AlaskanSandman

Time- Accounts, inconsistencies, and thoughts.

41 posts in this topic

1 minute ago, falcotron said:

I'm not in any way assuming that. Nothing I said has anything to do with the people currently living in Asshai.

You really can't understand it?

The Roman Empire represents the Great Empire. Italy represents Yi Ti, a smaller country that succeeded the larger one Egypt represents Leng, a country on the edges of that empire. That's all straight out of your metaphor, so you should be with me this far.

Kenya represents the Shadow Lands, a country beyond the edges of the empire.

The people of Kenya thousands of years ago represent the legendary people of the Shadow Lands from before the Great Empire existed.

I think the part you may be confused by is the part about Roman symbolism not implying a connection to those ancient people in Kenya.

If you use the metaphor, that's the same as Golden Empire symbolism not implying a connection to those ancient people in the Shadow Lands.

Which has to do with what you said, because what you said was that Great Empire symbolism implies a connection to the ancient people in the Shadow Lands.

Pretty sure that's who the stories are coming from, the people of Asshai, after the long night. I could be wrong but pretty positive.

And oh ok, gotcha haha sorry. Well the symbolism part definitely threw me off and still does and i dont mention any Great Empire of the Dawn symbolism. Just simply that the text states that all those lands belonged to the Empire of the Dawn prior to the Long Night. The the original peoples of Asshai were the Empire of the Dawn peoples most likely. Anything East of their would be a new civilization yes. Asshai though still seems to be described as part of said Empire, acting like Qarth as a trading post between West and East. 

 

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33 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Pretty sure that's who the stories are coming from, the people of Asshai, after the long night. I could be wrong but pretty positive.

Well, most of what we hear about Asshai comes from books allegedly older than Valyria. Which is still after the Long Night (obviously, since the biggest thing we hear is the story of Azor Ahai), but I don't think the same people have been there 5000 years either.

But whether the stories are from the current inhabitants or the older books, they're not stories about themselves, they're stories about their city, the surrounding lands, etc., and whoever lived there long ago.

Sure, they could be completely wrong about things like the origin of their city. But, in the same way, the Yi Tish could be completely wrong about things like the origin of their empire. The only thing we have to go on is the legends and records and stories we're told. 

33 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And oh ok, gotcha haha sorry. Well the symbolism part definitely threw me off and still does and i dont mention any Great Empire of the Dawn symbolism.

Responding to Kytheros saying "That's Geodawnian imagery - the Great Empire of the Dawn and the Gemstone Emperors", you say "How do we know this isn't who was in Westeros. The same people said to possibly have taught the arts of dragon riding to the Valyrians before parting the world?" That's what I responded to.

If your connection isn't about Great Empire imagery, then your response has nothing to do with the post you quoted and responded to, so I don't even know what we're talking about.

38 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Just simply that the text states that all those lands belonged to the Empire of the Dawn prior to the Long Night. The the original peoples of Asshai were the Empire of the Dawn peoples most likely. Anything East of their would be a new civilization yes.

But the text doesn't state that, the text states that the Empire of the Dawn went as far as Leng. And if the original people of Asshai were Empire of the Dawn people, who built the city that's older than the Empire of the Dawn? And how could the legendary people of the Shadow Lands be so old that they had no name if they're just Empire of the Dawn people, who have a name?

38 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Asshai though still seems to be described as part of said Empire, acting like Qarth as a trading post between West and East. 

That's a great comparison.

Qarth isn't part of the lands that it trades with to the west and the east, and the Qaathi kingdom that it's the last remnant of wasn't either.

Asshai isn't part of the lands to its west or any presumed lands to its east today, and there's no reason to believe its ancestral kingdom was either.

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26 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Well, most of what we hear about Asshai comes from books allegedly older than Valyria. Which is still after the Long Night (obviously, since the biggest thing we hear is the story of Azor Ahai), but I don't think the same people have been there 5000 years either.

But whether the stories are from the current inhabitants or the older books, they're not stories about themselves, they're stories about their city, the surrounding lands, etc., and whoever lived there long ago.

