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Lucius Lovejoy

Mad Queen Daenerys betrayed for love as Bittersweet ending?

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I've made no secret of my dislike for Daenerys, so I'll start this thread by just coming out and saying that I want her ending to be something other than benevolent, universally adored ruler.

So I've had a hunch Daenerys would turn out to be crazy, but at first I believed that this would be something that made her a villain in the end.  Some hints to this would be that she has no other POVs around her through which we can see her actions (Barristan and Quentyn don't really count as they showed up late and she gets airlifted to the green grass sea once they show up as POVs), she has been through a pretty traumatic life, and of course she is a product of incest.  It seems clear to me that she will not be a villain now (especially after S7) - many characters speak highly of her and how they believe in her (annoyingly without specifically stating what her vision of the new world is), and in the books we see her actually tending to those suffering the pale mare, and rejecting the opportunity to sail to westeros in order to stay with her people.  But she still may go crazy - we've seen on the show that she likes to burn people who upset her, and Tyrion and Varys have discussed that it is still possible for her to go mad later in life like Aerys.

Is it possible for the bittersweet ending/betrayal for love to be something where after the war is won, Tyrion (or perhaps Jon) have to remove her from power and essentially imprison her in the red keep (or maybe at the house with the red door in Braavos) to prevent her from causing harm to herself, her family, or her subjects?  And she is confused and crying and everyone is super emotional because this woman they loved and followed accomplished most everything (ending slave trade in slavers bay, defeating white walkers, setting things in motion for rebuilding a new and better westeros) but was unable to enjoy or celebrate it.  Having a miscarriage or something could be the final trigger for her.  I think it'd be an awfully emotional ending.  Kind of like Old Yeller meets One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.

 

This being said I don't believe this will happen - 6 episodes are too few to show a believably slow descent into madness (since I can't imagine more than a calendar year will pass during the events of the show) and I see her dying in childbirth (like her mom, Jon's mom, and Tyrion's mom), but it was just an idea I had that I wanted to get some opinions on.

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16 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

I've made no secret of my dislike for Daenerys, so I'll start this thread by just coming out and saying that I want her ending to be something other than benevolent, universally adored ruler.

So I've had a hunch Daenerys would turn out to be crazy, but at first I believed that this would be something that made her a villain in the end.  Some hints to this would be that she has no other POVs around her through which we can see her actions (Barristan and Quentyn don't really count as they showed up late and she gets airlifted to the green grass sea once they show up as POVs), she has been through a pretty traumatic life, and of course she is a product of incest.  It seems clear to me that she will not be a villain now (especially after S7) - many characters speak highly of her and how they believe in her (annoyingly without specifically stating what her vision of the new world is), and in the books we see her actually tending to those suffering the pale mare, and rejecting the opportunity to sail to westeros in order to stay with her people.  But she still may go crazy - we've seen on the show that she likes to burn people who upset her, and Tyrion and Varys have discussed that it is still possible for her to go mad later in life like Aerys.

Is it possible for the bittersweet ending/betrayal for love to be something where after the war is won, Tyrion (or perhaps Jon) have to remove her from power and essentially imprison her in the red keep (or maybe at the house with the red door in Braavos) to prevent her from causing harm to herself, her family, or her subjects?  And she is confused and crying and everyone is super emotional because this woman they loved and followed accomplished most everything (ending slave trade in slavers bay, defeating white walkers, setting things in motion for rebuilding a new and better westeros) but was unable to enjoy or celebrate it.  Having a miscarriage or something could be the final trigger for her.  I think it'd be an awfully emotional ending.  Kind of like Old Yeller meets One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.

 

This being said I don't believe this will happen - 6 episodes are too few to show a believably slow descent into madness (since I can't imagine more than a calendar year will pass during the events of the show) and I see her dying in childbirth (like her mom, Jon's mom, and Tyrion's mom), but it was just an idea I had that I wanted to get some opinions on.

Clinging to the hope Dany is not the hero until the end I see. 

