AlaskanSandman

Time- Accounts, inconsistencies, and thoughts.

41 posts in this topic

So this is gonna be a large ambitious post not with the aim or reconstructing the complete past, but rather enough of it so that we may look at event's transpiring with possibly clearer eyes. This will be an ongoing growing post that ill try to note edits. Ill begin with a simple area and build slowly around it with time and information. Probably in not fully connected chronologically at first as that will take time and discussion.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: The Gardener Kings- Maester Yandel

"In those centuries of trial and tumult, the Reach produced many a fearless warrior. From that day to this, the singers have celebrated the deeds of knights like Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, Davos the Dragonslayer, Roland of the Horn, and the Knight Without Armor—and the legendary kings who led them, among them Garth V (Hammer of the Dornish), Gwayne I (the Gallant), Gyles I (the Woe), Gareth II (the Grim), Garth VI (the Morningstar), and Gordan I (Grey-Eyes)."

So first lets begin with the Age of Heroes and something we're told in TWOIAF. Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, Davos Dragon Slayer, Roland of the Horn, and the Knight with out Armor and the kings they served. Garth V, Gwayne I, Gyles I, Gareth II, Garth VI and Gordan I Grey Eyes. So lets construct this from what we have at hand

---------------------------------------------------------------------------Age of Heroes--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Garth the Green

*Garth the Gardener         Maris the Maid=Uthor Hightower       Brandon Bloody Blade           Duran God's Grief

*Garth II                          Urrigon and Peremore (Founding of Citidel)   Bran the Builder (Builds the Wall)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Long Night-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Garth III

*Garth IV the Hammer of the Dornish   Sacked Old Town selling 3/4 popl. into slavery but failed to breach the Hightower      Ser Serwyn of the Mirror Shield- Kills dragon Urrax and saves Daeryssa from giants, Kings Guard member

*Gwayne I the Gallant

*Gyles I the Woe       - Ser Davos the Dragon Slayer-   killed a dragon

*Gareth I                       Erich V Harlaw

*Gareth II  the Grim   Killed by Harron Harlaw beneath walls of Old Town. Harron son of Erich V who retook fair Isle only to lose it again.   - Ser Roland of the Horn

*The World of Ice and Fire - The Iron Islands: Driftwood Crowns His son Harron slew Gareth the Grim of Highgarden beneath the walls of Oldtown. Half a century later, Joron I Blacktyde captured Gyles II Gardener when their fleets clashed off the Misty Islands

*Garth VI the Morning Star- Died in Battle against the Iron Born. (Important later as shows Iron Born expansion during peak under Driftwood Kings)

*Gordan I Grey Eyes      -   The knight with out Armor

_____________________________________End of Age of Heroes with Andal Invasion?__________________________________________________________________________

So im gonna stop here for now and simply point out that clearly we have dragons and knights being mentioned in Westeros after the Long Night. Especially important is the fact that these legendary heroes and figures pop up after the Long Night. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Edit-Since we're talking about Andals, lets switch to Andalos and Lorath.

The World of Ice and Fire - Beyond the Free Cities: The Grasslands

 "Some maesters believe that the First Men originated here before beginning the long westward migration that took them across the Arm of Dorne to Westeros. The Andals, too, may have arisen in the fertile fields south of the Silver Sea."

The World of Ice and Fire - The Free Cities: Lorath

"Others followed the mazemakers on Lorath in the centuries that followed. For a time the isles were home to a small, dark, hairy people, akin to the men of Ib. Fisherfolk, they lived along the coasts and shunned the great mazes of their predecessors. They in turn were displaced by Andals, pushing north from Andalos to the shores of Lorath Bay and across the bay in longships. Clad in mail and wielding iron swords and axes, the Andals swept across the islands, slaughtering the hairy men in the name of their seven-faced god and taking their women and children as slaves."

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Arrival of the Andals

"For a few centuries, as the Andals prospered in the Hills of Andalos, they were left more or less to themselves. But with the fall of Old Ghis came the great surge of conquest and colonization from the Freehold of Valyria, as they expanded their domains and sought more slaves. At first, the Rhoyne and the Rhoynar served as a buffer. By the time the Valyrians reached that great river, they found it difficult to make a crossing in force. The dragonlords might not be troubled, but the foot- and horsemen found it daunting in the face of Rhoynish resistance, given that the Rhoynish were by now as powerful as Ghis at its height. There was a truce for years between the Valyrians and the Rhoynar, but it only protected the Andals so far."