Sure, they could be completely wrong about things like the origin of their city. But, in the same way, the Yi Tish could be completely wrong about things like the origin of their empire. The only thing we have to go on is the legends and records and stories we're told. 

Responding to Kytheros saying "That's Geodawnian imagery - the Great Empire of the Dawn and the Gemstone Emperors", you say "How do we know this isn't who was in Westeros. The same people said to possibly have taught the arts of dragon riding to the Valyrians before parting the world?" That's what I responded to.

If your connection isn't about Great Empire imagery, then your response has nothing to do with the post you quoted and responded to, so I don't even know what we're talking about.

But the text doesn't state that, the text states that the Empire of the Dawn went as far as Leng. And if the original people of Asshai were Empire of the Dawn people, who built the city that's older than the Empire of the Dawn? And how could the legendary people of the Shadow Lands be so old that they had no name if they're just Empire of the Dawn people, who have a name?

That's a great comparison.

Qarth isn't part of the lands that it trades with to the west and the east, and the Qaathi kingdom that it's the last remnant of wasn't either.

Asshai isn't part of the lands to its west or any presumed lands to its east today, and there's no reason to believe its ancestral kingdom was either.

They suggested it was Empire of the Dawn imagery in defense that Valyria never had kings who may have had a kings guard that Visenya could have been getting her idea from, rather than coming up with it her self as i suggest may be the case at hand. I then go on to use the quote to show Dany seeing old kings. Whether they are Valyrian or Empire of the Dawn Kings is up for debate. Since the Empire of the Dawn isn't even mentioned till TWOIAF, it could very well just be Valyrians she's seeing. We dont know for certain, but it keeps my argument valid. :) 

Well i agree that Asshai may have been independent of the Empire of the Dawn, and older that just got assimilated into the Empire of the Dawn after the original inhabitants left or were conquered. This is why i used the Egypt analogy. As to who could have built it? Well judging by what it's made out of and the Sea Stone Chair? Possibly the same aquatic race that begot the Realm of the Fisher Queens and their rulers.? The Deep Ones? I've always like the idea that Asshai was independent at one time and far older. I like to think that it was originally built under water, and emerged from the water like a reverse Atlantis when the sea levels dropped and the Realms of the Fisher Queen's shrank away to the Dothraki Sea. But as that all goes past the Long Night and what our story is mostly about, i dont think we'll learn much more than that or about the Deep Ones vs the Old Ones. I love the Hp Love craft nod though and the hint at something deeper and darker. 

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12 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well i agree that Asshai may have been independent of the Empire of the Dawn, and older that just got assimilated into the Empire of the Dawn after the original inhabitants left or were conquered.

But there's no evidence Asshai was ever part of the Empire of the Dawn. And, even if it were, that's still after the legendary people who were so old they have no name who later brought dragons and then vanished from history. Those people are not Great Empire people.

12 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

As to who could have built it? Well judging by what it's made out of and the Sea Stone Chair?

A connection to an ancient race for Asshai is interesting. But if so, I think it may be some other ancient race than the Deep Ones. All we really have to go on is the black stone and the giant size. But there are clearly multiple prehuman civilizations on Planetos (Children, Ifeqevron, giants, merlings, Mazemakers …), not just Deep Ones, and they're not all connected, and more than one of them use one of the two different kinds of black stone.

12 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Possibly the same aquatic race that begot the Realm of the Fisher Queens and their rulers.?

Where do you get a connection between Fisher Queens and Deep Ones? They did have a realm along the coasts, and a floating palace, but most civilizations in the world are coastal—and mostly on oceans, not lakes—and they're not all connected to Deep Ones. Is there anything about any construction similar to Hightower, the Seastone Chair, etc. that I've missed?

Anyway, I think GRRM is more in line with the Lovecraft/Howard weird tales idea of human civilization arising and then starting to interact with these alien civilizations to the Von Daniken/Doctor Who idea that humans are just a bunch of idiots who learned everything from aliens. If so, those original human civilizations had to start somewhere, and I think the Fisher Queens (along with the Great Empire) are a good candidate. But obviously if I've missed something, that speculation would be wrong.