I think the idea is unlikely. At this point I either see two ends for her - the Moses ending or the Augustus ending. In the Moses ending she dies heroically in the Great War and cannot see the new world that she has made possible. In the Augustus ending she takes the throne and rules for the rest of her life and builds or fails to build whatever new world she was looking to build. 

Everything about how she is portrayed in the show screams hero. In the books it's not as clear since she is a relatively minor character in ACOK and ASOS. But in the show, she is given the ending shot in 3 seasons. She has more musical compositions and themes than any other character. Many of her musical compositions and themes when analyzed have a structure that paints her as the great uniter of people. The other characters we like and admire all pledge themselves to her and think she is the greatest thing since sliced bread reinforcing what the music is telling us.

At this point we are 92% of the way through the story and it's just bad story telling if all of that was just a big red herring setting up a gotcha ending. She either dies a hero or she achieves what she set out to achieve seem like the most likely ends for Daenerys Targaryen at this point. Whether she ends up happy or not that is another question. 

Edited by jcmontea

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I made a post regarding the betrayed-for-love prophecy earlier today;
 

Quote

This prophecy has never been mentioned in the show, only the books, so I wouldn't expect it to play a major part in the coming season.

If it becomes an issue, then technically Dany has been betrayed "for love" at least twice in the show already:

1) Doreah betrayed her for Xaro in season 2. The show didn't go into great detail why Doreah chose to betray Dany, but we can assume that she fell in love with him at some point after Dany told her to extract info from him. They are sleeping together (actually sleeping, not having sex) when she learns of her betrayal.
2) Tyrion also technically betrayed Daenerys in season 7. He intentionally gave her bad military advice and delayed her conquest in order to try and find a way to get his family (or at the very least, Jamie) out of the war alive. He put his own interests before hers. It was also Tyrions monumentally stupid idea for them to go north of the wall and capture a wight, which ended up with Viserions death. Tyrion knows Cersei better than this, did he really think that she would care and/or side with them? 


As for there being no other PoV's regarding her except her own in the show: We've had Jorah's PoV ever since season 1.

I found the Daenerys-is-the-real-villain-theory interesting, but ultimately I never believed in it. 
By this stage (end of season 7), it's clear that she's one of the main protagonists, a hero who's forfeited her lifelong goal and instead puts herself at risk of death in order to save a land and it's people - a land and people she has never known, and who at this stage has little more than contempt for her.

She might survive and end up ruling and she might die a heroes death, but she won't go mad like her father.
We already have one clearly mad queen on the show, and her name begins with the letter C, not D.
 

Edited by MinscS2

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30 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

I made a post regarding the betrayed-for-love prophecy earlier today;
 


As for there being no other PoV's regarding her except her own in the show: We've had Jorah's PoV ever since season 1.

I found the Daenerys-is-the-real-villain-theory interesting, but ultimately I never believed in it. 
By this stage (end of season 7), it's clear that she's one of the main protagonists, a hero who's forfeited her lifelong goal and instead puts herself at risk of death in order to save a land and it's people - a land and people she has never known, and who at this stage has little more than contempt for her.

She might survive and end up ruling and she might die a heroes death, but she won't go mad like her father.
We already have one clearly mad queen on the show, and her name begins with the letter C, not D.
 

I think it would also be somewhat problematic if the two characters we are given who are mad are the female Queens. Throw in Lysa and you would have three crazy female rulers... not sure that is what they want to role with. 

Also, for what its worth the D&D specifically said she is not mad on two ocassions. After 6x6 they say that and talk about how there is a certain ruthlesness with even the good Targaryens. After 7x5 they said that her burning the Tarlys was a very rational decision. She is ruthless when she needs to be and because of her father people in universe worry and see her ruthlesness through the prism of her father. I think that is the extent of it. She like every other character has to deal with the legacy of their parents and in her case that legacy is the shaddow of the Mad King. 

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I agree. "We both want to help people. We can only help people from a position of strength. Sometimes strength is terrible."