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Arrival of the Andals

"The fact that the Andals forged iron has been taken by some as proof that the Seven guided them—that the Smith himself taught them this art—and so do the holy texts teach. But the Rhoynar were already an advanced civilization at this time, and they too knew of iron, so it takes only the study of a map to realize that the earliest Andals must have had contact with the Rhoynar. The Darkwash and the Noyne lay directly in the path of the Andals' migration, and there are remnants of Rhoynish outposts in Andalos, according to the Norvoshi historian Doro Golathis. And it would not be the first time that men learned of the working of iron from the Rhoynar; it is said that the Valyrians learned the art from them as well, although the Valyrians eventually surpassed them."

So lets first establish that the Andals are not from Andalos. We will be discussing this further as we work backwards and east. First, Andalos.

Lorath was founded by a Valyrian religious sect called the Boash in 1436BC following a century of no inhabitants, following the Scouring of Lorath 1536Bc and death of Qarlon the Great, last Andal king of Lorath, the Andals who had ruled there for 1000 years 2536BC after they came to the lands. Qarltons realm stretching as far east as the lands that would one day be Braavos.

By this rough calculations, the Andal Invasion couldn't have began really till roughly 2500BC or 2800 years ago. Ending with the Valyrians and Scouring of Lorath in 1536BC. Giving us roughly 1000 years of Andals possibly pouring into Westeros begining nearly 3000 years ago, possibly during the Age of Heroes, or tale end of it. Maybe. We'll see. 

I may well add the Rhoynish wars. Said to have ended 1000 years ago with Nymeria and her 10,000 ships fleeing Valyria after the incident with Prince Garin. This would put the year roughly at 700BC. The war was said to have been 250 years long consisting of many battles such as the Turtle wars, spice wars, etc. This would put the start of the wars at roughly 950BC or 1250 years ago. Giving us a roughly 300 year separation between the Scouring of Lorath and the Rhoynish wars.

Maderlys and the Wolf's Den- Manderly's are said to have been given the Wolf's Den roughly 1000 years before Aegon's Conquest would put this event at 1000BC/1300 years ago, roughly the time of the Scouring of Lorath and later wars with the Rhoynar. We will be discussing the Wolf's Den further in time along with House Arryn.

*Edit-(Pulled from wiki) When exactly House Manderly came north is unknown. In 211 AC, Lady Rohanne Webber dated the flight of the Manderly's as having occured "a thousand years" ago.[13] Lord Godric Borrell defines the time period to "no more than nine hundred years" before 300 AC.[12] However, both Wylla Manderly, as well as maester Yandel date the arrival of the Manderly's in the north back a bit further, "a thousand years before the Conquest"[4] and "some thousand years before the Conquest",[15] respectively. A semi-canon source lists "a thousand years before the Conquest" as well.[14] These accounts thus place the arrival of the Manderly's in the north between 1000 BC and 600 BC. Thus arriving 1300 years ago to 900 years ago

Wolf's Den- Quick note to add. A few houses have held the Wolf's Den after it's completion by Jon Stark to hold off sea invaders. The Grey Starks held it for 500 years,  House Flint held it for century, and House Locke for almost two. That gives us nearly 800 years of accounted time the Wolf's Den was up. Which is close to the 1000 year range needed to cover the Andal Invasions. With House Manderly receiving it roughly in 1000BC and it being constructed roughly 2000BC.

The Greatest Andal Invasion of the North resisted and fought by Theon Stark. -We'll be coming back to this. Important though as Andal Invasion couldn't have began likely till 2800 years ago and ending in 1536BC/ 1836 years ago. Manderlys receiving the Wolf's Den roughly in 1300BC with it being constructed no later than 2000BC/2300 years ago. The Andal invasion may have begun around this time as we are narrowing down the events.

House Hoare and the Andals- Now this event is a little tricky, but if the Andal Invasions of Westeros began roughly 3000 years ago and ended 2000 years ago, gives us a window. It's said it took the Andals 1000 years to get to the Iron Islands during the Invasion of Westeros. So if it started 3000 years ago and ended 2000. The Andals arrived on the Iron Islands either 2000-1000 years ago. With House Blacktyde ruling for 1000 years prior being either 3000-2000 years ago when it began.