12 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I like to think that it was originally built under water, and emerged from the water like a reverse Atlantis when the sea levels dropped

There's a few reverse Atlantises in the Lovecraft circle weird tales. One of them might be the first story that referenced the great black stones (which for a while became a signal that one writer was playing in another's playground because of the number of references to and from "The Black Stone"), but I'd have to look it up. It started off with present-day undersea divers discovering a city many thousands of years old, and finding that alternating layers were built by undersea and aboveground (and, at one point, underground) civilizations including Deep Ones, Voormis, Hyperborean proto-humans, Atlantean humans, and Hyborean humans, and… I can't remember what happened. It may be the one where they discover a temple to Nyarlathotep and accidentally activate a portal that brings his servants and they learn the unpleasant way why the city keeps getting abandoned even when it's not sinking into the sea or rising back up.

 

12 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

But as that all goes past the Long Night and what our story is mostly about, i dont think we'll learn much more than that or about the Deep Ones vs the Old Ones. I love the Hp Love craft nod though and the hint at something deeper and darker. 

Well, yeah, all of this stuff is past the Long Night, and, more importantly, I'm pretty sure it's all just flavor stuff that GRRM (and in some cases even Elio and Linda) invented because world building is fun and making Lovecraft circle references is fun. I don't expect to see the Winged Men any more than I expect to see the founders of Asshai, even if the Winged Men are supposedly still around today.

But I think that the same thing is true for the Empire of the Dawn, the legendary people from the Shadow Lands, and all kinds of other things people want to connect to the story. They're just extra flavor. The central mysteries in ASoIaF aren't going to be answered with something that only makes sense if you've pored over WoIaF.

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14 minutes ago, falcotron said:

But there's no evidence Asshai was ever part of the Empire of the Dawn. And, even if it were, that's still after the legendary people who were so old they have no name who later brought dragons and then vanished from history. Those people are not Great Empire people.

A connection to an ancient race for Asshai is interesting. But if so, I think it may be some other ancient race than the Deep Ones. All we really have to go on is the black stone and the giant size. But there are clearly multiple prehuman civilizations on Planetos (Children, Ifeqevron, giants, merlings, Mazemakers …), not just Deep Ones, and they're not all connected, and more than one of them use one of the two different kinds of black stone.

Where do you get a connection between Fisher Queens and Deep Ones? They did have a realm along the coasts, and a floating palace, but most civilizations in the world are coastal—and mostly on oceans, not lakes—and they're not all connected to Deep Ones. Is there anything about any construction similar to Hightower, the Seastone Chair, etc. that I've missed?

Anyway, I think GRRM is more in line with the Lovecraft/Howard weird tales idea of human civilization arising and then starting to interact with these alien civilizations to the Von Daniken/Doctor Who idea that humans are just a bunch of idiots who learned everything from aliens. If so, those original human civilizations had to start somewhere, and I think the Fisher Queens (along with the Great Empire) are a good candidate. But obviously if I've missed something, that speculation would be wrong.

There's a few reverse Atlantises in the Lovecraft circle weird tales. One of them might be the first story that referenced the great black stones (which for a while became a signal that one writer was playing in another's playground because of the number of references to and from "The Black Stone"), but I'd have to look it up. It started off with present-day undersea divers discovering a city many thousands of years old, and finding that alternating layers were built by undersea and aboveground (and, at one point, underground) civilizations including Deep Ones, Voormis, Hyperborean proto-humans, Atlantean humans, and Hyborean humans, and… I can't remember what happened. It may be the one where they discover a temple to Nyarlathotep and accidentally activate a portal that brings his servants and they learn the unpleasant way why the city keeps getting abandoned even when it's not sinking into the sea or rising back up.

 

Well, yeah, all of this stuff is past the Long Night, and, more importantly, I'm pretty sure it's all just flavor stuff that GRRM (and in some cases even Elio and Linda) invented because world building is fun and making Lovecraft circle references is fun. I don't expect to see the Winged Men any more than I expect to see the founders of Asshai, even if the Winged Men are supposedly still around today.

But I think that the same thing is true for the Empire of the Dawn, the legendary people from the Shadow Lands, and all kinds of other things people want to connect to the story. They're just extra flavor. The central mysteries in ASoIaF aren't going to be answered with something that only makes sense if you've pored over WoIaF.

