Mad Queen Daenerys betrayed for love as Bittersweet ending?

[BalerionTheCat]

6 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Will be interesting to see what choices she is presented with that arrise from the decision to fight for the north.

it could very well be she has to decide to attack kings landing next year and she decides to burn it to the ground. But if so, i think it would be because the night king is there and he has to be stopped from getting an army of millions. 

Not "for the north". It will be the problem of everyone. But yes. These are her choices. And possibly others we haven't imagined.

[kimim]

13 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Wasn't that exactly what this season was about and season 5 to a certain extent? 

Dany has overwhelming force and three re-usable nuclear weapons but she was unable to defeat Cersei yet because she was unwilling to destory Kings Landing so  she cannot really use her dragons to achieve the specific geopollitical goal she wants. 

Basically she is still holding true to what she thought in ACOK:

"Dany had no wish to reduce King’s Landing to a blackened ruin full of unquiet ghosts. She had supped enough on tears."

...

it could very well be she has to decide to attack kings landing next year and she decides to burn it to the ground. But if so, i think it would be because the night king is there and he has to be stopped from getting an army of millions. 

Indeed. There is no evidence that she's going mad. 

There is also no reason for her to hold back from using dragons against Cersei, other than as a result of the show's decision to use how idealized she's become to fill up an entire season. Once the show can find a very good reason for her to go after KL and Cersei--Walkers have it, or Cersei is on the verge of doing something that empowers the Walkers--then she can attack.

And she will not go mad.

[jcmontea]

22 minutes ago, kimim said:

Indeed. There is no evidence that she's going mad. 

There is also no reason for her to hold back from using dragons against Cersei, other than as a result of the show's decision to use how idealized she's become to fill up an entire season. Once the show can find a very good reason for her to go after KL and Cersei--Walkers have it, or Cersei is on the verge of doing something that empowers the Walkers--then she can attack.

And she will not go mad.

Her not going after Cersei was annoying. 

I am giving it a little more slack though after finding that quote from ACOK. So i don't think its just a show only thing her decision not to attack kings landing versus prefer a seige. 

I just don't know if she ever says it specifically on the show until this year or if we are supposed to see the conversation she had with Tyrion in 6x09 as the key moment.

[jcmontea]

7 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Not "for the north". It will be the problem of everyone. But yes. These are her choices. And possibly others we haven't imagined.

I use north because she specifically says the fighting for the north twice, once in 7x04 and again in 7x07.

But agree its a threat for everyone

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, jcmontea said:

Her not going after Cersei was annoying.

It would not have been a good thing for KL.

1 hour ago, kimim said:

Indeed. There is no evidence that she's going mad.

No. No time for that.

If one is going to destroy KL, I expect it rather from Cersei. Maybe to try to stop the Others. I expect the war and the Others will come to KL. Then there will be no time for another battle between the 2 queens.

BTW, I feel it significant the valonqar has been removed from the show. And now, only Daenerys (or Sansa) remain to be the "younger, more beautiful, to cast you down".

[jcmontea]

10 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

It would not have been a good thing for KL.

True. It was annoying from the perspective of just wanting to see Cersei get hers. But without a doubt it was the moral thing not to attack KL.

10 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

No. No time for that.

If one is going to destroy KL, I expect it rather from Cersei. Maybe to try to stop the Others. I expect the war and the Others will come to KL. Then there will be no time for another battle between the 2 queens.

BTW, I feel it significant the valonqar has been removed from the show. And now, only Daenerys (or Sansa) remain to be the "younger, more beautiful, to cast you down".

Interesting. I thought yesterday if not for the Valonqar prophecy, i could see Cersei killing herself after being cast down by the YMBQ in order to parrallel how those responsible for her other kid's deaths die.

Joffrey died of poison => Olena is poisoned 

Myrcella is killed in order to have Cersei suffer => Tyene is killed in order to have Ellaria suffer

Tomen commits suicide due to something a queen did => Cersei commits suicide due to something the YMBQ does "cast her down"

[MakeThemBurn]

Daenerys is not mad. Her cruel nature will work as a threat on mankind after she becomes the Night Queen. Tyrion will be Dany's betrayal for love. In the original storyline there was a love triangle between Jon, Arya and Tyrion. GRRM replaced Arya with Dany.

[Hodor's Dragon]

On 9/13/2017 at 1:41 PM, Lucius Lovejoy said:

I've made no secret of my dislike for Daenerys, so I'll start this thread by just coming out and saying that I want her ending to be something other than benevolent, universally adored ruler.<snip>

Is it possible for the bittersweet ending/betrayal for love to be something where after the war is won, Tyrion (or perhaps Jon) have to remove her from power and essentially imprison her in the red keep (or maybe at the house with the red door in Braavos) to prevent her from causing harm to herself, her family, or her subjects?  And she is confused and crying and everyone is super emotional because this woman they loved and followed accomplished most everything (ending slave trade in slavers bay, defeating white walkers, setting things in motion for rebuilding a new and better westeros) but was unable to enjoy or celebrate it.  Having a miscarriage or something could be the final trigger for her.  I think it'd be an awfully emotional ending.  Kind of like Old Yeller meets One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.