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Arrival of the Andals

 
Even the ironborn—the fierce, sea-roving warriors who must have at first thought themselves safe upon their isles—fell to the wave of Andal conquest. For though it took a thousand years for the Andals to turn their attention to the Iron Islands, when they did, they did so with renewed zeal. The Andals swept over the islands, extinguishing the line of Urron Redhand, which had ruled by axe and sword for a thousand years.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So now id like to take a quick minute to discuss the River lands and the known Kings.

*Tullys- Rules for 300 years following Aegon's Conquest

*Hoare- Rules for 3 generations ending with Harren the Black during Aegon's Conquest. Rules from Harrenhal near God's Eye. 

*Durrandon- Rules for 300 years following the destruction of the Andal Kings House Teague.

*Teague- Rules following 100 years of anarchy, rules for an Unknown time. Ended by House Durrandon. Crowned at Maidenpool.

*100 years of Anarchy

*Justman- Formed from a bastard of House Bracken and Blackwood after the Andal Invasion. Rules for 300 years. Last Justman King murdered by Qhored Hoare (Driftwood King from before the Andal Invasion, so Andals not yet to Iron Islands.)

So right here we have 1000 years of accounted history. Qhored seems an issue, but its not really one. We already determined that the window for the Andal Invasion of the Iron Islands was 1-2000 years ago. So Qhored being a Driftwood King actually fits into this time window and suggest the Iron Islands were invaded soon after. Probably as a result of the Iron Born attacking them first in the River lands. 

Now we have Houses Bracken, Blackwood, Fishers, Mudds(Fell to Andal Invaders), MaidenPool (Dont know the house name just that their last king Florian the Brave, 5th of his name fell to the Andal Invaders) and Hooks. Now the order these houses ruled in is contested and understandably so as they likely did not rule one after the other, but rather each at the same time from different areas.

Take House Mudd and the Kings of Maidenpool, both said to have ended with the Andal Invasion. Well one is near Salt Pans and the Other at the end of the Blue Fork. House Mudd ruled for 1000 years, and the Maidenpool kings likely fell first based on geography. So obviously these two houses at least were ruling at the same time. 

*Edit- House Mudd's Tristifer IV Mudd faced off against Robar II Arryn. Tristifer V Mudd is the last Mudd King. Look for this under section about Arryn Kings

House Hook who ruled at the mouth of the Blackwater rush (Kings landing) i think were likely first men but who knows, ruled from a different location though. Mouth of the Blackwater taken into Kingdom of House Justman following Andal Invasion, so safe to say House Hook fell to the Andal Invaders.

Now House Fisher is said to rule for the Misty Isle, and the only Isle (Island) shrouded in mist i can think of is the God's Eye. So maybe these are the Green Kings of the God's Eye? or maybe not. House Fisher said to have been ended by the Iron Born or the Storm Kings. Before Qhored Hoares time by roughly 300 years?

House Blackwood would definitely have ruled after Brackens though as they come from the North and should only pop up in the south after the Starks have kicked them out of their seat in the North at the Wolf's Wood. The Blackwoods say this happened 500 years before the Andal Arrival, while True Histories state it was 1000 years before. Given that the Andals seem to have invaded the Riverlands just over 1000 years ago for sure, that the Blackwoods came south roughly 1500-2000 years ago at the earliest.

So through the Houses of the Riverlands we can see the time lines all roughly lining up so far, with out giving exact dates to anything as 1000 years told probably wasn't exactly 1000 years and could have been 1200 or 800, quite a large window. 

_________________________________________House Arryn and the Andal Invasion of the Vale____________________________________________________________________

So the Andal Invasion first begins with the invasion of the fingers by Cowyn Corbray, betraying Jon Brighton and Dywen Shell to become Lord of the Fingers

Next we have King Osgood Shet III being betrayed by Ser Gerold Grafton in Gulltown after helping Osgood to defeat Yorwyck Royce VI of Runestone and grandfather to Robar Royce the II who fought Artys Arryn and King Qyle Corbray of the Fingers. Qyle may have been the son or grandson to Cowyn. 