Well no hard evidence but plenty of circumstantial evidence.

Why Fisher Queens to the Deep Ones? Well first let me say on a cosmic scale, i place the Empire of the Dawn people and People of the Fisher Queen's realm to be lower than that of The Deep ones or Old Ones which sounds Love Craftian and tied to cosmic powers. That being said, why the Deep Ones and not Old Ones, because when mentioning the sea creatures or such, the Deep Ones are brought up in the books. The Old Ones being mentioned to be deep in the caves of Leng. Just speculation and such.

As far as the ancient past and legends and myths and such, a lil off topic as my goal in this thread is to work through the time issues. All though i do really like conversations and speculating on the past. 

My End Game theory has nothing to do with anything outside of ASOIAF novels, and has little to do with most of the legends and myths and more to do with the Others and how they were created and what they want and how they plan to achieve that.

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This is all alot of information, so i apologize for any typos that have made it in and will try to fix or correct any.

So far the rough narrative is the Andals leaving Essos roughly 2800 years ago and ending roughly 1800 years ago. With the Andal migration still taking place within Westeros after this time, ending may 700-1000 years ago with the Andals taking the Iron Islands. 

Beginning in the Vale and the North first during the age of Heroes 3000 years ago roughly as the Driftwood Kings are in the peak of their power, right before House Blacktyde make it hereditary and ruling roughly 1000 years untill the Andals finally make there way to the Iron Islands roughly 1000 years ago or less, 700 years before Aegon's conquest or less.

The Wolfs Den being created around the start of the Invasions around the times of Jon Stark and Theon Stark, and passing hands for roughly 1000 years till around roughly 1000 years before Aegons conquest or less. When it passes hands to House Manderly. 

The Rape of the Three sisters, and The Arryn Kings initial interactions all helping to line this up. 

This would also mean that Nymeria arrives in Dorne hot on the heels of the Andal Invasion of Westeros. 

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32 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

This is all alot of information, so i apologize for any typos that have made it in and will try to fix or correct any.

So far the rough narrative is the Andals leaving Essos roughly 2800 years ago and ending roughly 1800 years ago. With the Andal migration still taking place within Westeros after this time, ending may 700-1000 years ago with the Andals taking the Iron Islands. 

Beginning in the Vale and the North first during the age of Heroes 3000 years ago roughly as the Driftwood Kings are in the peak of their power, right before House Blacktyde make it hereditary and ruling roughly 1000 years untill the Andals finally make there way to the Iron Islands roughly 1000 years ago or less, 700 years before Aegon's conquest or less.

The Wolfs Den being created around the start of the Invasions around the times of Jon Stark and Theon Stark, and passing hands for roughly 1000 years till around roughly 1000 years before Aegons conquest or less. When it passes hands to House Manderly. 

The Rape of the Three sisters, and The Arryn Kings initial interactions all helping to line this up. 

This would also mean that Nymeria arrives in Dorne hot on the heels of the Andal Invasion of Westeros. 

You are establishing the start of the andal migration to Westeros at the time of the Scouring of Lorath. I don't understand why you are linking these two together.

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11 hours ago, Tucu said:

You are establishing the start of the andal migration to Westeros at the time of the Scouring of Lorath. I don't understand why you are linking these two together.

By this rough calculations, the Andal Invasion couldn't have began really till roughly 2500BC or 2800 years ago. Ending with the Valyrians and Scouring of Lorath in 1536BC.

Ill be including more so people can fully track the movements of the Andals. The text states that the Andals were not from Andalos, the area around Lorath and Norvos. They were in Norvos till being driven North, originating in the grass lands around the Silver Sea, where the first men may have come from to. 

So this is meant to show and date when the Andals migrated in the area of Andalos, and when they were expelled from Andalos for good. Ending any possible Invasions. As the Andals weren't in the lands up till then, the Invasions couldn't have began before then. So that is the Window in which the Andals arrived in Andalos from the South East and crossed the Narrow Sea to The Vale and Westeros. 

