what they're doing as far as producing spectacle and working towards major visual moments.  I agree, Bran breaking the Wall's magic like he did with the cave by passing through makes more sense.  But there's no visual satisfaction in seeing that, there's no "oh shit" moment leading up to that.  And that is antithetical to how TV is produced and created.

That's spot on, but also why I dislike this season. These guys write for spectacle. It's clear as day when you listen to them talk. They wanted a Zombie Polar bear because it looked cool and they wanted it. That's it. No other reason.

Game of Thrones never worked like that. Everything that happened was earned or foreshadowed. What would have happened was the Night's King would pull out the real horn, blow it, and have the wall come crashing down. And we would be there knowing that the horn that people spoke about and showed way back in earlier seasons was for a reason and we would be satisfied.

Now, many people just want to see cool lights and giant monsters blow stuff up. That's why we are now at Transformers#??. That's fine. To each their own. I am just not happy that these guys turned GoT into another generic Michael Bay film when we have so many already. If this was the end goal, they should have just taken some crap book like Eragon and made it into a show. Or at the very least start episode#1 with Bran sword fighting Jaime until he kicks him out the window into a pile of explosives or something. Then have Robb get murdered in an epic battle with the Mountain while fire arrows fly all over. Since Spectacle and making things look epic on TV is all these guys care about . 

Edited by MrJay

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11 minutes ago, MrJay said:

That's spot on, but also why I dislike this season. These guys write for spectacle. It's clear as day when you listen to them talk. They wanted a Zombie Polar bear because it looked cool and they wanted it. That's it. No other reason.

Game of Thrones never worked like that. Everything that happened was earned or foreshadowed. What would have happened was the Night's King would pull out the real horn, blow it, and have the wall come crashing down. And we would be there knowing that the horn that people spoke about and showed way back in earlier seasons was for a reason and we would be satisfied.

Now, many people just want to see cool lights and giant monsters blow stuff up. That's why we are now at Transformers#??. That's fine. To each their own. I am just not happy that these guys turned GoT into another generic Michael Bay film when we have so many already. If this was the end goal, they should have just taken some crap book like Eragon and made it into a show. Or at the very least start episode#1 with Bran sword fighting Jaime until he kicks him out the window into a pile of explosives or something. Then have Robb get murdered in an epic battle with the Mountain while fire arrows fly all over. Since Spectacle and making things look epic on TV is all these guys care about . 

The Zombie Polar Bear gets a lot of shit but wasn't there a Zombie Polar Bear in ASOS during the attack on the fist of the first men? I think they wanted that for four years because four years ago was season 3 when the attack on the fist happens. 

what did you feel that happened this year was not foreshadowed? 

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