The Andal Invasion of the fingers likely happening around 2500-2300 years ago at the latest, along with the building of the Wolfs Den with in that time in the North as a response to these invasions. Theon Stark happening likely right before Jon Stark built the Wolf's Den. So lets construct another genealogy tree based on what we're told. 

                           Ser Gerold Graffton/Osgood Shet III        vs            Yorwyck Royce

                                                                                                             (Unknown Royce descendant, son of Yorwyck, father of Robar II)

Qyle Corbray/ Ser Artys Arryn 1st Arryn King.-                        vs                              Robar II Royce of Runestone. 

2nd King- Son of Artys Arryn.

3rd king- Unknown (possible time of Alyssa Arryn and murder of main Arryn House members.)

4th King- Roland I Arryn- Grandson to Artys I. Succeeded by his son. 

5th king- Unknown son of Roland

6th King- Unknown grandson of Roland?

7th King- Roland II- Great Grandson to Roland I. Faced Tristifer Mudd IV of the Riverlands who's possible son Tristifer V Mudd was the last Mudd King killed by the Andal Invaders of the Riverlands in roughly at least 1000 years ago or more. 

*Edit- House Mudd ending with Andal Invasion and Tristifer IV and V being possibly only a few generations apart, combined with the fact the House Justman is ended 300 years later by Qhored Hoare, a Driftwood King at the Height of Ironborn expansion lines up with seeing the Ironborn taking Bear Island around this time (Harrag Hoare vs Theon Stark), attacking the Reach, Arbor, and Old Town all around this time along with Fair Isle in the Westerlands. Which brings me back to Garth VI the Morning Star (- Died in Battle against the Iron Born.) at the top/beginning of this thread. 

So again, we can see that though the dates are never exact, everything still falls under the same rough time windows. 

Now again i mention the fact that Alyssa Arryn is a member of House Arryn and thus cannot be here until Artys Arryn obviously becomes King. Alyssa Arryn is listed as a figure from the Age of Heroes. So going by this, Artys Arryn's invasion of the Vale, is happening during the Age of Heroes. See above for other info at top for dating the Age of Heroes to after the Long Night. 

So that being the case, Ser Artys Arryn the Falcon Knight, and The Winged Knight from legend of the Age of Heroes, can indeed be one and the same guy, if not father and son. 

 

___________________Rape of the Three sisters and the 1000 years War Across the Water_________________________________________________________________________

Said to have began 1700BC/2000 years ago and lasted for 1000 years, ending roughly in 700BC. 

Again, this falls inline with what we see from across the sea, the Vale, the North, the River Lands, and the Iron Islands. As the Andal Invasion launching from where Braavos would later stand would first land the people sailing across in the North, the Neck and Riverlands, and The Vale. So this should be where we expect to see them first and we do. With the Iron Islands being subdued late in the Invasions. We  will eventually be getting to the Storm Lands, the Reach, and the Westerlands just to round it all out before going east again to delve back further, and line up what's happening with Westeros. 

So before i go further i would like to include a quote helping to give an idea into the Age of Heroes and how long it lasted. 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Iron Islands: Driftwood Crowns

It must not be thought that the ironborn won no victories during these years. Balon V Greyjoy, called Coldwind, destroyed the feeble fleets of the King in the North. Erich V Harlaw retook Fair Isle in his youth, only to lose it again in his old age. His son Harron slew Gareth the Grim of Highgarden beneath the walls of Oldtown. Half a century later, Joron I Blacktyde captured Gyles II Gardener when their fleets clashed off the Misty Islands. After torturing him to death, Joron had his corpse cut into pieces so that he might bait his fishhooks with "a chunk of king." Later in his reign, Joron swept across the Arbor with steel and fire, and supposedly carried off every woman on the island under thirty years of age, thereby earning himself the name Maidensbane, by which he is best remembered.

Yet all these triumphs proved short-lived, along with many of the kings who won them. As the centuries passed, the kingdoms of the green lands grew stronger and the Iron Islands weaker. And late in the Age of Heroes, another crisis weakened and divided the ironborn further still.

Upon the death of King Urragon III Greyiron (Urragon the Bald), his younger sons hurriedly convened a kingsmoot whilst their elder brother Torgon was raiding up the Mander, thinking that one of them would be chosen to wear the driftwood crown. To their dismay, the captains and kings chose Urrathon Goodbrother of Great Wyk instead. The first thing the new king did was command that the sons of the old king be put to death. For that, and for the savage cruelty he oft displayed during his two years as king, Urrathon IV Goodbrother is remembered in history as Badbrother.