Dany does some ruthless, almost cruel things on occasion, but she always has a plan behind her actions, a plan which in her mind ultimately justifies the means and leads to something better. It doesn't always work as well as intended, but she is never intentionally cruel to people who don't deserve it.

Aerys was crazy and killed people on a whim for no real reason, and Cersei gets sexual pleasure (wtf) from killing and torturing her enemies.

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Daenerys is IMO the most interesting and complex character of GRRM. Jon is completely dull in comparison. While some people positively love her, some hate her. She starts as a poor girl, sold by her insane brother to barbaric people. She comes out of it as a badass character with dragons. She has some honorable goals, freeing slaves, kicking out unworthy rulers like Cersei. But she also has some frightening traits. She is uncompromising "bend the knee or burn". For some, it doesn't matter. For others, it makes all the difference.

The books are behind the show now. But her liberating campaign has not gone so well so far. Astapor is totally destroyed and a terrific plague is wiping out Slaver's Bay. She was in a quagmire in Meereen, before she had to flee to the Dothrakis' lands. The Dothrakis are not very nice people in general. They made a "sea of grass" of what was a place a bit like Westeros:

Some of their kings even sought to use the Dothraki in their own wars, offering them gold and slaves and other gifts to fight against their rivals. Khal Mengo took these gifts gladly ... then took the conquered lands as well, burning fields and farms and towns to return the grasslands to their wild state (for the Dothraki consider the earth to be their mother and think it sinful to cut her flesh with plows and spades and axes).

So bringing them to Westeros could be no good news. I would still believe there would be room for a happy ending in Westeros for Daenerys... if not for Jon. Because Jon has not her uncompromising attitude. Because the story has been fairer to him. Because he is the only one not seeking this fucking throne, killing people for it. Because he has never caused the death of anyone by his own selfish want. Because he is the one with both Ice (Stark) and Fire (Targaryen).

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1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Daenerys is IMO the most interesting and complex character of GRRM. Jon is completely dull in comparison. While some people positively love her, some hate her. She starts as a poor girl, sold by her insane brother to barbaric people. She comes out of it as a badass character with dragons. She has some honorable goals, freeing slaves, kicking out unworthy rulers like Cersei. But she also has some frightening traits. She is uncompromising "bend the knee or burn". For some, it doesn't matter. For others, it makes all the difference.

The books are behind the show now. But her liberating campaign has not gone so well so far. Astapor is totally destroyed and a terrific plague is wiping out Slaver's Bay. She was in a quagmire in Meereen, before she had to flee to the Dothrakis' lands. The Dothrakis are not very nice people in general. They made a "sea of grass" of what was a place a bit like Westeros:

Some of their kings even sought to use the Dothraki in their own wars, offering them gold and slaves and other gifts to fight against their rivals. Khal Mengo took these gifts gladly ... then took the conquered lands as well, burning fields and farms and towns to return the grasslands to their wild state (for the Dothraki consider the earth to be their mother and think it sinful to cut her flesh with plows and spades and axes).

So bringing them to Westeros could be no good news. I would still believe there would be room for a happy ending in Westeros for Daenerys... if not for Jon. Because Jon has not her uncompromising attitude. Because the story has been fairer to him. Because he is the only one not seeking this fucking throne, killing people for it. Because he has never caused the death of anyone by his own selfish want. Because he is the one with both Ice (Stark) and Fire (Targaryen).

Having Jon end up on the throne because he is such a good person feels like the biggest trope of all. Martin's comments on good people making good kings is interesting. 

Of course it’s not enough to be a good man to be an effective ruler and it never has been,” he says, pointing to Jimmy Carter, who he calls the “best human to be a president in my life time.” Despite Carter’s “intelligence” and “humanity,” Martin says, “He was not an effective president.”

On the flip side, “there are some examples of medieval kings who were terrible human beings but were nevertheless good kings.”

Heavy hangs the head that wears the crown, in other words. “We can all read these books or look at history and say, so and so was stupid, but these mistakes are much more apparent in hindsight,” he says.