The World of Ice and Fire - Beyond the Free Cities: The Grasslands

 "Some maesters believe that the First Men originated here before beginning the long westward migration that took them across the Arm of Dorne to Westeros. The Andals, too, may have arisen in the fertile fields south of the Silver Sea."

The Andals who learned the arts of working Steel from the Rhoynar as they passed east and north to Andalos. 

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6 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

By this rough calculations, the Andal Invasion couldn't have began really till roughly 2500BC or 2800 years ago. Ending with the Valyrians and Scouring of Lorath in 1536BC.

Ill be including more so people can fully track the movements of the Andals. The text states that the Andals were not from Andalos, the area around Lorath and Norvos. They were in Norvos till being driven North, originating in the grass lands around the Silver Sea, where the first men may have come from to. 

So this is meant to show and date when the Andals migrated in the area of Andalos, and when they were expelled from Andalos for good. Ending any possible Invasions. As the Andals weren't in the lands up till then, the Invasions couldn't have began before then. So that is the Window in which the Andals arrived in Andalos from the South East and crossed the Narrow Sea to The Vale and Westeros. 

The World of Ice and Fire - Beyond the Free Cities: The Grasslands

 "Some maesters believe that the First Men originated here before beginning the long westward migration that took them across the Arm of Dorne to Westeros. The Andals, too, may have arisen in the fertile fields south of the Silver Sea."

The Andals who learned the arts of working Steel from the Rhoynar as they passed east and north to Andalos. 

Lorath is an island far in the north of Essos . The Andal controlled region extended at least as far south as Myr. The world book tells us that Myr was founded over an Andal town. It is highly likely that the pressure on the Andals by the Valyrians started in the south an unknown number of years before the Scouring of Lorath.

Edited by Tucu

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2 hours ago, Tucu said:

Lorath is an island far in the north of Essos . The Andal controlled region extended at least as far south as Myr. The world book tells us that Myr was founded over an Andal town. It is highly likely that the pressure on the Andals by the Valyrians started in the south an unknown number of years before the Scouring of Lorath.

Yes, and the Andals were in Pentos too. Ill be covering that all more as i circle back to the east. 

Just cause they were there isn't the whole point, when they were is what were aiming to roughly pinpoint.

Yes something drove them west and north from the grass lands. The Valyrians were the ones we know for sure made them flee north and then west to Westeros. What drove them initially from the Grass lands may have been Valyria, but more than likely not.

That will be covered under Huzhor Amai and the Sarnori as we take the Andals and Andal legends back to their roots of origin in the grass lands that were the Silver Sea. Mother Mountain wasn't a mountain then. Ill likely be providing a link to a map at some point to fully illustrate the geography of the times and the migratory routes of the first men, Andals, and the Rhoynar. 

Think Hugor of the Hill, first Andal king of legend.

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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25 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yes, and the Andals were in Pentos too. Ill be covering that all more as i circle back to the east. 

Just cause they were there isn't the whole point, when they were is what were aiming to roughly pinpoint.

Yes something drove them west and north from the grass lands. The Valyrians were the ones we know for sure made them flee north and then west to Westeros. What drove them initially from the Grass lands may have been Valyria, but more than likely not.

That will be covered under Huzhor Amai and the Sarnori as we take the Andals and Andal legends back to their roots of origin in the grass lands that were the Silver Sea. Mother Mountain wasn't a mountain then. Ill likely be providing a link to a map at some point to fully illustrate the geography of the times and the migratory routes of the first men, Andals, and the Rhoynar. 

Think Hugor of the Hill, first Andal king of legend.

But you are trying to use one specific date about the fall of one Andal kingdom (not the first or the last) to pinpoint the date of a wave of migrations. This doesn't make much sense to me.

Another error in your OP, Qarlon the Great didn't rule for a thousand years. The world book tells us that the Andals in the Lothari island fought between themselves for a thousands years until Qarlon the Great  united the islands. Then he extended his kingdom during 20 years of wars, until he faced Norvos and the Valyrian Freehold.

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28 minutes ago, Tucu said:

But you are trying to use one specific date about the fall of one Andal kingdom (not the first or the last) to pinpoint the date of a wave of migrations. This doesn't make much sense to me.