Now here we are clearly told that late into the Age of Heroes, the coupe of the Kings moot, which leads to the Blacktydes making the position heriditary, happens. This is when the Vale is being invaded by the Andals as we know it took roughly 1000 years for the Andals to make it to the Iron Islands, and that House Blacktyde ruled for roughly 1000 years. Also note that he's mentioning the Age of Heroes, and the Iron born of this time fighting some of the very same Gardener kings listed above at the start of this thread. I hope a clearer picture is already being painted, but will continue to keep expanding and including other area's and their information.

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

"Me too," Rickon echoed.

"Oh, very well," Luwin muttered. "So long as the kingdoms of the First Men held sway, the Pact endured, all through the Age of Heroes and the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, yet finally there came a time, many centuries later, when other peoples crossed the narrow sea.

"The Andals were the first, a race of tall, fair-haired warriors who came with steel and fire and the seven-pointed star of the new gods painted on their chests. The wars lasted hundreds of years, but in the end the six southron kingdoms all fell before them. Only here, where the King in the North threw back every army that tried to cross the Neck, did the rule of the First Men endure. The Andals burnt out the weirwood groves, hacked down the faces, slaughtered the children where they found them, and everywhere proclaimed the triumph of the Seven over the old gods. So the children fled north—"

 

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

"There was a knight once who couldn't see," Bran said stubbornly, as Ser Rodrik went on below. "Old Nan told me about him. He had a long staff with blades at both ends and he could spin it in his hands and chop two men at once."

"Symeon Star-Eyes," Luwin said as he marked numbers in a book. "When he lost his eyes, he put star sapphires in the empty sockets, or so the singers claim. Bran, that is only a story, like the tales of Florian the Fool. A fable from the Age of Heroes." The maester tsked. "You must put these dreams aside, they will only break your heart."

The mention of dreams reminded him. "I dreamed about the crow again last night. The one with three eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad."

 

Couple more quick quotes illustrating my point. Note also Jons quote about Brandon the Burner and Brandon the Shipwright Think about the crypts of Winterfell and the kings listed. Also, these two had to have happened after Theon Stark sailed to Andalos, who is also listed among the crypts. 

Edited by AlaskanSandman
Edit- Scouring of Lorath and Andals, and the Rhoynish wars. Wolf's Den and the River Lands. The Arryn Kings and Andal Invasion of the Vale.

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One thing off hand it seems to me is to reconcile some facts. Dragons, Knights, Kings Guard, and buildings with round towers. 

Some of these things sound Andal, some sounds Valyrian. Andals are not supposed to be in Weseros and neither are Valyrians. 

Dragons- Is this literal dragons? or metaphorical dragons, Valyrians. 

Could it be possible this isn't either Andals or Valyrians, but a different culture? Possibly remnants of the Empire of the Dawn. Who maybe the Valyrians got the Kings Guard from, along with Knights? Though we're never told of Valyrian Knights, it could be, and thats where the Andals learned it from. 

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21 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So im gonna stop here for now and simply point out that clearly we have dragons and knights in Westeros after the Long Night. 

If you're going to take the singers' version of Serwyn's tale literally, instead of the older recorded legends, then we also have a literal Kingsguard thousands of years before Visenya invented the Kingsguard.

The obvious answer is that the singers have updated the tale and merged it with other tales so it's now as full of anachronisms as many other songs.

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The Kingsguard was invented by Aegon the Conqueror at Visenya's insistence he needed bodyguards.

 

It is also quite possible that calling certain warriors "knights" was a shift in the tales post-Andal invasion and Andalization of Westeros.

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2 minutes ago, falcotron said:

If you're going to take the singers' version of Serwyn's tale literally, instead of the older recorded legends, then we also have a literal Kingsguard thousands of years before Visenya invented the Kingsguard.

The obvious answer is that the singers have updated the tale and merged it with other tales so it's now as full of anachronisms as many other songs.

Well what ive done is take Maester Yandels statement about the Knights and the kings they served and roughly lined them up based on the Kings number and missing kings from that list. 