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Thanks for the feedback guys.  Just to clarify, I am decidedly NOT on team Jon or rooting for Jon to end the series on the Iron Throne, though I prefer him to Daenerys.  I only state my dislike of Daenerys for full disclosure, my feelings for the character are irrelevant to my post otherwise.  Even if I liked her I don't think she gets a happy ending (though I think she will be a hero), I think she'll mostly likely die, but wondering if it is possible that she gets a different unhappy ending that involves her living.

I am suggesting that I currently believe Daenerys will be a hero on both the show and the books - what I'm trying to ask is could she, in the course of helping to defeating the white walkers and "break the wheel" (whatever the hell it means or how it is depicted, I'm sure it will be recognized by all characters as universally good), go mad?  That doesn't necessarily mean that she becomes entirely sadistic a la Mad King Aerys, but maybe starts seeing things that aren't there, losing her memory, giving odd orders, experiencing strange and unexpected emotions... something where it is heartbreaking to watch Daenerys as an accomplished and "good" person suffer mental disease and become someone she wasn't, someone unrecognizable (if anyone has a relative with alzheimers it's awful - I'm thinking something like that mixed with schizophrenia).  I don't think this will happen, but it certainly would be a tear jerker, and would be more bittersweet to me than Daenerys being the umpteenth person to die in childbirth.  Just wondering if anyone else finds this as a possible ending.

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Understood. I personally don't think so but who knows.

i think Daenerys is a character who completes all her arcs. She can complete them in ways that don't bring her happiness - e.g. sit the throne but realize it brings her no happiness - but I think at the end of the day she completes her arcs.

So whatever ending she has will be one that is true to her arcs. I don't really see how her seeing things or losing her memory helps complete her arc but I could be wrong. 

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@jcmontea Good reference points from D&D - I pretty much stopped watching inside the episode after they started mailing-it-in on the scripts so I only get tidbits like that from the forum.  I totally get what your saying with her completing her arcs - I suppose that it what makes the most traditional narrative sense.  Truth be told, I just want to be surprised again like with Ned's death - even GRRM, while trying to "subvert" fantasy tropes and what not, seems to have his own patterns and tells which have led to a number of items that might otherwise seem odd end up being expected (many, though not me, saw Shireen's burning from a mile away as an example).  So I guess this was my attempt at thinking up something plausible that would also be shocking.

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46 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

@jcmontea Good reference points from D&D - I pretty much stopped watching inside the episode after they started mailing-it-in on the scripts so I only get tidbits like that from the forum.  I totally get what your saying with her completing her arcs - I suppose that it what makes the most traditional narrative sense.  Truth be told, I just want to be surprised again like with Ned's death - even GRRM, while trying to "subvert" fantasy tropes and what not, seems to have his own patterns and tells which have led to a number of items that might otherwise seem odd end up being expected (many, though not me, saw Shireen's burning from a mile away as an example).  So I guess this was my attempt at thinking up something plausible that would also be shocking.

Its tough. At this stage of the story - 92% of the way through - how do you be shocking while also staying true to the narrative structure you set up.

Have you read George's original outline? He clearly intended Ned's, Robb's and Cat's deaths to be seen as shocking but he also knew they were never the main characters but would be confused to be. At this point it becomes harder to pull off stuff like that. 

Also, the problem is for us who frequent message boards its a lot harder to produce shocking situation than it is for the average viewer. 

My own view is that at this point the most inportant thing is to land the plane succesfully and complete the arcs of the major characters. If you can complete the arcs in a satisfying way and be shocking great. But if not the most important thing is to complete the arc.

The worst thing is to sacrifice the character arcs in an attempt to be shocking since shock is a one time experience. A well told character story that has a great beggining and end is something that can become a timeless.

Edited by jcmontea

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5 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

My own view is that at this point the most inportant thing is to land the plane succesfully and complete the arcs of the major characters. If you can complete the arcs in a satisfying way and be shocking great. But if not the most important thing is to complete the arc.