Another error in your OP, Qarlon the Great didn't rule for a thousand years. The world book tells us that the Andals in the Lothari island fought between themselves for a thousands years until Qarlon the Great  united the islands. Then he extended his kingdom during 20 years of wars, until he faced Norvos and the Valyrian Freehold.

Oh, oops. Well yes, Qarlon didn't live for 1000 years, thats just how long the Andals ruled there. Typo

And what first and last Andal Kingdom? That is the last Andal Kingdom as far as we know. Yes they were in Myr, but already pushed out of Myr as the people of Myr today are linked to the Rhoynar. Since the Rhoynar were already controlling the south. 

And no, i use the Andals in Andalos and their flight from it as a launching point to show when they likely started entering Westeros, and ended when the Valyrians wiped them out. Thus ending any possible further migrations. 

I then go on to use dates and accounts from the North, the Vale, the Riverlands, the Iron Islands and the Reach to help back this up. Im not yet to the Westerlands, Stormlands, and Dorne. Forgive me this takes time. From there though we'll be going back to the Andals in Essos and tracing them back wards, showing when they were where, who they displaced, and who displaced them roughly. All leading back to the grass lands. Where ill be touching upon the Rhoynar, Sarnori, Valyria, and Ghis. 

Once again, i apologize for any typos though. :)

Edit- Garris the Grey drove the Hairy men from Norvos but didn't stay. After, is when the Norvosi from Valyria arrive for religious purposes, who then go on to clash with Qarlon. So by this time, Rhoynar are controlling the south. The Andals may have been in Pentos, but i believe this falls under Qarlons territory. 

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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36 minutes ago, Tucu said:

But you are trying to use one specific date about the fall of one Andal kingdom (not the first or the last) to pinpoint the date of a wave of migrations. This doesn't make much sense to me.

Another error in your OP, Qarlon the Great didn't rule for a thousand years. The world book tells us that the Andals in the Lothari island fought between themselves for a thousands years until Qarlon the Great  united the islands. Then he extended his kingdom during 20 years of wars, until he faced Norvos and the Valyrian Freehold.

Break away from that one tiny section and read the rest carefully. Look at the quote from Jon about the Age of Heroes, about Brandon the Burner and the Shipwright. Father and son. Who had to have happened after Theon Stark who sailed to Andalos and made war with the Andals, as the North never had power again at sea after Brandon the Burner. That quote alone from ACOK shows what im trying to illustrate. 

That the Andals invaded during the Age of Heroes, and that it wasn't that long ago. Martin said it early. All TWOIAF does it help paint the picture since it's hard to squeeze alllll these hints and clues in the main body of text that is ASOIAF.

Im not done yet though so give me time hahah :)

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8 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Oh, oops. Well yes, Qarlon didn't live for 1000 years, thats just how long the Andals ruled there. Typo

And what first and last Andal Kingdom? That is the last Andal Kingdom as far as we know. Yes they were in Myr, but already pushed out of Myr as the people of Myr today are linked to the Rhoynar. Since the Rhoynar were already controlling the south. 

And no, i use the Andals in Andalos and their flight from it as a launching point to show when they likely started entering Westeros, and ended when the Valyrians wiped them out. Thus ending any possible further migrations. 

I then go on to use dates and accounts from the North, the Vale, the Riverlands, the Iron Islands and the Reach to help back this up. Im not yet to the Westerlands, Stormlands, and Dorne. Forgive me this takes time. From there though we'll be going back to the Andals in Essos and tracing them back wards, showing when they were where, who they displaced, and who displaced them roughly. All leading back to the grass lands. Where ill be touching upon the Rhoynar, Sarnori, Valyria, and Ghis. 

Once again, i apologize for any typos though. :)

We are told that Qarlon dreamed of becoming King of All the Andals, but his expansion towards the south caused a war with Valyria. Given that he never became King of All the Andals and that the Valyrians only burned Lorath, it is safe to assume that his' was not the last Andal kingdom in Essos.

More importantly, the migration pressure didn't start with the Lorath incident. It probably started a lot earlier when Valyria started expanding in Andal southern frontier (around Myr). There is no reason why the settling of Lorath and the Vale cannot be attributed to the same pressure.