Then i abridged into that accounts about said people, be it the kings or the knights. 

How any one takes that information is up to them.

It is worth noting though that the tales the singers tell seem much truer than what the Maesters say at times. Take accounts of the Others, Magic, Skin Changers, Wargs, Shadow Demons, Children of the Forest and such. 

Its clear too that the Citidel has been around since these times. 

Oh but they didn't have writing? Then what are the ruins? Its a carved language. Whether it was used to express phonetic sounds or ideas such as Asian and Egyptian writings is irrelevant. It is still a form of writing and documenting accounts. Now translating them may still be hard if you dont speak the language. I would assume any one north of the wall would be more than capable of understanding them. I could be wrong though.

The obvious answer still doesn't account for why you have structures back then with round towers, or so well built to never have cracks. Or did the singers build them to help back their ridiculous songs? 

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10 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

The Kingsguard was invented by Aegon the Conqueror at Visenya's insistence he needed bodyguards.

 

It is also quite possible that calling certain warriors "knights" was a shift in the tales post-Andal invasion and Andalization of Westeros.

Yes that's the obvious given answer we are told. 

How ever, maybe Visenya was merely reinstating an old custom given up after the Valyrians became a Freehold? Maybe they used to have kings. Pretty sure the text in Dany's chapter suggest as much when she see's kings and knights and sorcerers in her dreams/visions. Ill look for the passage to help back the idea if it helps.

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31 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

The Kingsguard was invented by Aegon the Conqueror at Visenya's insistence he needed bodyguards.

 

It is also quite possible that calling certain warriors "knights" was a shift in the tales post-Andal invasion and Andalization of Westeros.

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. 

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Added next, time issue of Lorath and the Scouring of Lorath. This will help along with other clues slowly built up to give us a rough narrative.

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1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. 

That's Geodawnian imagery - the Great Empire of the Dawn and the Gemstone Emperors.

Way before the Valyrians.

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6 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

That's Geodawnian imagery - the Great Empire of the Dawn and the Gemstone Emperors.

Way before the Valyrians.

How do we know this isn't who was in Westeros. The same people said to possibly have taught the arts of dragon riding to the Valyrians before parting the world? 

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I love the idea of learning more about the unknown world. Maybe Westeros will face its own "Doom" and the Andals will flee/ invade another continent... many more stories to come. 

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15 minutes ago, Reisendame said:

I love the idea of learning more about the unknown world. Maybe Westeros will face its own "Doom" and the Andals will flee/ invade another continent... many more stories to come. 

I think some other stories unrelated to ASOIAF but set else where with in that world would be really cool and fun to read. Id definitely check it out :)

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Just now, AlaskanSandman said:

I think some other stories unrelated to ASOIAF but set else where with in that world would be really cool and fun to read. Id definitely check it out :)

Right? I feel like GRRM will prob never expand the world and history- unfortunately. Do you think another writer might take over? Think of all the Star Wars books! The bones of AWOIAF are very meaty. I don't do fan fiction (or know much about it), but there's so much material!

i also haven't read GRRM's other stuff, and I really should. I had a theory that Planetos is Earth in the distant future, or maybe it's an earth-like planet. Wouldn't it be cool to develop it all? 

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Because the show is almost over, I know ASOIAF isn't going this way; however, it would be awesome to have the Westerosi (and free-folk) discover a "New World" that's way more advanced, or find the remnants of a more advanced civilization. AWOIAF was so fascinating because there is SO MUCH that already happened, and no one has a clue. 

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1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

How do we know this isn't who was in Westeros. The same people said to possibly have taught the arts of dragon riding to the Valyrians before parting the world? 

The Great Empire of the Dawn turned into the Golden Empire of Yi Ti, which is still around today.

The Asshai'i story about people who taught the arts of dragon riding to the Valyrians says they were from the Shadow Lands to the east, not Yi Ti to the west, and also that they're so ancient that no countries had names yet.

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6 minutes ago, falcotron said:

The Great Empire of the Dawn turned into the Golden Empire of Yi Ti, which is still around today.

The Asshai'i story about people who taught the arts of dragon riding to the Valyrians says they were from the Shadow Lands to the east, not Yi Ti to the west, and also that they're so ancient that no countries had names yet.