Agreed. The time for shocking revelations is over, now is the time to give the characters we all like and love the satisfying conclusions to their story arcs that they deserve. A poorly executed end to a character, i.e. a unfinished story arc or a story arc where the character starts acting really out of character can totally ruin a character for me, even if I've liked said character for a long time, while a good conclusion to a characters story arc (I mean "good", not necessarily "happy") can more or less immortalize said character so that people will talk about her/him for generations to come.

 

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21 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Having Jon end up on the throne because he is such a good person feels like the biggest trope of all. Martin's comments on good people making good kings is interesting.

I agree. But Jon is the "obvious" winner only because we had plenty of time to think about it. And because the show made some blatant discovery of his parents. I'm not sure the books will have such reveal. I don't see it necessary. I would hate if Jon was getting anything as the heir of his father. I'm a Free Folk. I do not kneel. That is a NO GO for me. My king is the best man. Not the eldest son of the former king. I agree of course with your comment about good men and good kings. Tommen and Tywin would be such persons. Jon is neither of them.

16 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

but maybe starts seeing things that aren't there, losing her memory, giving odd orders, experiencing strange and unexpected emotions...

I don't think her path is, becoming a weak character. Her path is war and destruction. Not peace:

Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.
"Fire and Blood," Daenerys told the swaying grass.

Echoed by Olena's advice: Are you a sheep? No. You're a dragon. Be a dragon. Will she avoid it?

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32 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I agree. But Jon is the "obvious" winner only because we had plenty of time to think about it. And because the show made some blatant discovery of his parents. I'm not sure the books will have such reveal. I don't see it necessary. I would hate if Jon was getting anything as the heir of his father. I'm a Free Folk. I do not kneel. That is a NO GO for me. My king is the best man. Not the eldest son of the former king. I agree of course with your comment about good men and good kings. Tommen and Tywin would be such persons. Jon is neither of them.

I don't think her path is, becoming a weak character. Her path is war and destruction. Not peace:

Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.
"Fire and Blood," Daenerys told the swaying grass.

Echoed by Olena's advice: Are you a sheep? No. You're a dragon. Be a dragon. Will she avoid it?

i don't think she will avoid that at all. Since the loss of Highgarden she already decided twice to be a dragon in 7x04 and 7x06. 

"My enemies are in the Red Keep. What kind of a queen am I if I'm not willing to risk my life to fight them?" Dany - 7x04

"You told me to do nothing before, I am not doing nothing again" Dany - 7x06 

So far at least, to me what that seems to mean is to embrace her destiny as a dragon rider/ warrior queen. The script of 6x09 seems to hint at this: 

"Tyrion flinches each time a projectile lands near the pyramid, because he’s human and it’s a natural human reaction.

Dany never flinches. She is not the same woman who flew away from Daznak’s Pit on the back of a dragon. She is changed, changed utterly, a terrible beauty glaring at Tyrion. 

.... 

The Unsullied back-up as Drogon lands atop the plateau, causing the envoys to shrink back in fear and their bodyguards to raise their spears.

Dany climbs on. No hesitation any more: she looks as if she was born to ride dragons, and indeed she was. They take to the sky, displaying Dany’s control of the greatest war machine the world has ever seen.

Edited by jcmontea

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17 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

i don't think she will avoid that at all.

I don't think either.

BTW, if there is one trope, it is the exiled princess recovering the crown of her father. This from her first chapter in AGoT.

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15 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I don't think either.

BTW, if there is one trope, it is the exiled princess recovering the crown of her father. This from her first chapter in AGoT.

which stories do you think best showcase that trope? 

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54 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

which stories do you think best showcase that trope? 

I feel I read it in a lot in cheap fantasy, more or less approximating it. Agreed, it is more often princes than princesses. But it is the same trope. It is the rightful heir fighting some evil before restoring his kingdom. LOTR first, The Kingdoms of Thorn and Bone, Thomas Covenant (not him), Elayne in the Wheel of Time. Maybe I could also add Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs.

You will say it fits Jon too. It is why I would prefer if Jon was not the prince. Not before the story is done at least. And not for Jon to be a king as those before.