 

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17 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Break away from that one tiny section and read the rest carefully. Look at the quote from Jon about the Age of Heroes, about Brandon the Burner and the Shipwright. Father and son. Who had to have happened after Theon Stark who sailed to Andalos and made war with the Andals, as the North never had power again at sea after Brandon the Burner. That quote alone from ACOK shows what im trying to illustrate. 

That the Andals invaded during the Age of Heroes, and that it wasn't that long ago. Martin said it early. All TWOIAF does it help paint the picture since it's hard to squeeze alllll these hints and clues in the main body of text that is ASOIAF.

Im not done yet though so give me time hahah :)

Are you referring to the presence of knight imagery on the Age of Heroes characters? That could easily be explained by merging of legends and retconning. For a real world example take Saint George; in western Europe he is usually represented as a medieval knight fighting a dragon. However he was a Roman soldier of greek origin.

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7 minutes ago, Tucu said:

We are told that Qarlon dreamed of becoming King of All the Andals, but his expansion towards the south caused a war with Valyria. Given that he never became King of All the Andals and that the Valyrians only burned Lorath, it is safe to assume that his' was not the last Andal kingdom in Essos.

More importantly, the migration pressure didn't start with the Lorath incident. It probably started a lot earlier when Valyria started expanding in Andal southern frontier (around Myr). There is no reason why the settling of Lorath and the Vale cannot be attributed to the same pressure.

 

Wiki- cause im lazy but still wanna answer you.

The original settlers of Norvos are unknown, but they were not Rhoynar. Some theorize they were mazemakers or Ibbenese, but most believe they were Andals. Hairy men out of the east are said to have driven these original villagers away, but these hairy men were eventually expelled by Prince Garris of Ny Sar. The Rhoynar did not remain, however, preferring instead the warmer lower Rhoyne.[1]

Well yes, he wanted to expand south, as the text says, and tried to take Norvos, already under the controll of Valyrians. Hence Valyria coming to their call and burning Qarlton. As the passage above makes clear, the Andals may once have been in Norvos, but the Hairy men since displaced them, who were in turn displaced by the Rhoynar who did not stay. So Valyrian pressure or what ever had already pushed the Andals North and out of there for good. 

Wiki- Again.

The origins of Myr are disputed. There is some evidence of the vicinity having been inhabited by a now-vanished people during the Dawn Age and the Long Night. Modern Myr was founded by merchant adventurers from the Valyrian Freehold after they conquered a walled Andal town.[3] 

Some maesters believe Myrmen are descended from the Rhoynar, as many of the Myrmen share their olive skin and dark hair, but this theory is disputed.

So given the Andals have already been pushed north out of Norvos, much further North than Myr. The Incidents of Myr and Myr's founding is likely older. We shall see though as we narrow down the events. Again, give me time as there are manyyyy events and areas we must look at to corroborate the Andal migrations. We shall see more as we look at the Crown Lands more, The Strom Lands, and Dorne, to try to understand Andal Migration into these lands. We must also look at Pentos and other places. Again, this is a large picture we're painting. 

Maybe they launched from Myr too by some chance. If so, we shall find it. Most text seems to point to them landing in the Vale and the North first though, and this would line up with the Andals being in the North East of Essos in Andalos. Again, we shall see though :)

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14 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Are you referring to the presence of knight imagery on the Age of Heroes characters? That could easily be explained by merging of legends and retconning. For a real world example take Saint George; in western Europe he is usually represented as a medieval knight fighting a dragon. However he was a Roman soldier of greek origin.

Your kidding me right? Where in that quote from Jon does it mention anything about Knights? 

That quote simply uses what Jon say's about them being in the Age of Heroes, and what we know about them in union with what we know about Theon Stark and the early Andal Invasions. Nothing about knights in there or mentioned by me in that response. 

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30 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Your kidding me right? Where in that quote from Jon does it mention anything about Knights? 

That quote simply uses what Jon say's about them being in the Age of Heroes, and what we know about them in union with what we know about Theon Stark and the early Andal Invasions. Nothing about knights in there or mentioned by me in that response. 

Sorry, but you are mixing up so many things that is very hard to follow you.