No, The Great Empire of the Dawn encompassed all the lands east of the Bones. Yi-ti is just a small part of that broken kingdom. Leng and everything north to the shivering sea was a part of the Empire of the Dawn. The Five Forts being directly attributed to the Empire of the Dawn. Asshai and Stygai fall under the lands described as being a part of the Empire of the Dawn. May want to reread that section. That's like saying the Empire of Rome turned into Italy. A lil over simplifying it. So just cause the Empire of Rome came to encompass Egypt, does that mean Egypt turned into Italy also? Or that Egypt's history cant be older than the Empire of Rome? Think about that a moment. 

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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As i attribute the creation of dragons to breeding by a skinchanger breaking the rule of warging and mating, The Empire of the Dawn learning the arts of animal breeding or genetic tampering from some other ancient culture to the east of them is quite possible, with dragons still having their origin in the Empire of the Dawn, who i think collected Wyverns and Firewyrms from Sothoryos and Valyria in their travels.

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10 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

No, The Great Empire of the Dawn encompassed all the lands east of the Bones. Yi-ti is just a small part of that broken kingdom. Leng and everything north to the shivering sea was a part of the Empire of the Dawn. The Five Forts being directly attributed to the Empire of the Dawn. Asshai and Stygai fall under the lands described as being a part of the Empire of the Dawn. May want to reread that section. That's like saying the Empire of Rome turned into Italy. A lil over simplifying it. So just cause the Empire of Rome came to encompass Egypt, does that mean Egypt turned into Italy also? Or that Egypt's history cant be older than the Empire of Rome? Think about that a moment. 

"From the Shivering Sea to the Jade Sea (even including the great and holy isle of Leng)" does not include lands beyond Leng on the far side of the Jade Sea like the Shadow Lands and Ulthos. The Great Empire had to guard their borders against demons from the Grey Waste and the Shadow Lands. Asshai claims to be even older than the Great Empire, and the legendary people from the Shadow Lands are so old that countries were not yet named.

If the Asshai legend were about the Great Empire, it would be about the Great Empire, not about a people from beyond and before the time of the Great Empire.

So, just because the Empire of Rome came to encompass Egypt, does that mean that Roman symbolism implies a connection to a legendary unknown people who lived in Kenya millennia before the Bantu and Nilotic people arrived?

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1 minute ago, falcotron said:

"From the Shivering Sea to the Jade Sea (even including the great and holy isle of Leng)" does not include lands beyond Leng on the far side of the Jade Sea like the Shadow Lands and Ulthos. The Great Empire had to guard their borders against demons from the Grey Waste and the Shadow Lands. Asshai claims to be even older than the Great Empire, and the legendary people from the Shadow Lands are so old that countries were not yet named.

If the Asshai legend were about the Great Empire, it would be about the Great Empire, not about a people from beyond and before the time of the Great Empire.

So, just because the Empire of Rome came to encompass Egypt, does that mean that Roman symbolism implies a connection to a legendary unknown people who lived in Kenya millennia before the Bantu and Nilotic people arrived?

Your assuming the people of Asshai are the original inhabitants before the long night apparently. The text i think makes pretty clear that they're not. It's also made pretty clear that there is no children in Asshai, and that nothing grows in Asshai. 

And what is this? What does this non sense have to do with what i said, or defending what you said? 

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13 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Your assuming the people of Asshai are the original inhabitants before the long night apparently.

I'm not in any way assuming that. Nothing I said has anything to do with the people currently living in Asshai.

13 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And what is this? What does this non sense have to do with what i said, or defending what you said? 

You really can't understand it?

The Roman Empire represents the Great Empire. Italy represents Yi Ti, a smaller country that succeeded the larger one Egypt represents Leng, a country on the edges of that empire. That's all straight out of your metaphor, so you should be with me this far.

Kenya represents the Shadow Lands, a country beyond the edges of the empire.

The people of Kenya thousands of years ago represent the legendary people of the Shadow Lands from before the Great Empire existed.

I think the part you may be confused by is the part about Roman symbolism not implying a connection to those ancient people in Kenya.

If you use the metaphor, that's the same as Golden Empire symbolism not implying a connection to those ancient people in the Shadow Lands.

Which has to do with what you said, because what you said was that Great Empire symbolism implies a connection to the ancient people in the Shadow Lands.

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