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1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I feel I read it in a lot in cheap fantasy, more or less approximating it. Agreed, it is more often princes than princesses. But it is the same trope. It is the rightful heir fighting some evil before restoring his kingdom. LOTR first, The Kingdoms of Thorn and Bone, Thomas Covenant (not him), Elayne in the Wheel of Time. Maybe I could also add Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs.

You will say it fits Jon too. It is why I would prefer if Jon was not the prince. Not before the story is done at least. And not for Jon to be a king as those before.

Yes. For princes I agree.

I don't know too many cases where the princess is the warrior/ conqueror who brings her family back to power though. 

Dany being female is an interesting subversion of the trope. Basically she is the evil sorceress with magical beasts combined with the exiled prince trope. Except she is good instead of evil and a princess instead of a prince.

Edited by jcmontea

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9 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Dany being female is an interesting subversion of the trope. Basically she is the evil sorceress with magical beasts combined with the exiled prince trope. Except she is good instead of evil and a princess instead of a prince.

Prince or princess is the same for me. Maybe it's also playing the "damsel in distress" tune and reversing it.

But the story is much more interesting than that. I agree she has some good heart. But would she renounce her conquest if the kingdom was at peace with Tommen and Maergery and the High Septon having truly broken the Wheel? Which may happen in books with fAegon and Varys behind the scene. IMO, you don't make peace with wars. You only make enemies, bitter defeated foes. Westeros history is full of that. Her only allies were bitter women wanting to kill Cersei or their uncle.

What George RR Martin said in 2011:

Dragons are the nuclear deterrent, and only Dany has them, which in some ways makes her the most powerful person in the world. But is that sufficient? These are the kind of issues I'm trying to explore. The United States right now has the ability to destroy the world with our nuclear arsenal, but that doesn't mean we can achieve specific geopolitical goals. Power is more subtle than that. You can have the power to destroy, but it doesn't give you the power to reform, or improve, or build.

Edited by BalerionTheCat

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15 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Prince or princess is the same for me. Maybe it's also playing the "damsel in distress" tune and reversing it.

But the story is much more interesting than that. I agree she has some good heart. But would she renounce her conquest if the kingdom was at peace with Tommen and Maergery and the High Septon having truly broken the Wheel? Which may happen in books with fAegon and Varys behind the scene. IMO, you don't make peace with wars. You only make enemies, bitter defeated foes. Westeros history is full of that. Her only allies were bitter women wanting to kill Cersei or their uncle.

What George RR Martin said in 2011:

Dragons are the nuclear deterrent, and only Dany has them, which in some ways makes her the most powerful person in the world. But is that sufficient? These are the kind of issues I'm trying to explore. The United States right now has the ability to destroy the world with our nuclear arsenal, but that doesn't mean we can achieve specific geopolitical goals. Power is more subtle than that. You can have the power to destroy, but it doesn't give you the power to reform, or improve, or build.

Wasn't that exactly what this season was about and season 5 to a certain extent? 

Dany has overwhelming force and three re-usable nuclear weapons but she was unable to defeat Cersei yet because she was unwilling to destory Kings Landing so  she cannot really use her dragons to achieve the specific geopollitical goal she wants. 

Basically she is still holding true to what she thought in ACOK:

"Dany had no wish to reduce King’s Landing to a blackened ruin full of unquiet ghosts. She had supped enough on tears."

Regarding what she would have done if Westeros was at peace under Tommen, who knows. That is not the story we are getting nor the choice she is being presented with. 

The choice she had was attack King's landing and she chose not to in the hopes of a siege that would foster an internal rebellion. Then the choice she was presented with was go forward with that siege or move north to deal with the threat up there. She choose to go north. 

Will be interesting to see what choices she is presented with that arrise from the decision to fight for the north.

it could very well be she has to decide to attack kings landing next year and she decides to burn it to the ground. But if so, i think it would be because the night king is there and he has to be stopped from getting an army of millions. 

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