Are you referring to this bit:

Quote

Which Brandon was this supposed to be? Brandon the Builder lived in the Age of Heroes, thousands of years before Bael. There was Brandon the Burner and his father Brandon the Shipwright.

In that quote, Jon never tells us that Brandon the Burner and Brandon the Shipwright lived in the Age of Heroes. Only that Brandon the Builder did.

Edit:I originally thought that you were referring to his chat between Sam and Jon:

Quote

The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later. There are archmaesters at the Citadel who question all of it. Those old histories are full of kings who reigned for hundreds of years, and knights riding around a thousand years before there were knights. You know the tales, Brandon the Builder, Symeon Star-Eyes, Night's King

 

Edited by Tucu

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26 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Sorry, but you are mixing up so many things that is very hard to follow you.

Are you referring to this bit:

In that quote, Jon never tells us that Brandon the Burner and Brandon the Shipwright lived in the Age of Heroes. Only that Brandon the Builder did.

Edit:I originally thought that you were referring to his chat between Sam and Jon:

 

Ooopss! Good catch!! Reading and typing so much i read the wrong Brandon as being in the Age of Heroes. Ill have to remove that specific quote hahaha grrr

Yes indeed, soooo many things to cover it's hard to tell the story. 

If i start in the past and work forward, ill never get past debates about the myths and legends from the Age of Heroes to ever build forward to the other needed pieces. 

If i start in the present and work backwards only, ill never get to explaining some things either. It's daunting to say the least and i may not be the best person to write this haha But maybe i can construct enough some one else can write something better after having looked it all over and changed what they wanted or what not. This is my best attempt though :D

Some of the connecting people essentially are Theon Stark, Jon Stark, Harras Hoare, Qhored Hoare, King Roland II Arryn, Gareth the Grim Gardener, and Harron Harlaw are some of the main people used in accordance with the Rape of the Three Sisters and War Across the Waters, Arrival of House Arryn and placement of Alyssa Arryn, Andal Invasion of North and Vale, along with Driftwood Kings and IronKings switch over as some of the basic connective people and conflicts i use to help pinpoint some of these events as being both during the Andal Invasion and during the Age of Heroes. Using the Scouring of Lorath and eventually more of Essos's events to help back this all up. 

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So i may do a separate thread for this to try to stream line some of this to be better digestible, i figured i should drop it here first since it's part of this over all thread trying to show the multiple accounts to help show the andal invasion.

 

                        Dorian Hightower ===== Andal Princess during andal invasion of the reach.

                                                         I

                                                   Unknown son

                                                        I

                                          Lord Triston who built the Starry Sept in honor of Septon Robison who had raised him and ruled Old Town in his stead

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - Prologue

Yet somehow his feet turned back toward the Citadel.
When the first shaft of sunlight broke through the clouds to the east, morning bells began to peal from the Sailor's Sept down by the harbor. The Lord's Sept joined in a moment later, then the Seven Shrines from their gardens across the Honeywine, and finally the Starry Sept that had been the seat of the High Septon for a thousand years before Aegon landed at King's Landing. They made a mighty music. Though not so sweet as one small nightingale.

 

Thats 1300 years ago.

So this along with the Scouring of Lorath and exit of the Andals from Essos, approximated with their arrival, combined with Northern acivities (Theon and Jon Stark), and Vale activities (7th Arryn King killing the 2nd to Last of the Mudd Kings), combined with this above clue, helps to place the Andals in Westeros roughly 2000 years ago. 

Which aligns with Allysa Arryn being of the Age of Heroes as the she can't have been there till the Arryn's arrive. There is no debate about her placement, just the Falcon/Winged Knight. 

Yet, by all clues provided. The Winged Knight was the Falcon Knight who had invaded Westeros roughly 2000 years ago during the Age of Heroes. 

A time when the Gardener Kings (Targaryens) had dragons and faced off against the Andal Invaders the-og-dance. The Gardener Kings who link back to Garth the Greenwalrus-men-and-antler-men-the-old-way-and-the-new/, the fiery antlered stag lion looking dragon first man king/ The grey King, and ancestor to the Lion of Night that is the pakhangba.

 

 

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