<snip>

When you self-identified as a Dany-hater, I expected, frankly, the kind of stupid, adolescent drivel you see too much of on this site. But you surprised me pleasantly, first by correctly identifying some of the bits in the show and books that make it unlikely that she will ultimately be seen as a villain, and secondly by creating a scenario that recognizes that and yet still involves an "evil Queen Daenerys" ending. The ending you describe wouldn't be a bad ending at all: a real tear-jerker, as you say.

That said, it's imaginative and logical and all, so kudos, but I've seen no evidence at all to make me think it's likely.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

2 hours ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

When you self-identified as a Dany-hater, I expected, frankly, the kind of stupid, adolescent drivel you see too much of on this site. But you surprised me pleasantly, first by correctly identifying some of the bits in the show and books that make it unlikely that she will ultimately be seen as a villain, and secondly by creating a scenario that recognizes that and yet still involves an "evil Queen Daenerys" ending. The ending you describe wouldn't be a bad ending at all: a real tear-jerker, as you say.

That said, it's imaginative and logical and all, so kudos, but I've seen no evidence at all to make me think it's likely.

Thanks for the kind words @Hodor's Dragon.  Knowing how sometimes on this forum posts end up becoming a referendum on what characters people like or dislike, I figured it would be better to just come out and say it rather than get a few "oooh you just hate Dany" posts that derailed everything without commenting on the question.  I now think she has a heroic tragic ending, but the childbirth death or death in battle kind.  But I'm rooting for something more emotional and less predictable which is how I came up with the ending that I did.  Probably joining these forums has been a bad idea - almost everything seems predictable (and thus less emotionally powerful) now lol.

[Kajjo]

On 13.9.2017 at 10:41 PM, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Is it possible for the bittersweet ending/betrayal for love to be something where after the war is won, Tyrion (or perhaps Jon) have to remove her from power and essentially imprison her in the red keep (or maybe at the house with the red door in Braavos) to prevent her from causing harm to herself, her family, or her subjects?

Considering the prophesy in the house of the undying, I doubt that Daenery will ever reach the throne. It is far more likely that she meets a different fate. As long as Jon lives, he is first in order of succession anyway. Betrayel for love by Missandei and Grey Worm or by Tyrion is both not unlikely.

On 14.9.2017 at 10:30 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

Daenerys is IMO the most interesting and complex character of GRRM

She is interesting, she is beautiful, she has great dialogues. But she has a temper, a naivity, she proved to be prone for bad decisions and stubbornness, for stupid egoism not far from that of her brother. Just because of he father she thinks she has the right to the throne. 

On 14.9.2017 at 10:30 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

She comes out of it as a badass character with dragons. She has some honorable goals, freeing slaves, kicking out unworthy rulers like Cersei. But she also has some frightening traits. She is uncompromising "bend the knee or burn". For some, it doesn't matter. For others, it makes all the difference.

Freeing slaves mostly gone wrong. Too many stupid decisions and arrogance. She wants a lot, but her own capabilities are limited.

On 14.9.2017 at 10:30 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

Because he is the only one not seeking this fucking throne, killing people for it. Because he has never caused the death of anyone by his own selfish want. Because he is the one with both Ice (Stark) and Fire (Targaryen).

Job obviously is the "ice and fire" joint. He is first in succession of the throne. He is the only one who niot even wants it. That could make him win eventually. Maybe he has to sacrify Daenerys or at least her love to save the world.

[BalerionTheCat]

2 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Freeing slaves mostly gone wrong. Too many stupid decisions and arrogance. She wants a lot, but her own capabilities are limited.

In books, yes, it has been catastrophic. In show everything seems fine now. Maybe we will learn that Daario has become Cleon the Great, the Butcher King. And now, no one is left alive in all Slaver's Bay. But I doubt it.

Daenerys = "Nissa Nissa"? I would not like it (for Jon). But yes, D&D could do it.Better than dying in childbed anyway.

[Kajjo]

2 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Daenerys = "Nissa Nissa"? I would not like it (for Jon). But yes, D&D could do it.Better than dying in childbed anyway.

Dying in birth is out of scope of the time-scale of the ongoing battle, is it?

Being sacrificed as Nissa-Nissa ist possible. Dying in battle is possible, e.g. sacrificing herself for Jon or by killing the Night Kinf herself. If she learns that Jon is first in line of succession, who knows what she will do.

2 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

n books, yes, it has been catastrophic. In show everything seems fine now.

Really? I interpreted that differently. She sucked in whatever she did in Essos. And her decision in Westeros are bad, too. Letting both Tarly be fried by dragons; this stupid wight hunt mission. She is fine with great symbolic actions and desires, but simply bad with actual real-world solutions..

[BalerionTheCat]

14 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Dying in birth is out of scope of the time-scale of the ongoing battle, is it?

Should be. But it's a frequent speculation.

14 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Really? I interpreted that differently. She sucked in whatever she did in Essos.

Maybe. But as it seems, the Harpy is dead. The Dothrakis have been nice peace keepers, no rape, no slavery, no free killing. Meereen is at peace and happy with good Daario's ruling. Yunkai's slavers are properly subdued. Everything is fine!